Iraqi Prisoner abuse - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

perripken · 05-03-2004, 05:24 PM

I can't believe what a setback these douchebags created for the United States! Whatever trust we were getting from some of the Iraqi's was just thrown out of the window. These idiots should be locked up for good! I don't care if they were serving our country! I also can't believe George W. hasn't held a press conference condemning what they did. He needs to save face for our country! Don't get me wrong, I totally support our troops, but this handful of idiots just made a total mockery of everything we stand for.
Sorry.... had to rant!

Otaku · 05-03-2004, 05:36 PM

i heard reports that the pics werent real (or was it the brit's pics?)

Something about the wrong rifles and uniforms?

Or is that just more spin?

Mojo_PeiPei · 05-03-2004, 05:51 PM

It was the Brit pics I believe that they are coming out and claiming as fake.

perripken · 05-03-2004, 05:55 PM

I hope they're fakes, and if they are, I apologize to the soldiers I called douchebags. I have the upmost respect for our armed forces.

Mojo_PeiPei · 05-03-2004, 06:00 PM

No reason to apologize, doesn't excuse the actions of the Americans. Just mostly goes to show how badly some people want this war to fail, they will fabricate false information that will incite more violence and hatred.

The.Lunatic · 05-03-2004, 07:01 PM

Hmm, i put my trust in the american forces to do the right thing, but i won't stand for people badmouthing everyone for the actions of a few. I mean there are pussies in france, but does that make the whole country a bunch of pussy fairyies...

Oh wait yes it does huh, oh well too bad for the iraqi's i guess.

slimcr · 05-04-2004, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The.Lunatic

Oh wait yes it does huh, oh well too bad for the iraqi's i guess.

No...it doesnt just work like that.....most of the terrorists out there are fueled by a sentiment of hatred towards everything "American"......

Those pictures did nothing but fuel that hatred, the same hatred that carried out the 911 attacks....

Mephisto2 · 05-04-2004, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
No reason to apologize, doesn't excuse the actions of the Americans. Just mostly goes to show how badly some people want this war to fail, they will fabricate false information that will incite more violence and hatred.

I think it's quite safe to say that the pictures of the AMERICAN soldiers abusing the prisoners were not faked.

There are some concerns about "inanomolies" with the British pictures, but I think the truth will come out there soon.

Mr Mephisto

BDozer · 05-04-2004, 02:27 PM

Former prisoners and a Reserve army Sgt. are both confirmation that those pictures (the American ones) are real.

Astrocloud · 05-04-2004, 02:31 PM

Here are some of the photos

(Someone please tell me what this says... I can't make it out)

She seems obsessed with male genitals which is normally a good thing...

Astrocloud · 05-04-2004, 03:08 PM

Stanford Prison Experiment

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Stanford Prison Experiment was a landmark psychological study of the human response to captivity, in particular, to the real world circumstances of prison life. It was conducted in 1971 by Philip Zimbardo of Stanford University.

Subjects were randomly assigned to play the role of "prisoner" or "guard". Those assigned to play the role of guard were given sticks and sunglasses; those assigned to play the prisoner role were arrested by the Palo Alto police department, deloused, forced to wear chains and prison garments, and transported to the basement of the Stanford psychology department, which had been converted into a makeshift jail.

Several of the guards became progressively more sadistic - particularly at night when they thought the cameras were off, despite being picked by chance out of the same pool as the prisoners.

The experiment very quickly got out of hand. A riot broke out on day two. One prisoner developed a psychosomatic rash all over his body upon finding out that his "parole" had been turned down. After only 6 days (of a planned two weeks), the experiment was shut down, for fear that one of the prisoners would be seriously hurt.

Although the intent of the experiment was to examine captivity, its result has been used to demonstrate the impressionability and obedience of people when provided with a legitimizing ideology and social and institutional support. It also used to illustrate cognitive dissonance theory and the power of seniority/authority.

TM875 · 05-04-2004, 03:49 PM

May I just comment on the dissenting side...

These Iraquis are our PRISONERS. That means that they have done something wrong that has forced us to incarcerate them. As long as we are not killing them or permantly injuring them, they are still ours.

Astrocloud made a very good point with the Stanford prison experiment. Anyone in power will excercise that power to the utmost extent, even if this means "abuse". Nonetheless, the term "abuse" should be used sparingly in the regards to criminals.

Lets face it, if they weren't fighting against us right now, they wouldn't have been in prison, now would they? And, on the other view of the subject, if we had just blown that little sand pit out of the ocean a year ago (like we rightly should have done), they certainly wouldn't have been in prison and wouldn't have been "abused".

Mephisto2 · 05-04-2004, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TM875
May I just comment on the dissenting side...

These Iraquis are our PRISONERS. That means that they have done something wrong that has forced us to incarcerate them.

With all due respect, what on EARTH are you talking about?

Did something wrong?

Yeah, they fought to defend their country, as ordered by their commanders, when the US Coalition invaded.

Sheesh... They are Prisoners of WAR, not criminals in the "felony" sense.

Quote:

As long as we are not killing them or permantly injuring them, they are still ours.

They are not "yours" at all.

Also, see the post below on over 25 deaths, including MURDER, of detainees in American custody.

Quote:

Nonetheless, the term "abuse" should be used sparingly in the regards to criminals.

I don't really know what to say to this. Have you ever heard of the LAW? The GENEVA CONVENTION?

I think you need to better understand the issues before making such silly sweeping statements.

Quote:

Lets face it, if they weren't fighting against us right now, they wouldn't have been in prison, now would they? And, on the other view of the subject, if we had just blown that little sand pit out of the ocean a year ago (like we rightly should have done), they certainly wouldn't have been in prison and wouldn't have been "abused".

Yeah, right. It's their fault for being born...

Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2 · 05-04-2004, 04:05 PM

Quote:

US army probes deaths in custody
A soldier says he was ordered to photograph Iraqi detainees (AP/Courtesy The New Yorker)
US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has promised that any Americans abusing Iraqi prisoners will be punished.

The US military says there have been investigations into 25 deaths in US custody in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In two cases the dead men were found to have been murdered by Americans, according to a US army official.

Senior US politicians have called for public hearings on mistreatment of prisoners, and have demanded the right to question Mr Rumsfeld.

Angry senators said they had been kept in the dark by the defence department until photographs of apparent abuse emerged in the media.

'Un-American'

But Mr Rumsfeld said armed forces chiefs acted swiftly and properly as soon as the claims came to light in January.

Mr Rumsfeld said those responsible for the "unacceptable and un-American" conduct would be brought to justice.

The Pentagon has confirmed that criminal charges have been filed against six US soldiers in relation to the photos, while six senior officers have been reprimanded.

But there have been concerns that the mistreatment is more widespread.

A senior army official said there had been investigations into 25 cases of death and 10 of abuse in US custody in Iraq or Afghanistan since December 2002.

The BBC's Pentagon correspondent Nick Childs says of the 25 deaths, 12 were found to be either of natural or "undetermined" causes, one was a "justifiable homicide", and two were murders. Ten inquiries are ongoing, he says.

Not jailed

An Army official, speaking to Reuters on condition of anonymity, said a soldier had been convicted of killing one of the prisoners by hitting him with a rock.

He was thrown out of the army but did not go to jail.

The other murder was committed by a private contractor who worked for the CIA, the official said.

Following the emergence of the photos, taken at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad, army chiefs were called before an emergency hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

It is a pattern on the part of the defence department of not keeping the Congress informed
Senator John McCain
Afterwards senators said they were angry that details of what the army knew - particularly the contents of an internal Pentagon report - had been given to the media before Congress.

"The ramifications are so serious and so severe, and the implications are so grave, that that report should have been forthcoming here immediately," said the committee's top Democrat, Senator Carl Levin.

Senator John McCain, a former prisoner-of-war in Vietnam, went further, saying: "It is a severe problem. But it is a pattern on the part of the defence department of not keeping the Congress informed."

'Sadistic abuses'

The internal report by Maj Gen Antonio Taguba was commissioned in January following persistent allegations of abuse at Abu Ghraib and its findings are believed to have been made available early last month.

US media which have seen the report say Gen Taguba found evidence of "sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses of Iraqi prisoners". His findings said:

* Detainees were threatened with a loaded pistol
* Cold water was poured on naked prisoners
* Inmates were beaten with a broom handle and chair
* Male detainees were threatened with rape
* A prisoner was sodomised with a chemical light
* Detainees were forced into various sexual positions to be photographed
* Naked inmates were arranged in a pile and then jumped on

The abuse of Iraqi detainees has been condemned across the US political spectrum including by President George W Bush.

But Mr Rumsfeld also defended the actions of the armed forces, saying they had acted promptly and properly, launching an investigation in January the day after abuse allegations were first made - and issuing a press release two days after that.

Gen Peter Pace, Vice-Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, said "everyone" had been told about the allegations and the findings of the Taguba report but that it was normal that top officials such as himself and Mr Rumsfeld had not yet read it, as the report had to make its way slowly up the chain of command.

Damage control

As the US tried to contain the damage caused as the pictures of abuse were shown in the press in the Arab world, US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice appeared on the Al-Jazeera channel to appeal for trust.

"The president guarantees that those who did that be held accountable... and people will see that we are determined to get to the truth," she said.

But in Iraq, the US-appointed human rights minister, Abdul-Basat al-Turki, resigned on Tuesday in protest at the abuses.

Meanwhile a lawyer for one of the soldiers allegedly involved in the abuse cases at Abu Ghraib said they were simply "following orders".

Guy Womack, attorney for Charles Graner Jr, said the campaign was coordinated by governmental agencies, including the CIA.

The former head of the prison, Brig Gen Janis Karpinski, said she believed military commanders were trying to shift the blame onto her and other reservists and away from the intelligence officers still at work in the prison.

REF: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3684381.stm

Mr Mephisto

TM875 · 05-04-2004, 04:31 PM

Perhaps I haven't stated it here enough, but I have always been a big opponent of the Geneva Convention, and even the 8th amendment (cruel and unusual punishment) for that matter.

These are prisoners. They have been captured. They are the enemy. Period.

Yes, they are defending their country. They are still out enemies. I'm sure that not one of the enemy would think twice about "abusing" an American captive.

rsl12 · 05-04-2004, 04:36 PM

set aside any thoughs of geneva conventions and think pure realpolitik. this is bad bad news for the american PR with all countries, in particular iraq, no matter what the internationally agreed conventions are.

Rudel73 · 05-04-2004, 04:42 PM

I can't believe you people complain about us abusing prisoners when they are the ones Ambushing our soldiers! They brought all of this on themselves, if they didnt ambush soldiers after the war or just gave up the information we want none of the Abuse would happen.

Face it, war is war, and its not meant to be pretty. If you think prisoner abuse is bad you would probably hate to see what war is really like, not the crap they show on TV.

perripken · 05-04-2004, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TM875

I'm sure that not one of the enemy would think twice about "abusing" an American captive.

Actually Mr. Hamill who just escaped it seems was taken care of pretty well, right down to surgery on his injured arm. Yes, there are Iraqi's who would torture our soldiers if they were prisoners, but only a handfull of idiot's like the handfull of idiot american MP's that tortured the Iraqi's. I will say it again, these idiots created a huge setback in us ever getting respect from the Iraqi people, not to mention the fact that this gives terrorists even more reason to hate us!

moonstrucksoul · 05-04-2004, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TM875
Perhaps I haven't stated it here enough, but I have always been a big opponent of the Geneva Convention, and even the 8th amendment (cruel and unusual punishment) for that matter.

These are prisoners. They have been captured. They are the enemy. Period.

Nazis considered Jews to be their enemy.

Quote:

Yes, they are defending their country. They are still out enemies. I'm sure that not one of the enemy would think twice about "abusing" an American captive.

what they would do is irregardless, that doesn't make it right. WE are not above the law.

User Name · 05-04-2004, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by moonstrucksoul
Nazis considered Jews to be their enemy.

Even though this isn't Usenet, Godwin's Law apparently applies.

http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms...win_s_Law.html

moonstrucksoul · 05-04-2004, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by User Name
Even though this isn't Usenet, Godwin's Law apparently applies.

that doesn't reduce the validity of my statement

Astrocloud · 05-04-2004, 06:20 PM

I'm still trying to figure out what is written on that prisoner... Also is that a naked breast next to him? This woman keeps pointing to the Iraqi's dicks and giving the thumbs up... Doesn't this strike anyone as just plain weird? I mean it's not even that evil -just fuckin weird. I mean is she pointing out the more well hung members of the Iraqi brigade?

I don't get it. I wish someone knew and could spell it out for me.

anleja · 05-04-2004, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Astrocloud
I'm still trying to figure out what is written on that prisoner... Also is that a naked breast next to him? This woman keeps pointing to the Iraqi's dicks and giving the thumbs up... Doesn't this strike anyone as just plain weird? I mean it's not even that evil -just fuckin weird. I mean is she pointing out the more well hung members of the Iraqi brigade?

I don't get it. I wish someone knew and could spell it out for me.

I think it says "RAPEIST", I can tell the part on the left is a butt, the part on the right looks kinda butt-like.

As far as the pointing, I think she is making a gun with her hands.

slvrnblck · 05-04-2004, 06:48 PM

Its funny how its OK for Americans to do as they wish, but god forbid any other country even thinks about doing anything. Americans could torture and kill and its ok, but if an iraqi tortures and kills, death to them all. America could bomb any country they want, but if another country even thinks of such things they are the root of all evil. Some of you keep saying they are the enemy and that they brought it upon themselves. Last time I checked it was America who started the war. Do you expect the Iraqis to sit down and take bullets in the head. Of course they are going to fight back. But If Iraq invaded America, we should nuke the entire country and shoot every Iraqi we see, right?

viejo gringo · 05-04-2004, 07:02 PM

Yea, these poor prisonors---the same ones that convince young kids that it the right thing to do when they strap a explosive vest on them and send them on a suicide mission..

The one interview in our paper stated that he had been in that prison 3 times--2 under Saddam, and one under our forces...and our torture was the worst, BECAUSE THEY MADE HIM GET NAKED....NOW i SAY IF WE CAN GET TO THOSE ASSHOLES BY MAKING THEM GET NAKED, WE SHOULD STEAL ALL OF THEIR DAMN NIGHT GOWNS THAT THEY RUN AROUND IN...

---war is hell, and this is nothing compared to it...

thejoker130 · 05-04-2004, 07:04 PM

just imagine if it were american prisoners being abused by iraqi gaurds. all the people in this country who think its "cool" to abuse prisoners would be up in arms to blow the offending country off the map

this is the kind of shit that makes me ashamed to be an american....

perripken · 05-04-2004, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by viejo gringo
Yea, these poor prisonors---the same ones that convince young kids that it the right thing to do when they strap a explosive vest on them and send them on a suicide mission..

The one interview in our paper stated that he had been in that prison 3 times--2 under Saddam, and one under our forces...and our torture was the worst, BECAUSE THEY MADE HIM GET NAKED....NOW i SAY IF WE CAN GET TO THOSE ASSHOLES BY MAKING THEM GET NAKED, WE SHOULD STEAL ALL OF THEIR DAMN NIGHT GOWNS THAT THEY RUN AROUND IN...

---war is hell, and this is nothing compared to it...

You just don't get it! Because of this bad publicity, more of those people are going to be sending more of their young kids with explosive vests! It's bad enough that they hate us for no reason, now we're giving them more of a reason to hate us!

Pragma · 05-04-2004, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by slvrnblck
Its funny how its OK for Americans to do as they wish, but god forbid any other country even thinks about doing anything. Americans could torture and kill and its ok, but if an iraqi tortures and kills, death to them all.

First: it's not okay for a few US soldiers to torture Iraqis in this method. Unquestionably wrong on their part. It's a stupid fucking thing for them to do, and they will pay dearly once military justice takes its toll on them.

Second: This is not all Americans, this is not some Americans, this isn't even a few Americans. This is just a very small number of morons who make the rest of the nation look bad, and who make the armed forces look bad.

Third: No one should be allowed to torture prisoners, though that's not going to stop it from happening. That said, that's why the Geneva convention is useful - it provides an international law stating very explicitly that such things shouldn't be done, providing a method of prosecution and punishment. Whether or not the Iraqis give a shit about it, the US does - and the US follows the Geneva convention.

Just because a country follows the Geneva convention doesn't mean that violations don't happen - it means that they're dealt with properly if they occur.

clavus · 05-04-2004, 09:30 PM

American torture of prisoners involved getting them naked and having a naughty brunette point at their dicks.

The Arab World finds this "deeply humiliating." And, of course, if you are an Arab, you know that if you are deeply humilated, it is cool to beat, burn, electrocute, execute and mutilate Western prisoners.

Its also cool to shoot little kids off a playground and blow up busses full of people trying to get to work. After all, you were deeply humiliated.

And let's not forget the other things that deeply humilate the Arab World -

1) Having foreigners anywhere near your holy sites (which number roughly 4,236,486 per desert acre last time I checked)
2) Women doing anything except being hidden from view
3) Beer
4) Saying or doing anything which may be interpreted as being even slightly insulting to any Arab person, nation, terrorist institution or (gasp) Islam

Hey, it was wrong to do that to the prioners. It was way stupid to take pictures. But give me a fucking break. The people who are howling the loudest about this don't have a moral leg to stand on.

Mojo_PeiPei · 05-04-2004, 09:50 PM

^^ Here here

Tuffy_McGee · 05-04-2004, 09:51 PM

On one hand we may have violated the Geneva convention,
But on the other hand, you have to understand that the soldiers are just people. They are young men and women; they apparently didn't realize they represented our country when they did this.
I see it like a guy putting a banana between his legs and jumping around.

But those guys are all naked piled on one another. THAT IS SO NOT COOL.
You know that when too many guys get thrown into a police car it becomes a nightmare (like 4 just piled in double cuffed.) This is similar.

You know they fought against these men in a war. That leaves emotional scars.

Mephisto2 · 05-04-2004, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clavus
The people who are howling the loudest about this don't have a moral leg to stand on.

So that includes the Secretary of Defense and the President of the United States?

Wierd, eh? They are howling pretty loud about it, but as clavus says, "they don't have a moral leg to stand on".

Sheesh...

Mr Mephisto

Kostya · 05-05-2004, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by clavus
The people who are howling the loudest about this don't have a moral leg to stand on.

Um...

As far as I can tell, you seem to be suggesting that the 'Arabs' have some kind of special moral status which is racially or culturally related? wtf?

trav · 05-05-2004, 01:31 AM

All these pictures represent are those that got caught - there are many other cases the gov't chooses not to reveal or disclouse. The only reason they are apolagetic right now is because the pictures got revealed, otherwise it would have been buisness as usual. War and human right abuses go hand in hand - it is inebidible. There were 25 prisoners killed in that facility alone. You really think that is just an isolated case? Most of those detained in the prison are innocent people just rounded up for no reason...civilians. What do you think happens at other detention facilities?

Americans troops are in Iraq under the guise of democracy and liberation. They were there to oust a dictator that posed no threat to Americans. Its funny how some pictures of humiliated prisoners gets so much media attention yet the thousands of innocent civilians (10, 000 - 20, 000) being killed by "precision guided weapons" barely gets a passing thought.

Do you really have to be living outside America to see how unjust and disgusting the country is or does the general American public really not care?

Lebell · 05-05-2004, 01:33 AM

I fail to understand why some people here and elsewhere are taking this for more than it is, i.e. a reprehensible incident of abuse of prisoners by some guards.

Those guards (and their superiors if necessary) should be punished to the fullest extent of the law and the situation examined to minimize the possibility of it happening again.

Likewise, the entire US military and nation should not be indicted because of it.

tenchi069 · 05-05-2004, 01:59 AM

POW's are people. Soldiers are people. They should act like humans and be treated like humans. Punish the individuals that did the horrible acts and not the collection of people that wear the same uniform. The mistreatment of a POW is horrible regardless of what the POW did. The soldier in the field didn't do the things depicted, the medic in the mash didn't. It was a few low-lifes who thought it would be funny to do. I have a very positive view of our armed forces and I'm not going to let a few idiots change that.

Shard · 05-05-2004, 07:22 AM

Hmmm...I wonder how many people who claim that this was no big deal would scream for bloody murder if the Iraqi's captured female troops and pulled this kind of stunt? Yes imagine that, dozens of cute little Jessica Lynchs being stripped naked and forced to do whatever their captors want them to...no big deal right? I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

For those who are deriding the Geneva convention, care to look up what the death rates for Russian POWs were in WW2 (whom did not sign the convention) compared American POWs? Yeah you sure as hell support the troops the way your care about how they might be treated if captured...the same way those asshats who thought it was really funny to do this to prisioners helped out their mates by taking photos that would inflame the insurgents, good job, no really we need more hatred against American Troops. We signed the convention because we believe in basic human dignity and rights, obviously some here don't...maybe they should try out for the opposite team since their ideology seem so similar

splck · 05-05-2004, 07:32 AM

The fact that some here think this shit is ok and even justifiable is quite sad.

onetime2 · 05-05-2004, 07:49 AM

Nowhere do I see anyone saying this is ok yet some here claim that's what people are saying. I don't get it.

Lebell · 05-05-2004, 07:50 AM

The sarcasm towards fellow TFP'ers needs to be toned down.

05-03-2004, 05:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
perripken Now a registered fossil Location: Home of the shrinking Kodak	Iraqi Prisoner abuse I can't believe what a setback these douchebags created for the United States! Whatever trust we were getting from some of the Iraqi's was just thrown out of the window. These idiots should be locked up for good! I don't care if they were serving our country! I also can't believe George W. hasn't held a press conference condemning what they did. He needs to save face for our country! Don't get me wrong, I totally support our troops, but this handful of idiots just made a total mockery of everything we stand for. Sorry.... had to rant! __________________ And in the end, it’s not the years in your life that count. It’s the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln

05-03-2004, 05:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	It was the Brit pics I believe that they are coming out and claiming as fake. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

05-03-2004, 05:55 PM	#4 (permalink)
perripken Now a registered fossil Location: Home of the shrinking Kodak	I hope they're fakes, and if they are, I apologize to the soldiers I called douchebags. I have the upmost respect for our armed forces. __________________ And in the end, it’s not the years in your life that count. It’s the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln

05-03-2004, 06:00 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	No reason to apologize, doesn't excuse the actions of the Americans. Just mostly goes to show how badly some people want this war to fail, they will fabricate false information that will incite more violence and hatred. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

05-03-2004, 07:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
The.Lunatic Psycho Location: Somewhere just beyond the realm of sanity...	Hmm, i put my trust in the american forces to do the right thing, but i won't stand for people badmouthing everyone for the actions of a few. I mean there are pussies in france, but does that make the whole country a bunch of pussy fairyies... Oh wait yes it does huh, oh well too bad for the iraqi's i guess. __________________ Proud memeber of the Insomniac Club.

05-03-2004, 05:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
Otaku Tilted	i heard reports that the pics werent real (or was it the brit's pics?) Something about the wrong rifles and uniforms? Or is that just more spin?

05-04-2004, 02:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
BDozer Upright	Former prisoners and a Reserve army Sgt. are both confirmation that those pictures (the American ones) are real.

05-04-2004, 02:31 PM	#10 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	Here are some of the photos (Someone please tell me what this says... I can't make it out) She seems obsessed with male genitals which is normally a good thing...

05-04-2004, 03:08 PM	#11 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	Stanford Prison Experiment From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The Stanford Prison Experiment was a landmark psychological study of the human response to captivity, in particular, to the real world circumstances of prison life. It was conducted in 1971 by Philip Zimbardo of Stanford University. Subjects were randomly assigned to play the role of "prisoner" or "guard". Those assigned to play the role of guard were given sticks and sunglasses; those assigned to play the prisoner role were arrested by the Palo Alto police department, deloused, forced to wear chains and prison garments, and transported to the basement of the Stanford psychology department, which had been converted into a makeshift jail. Several of the guards became progressively more sadistic - particularly at night when they thought the cameras were off, despite being picked by chance out of the same pool as the prisoners. The experiment very quickly got out of hand. A riot broke out on day two. One prisoner developed a psychosomatic rash all over his body upon finding out that his "parole" had been turned down. After only 6 days (of a planned two weeks), the experiment was shut down, for fear that one of the prisoners would be seriously hurt. Although the intent of the experiment was to examine captivity, its result has been used to demonstrate the impressionability and obedience of people when provided with a legitimizing ideology and social and institutional support. It also used to illustrate cognitive dissonance theory and the power of seniority/authority.

05-04-2004, 03:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
TM875 Addict Location: Amish-land, PA	May I just comment on the dissenting side... These Iraquis are our PRISONERS. That means that they have done something wrong that has forced us to incarcerate them. As long as we are not killing them or permantly injuring them, they are still ours. Astrocloud made a very good point with the Stanford prison experiment. Anyone in power will excercise that power to the utmost extent, even if this means "abuse". Nonetheless, the term "abuse" should be used sparingly in the regards to criminals. Lets face it, if they weren't fighting against us right now, they wouldn't have been in prison, now would they? And, on the other view of the subject, if we had just blown that little sand pit out of the ocean a year ago (like we rightly should have done), they certainly wouldn't have been in prison and wouldn't have been "abused". __________________ "I've made only one mistake in my life. But I made it over and over and over. That was saying 'yes' when I meant 'no'. Forgive me."

05-04-2004, 04:31 PM	#15 (permalink)
TM875 Addict Location: Amish-land, PA	Perhaps I haven't stated it here enough, but I have always been a big opponent of the Geneva Convention, and even the 8th amendment (cruel and unusual punishment) for that matter. These are prisoners. They have been captured. They are the enemy. Period. Yes, they are defending their country. They are still out enemies. I'm sure that not one of the enemy would think twice about "abusing" an American captive. __________________ "I've made only one mistake in my life. But I made it over and over and over. That was saying 'yes' when I meant 'no'. Forgive me."

05-04-2004, 04:36 PM	#16 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	set aside any thoughs of geneva conventions and think pure realpolitik. this is bad bad news for the american PR with all countries, in particular iraq, no matter what the internationally agreed conventions are. __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

05-04-2004, 04:42 PM	#17 (permalink)
Rudel73 Psycho	I can't believe you people complain about us abusing prisoners when they are the ones Ambushing our soldiers! They brought all of this on themselves, if they didnt ambush soldiers after the war or just gave up the information we want none of the Abuse would happen. Face it, war is war, and its not meant to be pretty. If you think prisoner abuse is bad you would probably hate to see what war is really like, not the crap they show on TV.

05-04-2004, 06:20 PM	#22 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	I'm still trying to figure out what is written on that prisoner... Also is that a naked breast next to him? This woman keeps pointing to the Iraqi's dicks and giving the thumbs up... Doesn't this strike anyone as just plain weird? I mean it's not even that evil -just fuckin weird. I mean is she pointing out the more well hung members of the Iraqi brigade? I don't get it. I wish someone knew and could spell it out for me.

05-04-2004, 06:48 PM	#24 (permalink)
slvrnblck Banned	Its funny how its OK for Americans to do as they wish, but god forbid any other country even thinks about doing anything. Americans could torture and kill and its ok, but if an iraqi tortures and kills, death to them all. America could bomb any country they want, but if another country even thinks of such things they are the root of all evil. Some of you keep saying they are the enemy and that they brought it upon themselves. Last time I checked it was America who started the war. Do you expect the Iraqis to sit down and take bullets in the head. Of course they are going to fight back. But If Iraq invaded America, we should nuke the entire country and shoot every Iraqi we see, right?

05-04-2004, 07:02 PM	#25 (permalink)
viejo gringo Registered User Location: Deep South Texas	Yea, these poor prisonors---the same ones that convince young kids that it the right thing to do when they strap a explosive vest on them and send them on a suicide mission.. The one interview in our paper stated that he had been in that prison 3 times--2 under Saddam, and one under our forces...and our torture was the worst, BECAUSE THEY MADE HIM GET NAKED....NOW i SAY IF WE CAN GET TO THOSE ASSHOLES BY MAKING THEM GET NAKED, WE SHOULD STEAL ALL OF THEIR DAMN NIGHT GOWNS THAT THEY RUN AROUND IN... ---war is hell, and this is nothing compared to it...

05-04-2004, 07:04 PM	#26 (permalink)
thejoker130 Insane Location: slippery rock university AKA: The left ass cheek of the world	just imagine if it were american prisoners being abused by iraqi gaurds. all the people in this country who think its "cool" to abuse prisoners would be up in arms to blow the offending country off the map this is the kind of shit that makes me ashamed to be an american.... __________________ WHAT MORE CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? ------------------------------------- I like you. When the world is mine your death will be quick and painless.

05-04-2004, 09:30 PM	#29 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	American torture of prisoners involved getting them naked and having a naughty brunette point at their dicks. The Arab World finds this "deeply humiliating." And, of course, if you are an Arab, you know that if you are deeply humilated, it is cool to beat, burn, electrocute, execute and mutilate Western prisoners. Its also cool to shoot little kids off a playground and blow up busses full of people trying to get to work. After all, you were deeply humiliated. And let's not forget the other things that deeply humilate the Arab World - 1) Having foreigners anywhere near your holy sites (which number roughly 4,236,486 per desert acre last time I checked) 2) Women doing anything except being hidden from view 3) Beer 4) Saying or doing anything which may be interpreted as being even slightly insulting to any Arab person, nation, terrorist institution or (gasp) Islam Hey, it was wrong to do that to the prioners. It was way stupid to take pictures. But give me a fucking break. The people who are howling the loudest about this don't have a moral leg to stand on. __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

05-04-2004, 09:50 PM	#30 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	^^ Here here __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

05-04-2004, 09:51 PM	#31 (permalink)
Tuffy_McGee Crazy	On one hand we may have violated the Geneva convention, But on the other hand, you have to understand that the soldiers are just people. They are young men and women; they apparently didn't realize they represented our country when they did this. I see it like a guy putting a banana between his legs and jumping around. But those guys are all naked piled on one another. THAT IS SO NOT COOL. You know that when too many guys get thrown into a police car it becomes a nightmare (like 4 just piled in double cuffed.) This is similar. You know they fought against these men in a war. That leaves emotional scars.

05-05-2004, 01:31 AM	#34 (permalink)
trav Upright	All these pictures represent are those that got caught - there are many other cases the gov't chooses not to reveal or disclouse. The only reason they are apolagetic right now is because the pictures got revealed, otherwise it would have been buisness as usual. War and human right abuses go hand in hand - it is inebidible. There were 25 prisoners killed in that facility alone. You really think that is just an isolated case? Most of those detained in the prison are innocent people just rounded up for no reason...civilians. What do you think happens at other detention facilities? Americans troops are in Iraq under the guise of democracy and liberation. They were there to oust a dictator that posed no threat to Americans. Its funny how some pictures of humiliated prisoners gets so much media attention yet the thousands of innocent civilians (10, 000 - 20, 000) being killed by "precision guided weapons" barely gets a passing thought. Do you really have to be living outside America to see how unjust and disgusting the country is or does the general American public really not care?

05-05-2004, 01:33 AM	#35 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I fail to understand why some people here and elsewhere are taking this for more than it is, i.e. a reprehensible incident of abuse of prisoners by some guards. Those guards (and their superiors if necessary) should be punished to the fullest extent of the law and the situation examined to minimize the possibility of it happening again. Likewise, the entire US military and nation should not be indicted because of it. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

05-05-2004, 01:59 AM	#36 (permalink)
tenchi069 Lost Location: One step closer to the padded cell...	POW's are people. Soldiers are people. They should act like humans and be treated like humans. Punish the individuals that did the horrible acts and not the collection of people that wear the same uniform. The mistreatment of a POW is horrible regardless of what the POW did. The soldier in the field didn't do the things depicted, the medic in the mash didn't. It was a few low-lifes who thought it would be funny to do. I have a very positive view of our armed forces and I'm not going to let a few idiots change that. __________________ ERROR- PLBSAK Problem Lies Between Seat and Keyboard.

05-05-2004, 07:22 AM	#37 (permalink)
Shard Upright	Hmmm...I wonder how many people who claim that this was no big deal would scream for bloody murder if the Iraqi's captured female troops and pulled this kind of stunt? Yes imagine that, dozens of cute little Jessica Lynchs being stripped naked and forced to do whatever their captors want them to...no big deal right? I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning. For those who are deriding the Geneva convention, care to look up what the death rates for Russian POWs were in WW2 (whom did not sign the convention) compared American POWs? Yeah you sure as hell support the troops the way your care about how they might be treated if captured...the same way those asshats who thought it was really funny to do this to prisioners helped out their mates by taking photos that would inflame the insurgents, good job, no really we need more hatred against American Troops. We signed the convention because we believe in basic human dignity and rights, obviously some here don't...maybe they should try out for the opposite team since their ideology seem so similar

05-05-2004, 07:32 AM	#38 (permalink)
splck it's jam Location: Lowerainland BC	The fact that some here think this shit is ok and even justifiable is quite sad. __________________ nice line eh?

05-05-2004, 07:49 AM	#39 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	Nowhere do I see anyone saying this is ok yet some here claim that's what people are saying. I don't get it. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

05-05-2004, 07:50 AM	#40 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	The sarcasm towards fellow TFP'ers needs to be toned down. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!