angeltek

the_marq

Well to be fair, there are Irish and Scottish languages that are still used today.

But what I think you are refering to is someone speaking "Canadian" due to slang words like "toque" or phrases that are distinctly Canadian such as "Double-Double" when ordering a coffee.

None of this defines a different language or even a dialect just a very simple regionalization.

__________________
The Truth:

Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to.

#3 in a series

Coppertop

I highly doubt Ebonics is a variation of English. Definitely a part of American. And you ever speak with someone from the Southern US?

Cynthetiq

My GPS device speaks.. and it has English UK and English US on it as language selections.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

superiorrain

We all speak and spell different thats all, so i guess that there is such a thing called american. There are two camps those that write english and those that write american english, and everyone falls into either side unless they can't write either. I leave to you to decided that the better language is english (or not whatever).

__________________
"The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible." - Arthur C. Clarke

World's King

We don’t speak English here. Trust me. We’re supposed to. That’s what we tell everyone. But we made up our own fucked-in-the-ass version called American. It’s a language of slang. Maybe one day it will be recognized as a real language… you never know, Ebonics was.

I have my degree in English… creative writing and poetry. Everything I learned in school was a far cry from what we actually speak. Pop culture has ruined that. Valley girl speak and hip-hop slang shoved our given language out the window. I don’t mind so much. We are a country built by people that wanted to express themselves in a different manner then the rest of the world. So, it would only make sense that we have our own language. No matter out fucked-in-the-ass it is.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

thinktank

I dont think that "American" is technically a language... but i've heard some insane words out of people's mouths in my lifetime... in effect "American" is probably nothing more than "english with slang."

Pip

Potaaaatoes or poteitos? Colour or color? Small differences, but annoying for those with English as a foreign language. I was taught British English spelling, grammar and pronounciation in school, but most of the English I hear and read is American English, in movies and on the Internet. It all gets messed up in my head and the result is the dreaded mid-atlantic accent. Neither this nor that. Bleh.
George Bernard Shaw said that "England and America are two countries divided by a common language".

Suave

They're different versions of the same language. People who say that "American" is a language are probably either elitist Englanders (I may have just made up a word there), or egotistical Americans.

spindles

Without "Australian English", Americans would not be able to kill g'day by using a long gee sound at the beginning

I think this is no different to any other regional dialect.

__________________
who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

angeltek

fair enough I suppose, however, the majority of canadians watch alot of american television, listen to alot of music from the states too. I talk with at least 40 americans a day (I work in a call center), and aside from accents there is really not too much of a difference. I think if anything you could say it was a different dialect. and accents. Most of the slang that is used in the states is used up here too, beleive me.

Maybe we speak american too...or maybe americans are just speaking canadian?

vox_rox

[QUOTE=The Original King]We don’t speak English here. Trust me. We’re supposed to. That’s what we tell everyone. But we made up our own fucked-in-the-ass version called American. It’s a language of slang. Maybe one day it will be recognized as a real language… QUOTE]

That's funny, and I always suspected. But really, every country that speaks english has a different take on it, may just not as aggresively fucked-up as American.

I remember reading a sentence once that stated: You might be Canadian if you understand the folowing sentence

"Pass me a serviette, I spilled some poutine on the chesterfield."

So, Canadian is just as bastardized, we just have the eternal struggle between England and France living in every sentence.

However, we do know how to spell! Flavour has a U init. Axe ends with an E. Come on, don't be so fuggin' lazy!

Peace,

Pierre

greytone

You may notice that Websters is a dictionary of "American English." It does not include the back compartment of a car as one of the definitions of a "boot," and a "torch" is not a battery operated device. This is slightly more than a dialect. A dialect is differences in the spoken language between regions or the variety of a language used by members of a social class or occupational group. I still don't buy that it is enough to make it a seperate language.

__________________
I was there to see beautiful naked women. So was everybody else. It's a common failing.
Robert A Heinlein in "They Do It With Mirrors"

Rlyss

In my degree whenever we were to analyze a sample of English they were always careful to specify whether it was Australian English, American English, Singapore English (Singlish) or Malaysian English (Manglish). Any sample marked as simply 'English' was considered English as it was spoken and pronounced in England.

There are enough differenes in the languages for a push to consider them totally separate languages but my personal opinion is that rather than calling the differences 'language differences' (or calling them totally separate languages with the same roots), I think it's more appropriate to call them regional differences.

American English's regional differences are the Boston or New York ways of talking (like George Costanza or Mayor Quimby from The Simpsons), or saying 'y'all' in the South, and Australian English's differences are things like 'pint' in the South and 'schooner' in the north (both meaning a large glass of beer) and numerous phonetic differences (producing vowels slightly differently).

Every English-speaking country has its differences in lexical items and pronounciation (New Zealand's an obvious one with their 'fush and chups') but they're still all part of New Zealand English or Australian English or American English. The differences in how Americans speak and how Australians speak are similar to these regional differences, since it's all English and the differences are minimal so it's not all mutually unintelligible. That's why I think that it's all the English language and that American English and Australian English and New Zealand English are regional variations and not actual languages.

But it's a bit of a sticky situation because there is still a lot of debate about where to draw the line between dialect and language and regional variation of a same language and whether the same root language should be a factor and whether people can understand each other should be considered... all sorts of fun stuff.

But I do believe that Singlish and those sorts of languages should be considered their own languages, not under the English umbrella and not under the Mandarin, Japanese, Malay etc. umbrellas either. Singlish has its own fuctional grammar and its own language rules and although it's got bits from English and bits from Singaporean languages I think it's more than just a creole.

shakran

The general litmus test for whether 2 people are speaking different languages is whether or not they can understand each other without taking classes.

I don't have to take UKEnglish101 in order to understand that a rubber in england has nothing to do with sex. And some guy in England doesn't need to take USAEnglish101 to understand that a pair of boots does not require one to have a mid-engined car

If swapping out a few words were all it took to make a seperate language, then there would be Wisconsinish, because for some reason the weirdos around the Green Bay area have been known to call water fountains "bubblers."




Oh, and "ebonics" is just a pathetic attempt to legitimize crappy english skills.

Lockjaw

Is it not possible though that as more centuries pass that the languages could diverge into totally different unique languages?
Take the different branches of the Romantic languages.
Heck just look at how hard Old English is to comprehend now to the average person. Now extend that to another 200-300 years and it could very well be another language entirely compared to good old "American" English.

miyamotomusashi

Arguments for both have been made but the main question is what do you consider to be justification for a language. Look at www.ethnologue.com, www.ancientscripts.com, www.omniglot.com. The generaly accepted definitions of languages change. If you have a good english dictionary that covers English english and Amerian english look and see that some word have different meaning, pronunciations, spellings, and some even are absent. these pages show many of the differeces http://www.scit.wlv.ac.uk/~jphb/american.html
http://www.accomodata.co.uk/amlish.htm
http://www.edupass.com/english/dictionary.phtml

Ishmal

the aussies and canadians have started a conversation kinda like this in the Canadian forum...

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=76408

its only KINDA like this...

__________________
"Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular."

Suave

No, that's highly unlikely. In the past it may have been likely, but with our widespread telecommunications and so-called "global community", languages will become closer together, if anything.

spindles

I didn't realise I lived in Sydney, Wisconsin

__________________
who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

tropple

No. Sadly there is a UK variant of ebonic, as well, spoken by youth groups of about identical mentality as the one who speak it here.

__________________
+++++++++++Boom!

alansmithee

[QUOTE=vox_rox]Man, I was around Toronto around a couple years ago with a friend of mine and we went to a KFC for lunch. He asked for mashed potatoes and gravy as a side, and the girl at the register looked at us like we were crazy. They did have that poutine stuff (wasn't half bad). Up until then, I didn't realize I was in a foregn country. The accents weren't even that bad, and there didn't seem to be much different slang than in the US (Michigan specifically). But from reading alot, I have gotten in the habit of spelling colour and a few similar words in the British way. Just doesn't look right otherwise.

Charlatan

There is no difference between what is spoken in the US, Canada and the United Kingdom. It is called English. Sure there are regional differences in accent and usage and there are spelling differences... but when it is spoken it is still called English and not "American".

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Vincentt

English, although I have heard many people call it "American."
"I only speak American"
"Learn to speak American"
Languages change with time.
I still think of Ebonics as a lawyer’s triumph, not a language.

WillyPete

Even in the UK we have different variants.

Try speaking to a Glaswegian when in Scotland. Not Gaelic, but english. You won't understand a thing.

Same for a broad Geordie accent (Newcastle) or a cockney. "Have a butcher's at this then eh?" (butcher's = butcher's hook = look)

The funny part is when I've had American's try and justify changes as a means of making the language more efficient, as with words such as 'color' and 'honor'.
I just ask them where they get water from or how the ascend a high rise building: Faucet vs tap & elevator vs lift.

As for trunk/boot:
the stagecoach had a big box or trunk strapped on the back to hold passengers' luggage, and this was called the boot, apparently from the French word boîte, meaning "box".

See, it's not the first time you yanks have renamed something because of a perceived french background! Freedom fries anyone?

dr3n

A lot of English isnt actually English anyway - It was only put into one standard form (as we all know it) during the creation of the Church Of England during Henry VIII reign as he wanted a bible that everyone could read.. Up until that point most of the UK (where English was formed) was abound with many regional dialects (from where our great accents orginiate) that differed from area to area.. So there was NO real English.. Proof of this is found in that a good majority of the words still used here in the UK and other English speaking parts of the world are actually a mish mash of languages all rolled up into one..

All the best swear words are saxon tho... Bollocks, Shit and Twat being some of my personal faves..

__________________
---===: Safe As Fuck Clart.. You Knows It.... :==---

raeanna74

If you look into the word etymologies of many of our 'English' words you'll find that nearly half of them come from German or French sources. Our language is an outgrowth of the multicutural roots of our country.

I do find it frustrating when in college I would spell things such as colour instead of color and my teacher, including my English teachers would mark off points for mispellings. I was so pissed at one teacher for marking several wrong that I copied the page in Webster's dictionary and took it to them to prove that it could be spelled that way. He said that since it was only a rough draft I could still do it HIS way and I would get it marked wrong if I didn't do it his way. Grrrr

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

d*d

if slang and dialects were all that was needed to distinguish one language from the other then nobody in england speaks english, we have such a vast difference in pronounciations, slang words, and grammar across our country (there are even places that call trousers pamnts which i thought was an american term). Americans spell a couple of words differently but they are speaking english, for a language to be truly different it must stem from another root or have a significantly different grammer construct (lots of french, norse and germaenic words in english but it's still english).

Janey

I had no idea that 'double-double' was only Canadian! far out. I think that toque is as real a word as let's say beret for a type of hat, not slang.

I do know that Gaelic is the Irish language still in use (other than English) in Ireland, and that this is what was brought to Scotland by early Irish settlers, and is still in use there today. (i went to Queen's - we get indoctrinated in the Scot's history).

I think most of the 'American' language is a dialectic regionalization. I watched Trading Spouses last night which placed a Californian woman (who basically speaks like a Canadian) into a Cajun home. I could barely understand the English being spoken by the Cajun family, and they even put up subtitles. I wonder if their French is very much different?

Janey

Englander is actually a German word. Means 'an English person'.... From England that is...

Janey

[QUOTE=vox_rox]Hey! I understand that:

For our American/British/Australian friends

Serviette is a napkin (I always use this because to me a napkin is too reminiscent of sanitary napkins)

Poutine: frenchfries with cheese curds and gravy ( I add ketchup too) (for Americans, french fries is now known as freedom fries - long live the battle!)

Chesterfield: couch or sofa. In my experience, chesterfields were always mod-like 1960's vintage in style, while couches and sofas bring to mind large overstuffed pieces of furniture that are hard to move...

angeltek

I am Canadian, and I have never used the word chesterfield before, nor serviette. However, I do know what they mean.

I suppose if you want to go on regional differences, you could say that In canada as well there are regional differences. Like People from quebec, or Newfies in the maritimes. In saskatchewan (which is a province in the middle of canada) we have people who have a bit of that old world accent to them, then there is the "normal speaking" which is waht I think most people sound like, and then there is the people who talk with the heavy slurs and sould like they are talking through their teeth, which seems to be a large portion of the North American Indian population here.

So basically it sounds like most people are on the same page here. American is more of a regional difference, and not a different Language.

Janey

Twat is a swear word? it was my bf's (now hubbie) pet name for me... only when we were alone tho.

hmmmm

d*d

We call that Wife Swap in english

Janey

In college? did you ask the administration for a refund? This is not very good customer service. Imagine a professor treating you like that? Can you imagine your doctor treating you like that? I would have been so indignant.

SaltPork

It stuns me that there can be so much discussion about the variations of the English language. Further, I am amused by any assertion that Americans has detroyed English as a language. Would you make the same argument that Cubans has destroyed Spanish? The Spanish they speak is different from the Spanish spoken in Spain. Are regional differences not allowed? Is language not supposed to evolve and change? If it's not supposed to change at all, then why don't we all speak the same language? Even within the same country there are variations on the naitve tongue. Take China for example, with billions of people it should be no surprise that there are variations.

I don't think that Americans have done any worse to English than the Australians have, nor do I think that Central Americans have destroyed Spanish. The languages grew and changed as was appropriate for the region. If you want to tell me that I speak American or American English, then that's fine, just make sure you call your English: English English or British English or Australian English.

__________________
It was like that when I got here....I swear.

miyamotomusashi

What is most funny is that I have read that American English as it is spoken in Boston is closer to what English English was in London in the 1600s then London English today.

On China:
here is a list of languages spoken in mordern china that have over 10,000,0000 speaker. The (#) is the millions of speaker.

CHINESE, GAN (21); CHINESE, HAKKA (26); CHINESE, JINYU (45); CHINESE, MANDARIN (867); CHINESE, MIN BEI (10); CHINESE, MIN NAN (26); CHINESE, WU (77); CHINESE, XIANG (36); CHINESE, YUE (52); ZHUANG, NORTHERN (10);

Chinese is a language family that is a subset of the Sino-Tibetan language family. It is not and has never been a single language. There are over 200 languges spoken in modern china. Excluding dialects some of which are mutually unintelligible. Also the vairiation is decreasing (In part do to writen form, mandarin, and telecomuncation) meaning that the languages at previous times were even less similar and related. The variation of chinese languages is based in part that they did not derive from 1 mother tongue or nation. Emperor Qin was the first person to make china a single nation beofore then it was as homogenious as western europe in the 1400s.

Janey

Ditto for Newfoundland English.

warrrreagl

I work in higher education. Here is an exact reproduction of an e-mail I got yesterday from the Dean of Instruction's secretary concerning directions to an off-campus meeting.

FROM THE SCHOOL TAKE HWY 431 WHICH TURN INTO BROAD STREET

CONTINUE ON BROAD STREET GO PASS 13TH STREET

How is this allowed? There is a mindset in America that believes if you are poor or ethnic, then you are excused from basic language skills. And therefore, the otherwise bright people who need more work in their basic language skills don't bother with it anymore, since everybody looks the other way.

I'm outraged that an employee of a college sends out printed material like this. I've heard people say that the first step toward fixing a problem is admitting there is a problem. Unfortunately, I think most contemporary Americans actually believe that when a problem is identified and admitted, then all responsibility for its correction is abdicated.

Hyperactive kids are expected to behave until they are "diagnosed." Then, they're excused because they "have a problem." The same is true with language butchery.

__________________
Living is easy with eyes closed.

rockogre

I think we speak American Continent, not North or South American, here in southwest Oklahoma. No way is it even aproximately England English as defined by most scholars. My day to day conversations with the local populace seem to contain words from several other languages, including those of many American Indian tribes. More and more Spanish, or Mexican words are used daily in my little town as our Mexican population grows. Then of course we have the regional things like ya'all, some of ya'all, and all of ya'all that all of us in the South understand and use daily.

I think that you speak Canadian, or Austrailian, or whatever only defined by regional words that have crept into our shared English language. And we mostly all understand each other, yet I didn't grow up knowing what a Sheila was anymore than someone in Australia grew up knowing what a hoecake was. (I could be wrong on the hoecake thing). This far south Canadian only seems to be defined by the comic use of the term eh. Other than a difference in regional terms we speak exactly the same language.

I do agree with Warrrreagl on the butchery thing. No matter what words we use, we should all strive to use them correctly. I get an immediate first impression from someones use of language, especially when it is written. How this user could be the Dean of anything is beyond me. I have never met him yet my impression of him has already been lowered.

__________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom