Holier than thou - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

kutulu · 06-24-2004, 11:17 AM

There is a huge difference between putting blame on someone and recognizing that a pattern of poor judgement led to something happening.

http://www.soar99.org/info.html

Quote:

What to do to Reduce the Risk of a Sexual Assault
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't leave your beverage unattended or accept a drink from an open container, or a stranger, or someone you don't trust.
When you go to a party, go with a group of friends. Arrive together, watch out for each other, and most important.....leave together.
Be aware of your surroundings at all times.
Don't allow yourself to be isolated with someone you don't know or trust.
Think about the level of intimacy you want in a relationship and clearly state your limits.
Above all else.....trust your instincts!
And remember....even if you are cautious, you may still become the victim of rape. WHATEVER you do to survive the assault is the RIGHT thing to do

SecretMethod70 · 06-24-2004, 01:16 PM

You know, I was going to post a (fairly long) cliff's notes version of some information showing strong evidence rooted in biological anthropology that rape is, in fact, a crime of sex moreso than violence (the statistics as well as rapist interviews, when put together, show this quite clearly), but frankly it would simply take a lot of time. So, instead, I'll simply recommend that people go out and read the book The Dark Side of Man: Tracing the Origins of Male Violence by Michael P. Ghiglieri, Ph. D. He is a protege of Jane Goodall and was a professor of anthropology when he wrote the book (I don't know if he still is).

Rape is, of course, not a woman's fault, and it's more important to seek ways to minimize rape than ways to tell women to act to avoid rape. However, doing so is difficult when the understanding of why rape is rooted into male behavior is inaccurate.

I'm not going to get into it, because there's a whole chapter dedicated to rape in his book, but I'll point out this much, which I think points in the right direction: Out of a sample of 1,634,000 US rape victims, a whole 77% were between the ages of 16 and 24 years old. This accounts for only 1/10 of the US population - the most fertile 1/10. Furthermore, only 14.8% of US rapists use a weapon, and only 5.9% use a gun. 25% commit no physical violence, despite using threats. And the use of a weapon raises the success rate of rapes only 9%

Anyways, if you care about the subject, I recommend the book.

kutulu · 06-24-2004, 01:29 PM

It's also interesting to look at repeat victim statistics. Are vitcims more likely, less likely, or equally likely to be victimized a second time compared to people who haven't been vitimized becoming victims for the first time? If victims play no role whatsoever you'd expect the difference to fall within the margin of error. If they are higher than they are for people who have never been victims than it has to say something about the person's ability to spot warning signs. This goes for all types, not just rape victims.

brianna · 06-24-2004, 02:16 PM

SecretMethod70: i've heard of the book and think it probably does have some merit, though i do find it dangerous to blame our action too much on biology. another great book on this subject is, "sperm wars: the science of sex", by robin baker (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846).

kutulu: of course there are outside economic, educational and psychological factors that make one woman more likely to be raped than another. I don't think anyone is claiming that rape victims are always chosen completely at random. however this still does not support the theory that skantly clad women are more likely to be raped than their more conservatively dressed counterparts, and honestly, even if it did I think it would be relativly unimportant information. If a man is out to rape a woman i seriously doubt he will be detered by a few more buttons or a longer shirt. I don't think women should have to desexualize themselves in an effort to avoid being assaulted but if an individual truely feels that is nessasary then she is fully capable of making her clothing decision on her own without the help of a man.

I have no desire to endlessly debate weather a v-neck top is more or less likely to get me raped than a crewneck or a turtleneck, even if men were making their rape victim selections based solely on how sexy the women are dressed there would still be absolutely no way to read their minds and determine what outfits are good girl choices and which ones scream "rape me!" if we want to diminish rape in our society we need to focus on the perpetrators, not the victims.

SecretMethod70 · 06-24-2004, 03:30 PM

brianna, I think we probably all agree for the most part and that it's just an issue of semantics. While I don't buy the "rape is strictly an act of violence" argument - there's too much anthropological evidence otherwise - I don't think that it means instead of addressing perpetrators we should address victims. I think the main point trying to be made is simply that, just like anything else, one can put themselves at greater risk for anything. Discounting the totally random, broad daylight occurances and such, there is certainly a way to be more careful about rape - some of which are outlined above. Do I think women should stop wearing what they would like to wear? No. But I do think that it is important to be aware of the SEXUAL side of rape and that sending out an *overt* sexual signal can (not will, but can) put one at greater risk. Simply put, I just think it's important that people are on their toes, not that they necessarily change their behavior. Hence the difference between understanding what a victim to do to minimize risk, and blaming the victim.

As a side note, I have heard of that book and it does look interesting. I remember not long ago watching a special on, I believe, the learning channel about a similar topic and it was very intriguing. Killer sperm, I tell ya...some interesting stuff

Oh and, as a further aside, and as an attempt to get this thread back on topic, I think the main issue was clouded by the example given in the thread starter's post. (Not the thread starter's fault, just the way it happened). Whatever it may be - putting on a bra, exercising more, watching a show you don't like - I think it's important to understand that relationships are give and take. I don't see anything wrong with a person kindly requesting something of their partner because it makes them uncomfortable, no matter how trivial it may seem to the partner. If something is trivial to one person but has meaning for the other, I think it's important to be willing to seek out compromises. As someone suggested regarding the bra, if the issue is that bras are uncomfortable for her, well maybe it's good to go with her to find a comfortable bra. Then, you're both comfortable with the situation. Or, using another example, sometimes a woman may look at a man, or vice cersa, and say "you're going out in THAT?" I don't think there's anything wrong with this, and I do think it's rather immature for a person (and both sexes do do this) to assert their individuality about something that is otherwise trivial simply because someone doesn't agree with them. If one person doesn't like another outfit, or article of clothing, and the other has no special reason to be wearing it, then compromises should be sought.

There's so much oversensitivity to indivualism that people are forgetting how to compromise and how to take another person's feelings into account. If your girlfriend thinks a shirt is ugly on you, don't wear it around her. If you are uncomfortable with your girlfriend not wearing a bra, she should be willing to at least EXPLORE possibilities to make you BOTH comfortable.

Of course, all this applies to relationships that go beyond the superficial status of so many today. This regards relationships between two people that are seriously searching for someone to love, not someone to have some good sex with for a few months. If all you're looking for is sex and no commitment or serious relationship, then by all means be as picky and individual as you want. But if you wnt a relationship that works and has the potential to last, both people need to be prepared to make compromises on what may seem to be the most trivial things. Everyone has their pet peeves, and most are really stupid.

06-24-2004, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Menoman
Wearing a bra or not wearing a bra couldnt be a choice that your feelings tell you is something that will change yourself.

It's like Ohhh, which Tshirt will I wear today fa la la

that's really besides the point. the point is she's choosing to not wear a bra. and it bothers you. that's fine. but what I am saying is that it's her choice, although it's great for you to express your feelings. now the choice is still and always was in her hands whether to start wearing a bra or to continue to not wear one. the feelings she may have are "i feel good when i don't wear a bra", therefore, she makes the choice to continue not wearing one. She could change by accepting the way you feel and start wearing bras. but to her, it may not be that big of a deal, she does not see it the way you do.
Just ask yourself, is this issue worth hanging onto or would you like her to be her and be content and just let it go? I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you do pressure her or show her too much discomfort with this, that will effect you, her, and your relationship together. Ask yourself why it bothers you so, and contimplate that to see if it's something that you want to affect you.

Menoman · 06-24-2004, 10:08 PM

I understand what your saying :::OshnSoul:::

Would you agree that she should however make an attempt to make me happy by wearing one at least most of the time, out of respect for my feelings and making me comfortable?

(Funny that my last post was deleted for reasons unforeseen to me)

SecretMethod70 · 06-25-2004, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Menoman

(Funny that my last post was deleted for reasons unforeseen to me)

hmm, odd, sounds like a server glitch if you didn't get a PM about it. I doubt you posted something that would have been deleted. *shrug* Sorry

ladyadmin · 06-25-2004, 04:47 AM

Once I went on a date with this guy, it was only our second date and he proceeded to tell me that he didn't like lipstick much and noticed I wore some on our first date. He told me he'd prefer I not wear lipstick if he's going to kiss me. This to me is just wrong..

I am my own person, I don't have to wear or not wear certain things because one person tells me they don't like something I do. It might be different if I was actually dating the person to do that out of respect but if you can't accept me exactly as I am, pack your bags and move outta my way!

SecretMethod70 · 06-25-2004, 07:57 AM

On the second date, you're right, that is unacceptable.

06-24-2004, 01:16 PM	#42 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	You know, I was going to post a (fairly long) cliff's notes version of some information showing strong evidence rooted in biological anthropology that rape is, in fact, a crime of sex moreso than violence (the statistics as well as rapist interviews, when put together, show this quite clearly), but frankly it would simply take a lot of time. So, instead, I'll simply recommend that people go out and read the book The Dark Side of Man: Tracing the Origins of Male Violence by Michael P. Ghiglieri, Ph. D. He is a protege of Jane Goodall and was a professor of anthropology when he wrote the book (I don't know if he still is). Rape is, of course, not a woman's fault, and it's more important to seek ways to minimize rape than ways to tell women to act to avoid rape. However, doing so is difficult when the understanding of why rape is rooted into male behavior is inaccurate. I'm not going to get into it, because there's a whole chapter dedicated to rape in his book, but I'll point out this much, which I think points in the right direction: Out of a sample of 1,634,000 US rape victims, a whole 77% were between the ages of 16 and 24 years old. This accounts for only 1/10 of the US population - the most fertile 1/10. Furthermore, only 14.8% of US rapists use a weapon, and only 5.9% use a gun. 25% commit no physical violence, despite using threats. And the use of a weapon raises the success rate of rapes only 9% Anyways, if you care about the subject, I recommend the book. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

06-24-2004, 03:30 PM	#45 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	brianna, I think we probably all agree for the most part and that it's just an issue of semantics. While I don't buy the "rape is strictly an act of violence" argument - there's too much anthropological evidence otherwise - I don't think that it means instead of addressing perpetrators we should address victims. I think the main point trying to be made is simply that, just like anything else, one can put themselves at greater risk for anything. Discounting the totally random, broad daylight occurances and such, there is certainly a way to be more careful about rape - some of which are outlined above. Do I think women should stop wearing what they would like to wear? No. But I do think that it is important to be aware of the SEXUAL side of rape and that sending out an overt sexual signal can (not will, but can) put one at greater risk. Simply put, I just think it's important that people are on their toes, not that they necessarily change their behavior. Hence the difference between understanding what a victim to do to minimize risk, and blaming the victim. As a side note, I have heard of that book and it does look interesting. I remember not long ago watching a special on, I believe, the learning channel about a similar topic and it was very intriguing. Killer sperm, I tell ya...some interesting stuff Oh and, as a further aside, and as an attempt to get this thread back on topic, I think the main issue was clouded by the example given in the thread starter's post. (Not the thread starter's fault, just the way it happened). Whatever it may be - putting on a bra, exercising more, watching a show you don't like - I think it's important to understand that relationships are give and take. I don't see anything wrong with a person kindly requesting something of their partner because it makes them uncomfortable, no matter how trivial it may seem to the partner. If something is trivial to one person but has meaning for the other, I think it's important to be willing to seek out compromises. As someone suggested regarding the bra, if the issue is that bras are uncomfortable for her, well maybe it's good to go with her to find a comfortable bra. Then, you're both comfortable with the situation. Or, using another example, sometimes a woman may look at a man, or vice cersa, and say "you're going out in THAT?" I don't think there's anything wrong with this, and I do think it's rather immature for a person (and both sexes do do this) to assert their individuality about something that is otherwise trivial simply because someone doesn't agree with them. If one person doesn't like another outfit, or article of clothing, and the other has no special reason to be wearing it, then compromises should be sought. There's so much oversensitivity to indivualism that people are forgetting how to compromise and how to take another person's feelings into account. If your girlfriend thinks a shirt is ugly on you, don't wear it around her. If you are uncomfortable with your girlfriend not wearing a bra, she should be willing to at least EXPLORE possibilities to make you BOTH comfortable. Of course, all this applies to relationships that go beyond the superficial status of so many today. This regards relationships between two people that are seriously searching for someone to love, not someone to have some good sex with for a few months. If all you're looking for is sex and no commitment or serious relationship, then by all means be as picky and individual as you want. But if you wnt a relationship that works and has the potential to last, both people need to be prepared to make compromises on what may seem to be the most trivial things. Everyone has their pet peeves, and most are really stupid. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

06-25-2004, 04:47 AM	#49 (permalink)
ladyadmin Insane	Once I went on a date with this guy, it was only our second date and he proceeded to tell me that he didn't like lipstick much and noticed I wore some on our first date. He told me he'd prefer I not wear lipstick if he's going to kiss me. This to me is just wrong.. I am my own person, I don't have to wear or not wear certain things because one person tells me they don't like something I do. It might be different if I was actually dating the person to do that out of respect but if you can't accept me exactly as I am, pack your bags and move outta my way! __________________ The Programmers' Cheer Shift to the left, shift to the right! Pop up, push down, byte, byte, byte!

06-25-2004, 07:57 AM	#50 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	On the second date, you're right, that is unacceptable. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

06-24-2004, 01:29 PM	#43 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	It's also interesting to look at repeat victim statistics. Are vitcims more likely, less likely, or equally likely to be victimized a second time compared to people who haven't been vitimized becoming victims for the first time? If victims play no role whatsoever you'd expect the difference to fall within the margin of error. If they are higher than they are for people who have never been victims than it has to say something about the person's ability to spot warning signs. This goes for all types, not just rape victims.

06-24-2004, 02:16 PM	#44 (permalink)
brianna Addict Location: nyc	SecretMethod70: i've heard of the book and think it probably does have some merit, though i do find it dangerous to blame our action too much on biology. another great book on this subject is, "sperm wars: the science of sex", by robin baker (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846). kutulu: of course there are outside economic, educational and psychological factors that make one woman more likely to be raped than another. I don't think anyone is claiming that rape victims are always chosen completely at random. however this still does not support the theory that skantly clad women are more likely to be raped than their more conservatively dressed counterparts, and honestly, even if it did I think it would be relativly unimportant information. If a man is out to rape a woman i seriously doubt he will be detered by a few more buttons or a longer shirt. I don't think women should have to desexualize themselves in an effort to avoid being assaulted but if an individual truely feels that is nessasary then she is fully capable of making her clothing decision on her own without the help of a man. I have no desire to endlessly debate weather a v-neck top is more or less likely to get me raped than a crewneck or a turtleneck, even if men were making their rape victim selections based solely on how sexy the women are dressed there would still be absolutely no way to read their minds and determine what outfits are good girl choices and which ones scream "rape me!" if we want to diminish rape in our society we need to focus on the perpetrators, not the victims.