Menoman

Inspired by another thread.

Have you ever nicely asked your SO to do something personal, like pulling an example off the top of my head (hehe :P ) putting on a bra when your going out into public.

She deliberatly doesn't do it, in what seems to be an attempt just to piss you off in a I'm my own person and you have zero control over me kind of way.

Also, if your a female, and you know what I'm talking about, you could elaborate on this, maybe, why it's done, why a girl might feel the need to slap the whole holier than thou approach in a guys face if he asks a question like that?

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tecoyah

It would seem to me, that the "Holier than thou" attitude you see, may very well be a mere perception of the observer. If indeed you are in a relationship in which one partner deliberately shows disrespect, protruding nipples would seem the least of worries.
It would also seem, to me, a serious lack of respect to force my own discomfort on the body of my partner. They are, after all, her breasts not mine.

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ShaniFaye

using your example

first...I wouldnt be with a guy that couldnt be comfortable with how ever I wanted to dress whenever I wanted to do it...that said I believe I do know how to dress appropriately ie..I wouldnt go to a wedding wearing no bra but I have no problem not wearing one around my parents OR his (Im a 42 DD) but it certainly wouldnt be in a see thru top the idea of our parents seeing me that way would give me the willies...although around our friends would be a different story...

second...I think any female that does something out of spite, which is what this actually is, should have her ovaries removed and a set of balls sewn on because she obviously wants to try to wear the pants in the relationship.

My nature is such that my behaviour/way I dress/etc doesnt usually need to be reproached, because I know how to behave/appear in most given situations BUT IF I goofed and my honey said something I most certainly wouldnt do the opposite just to get back at him....I did that too many times as a teenager with my parents and it backfired just about every time

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la petite moi

Errr...I think both sexes do it. It's not just females who want to feel superior, but males as well.

OFKU0

This has happened to me with an ex-girlfriend but rather with a supposed dress and not a bra.

You see, one day this girl bought a dress. It costed about $120. She showed it to me while holding it up before she put it on. I said it was nice. I thought it was a top, not a dress.

Now this girl had a great body. But the dress was form fitting and barely covered her ass. This didn't sit well with me. Not because I'm a prude but because I didn't like my girlfriend looking like a total cheap slut.

Long story short, we argued. She was set on wearing this dress out with a friend. Her little friend didn't seem to see why I was upset. So I told her friend to sit down beside me and told my girlfriend to sit on one of the stools in our kitchen. Yup you guessed it. I could see my girlfriends cooter clear as day. She prefered not wearing undies. I told her to pretend she was dancing. She wouldn't. So I pretended to be a drunken horny jerk trying to pull her in my direction. She resisted and in about 3 seconds the dress was completely over her ass and looking quite like the top I thought it was.

She didn't wear it out that night but would sarcastically patronize me with everything else she wore, even Sunday morning track pants. I dumped her about 3 months later because I couldn't deal with the immaturity. About 6 months after that I found out from a friend of hers that she was raped. I didn't enquire as to her attire.

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ninety09

Hmm, maybe I'm just weird, but I really don't see what's wrong with that. I would never tell my gf how to dress, and I wouldn't want her to tell me how to dress. Of course, I can give her my opinion, but in the end, it's up to her.

To me, you're the one with the "holier than thou" attitude when you tell her what she should or shouldn't wear.

billege

Boy. Oh boy, should you not have said that.

About 20 people should be busy typing out vehament declerations of why it's wrong to imply a woman's choice of clothing, no matter how revealing, does not invite or encourage rape.

I'll say it in one sentance:

A woman raped does not happen because she "invited it" in any way by what she was wearing; rape happens when someone (usually a man) decides to perpatrate an act of sexual violance against another.

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OFKU0

I wasn't suggesting she was responsible for being raped or for that matter asking for it and I fully understand the ramifications of such an act.

She did wear provocative clothing at times but mainly was more on the classy, sexy side rather than looking trashy. But at times she looked trashy. That's no excuse for rape, but then again those who choose to rape don't need excuses.

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Nisses

Billege: how about another sentence:

She was out dancing, some drunk guy spotted her easily because of the very attire and decided to follow her.

Not saying that it happened this way, not saying she asked for it, but you should realise this is not a perfect world, and combining all the aspects together, she was not helping her case.

If you always cross the road without looking, chances are higher you'll get run over some day

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Nazggul

I second this whole heartedly. That statement is completely naive.

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Menoman

Where do you guys live? It must be Perfectville, USA.

He obviously didnt mean she was inviting being raped, but the fact of the matter is, if you dress provacatively, Trashy or Classy. It's going to invite some Un-Wanted attention.

Which with the wrong person on the other side of the bar room dance floor can lead to bad things

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Menoman

Oh and if your g/f wanted to wear no bra/no panties and a skirt that was about 1/4 inch from her cooter to the local dance club. That'd be ok....


Before you say " She wouldnt do that anyway " Just play along with the same philosophy as you stated earlier.

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tecoyah

To be honest...were that the case, she wouldn't be my girlfriend much longer (and likely never would have been). But this is a far cry from not wearing a bra.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Menoman

I'm just saying that you won't tell her what to wear and what not to wear. There is no varying degree's of telling her what she can wear.

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:::OshnSoul:::

both genders do this, but not all. It's simply a rebellious act, but what they are trying to say is that they ARE their own person with their own choices. However, respecting people's requests and feelings are sometimes beneficial. Just like my husband and I share our feelings and respect feelings and requests, yet if that request is something that is against who we are, we can choose not to do it.
We can't change others- we only need to take care of changing ourselves if need be. And we can always need changing- we do it on a daily basis.
With choosing to not wear a bra, that may be okay and comfortable with her and she may see that there is no harm in it- for her or anyone else.

Menoman

Good point, is wearing a bra if your SO asks it, really changing who you are?

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Mehoni

I think you should try wearing a bra for a whole week. Then tell us if it feels good and comfy.

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There seem to be countless rituals and cultural beliefs designed to alleviate their fear of a simple biological truth - all organisms eventually perish.

water_boy1999

IMO, thinking that a woman can wear whatever she wants to and NOT have the unwanted attention is what seems completely naive to me. No, there is no excuse for rape, whatsoever.

I believe you should be able to wear what you want to, but if it affects the feelings of your SO, why not have some sort of compromise? I win't wear a speedo to the beach if you won't wear shirts that show off your nipples. I just think there is a level of respect you need to show your SO. You are naive if you think that you can wear a loose shirt and no bra and some perv isn't going to try and take a peek inside....shit, I would.

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Doh!!!!


-Homer Simpson

Yakk

I simply don't understand most of the human race.

If she wants to flash her pussy to people, let her know she is going to do it just in case she didn't realize it...

If her shirt is see through, let her know that it is see through in case she didn't know...

I can't even express why the comments about this just don't make sense to me. Possibly I'm just insufficiently possessive.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

:::OshnSoul:::

Everyone makes new choices everyday of who they are. it all depends on your feelings about it. If it's not that big of a deal, then it's not someone else changing you. No one can change you except for you. People makes requests and ask favors, we make the choice to make that change ourself or not.

Menoman

Wearing a bra or not wearing a bra couldnt be a choice that your feelings tell you is something that will change yourself.

It's like Ohhh, which Tshirt will I wear today fa la la

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raeanna74

Did you simply tell her not to go without a bra or did you ASK her if she realized how much exposure she was getting without a bra? Personally - Hubby will often start out things with a question - Are you going to wear that out? "Yes" Did you know that it was too short/shear/low etc.?

A question works much better than just TELLING.

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My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Cynthetiq

as I said to a previous g/f of mine... "Do you want to date me or my clothes? If you want to date the clothes I'll drop them off on your doorstep anytime..."

i think that there are bigger things to worry about than that...

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kutulu

People don't like to hear it. but one of the best ways to avoid becoming a victim is to not put yourself in the position where people are victimized. This includes dressing like a skank

brianna

no, it doesn't. rape does not occur because a woman is dressed in a revealing manner. virtually all criminal psychologists agree that rape is about power not sexual desire. sure, a rapist might think "look how slutty she's dressed, what a skank, she deserves to be raped for teasing me!" but he might also think of a woman in a business suit, "look at that bitch, she thinks she's so much better than men, she deserves to be put in her place!" or of a woman in coveralls or other traditionally male attire, "look at that dyke, she probably thinks she's too good for men, well i'll show her!" The mind of a would be rapist does not operate logically and needs no excuse to perpetrate a crime.

it is not the obligation of any woman to attempt to read the mind of a rapist and to suggestion or even imply that how someone dresses makes them any less of a victim is small minded and sexist.

Mehoni

Maybe we should all wear burqas. That would solve the problem with rape, wouldn't it? :P

On the bra-issue, ask your SO why she doens't want to wear it. If she feels it's not comfy then who are you to force her to wear it?

I rarely wear a bra. It feels constricting and it's not comfy at all

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There seem to be countless rituals and cultural beliefs designed to alleviate their fear of a simple biological truth - all organisms eventually perish.

Xell101

The way I operate, if my girlfriend chooses to dress like a skanky, attention craving, intellectually vacant, superficial ninny, who likes to allow her clothing to show to the world just how aesthetically pleasing her physical form is (not making reference to anyone mentioned thus far), then so be it. I'll replace the longer more explanatory version of the standard I hold those whom I interact with to with the summary version, that they have suffecient strength of will to simply be themselves, and that who they are is agreeable and desirable to interact with, looks usually have nothing to do with it.

Or large, light blue rain ponchos.

kutulu

It depends on what type of rape you're talking about. If you're talking about the type of rape where someone grabs a random woman that he hasn't even met and voilently rapes her while she's kicking and screaming, then yes the clothes she was wearing doesn't make a difference.

However, when considering "date rape" (which is probably MUCH more common) the situation is totally different. In this situation the rapist finds someone who he thinks will sleep with him. When she refuses, he takes her anyways. In this situation he has to find that person, convince her to go somewhere with him and then take advantage of her.

Is the rapist going to think he's more likely to score with the girl wearing next to nothing or the person who is more standoff-ish? Based on that, who would he go talk to?

Did the girl ask to be raped? No. Did she put herself in the position where it could happen? Yes.

I never said it makes the victim any less of a victim. You're putting words in my mouth there. Try this analogy:

A person is hanging out in front of a crack house flashing $100 bills. A crackhead sees the opportunity to get some easy money and kills/beats the person up to take his money. The guy is definitely a victim but he also put himself in the position to get mugged. He could have prevented it by not flashing his money around in front of the crackhouse.

A LOT of rapes could be totally prevented if people didn't go home with other people they can't fully trust. A bad choice will put you in the position to get victimized. If you don't want to get victimized, don't make the bad choice.

Menoman

Could not have said it better.

I just realized, that from another perspective, speaking this opinion might make someone think that your trying to put blame on the victim. Which is incorrect. The blame is/will always be the rapist.

Although its like a smoker, nobody knows when, how, why cancer get people. But if you smoke your taking the chance. Nobody knows when, how, why, a mentally ill (I say that b/c a mentally fit person would see problems with rape as do all of us) chooses victims. But if you are making yourself visably appealing in an outward sexual manner, your taking the chance.

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gondath

Believe it or not, people do judge you based on how you dress. It's a fact of life. The perception of your SO will reflect on you, which sometimes the reason for why their partners get mad.

On a side note, committing a crime does not make you mentally ill. If it did, nearly every person alive could be considered insane.

Menoman

Well if I had said commiting a crime makes you mentally ill then I guess you'd have a valid complaint. As it is.. I said a rapist is mentally ill.

I stand behind it because its just as bad as murder, only your making someone live for the rest of their lives with that hanging over their head.

To be a rapist or a murderer, there must be some sort of mental flaw that would allow themselves to do something like that.

How it could be done by someone sane boggles my mind.

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brianna

insisting that a rapist is motivated by a woman's appearance is a common misconception that assumes that rape is a sexual act. Virtually all researchers agree that rape (yes, even date rape, which is the most common) is very rarely about sex it most often motivated by anger and/or a desire to have power over a woman. the following websites have a good section on the myth's of rape including information on motivations for rape.

http://www.rapecrisisonline.com/articles.htm http://www.gynpages.com/choices/7.html

Claiming that a woman could avoid being raped if she would dress more conservatively does place some of the blame for the crime on her as it suggests that there was something that she could have done to stop the rape. since there is a wide variation in what people think constitutes inappropriate dress it would be next to impossible for a woman to make an informed decision about her clothing in an effort to avoid rape. what you find revealing and sexy the next man (or rapist) may find overly conservative.

Please do not insist yet again that rape is motivated by appearance unless you have some reference to back this up. unless you are a rapist yourself I find it very unlikely that you can predict what motivates one, especially when all of the studies I could find reported no connection between dress and victim (in fact most rapists cannot remember what their victims were wearing).

when you correlate dress with violent crime you trivialize sexual assault and further the virgin whore myth. it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to embrace her sexuality and in a society that idolizes naked female flesh one would think that people would be a bit more wary of hypocritically stating that such women who dress to fit this ideal are doing so at the risk of being sexually assaulted.

kutulu

Fine forget about the clothing issue, I see you will never ever try to see any point we've made. You still have to admit that many people who get raped put themselves in that position.

Look at the Kobe Bryant trial. I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent but if she really was raped, the whole thing could have been avoided if she hadn't gone into his room where nobody could help her. Responsible people don't put themselves in that situation.

raeanna74

Nope. A Sheriff once told me something about - of the people who have a social psychosis, about a third remain annonymous, a third end up as criminals, and the last third end up going into law enforcement.

You might have some short circuits in your brain but how you deal with it can make a world of a difference.

With regard to dress having an effect on rape. It shouldn't. I personally will avoid some kinds of clothing in certain situations. There are things a woman can do to help protect herself and how she dresses is one of the least of these I think. I do believe that a self defense class for every woman should be offered in public schools even. It's nearly essential in this day and age to be able to protect yourself and the ones you love. It's also needed to be taught how to use those skills responsibly.

Back to the original subject. If you don't like how she dresses on a consistant basis and you can't work it out find someone new. Before that talk to her. ASK questions. I've said it before - Asking questions instead of just telling someone what you think they should do is the best way to get them to open up and listen to you. ASK, ASK, ASK. Ask her why she doesn't wear bras, if she knows she's exposing herself so much, and why she's doing it. Maybe she just hates the bras she's got. Take her to VS, buy her some pretty comfy bras then and see if she'll be more willing to compromise with you. TALK - ASK

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kutulu

Just be prepared to spend $40/bra...

analog

Actually, no, we don't. There are years and years of study and overwhelmingly repetitive professional opinion to back it up. People put themselves in everyday situations expecting to NOT be raped, NOT be beaten, and NOT be killed. When this crime happens, it is purely out of a feeling of power, not what the girl is wearing.

First of all, why the hell would you tell your girl to put a bra on? It's her clothes, man. If you don't enjoy the presence of a woman who chooses the way she looks, and sometimes that means free-range boobage for you- than perhaps this is the wrong girl, and you need something more along the lines of a Stepford wife (reference to wives brainwashed into being perfectly subservient).

For the shirt/dress, I have a friend who has one of those. She thinks it's cute, she thinks it's sexy, and the price she pays for wearing it is showing off some ass if she bends over, and some crotch if she doesnt' perfectly cross her legs. It's still her option.

I know 8 million guys who cry foul when their girlfriend says, "you're gonna wear THAT?" or "can't you dress more nicely for me?" or some other variation, because they don't like being controlled.

I'm curious- are these sentiments coming from an older generation that is either 1.) becoming more conservative in their years (read: prudes) or 2.) of a mindset that their women are their property and can be told what to do for every facet of their life, down to if they wear a bra or a certain kind of dress?

If it were really an issue, you should have resolved it already. Share a dialogue, don't deliver a sermon. You know you get preachy, just accept it and move on towards a discussion. It's the "getting defensive about preaching" portion that really pisses them off, more often than not.

amonkie

That's why you go now during their Semi Annual Sale!

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primal

I think that the most valid point here is that the appearance of your SO reflects on you. If someone you do business with sees your wifes pussy at a club, it's a possibility that you may lose their business. That's just an example, but people treat you/think of you differently based on their perception of you and of your significant other. I'm sure that many elections have been lost just because of the image of the persons SO.

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kutulu

Nowdays "experts" are saying that people can't give consent when they are drunk. How many people get drunk and then get laid? A lot of rapes happen when two drunk people hook up. One decides that they don't want to go further, the other disagrees. I'm not blamining a victim but the victim could have avoided all of that by not putting themself in that situation where such an event could occur. There are certain situations that are more risky than other situations. Those situations should be avoided.

Very well said. There is a proper venue for any type of clothing an there is nothing wrong with someone asking their SO to change their clothes. It doesn't mean they have to, but if a relationship is going to work it shouldn't be a big deal unless it's something that happens all the time.

I'd look like shit most of the time if my wife didn't get me to dress up when we go to some places. I don't care about that sort of thing but I am capable of understanding that SHE does. Changing your clothes to make your SO is NOT a big deal.

How many relationships fail because one of the people has such a fragile sense of independence that every freaking request has to be a struggle of "you can't tell me what to do, I'm my own person!"

brianna

you are blaming the victim. and while i agree that getting drunk and going home with a man you do not know is not particularly smart behavior it's equally stupid for a man to do the same. if you cannot control yourself enough to hear the word "no" when you are drunk then you should know better then to take the first drink and should probably seek counseling for your anger and alcohol management problems. the rapist is always the person with the problem, not the victim.