wonderwench

How Sheriff Joe Arpaio runs his shop in Arizona:

(sent to me by a friend - no link available)

SaltPork

On the one hand it's funny, on the other....nope, still funny. That's how jail should be. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

I will say that there must be some danger in them being out in that type of heat, hopefully they keep an eye on their water intake.

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It was like that when I got here....I swear.

Halx

This guy runs things how I feel they should be run.

That's all there is to it.

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User Name

I don't have anything against the way Joe Arpaio runs the prison, except for the political propaganda in the form of Newt Gingrich tapes.

amonkie

I see the gangs occasionally while driving around town. I think he does a good job of trying to convince people jail is not a place to fall back on. I met him in person once, and he appeared to have no sympathy for those who end up under his supervision.

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chez_dork

I agree with Halx. Nothing more to say except that his book was great.

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wonderwench

It's not his job to have sympathy for them - it is to ensure they serve their sentences and prepare them to re-enter society so that they do not return to prison.

User Name

This Wikipedia article brings up an interesting point in regard to Joe Arpaio's methodology

I realize that it would be impractical to have a separate jail for people who aren't (yet) convicted of a crime, but it's not right for people who are presumed innocent to undergo such harsh treatment.

KMA-628

Maybe something like this will keep inmates from being institutionalized.

Make them beg to get out and maybe the number of repeat customers will drop.

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ARTelevision

Yes, I've heard him interviewed a couple of times.
hard time.
fits crimes.

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Journeyman

I report. You decide. *snicker*

MooseMan3000

More importantly:

When the majority of people in jail haven't been convicted of a crime, and the majority of those that HAVE were only convicted of minor crimes, how can you justify that sort of treatment?

Do you tie your kids up and leave them outside when it's 120 degrees out when they break something?


Or maybe it will make them resent the system even more and strive only to disobey it. When they are merely punished, not helped to change, how CAN they change?

TFPers especially should know how difficult it is to change one's self. Think about how hard it is to change your image with friends or family. Then imagine if, instead of your comfortable, middle class upbringing, you lived your entire life below the poverty line, where the only people who lived comfortably were the drug dealers and pimps. And nobody ever showed you that there was another way. Then you get punished for doing the only thing you know. What are you going to do? Kill yourself?


To listen to replies like "they deserve it" or "it fits the crimes" frankly sickens me. Imagine your child or husband or wife or significant other or grandmother got accused of a crime and was in the jail awaiting his or her trial. You might feel a little differently about it then.


TFP is one of the places that I look to find reasonable, caring people. This thread makes me wonder.

JStrider

sounds pretty lame that the people awaiting trial are having to go through that...


but it also is the way prison should be...it definently shouldnt be a place a person wants to go...

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skier

What if you lived your entire life living from meal to meal, joining gangs to stay alive. .
You commit a crime. You go to a place where you get three solid meals a day, a warm, comfortable place to sleep, and a lot of your friends are already there to catch up with. Gang hierachy you are already familiar with, and you stay out of trouble. Jail is just as good as life outside, plus you get cable TV. Going to jail is no longer a punishment. It's just a fact of life- perhaps even a initiation ritual to be a veteran gang member with respect. I feel if you are guilty of abusing the rules society has put in place to protect itself, and are stupid enough to get caught, you should be punished. Bad action = punishment Good action = reward.

A criminal deserves to have certain rights and priviledges revoked. When there is enough motivation to stay on the right side of the law, people will think twice about robbing that convenience store, or falsifying documents, or shooting that guy in the bar. We are not lucky to live in the society we have in america. It was brought about by the sweat and tears of many honest people believing in sacrificing a little to benefit the greater good. Those who prey upon that ideal should face more serious consequences than they do today.

Your last paragraph annoys me a little. You make accusations based on an emotional reaction. If my grandma stole money from an ATM or abused animals she is just as guilty as any other person out there. Like it or not, she should recieve the same punishment as the rest.

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BigGov

Long ago I used to think "wow, this guy is cool! I wish more people were like him!"

Then I heard him talk, how extreme he is, and the lengths of which he wants to punish people.

I'm no longer an Arpaio supporter.

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Halx

Just 'cause the TFP is a mature, understanding community doesn't mean we're all bleeding heart liberals.

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Macheath

Nice one Sheriff, what does that teach your inmates - the value of a cheap shot?

I'd just like to see some clean living, straight down the middle political moderates playing hardball. Hard but fair. I'm sure plenty of sheriffs fit that discription but nobody writes about them.

More entertaining to do articles that perpetuate the stereotypes of silly airy-fairy liberals and crazy, rock hard God fearing conservatives.

Wax_off

No doubt that the prison system needs some reform. Making it a less pleasant place might be one of those needed reforms. But I think the #1 reform should be to reduce or eliminate jail time for victimless crimes like drug abuse. #2 should be to put more emphasis on rehabilitation, not punishment. Reduce the recidivism(sp?) rate with both a carrot and a stick, not just a stick.

And having non-convicted detainees do hard labor is straight up illegal.

NotMinus

I was the 'victim' of an armed robbery at my old job. The people that held us up were on parole and they are now building a case on one of them with DNA evidence for a more serious crime. I know one is serving three years and will probaly do 18 months, I haven't followed up on the other because his case may actually go for trial instead of a plea bargin. I think they are going to serve their time, get out with a head full of knowledge on how to do an armed robbery right and kill someone the next time. I don't think the prison system is hard enough.

cosmoknight

In the town where I work the parks are always spotless. Curbs are painted same as the light poles etc. The grass is neatly clipped in the parks and every year the town is decorated for the upcoming holidays. All this labor is done by the orange shirts, mostly kids doing community service. Criminals should give back to the community in the form of labor.

As long as their jail conditions meet Federal guidlines than its fine with me. I like the point he made about our soldiers who put up with worse in Iraq. Its time punishment meant something again in jails. All to much in the way of pity gets directed at convicts and not nearly enough at the victims and the community they terrorized.

mystmarimatt

I'm still undecided, while I agree the prison system needs to be reformed, and much of the luxury of jails taken away, I think this guy's just a tidge bit of an extremist, and some of the stuff certainly borders on cruel and unusual punishment.

I don't like the use of the Newt Gingrich videos much.

But i think the idea of the pink uniforms was creative, and apparently really successful, or so I've heard.

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Memnoch

Thank you, Hal. You said exactly what I was thinking.



Your statement, for me, is personally ironic on two levels. First of all, I have an uncle named Moose. Secondly, and on a more serious note, that same said uncle is in jail. I do insist that he be forced to do the 3 years given to him, and certainly in no better conditions than anyone else convicted of a fatal hit and run. I have no sympathy for him, not even a bit. He committed a crime, he killed someone, and didn't report it. He deserves to sit in that cell until he comes to terms with the facts that he a) killed someone and b) was a coward. If he can't realize that by the time his three years is up, I hope they find a way to keep him in there longer. He may be my uncle, but if he can't take responsibility for, much less learn from, his massive moral misjudgments, I don't want him to be a part of my society. That's not being uncaring or unloving - quite the opposite. It's trying to care for and love my family, friends and fellow humans. The safety and solace of many citizens far surpasses the comforts of one criminal.

What most liberals don't understand is that the vast majority of the inmates in the prison system either can't or won't be "rehabilitated." Punishing them to an extent where they're going to fear going back to prison is one of very few alternatives we have. Frankly, the only problem I see with our prison system is that they're not hard enough on inmates. I agree that this particular sheriff may be on the more extreme side of things, but at the same time, I would feel safer if my state's prisons were run a little more like that and a little less like small, free apartments.

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lordjeebus

I think MooseMan's point is to emphasize that we shouldn't treat people in jail this way before they are convicted. Would you want a relative who is innocent of some crime to endure this before they have the opportunity to confirm their innocence in court?

Successful rehabilitation programs exist; for instance, I recommend reading about the Delancey Street Foundation (http://www.eisenhowerfoundation.org/...oots/delancey/ is their site, google can find you more information). Rehabilitation is a difficult thing to accomplish, and perhaps it is impossible for some. It involves a lot more than being nice to ex-cons and giving them what they want. But the successes of non-governmental organizations seems to suggest that careful design and implementation of such programs within the prison system is possible and desirable.

I still would be interested in comparing the recitivism rate of Arpaio's prisoners with those in other prisons -- if it has proven effectiveness I would not object to it so strongly. I do doubt that it could be as effective as a well-designed rehabilitation program, although it could conceivably do better than a cushy prison with neither true rehabilitation nor harsh punishment.

pinkie

Torturing is easier than reforming, and requires zero compassion. I have no respect for the guy, but I'm not a big fan of dicks, so...

Do you have evidence of this?

Being "hard" does nothing but break them as humans, and some of the prisoners were not sentenced, but were still waiting to be.

Hahaha... Extreme side? You mean like advocating torture? Small apartments? Give me a break.

I'm happy that systems try to reform. I believe this is the only way to change things.

billege

Works for me too.
I'm not in favor of beating prisoners or whatnot, but if jail is supposed to realign your attitude so you don't go out and do what you did, then jail should be a phsyc program. Right?

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mr sticky

I think prisoners should have to pay their own way. There should be a farm, a factory or some sort of business that pays for their jail time.

Once released, our prisoners make their way into a semi half way house, semi school. They get an education, job training and become established before we toss em out into the street.

That is more rehabilitation than three hots and a cot.

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jwoody

Everything you want to know about Tent City Jail but couldn't be arsed to google it.


and Sheriff Jo:

fhqwhgads

If you don't like it, don't come back.

Simple, to the point.

Astrocloud

Joe Arpaio is as corrupt as they come and an embarrassment to Arizona. If all you see is "America's Toughest Sherriff" and all the hooplah that comes with that -then you aren't really paying attention.

First there are the brain dead "investigations" conducted by Arpaio. This is just a small example. Many, many more exist -as there has been over ten years of this crap.

http://www.aztrib.com/index.php?sty=23162

Secondly, his incarceration methodology leaves something to be desired as people awaiting trial are sometimes murdered because his tent city does not offer security for the prisoners.

Lovely little appeal here:
http://www.mothersagainstarpaio.com/


Last but not least there is a little matter of some financial misdeeds -which is yet to be fully disclosed. (The reason that it isn't fully disclosed is because Arpaio chases out the county auditors when they come to his office).

http://www.arpaio.com/wwwboard/messages/11348.html


Finally, not everyone is so gung ho about Arpaio acting like the newest little Hitler in town. McCain is promoting a different Republican as sherriff.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issue...dougherty.html

redarrow

This pisses me off.

Cant they ship these prisoners to some remote pacific island?
Then tape it and run it as a new reality series.

KMA-628

Not everything has to be documented with footnotes, etc.

I like backing up assertions with proof as much as the next guy, but it doesn't have to be done every time.

There are many things in life that are understood/undisputed.

This fact represents one of those cases.

I don't think anyone in here would dispute the "repeat offender" fact unless they were trying to push a different agenda. Rehabilitation doesn't work in most cases, pure and simple.

If anything, the current jail situation helps the criminals become better criminals.

Also, I have a background in this. I have been there when we arrest a guy and he is out on the street before we even finished the paperwork. Or, he is out in less than a month for a serious offence. It is very frustrating and dis-heartening.

Talk to cops, they know. When driving down the streets they know most of the criminals by first name because they have arrested the same guy/girl over and over.

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PayUp

I dont think the people are there for random acts of genersoity and kindness, The are in Jail and its high time they are being treated like they are in jail. Dont break the law(get caught), dont go to jail.

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Seer666

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


This is the only part of the constitution I've never agreed with. Punishment, by it's very nature, HAS to be cruel and unusual, other wise it is not punishment. The only problem I ever had with old Joe is has has to go to easy on them because of all these fucking morons who seem to think felons should have more rights then their victoms. Most people in prison have a higher standard of living, with more space, more free time, and more privecy then most sailors on ships. You try to feed a person in prison some of the food we get carted in, and the humanitarin groups would be up in fucking arms. I kid you not, I've watch them bring on boxs and boxs of "food" stamp "Not fit for human consumption" on the side. Try and pass that shit off on a prison and see how many people start giving the goverment shit about that. But notice the lack of out cry for the people fighting to keep them safe.....

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mirevolver

I have voted for Sheriff Arpaio before and I will vote for him again this year. It is my opinion that he is the best sheriff in the country.

Crime in Phoenix has been on a steady decline and is surprisingly low given the fact that Phoenix is the fifth largest city in the country and our proximity to the Mexican border. Sheriff Arpaio is largely responsible for this.

If the prisions are made to be a hellish as possible, then those who don't wan't to go back will think twice before comitting a repeat offense.

And as a registered Republician in Arizona, I refused to sign the petition that would put McCain's name on the ballot for reelection. Those of us around here know that McCain's republician roots go only as far as his pro-life stance and the "R" next to his name. So if he's supporting another guy (Dan Saban), that leads me to question the political stance of Mr. Saban.

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Blackthorn

I find tfp to be full of caring, bright, warm, and understanding people. Those who aren't of that ilk are quickly dealt with in an appropriate fashion. That's what makes tfp a great place to hang out.

I also find that tfp is full of people who know right from wrong. Those who don't know right from wrong are again quickly dealt with in an appropriate fashion.

If you are a criminal, thug, malcontent, derelict, degenerate, or otherwise found to be involved in illegal activity then you should expect to be punished. These are people who know right from wrong and ya know what...they made the choice to engage in bad behavior. As a result they are being punished. Will they become disenfranchised to the point of "resenting the system" or feeling that they are being kept down? Perhaps. It's punishment. They are SUPPOSED to feel uncomfortable. They are not supposed to enjoy being in jail.

I've felt for a long time we need more jails. Raise my taxes and build me a bigger jail or two. I can drive through a few "hoods" in my locale and point out people selling crack cocaine on a street corner. They should be put in jail and I am willing to pay for their accomodations but they will be jail accomodations and they will be uncomfortable.

Are this guys methods extreme? From what I read here I think not but it also sounds like there could be more to the story. Bottom line is if you are thinking of engaging in criminal behavior in this jurisdiction then maybe you'll want to consider the consequences of your actions before you do so. You may end up enjoying a little quality time in the Arpaio Hilton where I'm sure you'll find accomodations suitable for a person who engages in delinquent behavior.

People know right from wrong. Let's not make excuses for those who choose to later.

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fckm

HAVE PEOPLE LOST THE ABILITY TO READ?!?!?! OR DO I HAVE TO CAPITALIZE EVERYTHING!?!?!
Read that again! "not yet convicted of a crime"!!!! He is punishing innocent people!!!
Don't you see something wrong with that?!?!?! How can you possible support someone who punishes the innocent?!?!?!? Has this country become so morally corrupt that innocent people can be tortured and no one gives a fuck!?!?

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Willy

I lived in Phoenix in the mid-90s and had a couple friends that had the opportunity to spend a week at tent city (DUI). They both said that it was a pretty shitty place to spend a week (don't think either of them did any labor though, one had a school release during the day) but neither thought it was cruel or unusual.

Arpaio has been doing this for something like 10 years.

Putting suspected criminals in jail is standard procedure. Unless they are in for mass murder or something, they can make bail and leave. Neither the convicted or unconvicted are being "tortured". Come on. Calling picking up trash in the road ditch wearing an orange jumpsuit "torture" is an insult to torture victims everywhere.

Does anyone know if unconvicted suspects go out on the chain gangs? or are you just assuming?

gondath

While I don't agree prisoners should be given everything they want in prison, I find this sheriff's methods inexcuseable in the extreme. For one, punishment has been proven time and time again to be no deterrent to crime whatsoever. If you don't believe me, go looking for studies. A great number of them have concluded the same: the system of harshly treating prisoners does nothing to prevent them from committing crimes.

Even if you could excuse his adding prisoners to chain gangs in ridiculously hot temperatures, there is no excuse for adding the innocent to the list. Arresting someone does not assume guilt. You are innocent until proven guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt. He has no right to make tenmporarily detained citizens work in his slave camps.

I do find it funny that he is trying to brainwash the prisoners with his own political agenda. Also, he seems willing to humiliate them by restricting their access to g-rated movies and the Disney channel. They are not children and should not be treated as such. There are no valuable lessons to be learned from kiddy movies and cartoons. I think he needs to examine whether he is trying to help society or just punish people he sees as beneath him.

As a final thought, studies have also been done showing that taking away recreation from prisoners makes them violent and unruly. I don't see any mention of that, except that the sheriff doesn't care if they die or not. Maybe he doesn't care about his officers either. The prisoners aren't going to restrict their violence to each other. His plan has too many flaws to be of any use. you can't approach crime with the attitude of fuck them all. I see it not only comes from the sheriff but some of the people on this board as well.

BigGov

The G-Rated movies thing can't really be argued with. The movies where you can gain the most from are those that are rated G. You don't learn any life lessons from The Boondock Saints, Scarface, The Godfather, South Park: Bigger, Longer, & Uncut, or any other big name "adult" movie. It's a punishment, you committed a crime, you lose a luxury. (And since you wonder in the same comment if he's helping society, he's giving the society free labor, and improving society with his "slave labor")

Meanwhile, all this analysis about violence inside the prisons, creating such a dangerous environment, I haven't seen or heard much of that. Meanwhile I've seen on my different television programs where Arpaio walks through the prisons talking with inmates and not having any problems. Studies are great and all, but how about Arpaio's prisons?

Also, people can approach crime with the attitude of fuck them all. That's perfectly acceptable because people are different, if you go one way and try to rehabilitate and release, you're going to have some that just won't change and will come right back. If you just punish, some will leave, and then fight to the death to never go back. And in the middle you have people from jails from completely opposite ideas that never go back. Everyone is different, trying to find a catch-all for every single criminal will never happen.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Seer666

Show me where it says that the people waiting for trial are out on the chain gangs and I'll consed the point. However, most people waiting for trial tend to have lawers, and I don't think that any lawer worth a shit would stand by for there being put on the chain gangs untill after they are tried and found quilty. And as for the rest, IT'S PRISON AND NOT MEANT TO BE A FUN PLACE TO HANG OUT. So they can suck up a couple months of the weather channel and pink underwear. If they get out, then I am sorry they were put there in the first place, and if they stay, well, make them never want to come back. If the courts deside that a person needs to stay in prison without bail while waiting for trial, then that is not the sherifs call. He can't change the way a whole prison is run for the sake of a few people.

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