StormBerlin

HAHAHA I dunno about that.

__________________
"if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane

sixate

What you don't seem to understand is that this kid will never turn into a Columbine freak. Those Columbine freaks were fucked with, and they just took it. They never stood up for themselves. This kid did stand up, so it's obvious he won't turn into a mental killer like those assholes because he obviously feels as though he's not worthless, unlike those Columbine losers. There's a difference between a 12 year old sticking up for himself, and a couple of 17 year olds who are fucking freaks.

Maybe you want school to raise your kids for you because you don't/wouldn't spend enough time with them yourself. I'll make sure I raise my kids when I have them. The school they go to won't.

MSD

The issue is that schools have no desire to help anyone. My group of friends in high school was constantly attacked, both verbally and physically, and with no provocation. Every time, as we just stood there dodging the half-full bottles of Gatorade that rained down on us in the cafeteria courtyard, the school security people blamed us and tried to accuse us of violence.

The school should take reports of bullying seriously before kids need to resort to violence.

BoCo

Just the way it should be! A lot of the problems with society nowadays is the fact that mommy and daddy care more about SUVs and widescreen TVs than they do their own kids. Both of them work 40 hours or more a week and expect the corrupt school system and even more corrupt Hollywood crowd to raise their children for them.
When I was growing up, I was always the smallest kid in my class. I got fucked with more than just about anyone I know, and it wasn't until I started fighting back in the 3rd grade that I was finally left alone. I had a leftist mother who always told me to run away and never fight back and I was young enough that I didn't know how bad her advice was. I finally got sick of the bullying one day after school and beat the crap out of 3 guys who bothered me everyday. After that day, those guys never bothered me ever again and neither did anyone else. By the 4th grade I was already good buddies with those 3 tormentors, and that never would have happened had I not kicked their asses and earned their respect.

Chances are no one will mess with the kid in this story ever again, and he'll probably end up having a lot more respect from his peers, and a lot more friends as well, because of what he did.

You don't fight fire with love or fear, you fight it with fire. If someone hits you, hit them back so hard they'll never dream of hitting you ever again.

__________________
Activism is a way for useless people to feel important.

Charlatan

It is exactly this sort of thinking that creates violence in the first place... I have absolutely no respect for someone who must resort to violence.

Violence is the domain of cowards and simpletons who are unwilling or unable to think of alternatives.

Cynthetiq

completely agree with you. the fighting back isn't something that I want to do, but I have to do. My best friend in gradeschool was the same way... a fight brought us to be the best of friends.

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fypon

I think your experience may be more of an exception than the norm. Your experiences have had bad results. Everyone I know of that ever had problems in school or otherwise resolved their problems when they made a stand and stood up for themselves. I am not advocating violence. There are some instances where you are left with no other choice. There was definitely an alternative solution to this kids problem other than stabbing him with a pencil. There are however some people out there that can not be dealt with in any other fashion. They don’t get the message any other way, they cant be reasoned with. You will never convince me otherwise. My experiences have shown me that. I have had a couple of incidents that ended in violence. I am neither proud nor ashamed of what I did. I did what I had to do at that given time. Looking back at those situations I have no regrets.

Let me ask you this. Do you respect a woman that resorts to beating the hell out of an attacker by any means necessary to avoid being victimized? Because after all that is resorting to violence.

Polyphobic

I think there is a difference between self defense (or sticking up for your self) and resorting to violence. In my mind the difference is in the intent. Resorting to violence is more like what the bully does.
I was always taught to avoid the fight and to not hit first unless I had no other choice. That being said, there are times when fighting back is a necessity. Especially when it will cause you less harm in the long run. Ex: sticking up for yourself in school. You don't fight back in public schools and then the other kids will pick on you more.
Then there comes the gray line between self defense and assault. IMO stabbing someone with a pencil is overkill. Weapons should never be involved.

__________________
<--The great infidel-->

Charlatan

Polyphobic has it right... there is a BIG difference between resorting to violence and self-defence. If someone jumps me and starts pounding on my head, there is no reason to lie there and take it...

However, taking the fight to someone that has angered you is resorting to violence.

There are more ways than resorting to violence to "stand up for yourself".

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

fypon

I agree. I just wanted to see if you considered any type of violence, self-defense or not bad.

raeanna74

I was reading back through this thread once again. You've hit it right on the head here.

When I was teaching school I can recall one particularly problematic bully. We tried our utmost to monitor him constantly. Still he would try stuff. At least we were able to catch it and no one was seriously hurt - just slightly intimidated.

I called the parents on more than one occaision and the Dad only made excuses for the boy. I saw the family in church as well (parochial, church affiliated school) and was able to observe interactions. Dad pretty much didn't care one wit for the kids. He had 4 of them too. His eldest was the bully and was so very far behind in his education. They had put him in our school because he couldnt' make it in public school. The boy was 13 and had the reading level of a 3rd grader.

The atmostphere at home sets everything up for how the kids handle stress and bullying at school.

One comment this woman had made - the government requires he go to this school - there is such a thing as parochial schools or homeschool. It all depends on your level of motivation to do what needs to be done.

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My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

fypon

Wrong thread.... grrrrr...

pocon1

^^^THREADJACK, back on Track^^^

I will teach my children (when I have them) to stand up for themselves. I will not teach them to bully. I remember my family being active in Karate when I was 7 or 8 years old. The whole family. My mom was an elementary school teacher for 25 years, and she felt it was important to know how to defend myself. My dad was a special ed teacher, as well. he told the story of one time when an 8th grader was constantly picking on a 7th grader, who was much smaller. One day when my dad was on playground duty, the 8th grader was chasing around the 7th grader. They ran by a trashcan tht happened to have a stick in it. The 7th grader picked up the stick, and started beating on the other kid with it. One of the teachers asked my dad if he was goint to stop it. He said, "wait, just wait." After a little while, he stopped the beating, but the older kid never picked on the younger one after that.

Lasereth

Violence may be bad, but this isn't a matter of violence being good or bad. Everyone is acting like "stepping away from the situation" or "ignoring the bully" simply solves everything. I don't know what bullies are outside of North Carolina, but the ones where I grew up will NOT stop bullying until they're sent away. When they get back, they keep doing it. Not doing anything about it does NOT work. Resorting to "peace" and not the evil violence does not work everytime.

A friend of mine got made fun of every damned day in one of my classes in high school. 5 or 6 bullies picked on him, even smacked him around sometimes. The teacher just told them to stop. They didn't. The bullies were sent to the office a few times, but they still continued it. One day, the kid that got picked on went apeshit and punched two of them in the face and kicked another one in the nuts. None of them picked on him again.

Sitting there and taking it peacefully is bullshit. If someone is picking on me, they're gonna get a warning, and if they don't stop, an asskicking will commence. Peace this, peace that: I WILL stand up for myself. Running away works 10% of the time, and resorting to telling the teachers just makes it worse.

It's not right to say that a kid punching someone back that is hurting him is wrong. Violence may be negative to our society, but so is sitting there and taking it "peacefully."

-Lasereth

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

irseg

Hmm.. So let's say you walk into your house and find someone in the process of raping your mother. Are you gonna call 911 and wait around 10 minutes for him to finish up and run off before the cops show up?

If someone is beating up your best friend, would you just stand around and let him get hurt rather than helping him fight off the attacker?

If so, YOU are the coward and don't even try to think otherwise.

Charlatan

Did you even read my post above?

...this would naturally extend to my family as well. Don't be stupid. I would takes steps to ensure the invader stops. I certainly wouldn't be happy about it though. The whole situation would suck.

That said, we are talking about children here...

The point I am trying to make is that there are better ways for a child to stand up to bullies than resorting to violence. In my experience, fighting back against a bully means that he comes with a friend next time. So what should happen? Well, I'll go out and get two friends and so on and so on... Escalation of violence solves nothing.

Because I don't think violence ever solve anything does not mean that I don't think violence can sometimes be necessary. If I call on the police for assistance is that not just out sourcing a violent response?




To add to who's responsibilty it is to raise a child... Yes, it is the parent's job. No question. However, a school must also take some responsibility. You child spends more time at school than they do with you, their parents.

There is a shared responsibility here. I do not know what my child is up to when at school and I rely on the teacher and principal of the school to inform me if there is a problem. Together we would try and correct the problem.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Lasereth

Resorting to a teacher or principal is a long-term solution. We're talking about short-term. If you think the kid shouldn't have fought back, what do you suggest that he should have did? In other cases (my school), the teachers won't do shit about "petty" bullying cases. Sending the bullies to the office just makes things worse. In the short-term, if the kid was being bullied and the teachers won't do anything, would you rather him defend himself, or sit there and take it?

-Lasereth

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

sixate

When someone is trying to kick your ass for no reason let me know how talking to them works. Or let me know of the other alternatives to stop from getting your ass kicked work. Since I'm just a big dummy I'd love to know how to stop someone from beating my ass without having to resort to violence.

I have no respect for people who don't have the balls to stand up for themselves.

ARTelevision

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

George Orwell
...

We are free because our freedom has been won by the blood of warriors.

Violence is how we have survived and how we will continue to survive. Don't knock it.

__________________
create evolution

sixate

Yeah!!

Charlatan

Learn to read earlier posts... (sheesh)

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Charlatan

As for the need for violence... yes, there have been times in history where violence is "necessary" but didn't really solve the larger problem.

Sure Hitler (Saddam, Pol Pot , insert any so-called evil dictator's name here) was stopped. But did we stop racism, genocide and the like? No. We still have all of those things.

Perhaps violence is a part of what it means to be human. I'm not convinced. I think we should strive to solve our differences in non-violent ways. Only through striving to overcome violence will be be rid of it...

The problem is that as long as there are barbarians who believe that an eye for an eye is the *only* way to solve differences there will always be violence. The problem for most people who jump to violence is that it is usually a faster "solution" than other methods. People love instant gratification. Real solutions take longer.


You kick my ass, I kick yours... someone sees that we no longer fight and now believes that that violent act is the way to solve the problem. But in truth we no long fight not becasue you have respect for me. You don't respect me for kicking your ass right back... you *fear* that I will do it again. That is not respect for me it is a respect of fear.

Do I resort to violence? Damn straight. I have a very nasty temper. People have pissed me off enough that I'd love to smash their arrogant, pissant face in... I know, however, that there is nothing to gain from smashing their face except bruised and bloody knuckles. So instead I type this knowing that in truth I am bashing my head against the wall...

Were Sixate to break into my house, yes I would take steps to stop him... again, I wouldn't be happy about it but I would take the necessary steps to defend my family and myself and I would enjoy seeing him go to jail for home invasion and assault.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

sixate

I read them all, but what makes no sense is it's OK for you to fight back when attacked, but not this boy. You make zero sense! There is no difference.

filtherton

What you don't understand is that in some small way, this kid already has more in common with those columbine freaks than you or i. Maybe he will turn into a freak because people are labeling him a hero for stabbing someone with a pencil.

I'm all for standing up for one's self. What i'm not for is kids stabbing eachother with pencils because they feel they have no alternative. There are no heroes in this situation.

You miss my point if you think i don't want to spend time with my thoeretical children. Surely it is not too difficult for you to understand that it is impossible for parents to control the behavior of their children when they aren't actually in the child's physical presence. Does that make sense? Part of any elementary school's role is childcare and part of childcare is making sure that children behave themselves.

In fact, you aren't really in any position to comment about what the parents may or may not be doing, and with all due respect, i find the idea of sixate as family psychologist somewhat lacking in credibility.

Or, chances are, he gets his ass kicked consistently for weeks by the friends of the guy he stabbed. It could probably go either way.

I'll use that the next time i feel like robbing a bank. I'll just tell the cops that violence is all part of the natural order of things. They'll no doubt give me a thumbs up and send me on my way.

A child with a pencil stabbing another child is not a matter of survival, nor is it the work of warriors, to label it as such is a stretch. In any case, no one here seems to be claiming to be a pacifist.

Lasereth

No one that's against the stabbing of the pencil has given any alternative. If you think the boy shouldn't have defended himself, what do you think he should have done? Don't say "change the adminstration" or "talk to the parents" blah blah. Short-term is what matters here. He was getting picked on physically, he defended himself. What should he have done instead of retaliating?

-Lasereth

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

filtherton

I don't know what he should've done. Like everybody else here, i don't really know all of the details. What i do know, is that stabbing people in the face with pencils is not the kind of behavior that should be encouraged in children, bully or not. Do you think that children should be encouraged to stab eachother in the faces with pencils? If your child ever falls victim to a bully are you going to hand him/her a pencil and tell them to "make you proud"? Do you trust children to know when a pencil shiv in the face is the right course of action? How is a child to know whether to stab in the face or the throat? What if he had stabbed this other kid in the throat, hit the jugular, and killed him? Would he still be your hero? Would the bully still deserve it and if so, could you tell the dead bully's parents that their child deserved to die?

iamnormal

Why is the bully a bully?

Lasereth

I wouldn't tell him to stab someone, but I would definitely tell him to kick some ass. Sitting there and taking it is senseless.

Alright, so ya don't know what he should have done. Then why is this a debate? If ya think he shouldn't have stabbed the other kid, then what should he have done? Self defense is the answer. I don't see how anyone could be against self defense in a case like this.

-Lasereth

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

filtherton

I'm not debating the value of self defense, i'm debating the labelling of a child a hero for stabbing another child with a pencil. You yourself admit that you wouldn't tell him to stab someone. Why not? It's self defense, right?

I missed the part of the article where the kid was being threatened with puncture wounds. Self defense is justifed it it is 1. The only viable response to an immediate threat and 2. If it matches the severity of the threat you are currently under. If someone is pushing me, i can't shoot them in self defense, i can't hit them with a baseball bat, and i most certainly can't stab them and claim that it was all in self defense.

The reason i can't tell you what he should have done is that i don't have enough information to decide. And neither do you. You can pretend that it is a cut and dry case of "stab the bully", but you really don't know all of the details. Furthermore, even if i did know all of the details down to the location of every last fucking atom, who am i to pretend to know what this child is capable of, or whether he had truly exhausted every last option in terms of dealing with said bully. I know that people who bully generally lack self esteem, and will generally not bully people who don't provide them net gain in overall sense of self worth. That is to say: If you can make a bully lose more self respect by trying to fuck with you than he could hope to gain by fucking with you that he'll leave you alone. How you accomplish that is up to you, but violence is a crude, unpredictable tool. Anyways, knowing this, my advice as to what the child should do would be woefully unhelpful to the child if the child didn't understand that by having a smart mouth/making himself a sympathetic figure to his peers and the capacity to make nice-nice with a bigger kid he could avoid much ridicule.

Lasereth

I said earlier that I'm not saying he's a hero because he stabbed the bully. I said he was a hero because he stood up for himself. I personally would have pushed the bully back or hit him (if that's what he was doing to the kid).

Having a smart mouth and making himself sympathetic would make things worse. Kids that get picked on are usually sympathetic already. That's half the reason that the bullies choose that kid. I don't see how making nice-nice with a bully can solve anything either. The bully doesn't deserve a friendship after what he did. No one wants to be friends with a jackass!

It's evident that people simply have differing views on violence. I think violence is fine in self defense. He probably shouldn't have stabbed with a pencil, but I think other means of self defense are in order.

-Lasereth

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

DelayedReaction

Stopping Hitler may not have stopped all Genocide, but it certainly ended the Holocaust. Diplomacy will not work when your opponent refuses to cooperate; your "barbarians" will simply laugh and continue on.

I disagree with your idea that people instinctively jump to violence first. Violence is typically a last resort, and often an act of desperation. In the case of this child (who I do believe is a hero for defending himself), he saw no alternatives. Earlier pleas for assistance had failed, and the child decided to defend himself with what he had. I would do the same, and I expect my children to do the same as well. Then again, I also would not have kept my child in such a blatantly harmful environment.

My problem with the path of nonviolence is the constraint it places on ones actions. Violence should always be a last resort, but to call people who execute it in those situations "cowards" and "simpletons" is foolish. As much as I would like to live in a world where all problems can be solved democratically, in reality I feel such a simplistic view is harmful.

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If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

Charlatan

Fighting back in the last resort is, while regrettable, sometimes neccessary. It doesn't make it a heroic action which was my point all along.

Resorting to violence is never a good thing and ultimately solves nothing. Short term solution.

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

lurkette

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

There's no doubt that this kid was pushed to the edge and snapped, but letting him off scot free for what does amount to assault only teaches him that violence is an appropriate solution. It might be an effective solution sometimes, if the other side backs down first or if you manage to keep hurting them more than they hurt you (Israel/Palestine, anyone?) but what kind of world do you want to live in? The kind of world where might makes right or the kind of world where laws and social contracts make life bearable? When the system breaks down, it's time to make an effort to change the system, not run around it stabbing people with pencils.

Take them to their logical conclusions and take a look at which system works best: Ghandi's passive resistance getting Britain out of India, or the Palestinians suicide bombing Israelis?

And before you play the "you don't know what it's like" card, my whole family was subject to bullying in a small town where we were outsiders, and I'm proud of how we dealt with it: by rising above it.

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Hampshire

i agree this judge did a good job to handling the case, i also agree that this boy is a hero and everyone should stand up to these idiots. Actually, they should just be kicked out after the 2 offence. No tollerance

martinguerre

*ding!

It isn't going to be pencils in a few years. And none of y'all will be clapping then.

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-John 3:16

Kalnaur

While it is regretable that the bully was hurt, so was his decision to physically injure someone.

And from your experiences I would understand, Charlatan, if you were shy of violence. But more often then not, a little forceful persuasion has helped me more than words. Brutes do not understand words.

This child was most probably lashing out at the bully, without thinking, and forgot of the pencil in his hand. An imediate response though is a far cry from what the Columbine duo were responsible for. I aplaud this child for his forthright handle on defending himself, and i plan to educate my children in understanding that taking physical action, while the last solution, is still a solution. As they say, if all else fails . . . .

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PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

0energy0

that boy is my hero...well he shouldn't have stabbed him. he should have clunked the bully in the head or threated him. i would beat that boy up if i meet him.

Poloboy

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding Charlatan and Filtherton. They aren't denying the necessity of the use of violence in some extreme situations of self-defense. The issue is with the labelling of the child as a hero. Calling someone a hero affords them the distinction of courage, nobility, strength, and worthiness of being admired.

In my opinion, nothing about this child's actions are admirable or courageous. I see the progression from passiveness to violence as a breakdown in self-control, rather than a mustering of courage or willpower. When I read this story, I don't see David standing up to the big bad Goliath monster and saving all the bullied children by being the one who stands up for himself. I see an abused, emotionally shattered kid pushed so close to the edge he took the closest weapon at hand and went for the face. He raged and lashed out. To me that is weakness, not strength.

Nevertheless, the issue is labelling the kid a hero. This implies his actions are commendable and should be applauded and taught to other children. Are these the values we want youth learning? When somebody bigger than you bullies you, grab a weapon and go for the kill shot?

I don't defend the bully, and I don't profess that I would have had any more self-control than the pencil-wielder in this situation. Who knows, I may have snapped one day just like he did. In retrospect after the incident, though, I think I would be pretty horrified at how close I had come to blinding or paralyzing someone, and if anybody called me a hero I'd try to drag them with me to the anger management class that was clearly necessary.

Lak

The way I see this going down is that the kid was probably being taunted during a class, and lashed out with pencil still in hand. It seems unlikely that it was premeditated, he simply neglected the fact that he was still holding the pencil and the unfortunate outcome ensued. Of course, none of us know this for sure, so whatever.

I find the columbine incident an extremely unfair comparison. What those two lads did was premeditated, and on top of that they retaliated against indivuduals who were entirely uninvolved, attacking students and teachers indiscriminately. That's hardly a retaliation, its just wanton violence born of bottled frustration.

Its amusing that "levels" of violence are sometimes called to judge these situations, and a pencil-stabbing is clearly "going too far". As I said before (but clearly cant prove) I think the fact that a sharp instrument was involved at all was just bad luck. If the kid has simply socked the bully in the nose, there would hardly have been such a fuss.

I (like most people who hang out on the internet) was in the 'bullied' crowd as well. I dont anger easily, but once I retaliated against a particular guy who was just generally beinga cunt. I didn't shoot him, stab him, or poison his tea - I gave him a stern look and bitchslapped him across the face. It worked brilliantly - no one really got hurt, and it solved the bullying problem on the spot. Of course this doesnt work in all cases, but I was able to use a low "level" of violence to get my point across.

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ignorance really is bliss.

Amnesia620

I was bullied in school. In the 5th and 6th grades, I was harrassed and bullied almost everyday on my way home...social outcast was my reputation...all because I wasn't wearing the newest style, make-up and had the latest hairstyle. I was shy, angry, desperate to have people like me. Due to being a complete outcast, as well as dealing with a few personal factors, my self-esteem and confidence was shot. I was held back in the 6th grade, partially because my grades reflected my feeling secure and safe. My dad put me into a martial arts class and things improved - my grades went from F's and D's to B's and C's my second year in the 6th grade.
In the 7th grade, I made a joke about a girl who basically had some issues and was a delinquent...she got wind of my joke and began to harrass me to the point where I wasn't sure how far she would go to hurt me and "make an example" of me. After being chased one day by her and 25 "friends" of hers, afterschool, in which my dad and I went to the cops and pressed charges, she became more livid. She told "stories" to everyone about my deceased mother and my "hippie" dad - I confronted her and was just about to swing when we were separated and she was publicly chastised and warned she would be sent away if she didn't watch herself.
The next morning, she spotted me and my dad as he was dropping me off at music class (held at the high school), to which my dad and I both flipped her the bird. As I walked to class, she raced across the football field to me, ready to kill, and I had had enough. In front of our classmates and several high school students, I tore her shirt, fattened her lip, ripped out her hair and pushed her into a wall, before we were pulled apart by a few members of the school's staff. I had red marks on my arm and face where she swung blindly or tightly gripped me, during the fight.
My principal was shocked to see me in his office, commended me for standing up for myself (he'd seen and heard about my rough adjustment since I had started at his school) and sent me to my teacher/class to wait for the rest of my class to join me after music/art period ended. She was sent home (no suspension - as that would have placed her back into the family welfare system, where she might have been placed in juvenile prison).
I was no longer teased, made fun of, harrassed, jumped or threatened by any of the students.
Some of us don't like conflict - but we all have a breaking point. We react on instinct - fear or aggression - when we've had enough. How much was he supposed to tolerate? How many times does he have to see teachers and other students witness his treatment - to which they obviously don't do anything about, on any level - before his actions are justified??
However, he is not a hero. He didn't prevent someone from harm - he caused harm. As his first offense, I believe the courts judgement against him is absolute bullshit. He should have been ordered to attend counseling sessions and/or self-improvement programs.

__________________
For example, I find that a lot of college girls are barbie doll carbon copies with few differences...Sadly, they're dumb, ditzy, immature, snotty, fake, or they are the gravitational center to orbiting drama. - Amnesia620