Phage

But surely being wrong is not a completely new phenomenon. I suppose that I could have used "erroneous", but I wanted to avoid "wrong" due to the chance of being mistaken for a moral stance.
I find it surprising that you support an alteration of judgement that not only the justice system but all the philosophers who try to be objective view to hinder making correct decisions. If you are going to depart from rational thinking in favor of purely emotional arguments then kindly state it plainly near the start of your post so that it can be disregarded with ease.
I don't think it is amusing to knowingly hold flawed thought processes and then try to inflict your conclusions on other people. Of course, this appears to be instead an astonishingly poorly disguised Appeal to Mockery.

Ella

Schapelle Corby was sentenced to 20 years in an Indonesian prison today. One could say she didn't receive an entirely fair hearing, as no fingerprints were allowed to be taken from the bag of drugs. Her defence is appealing, and until then, she remains imprisoned in an Indonesian hellhole.

Somewhere, several baggage handlers are possibly feeling pretty darn lousy.

Linkage

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dlish

i just hope that for the sake of other australians imprisoned on trumped up charged in makeshift jails without right to proper councel, that the australian government does something for them

the australian gov't can take the initiative and try and save another aussie who has broken no international, australian or american laws, yet has been imprsined incommunicado for 3.5 years on charges so vague that my dead nanna could be brought to justice.

lets see the aussies stand up for david and protest as loudly for david as they did for shappelle..david and shappelle really are in the same boat, or is it only to the indoniseans that we show our political muscle?

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Suave

And how do you come about the notion of emotion being flawed? It may obscure purely logical thought processes, but as far as law is concerned, that only goes so far as in determining guilt, and avoiding personal biases. Compassion does not require bias, and in fact, should be applied without it.

Sweetpea is simply asking how you would feel if it were someone with whom you were connected. It's not a flaw to consider this person in the same way; it is a flaw not to. To separate yourself completely from the situation simply because you have the situational fortitude to do so is no more right than is to base legal judgements on one's own emotional attachment, or lack thereof, to the accused.

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jorgelito

Or maybe these people should obey and respect the laws of other countries. She was lucky she didn't get the death penalty. That was probably out of consideration for her as a Westerner (white).

Nisses

Suave:

"To separate yourself completely from the situation simply because you have the situational fortitude to do so is no more right than is to base legal judgements on one's own emotional attachment, or lack thereof, to the accused."

How come then, in every matter of court a judge, a lawyer, a member of a jury will get removed from the case if there is an emotional attachment to the case?
Seems to me that it IS right to do so, exactly *because* you have to option.
If you hope to achieve *any* level of equality in punishment for misdemeanors and crimes, you'll do well to have an unattached entity judge it, compassion included(which like you said, should be applied regardless).

I'm not saying that for the parties involved, this wouldn't have been a tragedy, to lose somebody... Far from it.
What I am saying is that even though it would have been one, the punishment should still have to stand.

As for Sweetpea: what good can come from mocking a person's use of a word in the correct way?

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Vincentt

Just reading the story... would this girl really have had 4something kilos of pot and left it in her bag?

Many people are just flat saying "she had the drugs, she should have been shot."
But what if she didn't, what if she was just traveling through and got uber screwed.

Any number of people could have slipped something in or out of my bags when I fly. If I was suddenly arrested, had no clue why, and was facing death... and people all over the place were saying "he had it coming"....


I can't help but get the idea that this is very political.
"We will not back down to Australians"

I hope everyone drops their plans to go to Indonesia, or any of these 'backwards' countries.

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Ella

Australian baggage handlers are rumoured to have a drug smuggling racket happening, and it appears someone forgot to take the bag out of her boogie board bag when she left Sydney. I mean....who smuggles drugs into Bali??

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Rlyss

That's the thing, some people think she could be guilty because it's so simple - if she gets away with it then she scores, but if she gets caught then it looks just like somebody planted it. If it's really well hiddden then she can't very well claim she was framed. I don't think anyone out there (except for the Indonesians) believes she should be punished even if she was framed. Most Australians believe she was framed and shouldn't be punished, but it seems the Indonesian officials think she knew about it, and even if she didn't she should be punished as a deterrent to others if they're thinking of trying the same thing.

Crying that it's political doesn't make too much sense to me - prison time is for rehabilitation, to protect a person from society, AND to show other potential criminals what'll happen when they're caught. And since South East Asia has such a huge drug problem (particularly Bali with its massive tourist industry catering to young holiday-makers and students from Australia) it's obvious why they'd want to make an example out of her. I don't think that's out of line if she is guilty.

Bali's tourist industry is going downhill anyway. The 2002 Bali bombing scared lots of people away and the threat of terrorism and the increased security measures aren't enticing many Aussies to go, and the Corby case has made many Aussies boycott Bali in protest, or just not want to risk it for themselves. Not looking too good for Bali I think.

But, since I believe she's innocent, I hope the courts rule that there's not enough proof to convict her. I don't think they'll ever prove she's innocent, so hopefully they'll just have to realize that they can't prove she's guilty either and let her go.

EDIT: I just read that she's been sentences to 20 years, I feel terribly sorry for her, words can't even describe how she must be feeling. I don't think Aussies are too fond of the Indonesian courts at the moment

Ustwo

Moral of the story.

Stay in "Western" nations.

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Vincentt

I know I'll never go to bali now.

And I sure hope other people feel the same, or at least think a little harder about it.

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Irishsean

I'd still go to Bali, but I would keep the same common sense I use here in the states and NOT BREAK ANY LAWS I'M NOT PREPARED TO TAKE THE PUNISHMENT FOR!

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splck

I'd go to Bali. Being scared to go to a non-western country because of this event is more paranoia than common sense.

The moral of the story: lock your baggage.

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nice line eh?

Ustwo

I wouldn't call it being scared or parinoid but common sense.

If you go to nations with kangaroo courts don't be surprised if your trip is longer than expected.

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Pacifier

Well, certain western nations put you in jail for years without trial...

If she is guilty than she deserves the punishment since she knew that.
The USA, for example, also executes foreigners and noone complains (well almost noone ).

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Cynthetiq

one of the reasons why I was always so careful when I was south of the border...

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Suave

Emotional attachment to the case is only in reference to emotional bias. Bias is the absolute key word here. It is not about removing emotion from the process, it is about treating everyone equally. First off, it is impossible to remove bias in reality anyway, and it will always be there no matter how "objective" people are. Second, it is possible to be unbiased and involve emotion, or to be biased purely on a logical basis. Just because the concepts are not generally considered in such a manner does not make logic infallible and emotion fallible. It all depends how they are applied.

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"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

MikeyChalupa

Looks like she got 20 years, pending appeal.

If she's guilty, she deserves it. The law is the law. Until it changes, break it and face the consequences.

If she's innocent, then it just goes to show how "pot never harmed anyone" is a bunch of bullshit. She's going to jail (and could have been executed) so some stoners could get high on the shit she was unwittingly smuggling.

-Mikey

MSD

The cultural relativism is literally making me sick. I can't understand how anyone can brush this off by saying, "well, it's their law and she should have obeyed it." Throughout history, humankind has worked endlessly to triumph over unjust governments, and once they're gone, we stop caring and let them take over again. The whole fucking world should be working to stop this kind of abuse.

I can't come up with words strong enough to describe my feeligns on this particular situation. I have enough issues with the death penalty being used on people who actually did something wrong, like killing others, but to use it for something like drug trafficking stirs up anger and disgust in me that, once again, is beyond the realm of what I can find words to describe. If a citizen of a country over which I presided were in this situation, I would not hesitate to send a special forces military unit in to rescue them.

Additionally, and this is why I'll probably never make it into any sort of major political office, I would refuse to have any sort of diplomatic relations or trade with any country that so blatantly violated human rights. Fundamentalist states whose governments execute people for "immorality," totalitarian states that execute and murder their own citizens for dissent, and any country with policies that oppress anyone who does not violate the rights of others fall into this category.

Honestly, the fact that 2 million years of evolution and thousands of years of widespread social progress can't bring us past this kind of barbarism brings me to a sort of apathetic attitude toward the fact that global warming will bake most of us off the face of the planet in the next few hundred years. Maybe if we have to unite to work against something that threatens us more than we threaten each other, we'll get past the phase where we let oppressive governments kill us for doing nothing wrong.

Irishsean

What about the right of people to live in a safe environment, where people follow the law. What about the right to take your kid to the beach and not have to worry about DRUG TRAFFICKERS with 9 lbs. of drugs in their bag!

Changing the law would be the way to go about it, not sending in spec ops to break someone out of jail and violate anothers countries sovereignty. What your suggesting is starting a war. The law is the law, you can't go around saying peeople should declare war on other countries because they don't agree with your beliefs. Thats what terrorists do.

Are you advocating using special forces to enter another country, attack a government facility, kill innocent soldiers whos only crime is to fight for their country, and help a convicted drug trafficker out of jail?

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Phage

MrSelfDestruct
I agree that it is our duty to stop particularly unjust governments from torturing their populations, but in this instance they have a pretty good position.

First of all she was not arrested for an arbitrary offense like failing to bow as royalty passes, or for being a woman with her head uncovered, or other nonsense. She was arrested and charged with being a drug smuggler, and with very convincing evidence; while there is always the chance she is not guilty it is safe to say that charging her made sense.

As for the penalty perhaps being too harsh, we in the West have a different view of the issue. Personally I think that most illegal drugs should not be outlawed as the behavior they are supposed to encourage is already illegal, and currently the ban is more damaging in that they provide funds to criminal elements. You have to understand that in that area of the world there are large, organized drug operations which frequently clash with governmental armies in fairly large military actions. The "War on Drugs" in this case is quite an appropriate name, and in some cases the criminal syndicates are better funded than the government. Serious penalties for drug smuggling make sense in this context.

I don't see the problem here; she was arrested with good reason, had a trial, and as it turns out did not receive the death penalty. Everyone who was not there and has no real information about the particulars of the trial can still crow about kangaroo courts mainly because there is no way to stop such idiocy, but I think they were justified.

Seeker

Ustwo, I'm not sure what you mean when you say kangaroo courts. Being from Australia and the kangaroo being our mark so to speak, I'm confused with this expression.

I think it could be seen as both common sense and paranoia.. the bottom line being that if you have not committed a crime, you can still be in trouble.

I responded in the Australia thread that if you lock your bags and take pictures of said bags before you boarded with a time/date stamp.. then that could possibly keep you out of this type of trouble. Last thought here though was that if the pictures would stand up as evidence in their court system...

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Phage

Haha! That would not stand up as evidence in a high school civics courtroom roleplay.

dlish

oh i would have to agree Mrselfdestruct...

"I would refuse to have any sort of diplomatic relations or trade with any country that so blatantly violated human rights"

now lets see...human rights huh.. lets see..China (blatent crackdown on minority groups in the name of anti-terror)..strike...Russia..(ditto)..strike..most of sth west asia and central asia..(ditto) ..strike..africa..(dictators, civil unrest, poor human rights records)..strike...mid east (ditto as africa)..strike..USA... (rendition of prisoners to other counrties, blatant breaking of geneva conventions, guantanamo..lets not go there.. crackdown on minority groups...weapons of mass destruction hoax etc etc etc)

there we go... we just struck off most of the known world for human rights abuses. not many countries left to deal with really.. maybe we should all move to switzelrand or sweden or something.

the fact that a sovereign country with its own laws (based on european systems of law mind you..im sure it was the dutch system) convicts a drug smuggler to 20 years is not any countries business. the indonesians didnt kidnap her and smuggle her into the country..she arrived on a plane and was convicted of carrying drugs. whether or not the trail was fair is another story. but we cannot interfere in another sovereign countries affairs.. thats what dictators and terrorists do...unless ure name of course is mr Bush. then in that case you can kidnap prisoners from zambia, bosnia, and across the mid east and throw them on an island called cuba..render them to other counrties to do your dirty work and then bring them back. lets call a spade a spade.

yeah she did get rough justice i think... but we cant just willy nilly send in covert commandos to break out a convicted drug smuggler. especially ocnsidering that indonesia IS australias closest neighbour. whatever happened to diplomacy?!?!

anotehr issue i have is this... had this been someone from a third world country, it would never have made the front pages..but a young pretty aussie girl..and its a debacle.

had someone been convicted in austalia of smuggling drugs, we all would have asked for the maximum penalty...lets not talk about the inhumanity of indonesians.. we all are capable of doing much worse. doesnt matter which part of the world you come from.

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I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
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Seeker

Hmmm.. thanks Phage for making fun of my idea to try to come to terms with the issue of travel and safety... I don't think my post was a definite answer to the concern about the bottom line being that if you have not committed a crime, you can still be in trouble.

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Ustwo

kangaroo court would be a court where the outcome was predetermined reguardless of the evidence.

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Vincentt

Irishsean what makes you think she is guility? The fact that someone said she was?
This court thinks the same way you do, if someone says she did it, it is up to her to prove she didn't.

It is very hard to prove that you didn't do something. If it was your bag, and I came along in the back room, and shoved it full of pot, how would you prove you didn't do it?


.. you can't even lock your luggage as far as I know, or they cut the locks off.


What was her record in Australia, did she have a history of drugs?

I still think it is 9 pounds of pot... and that is a HUGE amount to put in a bag... I think there is no way she did that.

I am not pro-pot here, I am feel she didn't have anything to do with it. If she did it, I wouldn't care as much. Well, I woudl still be worried about the court systems.

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Irishsean

I carry around a bag with my hobby stuff in it all the time, I sure as hell would notice if it suddenly was 9 lbs. heavier. The first thing I would do is open it, see it had a bunch of pot, and head for the nearest police station. The cops are a lot more likely to believe you if you turn it in yourself rather than get caught with it.

As for whether shes guilty or not, I don't know. But she was convicted in a court of law, while some people might argue it was unfair, it followed the law of the country she was in. To say countries who have laws or punishments we disagree with, so we should assault them with military forces and free convicted criminals is asinine.

I think its hilarious that the people that are so against the war and Bush putting our morals on other countries are also the ones screaming that we need to go in and put our morals and laws on the people of Bali to protect this person.

Ya can't have it both ways...

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Leon Trotsky

dlish

well it was revealed the other day that her dad got caught with marijuana in his younger days..but he also denied it was his..dejavu.. but it must also be stated that she did have a clean record. most ppl have tried marijuana in their younger days (even if u dont inhale lol), so its no big deal that her dad was caught with it..it was probably the 60's too, so i guess u can be forgiven?

on the issue of the sentence, to give a lenient sentence would give a green light for others to traffic drugs into bali. another issue is the Bali 9 (9 aussies caught traficking drugs from bali to sydney a few weeks ago). now that they have found out what Corby got, they have realised what they are up against. lets just remmeber that had the drugs come onto the street, someone son or daughter may have been killed because of it... the way i see it, its the indonesians cleaning up their own backyard.

i still think 20 years is harsh for marijuana.... i have mixed feelings about this whole case. i feel for her, but also know that the indonesians have a right to uphold their law, without external meddling

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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
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Vincentt

I was under the impression that she never touched her bag after checking it in Australia.

What her dad did has nothing to do with her.

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dlish

someone asked for a 'history of drugs'. to some, it may be a cause for concern. although i agree that whatever her dad did has nothing to do with her, i was just trying to be subjective.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Cynthetiq

so what you are saying then allows for ALL other governments and factions (includes all terrorist groups) the same reasoning to attack the American courts, lifestyles, and belief systems based on these above tenents.

I'm not even going to include internals like evangelicals.

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basmoq

I'm sorry, but I must say that if she was bringing drugs into a foreign country, she should be held responsible under their laws. I in no way would state that their laws are too fierce, because I don't know how bad their drug epidemic is. It may be a necessary measure to insure that drugs stay out of their country and meant to send a message to drug smugglers.

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diddagirl

I think the entire situation is extremely sad..... It doesnt sound as if she even had a chance at a fair trial. Once they find someone with drugs in a country like that- the decision has been made that you are guilty and will be punished to the full extent of the law. It's just really hard for me coming from the country that I come from- how someone could possibly get that much time for the amount of pot they had. Now I am by no means a fan of drugs (I actually am very against even pot), but to give someone 20 years for possession, is something I cant even begin to fathom. Especially in a situation like this, when she may very well be innocent.

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dlish

she didnt get punished to thefull extent of the law though diddagirl. she could have got death sentence, but instead they gave her 20. and the prosecution is appealing saying the sentence is too lenient.

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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
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Seeker

Ahh, thanks much...

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maleficent

In the US, 9 pounds of marijuana wouldn't be possession, that would be intent to distribute... I'd imagine if she had a few ounces, then the 20 year sentence wouldn't have been enforced... it probably owuld have been a lot less...

Even Olympic Snowboarders wouldn't be able to go thru 9 pounds of pot in a weekend...

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bondage007

She was found guilty in a court of law.

Unless the verdict is overturned on appeal, and personally i dont think it will/should be, she should serve the 20 years.

spindles

This is a case that has been highly publicised here. I don't think this was a "kangaroo court" as pointed out above. I think her defence team had a complete lack of evidence to use to acquit her. Allegations of a possible drug smuggling operation by baggage handlers are exactly that - allegations. The testimony of a criminal doing time in Oz, describing an overheard conversation, would've also been inadmissable here (he would not have even got into the court room). The evidence that could've been used to acquit her (weight of her total bags when the arrived in Bali, video in Brisbane of her baggage when it was loaded) was never acquired, either through bungling or misadventure. It basically came down to her not being able to prove the drugs were not hers. On the evidence put forward, she probably would've been found guilty in Australia as well.

BTW - she was facing the death penalty, so 20 years might be seen as leniency on the part of the judges. Also, the prosecution is also set to appeal the size of the sentence, believing she should get life, so her appeal might actually backfire.

Finally - my guess is she is innocent, but that is all it is - a guess.

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maleficent

As oftenas I travel. I've never really looked-- whever i check my bag, it's weighed.. I have always assumed it was to make sure it was under a specific weight -- because i have seen the agents make people redistribute stuff in suitcases or charge the passenger an excess baggage fee...

Is that weight recorded anywhere?

maybe it should be? It'd be a pretty easy test to know if something was added to the bag OR taken out.

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