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View Poll Results: Your opinion on the mayor's interview, and his candor... | |||
He's being over the top, and it's warranted and maybe needed for what's happening. It's great. | 37 | 35.58% | |
*shrug* for his approach, but his message is important, and his "realness" is important. I like it. | 36 | 34.62% | |
I don't have an opinion / didn't stir me one way or the other. | 6 | 5.77% | |
Regardless of the "realness", I think he needs to be a strong leader. I don't like it. | 8 | 7.69% | |
His behavior was uncalled for, unprofessional, and isn't what his people need right now. I hate it. | 17 | 16.35% | |
Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll |
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09-03-2005, 08:08 AM | #41 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Connecticut
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I think there is a national consensus that the federal response continues to be slow and confused. Bush is a very appealing target for this frustration -- it comes with the office -- but I reluctantly admit my belief that the problem reflects national attitudes towards our second class citizens (i.e. those not white, not wealthy). The ambivalence of this forum reflects this.
I think it's a dodge to blame this on right-wing politicians. I sadly think the racism and classism is endemic to the population of the US in general, including Democrats who have fewer and fewer ties to the working poor of America. I'm a Democrat, and it pains me to say it, but it's hard to deny the failings we see in New Orleans.
__________________
less I say, smarter I am |
09-03-2005, 08:18 AM | #42 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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After reading <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2005090102413.html">this article in the Washington Post</a>, my opinion of the guy has changed a lot.
Works out Ray Nagin is a first-time mayor, a political newcomer. He was an executive with Cox Communications, born and raised in New Orleans. He was elected in 2002 on a promise to clean up corruption. This guy has inherited this disaster from his forbears. I want him speaking for his people--which is what he was doing on that radio interview. He's got no political agenda or grooming, he's just got the work there is in front of him. Here's the article: Quote:
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09-03-2005, 08:28 AM | #43 (permalink) | |
Omnipotent Ruler Of The Tiny Universe In My Mind
Location: Oreegawn
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That one stings a bit. I like this guy, especially after the article ratbastid posted.
__________________
Words of Wisdom: If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane. |
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09-03-2005, 11:58 AM | #44 (permalink) |
I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot!
Location: Upper Michigan
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I have mixed feelings about his outburst. I do appreciate how he manages to convey his frustration and anger for the people of his city. I wonder somewhat if there wasn't something that could have been done on his part prior to the hurricane. I heard predictions that it was going to hit their city before people were trapped there. Yet I am surprised that the people were bussed to a facility where no one had planned to provide food and water. It's a sad situation all around.
Personally I have one question (not intended to threadjack) - Why would people choose to live in a city that has such a tenuous hold on land that they need multiple levees to hold back the ocean. I understand the necessity for some countries but here in the United States there are much cheaper places to live than in New Orleans and much safer places to live. Why do people do it?
__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma. |
09-03-2005, 06:20 PM | #45 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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Quote:
Besides, it had always been below sea level, and it had never been a serious problem before right? |
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09-03-2005, 08:14 PM | #46 (permalink) | |
Free Mars!
Location: I dunno, there's white people around me saying "eh" all the time
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Quote:
I suppose the better question would be this, How did the Dutch learn to survive?
__________________
Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war |
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09-04-2005, 05:17 AM | #48 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Somewhere in East Texas
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This racial spin that is starting to heat up is really sickening to watch. The Mayor is black, yet he failed the citizens of New Orleans that needed him most, the poor, the elderly, the children, and the many thousands who did NOT have the means to evacuate even if they wanted to. Now the media and many prominent people in the black community are trying to say race was was the reason relief was so slow in coming. That's not just crazy, but ignorant. What about all those buses (school) buses camptured on film that were flooded, parked. The Mayor supposedly represents ALL the citizens, yet he barely managed the task of ordering an evacuation. He should have mobilized every Transit Bus, every school bus, and any other buses in the city in a massive effort to move those that could not move themselves out of harms way. What was the Mayor thinking? Were all these folks gonna just snap their fingers and everything was gonna be alright? The facts will all come out afterwards, but it isn't helping matters when morons like Kanye West go on TV (Red Cross Telethon) and make ignorant statements like "George Bush doesn't care about Black people", etc... What about the Mayor of New Orleans? He's black...is he racist? That's BS and everybody knows it. Kanye West too shooses to shoot off his mouth, when in fact could have been doing something as well before hand, but instead he chose to flash his money, stroke his ego, and party with the MTV crowd when he could have been trying to connect with the very people he says are being ignored. As for the looting going on in New Orleans.... It's illegal, but because of the magnitude of the situation, I can see where looking the other way is appropriate when it is food, water, clothing, or other NECESSITIES being stolen. Until relief arrived... It is arriving now, so people aren't gonan be looking the other way for much longer. But, what about all the electronics, jewelry, etc that has been SEEN being looted from business in New Orleans? Who in the hell is gonna benefit from a TV when there is no electricity? Jewelry, etc.... What good is that stuff? Well it's worth money after all this is over, that's what...and that's the reason they're stealing that stuff. These are greedy thieves and thugs capitalizing on the misfortunes of others, and it is wrong, wrong, wrong! The failures in the relief effort from the Federal Gov't need to be identified, and the responsible people held responsible. Another issue is why wasn't more money allocated to prevent the failure of the levies PRIOR to Katrina.... WHy in this country does it take a catastrophy to wake people up? But, this is NOT a black and white issue. The focus needs to be on helping these people, and not making a damn racial issue out of it. I am so sick of people pulling out that 'ol race card whenever it is convenient for them. Its just damn ignorant! I realize some of this post is off topic, but more or less went along with what is going on with the mayor.....it's all a terrible tragedy.
__________________
...A Bad Day of Fishing is Better Than a Great Day at Work! Last edited by texxasco; 09-04-2005 at 05:20 AM.. Reason: Subscribe to Thread |
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09-04-2005, 07:46 AM | #49 (permalink) |
Oh dear God he breeded
Location: Arizona
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I don't know. While I like that interveiw, it nice to see someone who isn't a PC zombie, I still think this has been a cluster fuck from the neck up. Every level of goverment has dropped the ball on this one. NO should have been MUCH better prepaird for this. The city is BELOW SEA LEVEL FOR GODS SAKE! You can't tell me they just though everything would be honkey dorry forever and ever amen. Anyone with 2 brain cells in their head could see soemthing like this happening. As soon as weather cleared enough for helos to fly, they should have been dropping troops and food, mounting rescue missions, doing whatever the fuck they had to get them poeple out of there and keep things under controle. If the local goverment does have to autherise federal help, they should have picked up the phone as soon as the big bitch landed there and cleared whoever for whatever. Now it is just everyone trying to point fingers instead of doing anything. Even the Pres has less then impressed me with his reaction to this. In the press conference I saw he came of as so insencer about this whole mess, I wanted to choke him. And this from someone who admits freely they don't really give a shit about most other people. The thing that makes this so bad to me, is not only is in a national disater, but it's rapidly turned into a national embaressment.
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Bad spellers of the world untie!!! I am the one you warned me of I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant. Last edited by Seer666; 09-05-2005 at 12:51 AM.. |
09-04-2005, 11:47 PM | #50 (permalink) | |
Crazy
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1700 buses 1700 bus drivers 1700 police 70,000 gallons of diesel The time needed is open to debate, but I think he would have needed three days at a minimum, probably four days. The fact is, he had fewer than 48 hours. There were about 36-40 hours remaining, when everyone began to realize New Orleans would likely be hit by a Cat 4 or stronger storm. I think the mayor could have evacuated up to 20,000 in that time frame, but it would have been at the expense of the other people trying to evacuate on their own, and it would have been at the expense of the remaining 80,000 to 90,000 who could or would not evacuate on their own. Given the time frame, no one could have evacuated 100,000 people. |
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09-05-2005, 03:32 AM | #51 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Somewhere in East Texas
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The fact is every person that would have made it out of there would have been an improvement over the way things actually transpired. It is also fact that the man NEVER EVEN MADE AN ETTEMPT to get anybody out who wasn't able to get out on their own. And, to add insult to injury, THERE WASN'T EVEN ANY CONTINGENCY PLAN to do so either! I take issue with the amount of time the man had, and the amount of resource he had available but like you say it is, and will be open for debate for a long time to come. I had no real scenario to speak of. I was merely pointing out that he could have done something, and gotten thousands out had he wanted to do so. I realize that not everyone would have left even if they had been afforded the opportunity. But You and I, as well as everybody else knows that there could have been lives saved, countless lives that DID NOT have to end because of his failure to act. The man DIDN'T HAVE THE BALLS or INTELLIGENCE to do any more than he did...and that amounted to nothing. Yet, once the shit hit the fan, what does Mayor Ray Nagin do? He blows up, and then points the finger at others for THEIR slow response. Well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? Put away your calculator for a minute and just look over the 3-4 days prior to the hurricane hitting land, and then 5-6 days afterwards.... What was the Mayor doing? Saving his own ass.
__________________
...A Bad Day of Fishing is Better Than a Great Day at Work! |
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09-05-2005, 09:24 AM | #52 (permalink) | |
Crazy
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Certainly, there were failures preparing and responding to this disaster at all levels of government, but to assign blame to the mayor (or anyone else) for not getting everyone out of the city prior to this hurricane is simply uninformed. Like I said, I think it's possible he could have evacuated 10,000 to 20,000 out of the city. This would have been a fraction of the people who might have been willing to leave (who do you choose to stay and go?). It also would have been at the expense of the people who could not have left. |
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09-05-2005, 11:24 AM | #53 (permalink) | |||
Insane
Location: Somewhere in East Texas
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I have also personally talked to some survivors here in Huntsville, yes that's right....here in Huntsville we have over 1,000 from New Orleans, Mississippi, and Alabama. I worked at a shelter passing out supplies, and talking to (mainly listening to) people tell their stories. One thing I heard over and over was how the mayor and the rest of the city turned their backs on them. Many wanted to go but couldn't.....and I also talked to some that did not want to go, but had to later on due to flooding. Don't go making assumptions about people,...you know what assuming does, don't you? Quote:
People are taking the time to blast the federal government, and yes there were failures at every level of government....but it starts at home, at the lowest level of government and that means the city council and mayor of New Orleans, as well as the other cities affected. The Mayor of New Orleans, as well as members of the city council failed the citizens of New Orleans. Period. Quote:
This also would have been a fraction of people to survive as well, rather than die from the hurricane or the flooding afterwards. If NO had a plan and executed it, we could look back and critique what they did.... but they didn't do ANYTHING. Don't you get it? Anything would have been better than nothing.... 1 - 1 single life saved would have been worth the effort. He could have started with the sick and elderly.... Haven't you heard the reports comign from the hospitals that lost lives because they couldn't come up with basic necessities..ie; running water, electricity, etc... Just evacuating the sick and elderly would have gone a long ways. But for many being sick and/or elderly was their death sentence. BTW.... Where do you live? If YOU lived near the Gulf region you would know that Hurricane season is a big deal every year, and every city should have some sort of contingency plan in case of a hurricane. And, if you were familiar with the area you would know that it doesn't take a hurricane to cause the massive devastation and loss of life we are seeing.... a good tropical storm stalling off the coast like Allison did will do quite a bit of damage on it's own.
__________________
...A Bad Day of Fishing is Better Than a Great Day at Work! |
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09-05-2005, 01:26 PM | #54 (permalink) | |||||
Crazy
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Hospital evacuations are tricky. It's not even as simple as loading everyone on buses. Many or most patients need to be evacuated by ambulance, and many other patients need to be airlifted out. I have a close family member involved in emergency planning at a major hospital here, it's not an easy thing to do. |
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09-05-2005, 01:39 PM | #55 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Somewhere in East Texas
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Yes.... Finally on one thing we agree... The levy system has been underfunded for years and years. Had the levee system held, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But, I maintain that those in NO knew better than anybody else, and really should have been better prepared. I bet when they rebuild, they'll be better prepared fro now on. I also know that yes indeed, according to NOAA weather, when Katrina was hitting Florida the projected path did show it hitting somewhere between Biloxi and New Orleans. I hate this time of year mainly because I am on call so much...because of hurricanes. TDCJ has units in low lying areas, ie; Brownsville area, and also Beaumont...and my whole dept is on edge anticipating an evacuation trip. I received a teletype with the projected path being what I stated, and I got it from work. Oh well... nothing to do now but watch it all unfold...
__________________
...A Bad Day of Fishing is Better Than a Great Day at Work! |
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09-05-2005, 02:54 PM | #56 (permalink) | ||
Crazy
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I don't think you can evacuate on a 10% chance. If you evacuated a city the size of New Orleans, and were wrong 9 out of 10 times, you'd be strung up by your toes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrica...na#Predictions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ricane_Katrina Quote:
I totally agree, government at all levels will learn from this tragedy- we can only hope- and next time they can be better prepared to both protect the city and get the heck out of there. Last edited by vautrain; 09-05-2005 at 03:02 PM.. |
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09-05-2005, 05:41 PM | #57 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Somewhere in East Texas
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We never saw any percentages.....we were just given a teletype showing a graphic of a cone and the most probable area the eye would hit somewhere just west of New Orleans extending all the way up to just east of Biloxi,MS. It mentioned that Katrina at that time was a Cat1, and she was expected to gain considerable strength once reaching the warmer waters of the gulf of mexico. Anyway..... I agree to disagree with you at this point. I maintain my position, and I am sure you do as well... Like I stated previously, all we can do is watch it all unfold. I spent a little time tonight helping out at the Red Cross shelter set up at 1st Baptist church here in Huntsville. I also found out that I might have some neighbors soon, and those being evacuees. It's a small world....
__________________
...A Bad Day of Fishing is Better Than a Great Day at Work! |
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09-05-2005, 10:09 PM | #58 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Nagin is no Giuliani, thats for sure. And whats he going to do to celebrate the worst natural disaster in the history of the country? Why, send his crew to Vegas, of course!...PARTY TIME!!! Quote:
After draining all the water, the second step to rebuilding NOLA should be to hire another mayor. |
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09-06-2005, 03:29 AM | #59 (permalink) | |
Free Mars!
Location: I dunno, there's white people around me saying "eh" all the time
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/end sarcasm
__________________
Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war |
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09-06-2005, 08:05 AM | #61 (permalink) |
it's jam
Location: Lowerainland BC
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Comparing 911 to this is ridiculous. A couple of buildings Vs an entire city. Hardly the same I'd say. Giuliani would have come unglued (and rightfully so) if nobody showed up to help when the towers fell and his citizens were trapped for days on end. Again, comparing this disaster to 911 is complete bullshit.
The way this disaster has been handled so far is totally unacceptable, but it sounds about right based on the amount of planning and cutbacks from all levels of government.
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nice line eh? |
09-06-2005, 08:19 AM | #62 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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I really have a hard time understanding why ANYONE here is sticking up for this guy.
I guess thats how incompetent people get elected in the first place. He did NOTHING to prepare his city, it goes to hell, and he comes unglued. What he needs is a slapping.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
09-06-2005, 11:11 AM | #63 (permalink) | |
Crazy
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I'm reminded of a Boudreaux joke, the punch line of which goes something like this- Are you gonna fish, or are you gonna bitch? |
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09-06-2005, 11:41 AM | #64 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: Mattoon, Il
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Except nothing the Army Corps of Engineers could've done would have kept the levee system from collapsing, and besides that, the levees were made to protect the city from a category 3 hurricane, not a category 5 monster like Katrina.
__________________
Pantera, Shadows Fall, Fear Factory, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Dimmu Borgir, Watch Them Die, Motorhead, Beyond the Embrace, Himsa, Black Label Society, Machine Head, In Flames, Soilwork, Dark Tranquility, Children of Bodom, Norther, Nightrage, At the Gates, God Forbid, Killswitch Engage, Lamb of God, All That Remains, Anthrax, Mudvayne, Arch Enemy, and Old Man's Child \m/ |
09-06-2005, 11:54 AM | #65 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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They were slated to be upgraded to withstand Category 5 but their funding got cut.
__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter |
09-06-2005, 12:50 PM | #66 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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09-06-2005, 01:02 PM | #67 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Somewhere in East Texas
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YES! Think of all the displaced citizens of New orleans...Where is their all expense paid trip to Vegas? It's tough all over....and it is a sad day when the cops are taking time out to vacation in Vegas, at their wonderful mayor's offering, while the rest of the city swims in shit. Not to mention all the federal troops and aid workers now in the city working to locate citizens, find the dead, and basically assess the loss of life at this point, and pump out the water....and you send your first line of defense for the citizens and the city itself...on vacation... Insane... Nice Touch Mayor Nagin!! Bravo!!
__________________
...A Bad Day of Fishing is Better Than a Great Day at Work! |
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09-06-2005, 04:45 PM | #68 (permalink) | |
Crazy
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Almost a year and a half after 9/11, nearly 10% of the emergency workers at the WTC site were deemed suicidal enough to be referred to mental health professionals for evaluation and counseling. Many of the NO police have lost their homes, friends, even family. |
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09-06-2005, 04:47 PM | #69 (permalink) | |
Crazy
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It's been going on for years and years. |
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09-06-2005, 05:17 PM | #70 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Somewhere in East Texas
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Yes it has.....many years in fact. I won't hold my breath, but what do you want to bet they get their funding now?
__________________
...A Bad Day of Fishing is Better Than a Great Day at Work! |
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09-07-2005, 02:07 AM | #71 (permalink) |
Banned
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Regarding the "sending police on vacation, and to las vegas" bit:
They'd had 2 suicides, one being a high-profile spokesperson. They'd had 200+ officers leave from the stress. In addition to the police force are all the EMS workers. All those that stayed, worked about 20 hours a day, every day, seeing nothing but dead bodies- stranded, hungry, thirsty people they can't help- people roaming the city with guns, fires, countless wounded, sick, dying people, in endless streams. These people are traumatized by their experience. We give those in armed services our respect and reverence, and our help, from trauma disorders. I think what these people have been through, based on their usual tasks and job responsibilities, has been a nightmare of unimaginable proportions. There's only so much a person can take, even a professional, before the mind and the body start to wind down from stress, lack of sleep, and the relentless horror. Being critical of decisions in an orderly and well-articulated argument is one thing... ...being a crass, sarcastic jackass about police officers and other EMS workers being "sent on vacation" is a bit much. They're there to try and forget the hundreds, maybe thousands of people they've seen dead or dying, those they couldn't save, and the destruction of their own city, their own homes. As it is, most of these people risk their lives and push the limits of their human workload on a regular basis as it is, and they're not getting rich doing so. But on the whole, they are proud to do it. After what they've been through, you're going to shit on all of them by bitching about a 5-day rest? It did mention that counseling was part of it, btw, and most of them will need some form of it, even if it's second-hand from a friend, colleague, or maybe just a stranger and fellow victim. The military has taken over policing, and there are plenty of medical resources at their disposal. To this point, there is an article on cnn.com that had some NOLA official saying they had plenty of medical personnel, but only 10 boats, and that was slowing their rescues. They have the help they need. At some point, you have to rotate exhausted people out and let fresh people in to the core. Pretty much no one can carry on indefinitely. |
09-07-2005, 08:49 AM | #72 (permalink) | |
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. Last edited by Bill O'Rights; 09-07-2005 at 08:51 AM.. |
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09-07-2005, 09:17 AM | #73 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Byesville
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My father taught me a long time ago that "The reason people blame other people is that there's only one other option." I think everyone is in the wrong here, and I think heads need to roll. Unfortunately, they are starting the finger pointing and blaming a little to soon for me. It's been about 9-10 days and there are people who still need to be rescued.
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If after I depart this vale you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner, and wink your eye at some homely girl. H.L. Mencken |
09-07-2005, 10:04 AM | #74 (permalink) | |
is KING!
Location: On the path to Valhalla.
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09-07-2005, 10:32 AM | #75 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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I'm not arguing the particulars of each disaster...I'm criticizing the reactions of the respective leaders. I also think you're short-changing Giuliani's organizational skills in handling the crisis during and after it happened. I didn't see Giuliani in front of a tv camera blaming Bush and the CIA for intelligence failures while the towers were collapsing. Or blaming anyone else for that matter. Notice how Nagin has become quite docile and conciliatory now that the situation has come under control? Like Ustwo said, I can't understand why anyone would stick up for this guy. analog, the irony is apparently lost on you if you don't see what a farce sending your police force to Vegas is. These are public servants who have taken an oath to protect and serve the public. TO PROTECT AND SERVE THE PUBLIC. Not abdicate in the face of hardship. One of the cops who killed himself lost his wife in the flood. I appreciate the concept of stress management, but now is not the time. |
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09-07-2005, 11:05 AM | #76 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Right here
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__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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09-07-2005, 12:08 PM | #77 (permalink) | |
it's jam
Location: Lowerainland BC
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__________________
nice line eh? |
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09-07-2005, 01:12 PM | #79 (permalink) | |
Insane
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Nobody works like they have been without beginning to feel the beginning stages of burnout. Emotional, physical, mental burnout. They aren't able to function after a period of time, some longer than others. You can't put standards on people you don't know. If you were in New Orleans leading by example I would give you credit, but forcing people when they can't go on is beyond stupidity. |
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09-07-2005, 01:31 PM | #80 (permalink) | ||
Crazy
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The New Orleans levee projects have been federally funded for years and years, because the value of New Orleans to the national economy is well-established. Unfortunately, the levee projects have been federally underfunded for years and years, as well. It's not Bush's fault, because the underfunding certainly did not begin with Bush. However, he did nothing to right that wrong, either. Pointing the finger at Bush is like pointing the finger at Nagin, in that regard. Quote:
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coming, mayor, orleans, poll, unglued |
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