02-01-2005, 12:04 PM | #41 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Quote:
If you don't find something that answers your question, then feel free to start a thread.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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02-01-2005, 06:53 PM | #42 (permalink) | |
President Rick
Location: location location
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Especially something like Christianity, whose sole purpose is to convert as many people as possible. But I guess that's another one of those "optional" bits. I fail to see the reason to create clutter by starting yet another thread when this one is specifically about people's interpretation of the Bible and the will of the almighty.
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This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent. This is not a link - Do not click here I hate animated avatars. |
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02-01-2005, 07:09 PM | #43 (permalink) | ||
Tilted
Location: Oregon, USA
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As a non-believer, I enjoy reading a spirited discussion about religion as much as the next guy. Reading someone's one-line "zingers" that attempt to force others to defend their religion isn't alll that entertaining. Quote:
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Faith: not wanting to know what is true. ~Friedrich Nietzsche |
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02-01-2005, 09:55 PM | #44 (permalink) | ||
President Rick
Location: location location
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I do find it amusing that in a thread that you say is about free speech, that I'm getting slammed for asking questions. Quote:
And even if I was half the "evil meanie" that I'm being made to look like, I would think that Christians would welcome that even more according to Matthew 5:10. Although in this case that may not be applicable. This whole 'the Bible is just a storybook' from a self proclaimed Christian is a new one for me, and bring up a whole new set of questions that won't be answered.
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This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent. This is not a link - Do not click here I hate animated avatars. |
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02-01-2005, 10:56 PM | #45 (permalink) | |
whosoever
Location: New England
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Quote:
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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 |
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02-02-2005, 05:05 AM | #46 (permalink) |
Minion of the scaléd ones
Location: Northeast Jesusland
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So God hates Shrimp and Cigarettes?
Lebell, I understand that the God in the new Testament is running under different rules that the God in the Old Testament. New Covenant and all that sort of thing. What bugs the heck out of me is the number of folks running around claiming to be Christians who haven't figured that out. According to Bill Moyers quoting a recent Gallup poll, a Third of the American electorate believes the Bible is Literally True. (<a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5211218.html">Here's the link</a> to the Star Tribune piece that I am drawng on.) One Third. Look at the person to your right and the person to your left. If you don't believe the Bible is Literally true, chances are that one of them does. This is a major failure of our educational system, and it leads to, among many other things, homophobia - or, more generally, xenophobia. Well, things run in cycles. I'll just hope I survive until the '60s and '70s come back around.
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Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life. |
02-02-2005, 07:42 AM | #47 (permalink) | |
whosoever
Location: New England
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tophat...you may also find it interesting that the 50's were a pretty good decade for liberal Christianity. Paul Tillich's "Courage to Be" was widely read, and advocates a post-theistic Christianity. By the 70's, the conservative response was already in full swing, and moved to mainstream culture a few years later. just thought i'd add...
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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 Last edited by martinguerre; 02-02-2005 at 07:44 AM.. Reason: clarification |
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02-03-2005, 12:10 PM | #50 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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mrklixx,
I am avoiding hijacking the thread. I don't see that it's an unreasonable request to ask you to take it to "Philosophy" and your own thread, or, as it's been pointed out, do a search and read the several threads that have already been done on the topic.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
02-03-2005, 01:03 PM | #51 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Right behind you...BOO!
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I have to admit from the sounds of things (because there is no link and I haven't done a search because I'm pretty sure i get the idea now) ... oh yes, from the sound of things...
It seems to me that this preacher was arrested for 'trying' to insite a riot to go after homosexuals, but had not actually managed to succeed in this task. However he did discriminate against homosexuals by not allowing them to join his congragation. (please fogive any spelling errors...in a bit of a hurry ) The problem I see is he is being punished for something he 'tried' to do along side something he did. I would have much rather have seen this riot come to life and taken more then one person to use as an example. I'm not saying I am hoping for some bad thing to happen to homosexuals because quite honestly I fully support them and their rights to be protected. But the simple truth is, trying to do something and doing something are two different things. Good-prosecute to the fullest of the law for his discrimination, but how can you hold him also accountable for something that didn't fully come to be?? Please know I'm on my way out the door, but had to say something, I will be happy to recheck this post in just a few
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Smile It makes people wonder what you're up too! |
02-06-2005, 04:54 AM | #53 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Sweden - Land of the sodomite damned
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Quote:
It's one thing having your own opinion and sharing it with people, it's a whole other thing to preach it as if it was the truth. He went over the line, that is very clear. Whether he should have just been fined or jailed is another matter.
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If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. |
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02-06-2005, 06:43 AM | #54 (permalink) |
Likes Hats
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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Okay, I just read the actual sermon (at http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=147&a=367498 for those of you who understands swedish) and I can't honestly say that Åke tried to rouse actions against homosexuals, except the usual "saving the sinners" stuff. He said that all these people living in sin might make God strike Sweden with earthquakes and floods and that you can't be both homosexual and christian.
The root of the issue is the tangled relations between the church and the state in Sweden. The short story is that the state can't accept that a religious organisation has different opinions than the state. We have freedom of religion, sure, as long as the religions are "sensible". Personally I think the Åke Green case is stupid, that Åke didn't break the law, and a lot of people in Sweden think the same. |
02-06-2005, 08:51 AM | #55 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Above you
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Bible quotations come from King James version.
Translators comments in brackets [comment] The text I'm translating from is obviously a transcript of his exact words during the sermon so I have tried to correct and change as little as possible in this translation. Is homosexuality an inherent urge or is it evil powers playing games with humans? I am well aware of the subject being charged and controversial. And even that it has become that in christian circles. I have not sought supprot in Gods words for my thoughts. But Gods words has given me the thoughts I am about to present here today. I will bring forth the subject of homosexuality but also the the realtionship with christian homosexuals. Is it a sign of our time and can somone be saved from it? God has in genesis created humans to be man and woman. We start in Genesis 1:27-28 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Here Gods words says clearly and legible that you were created to be Father and Mother. To man and woman. De were supposed to be parents. The Lord says this clearly and legible. And the script percives any form of sexuall contact outside the frames of marriage as fornication. And that signify the word fornication. [Don't ask I have no idea what he means with the last sentence.] It is also clearly pronounced in [this is a phrase hard to translate, "instiftelseorden till äktenskapet" as far as I can tell it means >the words that institute marriage> but I'm not sure. He uses a religious technical term that is hard to translate.] in Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." Here only husband and wife is spoken of... It is not written in any other way and/or [It is not clear if he means "and" or "or"] you may never interpret it so that you may chose any partner you may wish. The urge God put in man to experience the deepest form of companionship and to presereve marriage in true faithfullness. It has become the devils strongest weapon in his fight against God and marriage. Namely he uses it against God. What god has created so that man may experience companionship and faithfullness and happiness and all that it brings. That is what the devil is using against God and right in the face of God. To twist and bend/corrupt [Hard translated term that means both]. In the animal kingdom there is males and females, among the plantes there are alsom male and female plants, neither in the animal nor in the plant realm exists any abnormalities. For each speices keeps to it's own kind. That is the way it is. Untill man in later years has barged in on this area with artifical impregnations [Term "provrörsbefruktningar" means lit. test tube fertilizations meaning inseminations of already fertilized eggs] and through cloning. Untill then it has been the way God said we should live. Through legalizing partnership between male & male... between female & female. Will come disasters plain and simply. Without it's likeness. We see the consequences of this already here. We see it through AIDS that is spreading. All AIDS-infected are not homosexual, but it has come to be because of this at one point in time. Ofcourse innocents can be infecte of this terrible disease without it meaning that it has anything to do with homosexuality. But still, it will create a huge catastrophe and that already the goverments and social goverments has found that this they don't master. [This is a hard sentece to translate since it makes very little sense gramatically in Swedish. It seems that this is a written transcript of his exact words and his grip of Swedish grammar is rather scetchy at best. The best I could do was an interpretation of what he said, if anyone object please open your mouth and tell me.]. We are experiencing the difficulties with it. But that's not all, the television told us that the number of STD-infected males and females are rising. It is spreading more and more because of people not living the way God intended man to live toghether. And is because people is derailing into clearly unbiblical and clearly inhuman relations. this is no private matter nor is it a right to live in another sexual manner than what the bible says. Hebrew 13:4 "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." No matter how the society views this God will judge both the society and those who commit the fornication. Remember this. Both society or [I don't know why he used or instead of and here, his grammar suck.] the city or the place will God judge above those who commits this fornication. If we go back in history to Genesis 19:1-5. v. 4 "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;" "And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night." "And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat." "But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:" "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them." Here we read about homosexual males for the first time. All of sodoms men spoke openly and showed openly their deviant sexual alignment. "Both old and young" we read here. Everyone. And this is whay they say: "that we may know them." And that means a sexual contact. The same expression that the bible use when a man goes to a woman. It is the same expression here as say if these men had lust for eachother. [Yet another grammatically messed up sentence.]. Isaiah puts it like this Isaiah 3:9 "The shew of their countenance doth witness against them;" that they didn't do in Sodom. Obviously they show themselves in front of the house and calls for Lot. The righteous, they don't spare him in any way and says "bring them out unto us, that we may know them.". We lust for it, frankly and simply. In the middle of the street these men are standing. They don't conceal their sin. Completly in the open and unembarrased they spoke of their sexual needs and that says something about the state in Sodom. God says to Abraham in Genesis 18:20 "And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;". That says the Lord. Very grievous! They cry from Sodom and Gomorrah it is huge and griveous. That is the way God views this deviant sexual relation. It is very griveous says God. It is very griveous that when man gives enraptures himself this way. etc. ------------------------------------ This is the beginning of the sermon, I will see if I find time and energy to translate any further (and if you find it necessarry). But the sermon doesn't get any better than this. He begins with stating that it is not Gods words that gave him these ideas but that the words of God inspired him to think these thoughts and then he continiues to base most of his arguments on the "words of God" (the bible). Then he goes on to blaming AIDS on homosexuals etc. There are so many misconceptions and misunderstandings in his sermon that I seroiusly doubt he could have made it through hightschool. He must have been stuck in a cell with only the bible and a TV a company for years.
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- "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.." - "Religions take everything that your DNA naturally wants to do to survive and pro-create and makes it wrong." - "There is only one absolute truth and that is that there is only one absolute truth." |
02-06-2005, 09:42 AM | #56 (permalink) |
whosoever
Location: New England
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that he's using the KJV is probably the first sign that things are off the tracks. lovely as it sounds...it misreads the hebrew in those passages considerably.
/bible dork
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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 |
02-06-2005, 10:07 AM | #57 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Above you
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Quote:
__________________
- "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.." - "Religions take everything that your DNA naturally wants to do to survive and pro-create and makes it wrong." - "There is only one absolute truth and that is that there is only one absolute truth." |
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02-06-2005, 12:39 PM | #58 (permalink) |
Likes Hats
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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Great work there Cervantes! The sermon looks funny in written text, but bear in mind it was spoken. And they do have a special style of speaking in sermons, you must have heard some things from the Knutby guys? The Bible quotes aren't exact, but it looks more like the 1917 version than the 2000.
Anyone else but me thinks it funny how they always leave out the really nasty parts of the Lot story? |
02-06-2005, 12:55 PM | #59 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Above you
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Quote:
I got tired of the story at about a week after the mediacoverage started. Have they figured out who killed who and why yet? I'd imagine Pingstkyrkan has their own version of the bible (Like Jehovas witness etc.) but I'm not sure (I'm not really a fan of organized religion (or should I say sects?) if you know what I mean), I don't have any Swedish bible to compare with though so I'm shooting a bit in the dark. I have to agree that they have a special style preaching the sermons, they use a whole lot of dramatical pauses, rethorical tricks and stuff that can't be put into writing. But some of his sentences was complete nonsense, they didn't make any sense what so ever.. Maybe stagefright so he's rambling sometimes.
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- "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.." - "Religions take everything that your DNA naturally wants to do to survive and pro-create and makes it wrong." - "There is only one absolute truth and that is that there is only one absolute truth." Last edited by Cervantes; 02-06-2005 at 12:57 PM.. |
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02-06-2005, 01:06 PM | #60 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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the linked website is actually beyond belief. The only argument I can find for it being allowed to exist is that it will surely invite ridicule and scorn up[on its creators in all people who see it.
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
02-06-2005, 02:01 PM | #61 (permalink) | ||
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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Quote:
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It seems to me that locking this guy up is going way overboard in an effort to protect minorities. Last edited by flstf; 02-06-2005 at 02:08 PM.. Reason: spelling |
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02-06-2005, 03:25 PM | #62 (permalink) |
Likes Hats
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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The translation looks okay to me. And if they want to lock him up for that they are going to have to lock up a LOT of people. The only action against homosexuals he's rousing is to go out and talk to them about Jesus. I know a guy with MS who is hounded by the local Jehova's who wants to exorcise the demons from his body. When is he going to get protection by the law?
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02-06-2005, 10:21 PM | #64 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Above you
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flstf; Man I wish i found that before translating the introduction myself.. Anywho. It seems the language has been polished a bit in the translation you supplied.
I guess he has the right to view homosexuality the way he want's to but to make his whole sermon about how sinfull and wrong it is, then going on blaming homosexuals for AIDS and other catastrophies is going too far. I agree that imprisoning him is going too far aswell but I don't think he should be allowed to get away with spreading this kind of misinformation either. Aside from the bible quotes his sermon is a madeup jumble of concealed hate, I have no reason thinking there shouldn't be any reprocussions for this guy.
__________________
- "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.." - "Religions take everything that your DNA naturally wants to do to survive and pro-create and makes it wrong." - "There is only one absolute truth and that is that there is only one absolute truth." |
02-08-2005, 03:36 PM | #65 (permalink) |
Oh dear God he breeded
Location: Arizona
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Holy shit. I just listened to a couple of the "hymes" from GHA. I can say that I honestly feel this man is all the proof I need that sometimes, all it takes is one bullet to make the world a better place. What a fucktard.
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Bad spellers of the world untie!!! I am the one you warned me of I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant. |
02-08-2005, 05:38 PM | #66 (permalink) |
Upright
Location: Athens, Ga
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What I personally find amusing are the people that claim the KJV is the "One True" Bible, when even the Greek "originals" we have can only be dated back to the 6th century or so. That and the fact that "literal interpretation" is an oxymoron.
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The door flew open. A Mongol warrior surged into the hut like a savage wind. Two children ran screaming to their mother who was cowering wide eyed in the corner of the tiny room. A dog yelped. The warrior hurled his torch on to the still glowing fire, and then threw the dog on to it. That would teach it to be a dog. |
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country, fag, loving, sweden |
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