soccerchamp76

At my high school you are not allowed to smoke within one-mile of school or at any school events/school sponsored events. The one-mile rule is generally not enforced at all. But a kid on the wrestling team was kicked off for walking to a wrestling match smoking (ironic, wrestling, with endurance, and a smoker) in the parking lot.

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twilightfoix

i tell ya, if anyone tried to pull that with, the motherhuckin shit would hit the motherhuckin fans bitch. i'd have to go all out if they tried to keep me from doing somthin legal in a legal place. and just in case if that girl would be reading this, good luck to her.

analog

Before I begin, I will preface my argument by saying I am a not a tobacco smoker.

So let's dissect an argument here.

You're telling me that regardless of the fact that it's perfectly legal to do so, the company I work for has the right to tell me I can't smoke when I'm not on duty?

Your justification for this, as I understand it, is because "you don't have to take the job".

How can you tell me something as flimsy as "well, you don't have to work here/go to school here" is a good argument?

My response would be, "well you don't HAVE to stick your nose in MY fucking business, that's what YOU don't have to do."

You would call this a stupid argument, but since it's a word-for-word contradiction to YOUR argument, I think it's a perfectly fine rebuttal. It shows just how absurd your argument is to begin with- being able to be cut down by a simple contradiction of terms.

In the privacy of my own home, behind closed doors, off-duty, and with the permission of the government (smoking tobacco IS legal, after all), I would tell them to shove that contract up their holier-than-thou ass and kiss my basic human rights. Working for your company or not, it is BULLSHIT to tell me what I can or can not do something that is legal and HAS NO EFFECT ON YOU WHATSOEVER.

Boo

I have lived in Grand Forks. These people will disagree to all the liberal thoughts that you may have including gay marriage, nose rings, tatoos, etc............

Heartland conservatives. Hard core religious and armed too. Very high alcoholism rate too.

BTW, at one time, Grand Forks County was in the top 10 for the number of millionaires per capita in the US. They have money AND they vote. Also the highest number of tree shelter belts.

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smooth

I don't know who's argument you are rebutting, but you certainly didn't address my point that smoking has long-term, deleterious effects on one's health. Given that a corporation has to provide for its workers' health care, smoking certainly does have an effect on the company.

I can think of other reasons, as well. But I'll wait until you address that one.

According to the government, this is seen as a viable reason to control behavior. Witness, for example, motorcycle helmet and seatbelt laws.

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Cynthetiq

St. Thomas Aquinas College in Santa Paula, CA has similar policies. It's a Private Roman Catholic school.

Mind you, the private Catholic HS I went to had Jewish students, they had to attend religion as part of the curriculum, AND they had to attend Mass during school hours. They had to learn prayers and also bible study.

Discrimantory to Jewish people? No, they choose to want to attend the school, thus have to abide by the rules set forth.

Just for those that don't know there are even SCHOLARSHIPS that bar people from doing certain activities. A friend who had a scholarship at Boulder, CO wasn't allowed to go skiing. If he broke his leg it stopped him from playing football which is what the scholarship was.

Remember, you walk in knowing what the rules and consequences are, this shouldn't even be a discussion. i can understand if it's new and not told to you when you enrolled or were hired.

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analog

No problem. I didn't mean to overlook your argument, I apologize.

Let's assume I smoke NOW, and I quit smoking because my company tells me, "it has long-term, deleterious effects on one's health and, given that we provide for our workers' health care, smoking certainly does have an effect on us here at the company."

Cool- now I don't smoke and you don't have to worry.

[heavily laden with sarcasm]
But wait- I just had 4 Big Macs. And a shake. And a super-sized fry. You better tell me what I can and can't eat, too, because that can have bad long-term effects on my health. Oh- i wouldn't get fat, no sir, but MY GOD will my arteries be clogged!! My cholesterol count would look like a pinball score! I don't want you paying for my self-inflicted ailments.

I should chill out on the coffee and Mountain Dew, since caffeine could lead to hypertension...

I guess alcohol is totally out of the question.

I suppose I also can't skydive or parachute, surf, skinboard, skateboard, rollerblade, play sports (tennis elbow bills could pile up, have to think of the company first), ride a bike, or have sex since I might hurt myself and the company supports my healthcare... hell, I shouldn't be driving in my condition! What if I got in an accident and was hurt? MY GOD, WHAT WOULD THE COMPANY DO, FOOTING MY MEDICAL BILLS?? Those poor people!! I'm a walking timebomb and I'm snubbing my nose at the company that pays my insurance!!

Oh, cruel fate, why do you mock me?

**cries for an hour**

[/heavily laden with sarcasm]

They should keep their hands out of my life.

P.S.- just to add on... 2/3 of american adults are considered obese. Are you going to fire them all because they're OBVIOUSLY harming themselves, and putting the company in a spot to foot the bill for their poor lifestyle choices?

smooth

Right now companies are opting out of paying for their employees' medical bills. Premiums are skyrocketing, and people continue to do all the things you list because they have a right to.

I don't know the corporation's position on why a person can't smoke. But the health care is a legitimate issue, if they wanted it to be. They could have barred someone from smoking, but that doesn't mean they have to bar you from eating junk food. I suppose they could, but the fact that they choose not to doesn't undermine the policy.

In fact, one could argue that their choice not to control every aspect of your personal life, and your agreement to concede partial control over your affairs, bolsters my point that consensual agreements between workers and employers about appropriate conduct is as much a legitimate contract in a capitalist economy as your decision to work somewhere that doesn't care what you do on your free time.

edit: my apologies, I forgot what thread I was in. I didn't mean to take this discussion so far afield.

My main point is that I'm glad someone is watching out for the youth still in schools. Parents aren't as capable as they were years ago. Significant amounts of fathers are absent from many youths lives--both from carelessness and prison sentences. Mothers have to work for income instead of earning a wage for working at the home. Even dual parent families were eventually pushed into the workforce. This dilemma of adequate minor supervision in an advanced industrialized nation is now effecting all class levels, except for the wealthiest slices of society and those who haven't been pared from the upper-middle class bracket yet.

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qtpye4u84

If she was off school grounds, but was skipping school to smoke some where, the cops in oregon know when students should be in school so if they see you down town during school hours you get into trouble also but missing prom thats not fair.

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Yakk

Well, you looked in the wrong place.

It is illegal to discriminate along some limited grounds.

You can only hire non-idiots, fire slackers, and insist that your employees know how to tie a granny-knot. All of these discriminate.

*sigh*, it is discrimination even if they choose to single out all unhealthy activities.

You just don't think it is 'fair' unless they do that.

You have the right to do whatever you want.

You have the right to live with the consequences when you are an idiot and do stupid things.

You do not have the right to be shielded from the consequences of your stupid things.

People who own companies have basically the same rights.

You can choose to be a smoker, but you have the obligation to live with the consequences of your action. Including not working for companies who choose to disallow it.

You seem to think that 'legal' is the only valid restriction on behaviour.

Legal and Illegal are simply terms that define what rules the government will enforce.

Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it has no consequences. It is legal to drop out of school. Dispite this, a company does not have to hire high school dropouts. It is legal to smoke. Dispite this, a company does not have to hire smokers.

Go ahead. You are allowed to sue people. And, they are allowed to countersue for the frivolous lawsuit. I'd advise you to check up with a lawyer before you get sue happy.

No.

Oops, you missed a step. If people stand up for themselves, and the rest of society agrees they have a point, they will expand it again.

Either convince them to let you go waterskiing, don't waterski, lie, or get a new job.

I think companies that don't let you go waterskiing are idiotic, but they can be idiotic with their money if they want.

You could probably be hit with 'as if' or 'your regulations effectively discriminate along illegal lines'.

Yes, the company doesn't have to monitor your smoking.

You don't have to monitor the stock price, or ethical behaviour, of your corperation.

There are many things you don't have to do, but you are allowed to do.

Companies are allowed to be busybodies and require silly things of their employees. They can pick whom they give money to. Employees are allowed to be busybodies and require silly things of their employer. They can pick who they will work for. Stupid companies who require silly things of employees should be avoided, and stpuid employees who require silly things from companies should be avoided.

That which is not permitted is not that which is forbidden.

Which is exactly why your arguement is stupid.

I agree. Don't work for the fucktards.

They'll end up having to pay their workers more to attract people willing to live with a nanny company, and have to charge their customers more, and should be out competed and crushed into dust.

But, that isn't up to you to decide for them. They are free to be idiots all they want.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Cynthetiq

Because you agreed to it.

You don't have to like it, you don't have to eat it. You just have to live with the consequences of your choices.

I understand where you are coming from. I used to smoke pot and drink heavily. I got paid for MENTAL CAPACITY. So I don't smoke don't drink on the job. But what I did on my own time was my own business. Had the given drug tests, I would have NOT worked there for the VERY reasons you state.

I made my choices. I live with the consequenses of those choices. It limited places that I could work. While I would have loved to work for some companies that I had to turn down because of their hiring practices, I wouldn't call it discrimanatory in any shape.

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Bill O'Rights

Holy Crap!!
I need to start checking my threads more often. This is way off the topic. It's not about the workplace, or even a college campus. It's a high school, for crying out loud!

Everyone on this thread has raised some very valid points. But, my original point was that what right does a high school have getting that involved in a student's (legal adult's) private life. They have every right to tell her what she can, and cannot, do on their property...but not beyond that. I see this as an intrusive invasion of her personal life.

I do like the way that this thread has evolved, though. Where are the limits to any organizations control over it's members? How much inflence should said organization have over it's members? It raises a plethora of very valid questions.

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Cynthetiq

Here's what the school I went to HS had to say about things...

http://ndhs.org/Files/studentparenthandbook.pdf
There were at least 3 other schools I could have chosen but since I was 8 I wanted to go to that school. I had to abide by ALL the rules laid down.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

moonstrucksoul

for all those who keep saying that it's "legal to smoke", it also legal to create a contract to say don't smoke or else . . ..

the right the high school has is to enforce the contract the student signed, if she signed one. If she didn't sign one, then the school can just fuck off.

I believe that Microsoft has policy that workers take breaks from there computers often, go for walks around campus, or do some other excercise, for an period of time during each day. because it helps stimulate the mind. is anybody gonna argue with that?
"DAMN YOU, Microsoft for making me stop writing code and go play foosball for a half hour!"
any MS employees who can verify this ?

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smooth

kutulu

I think everybody's said what there is to say here, I'll just try to end my part by saying that an organization should be able to exert control over your actions when you are on their time or their property. That goes for schools, work, whatever but once you are on your time and away from their property they shouldn't be able to stick their nose into your business.

People bring up that there is no law supporting it, so fucking what! Civil liberties and privacy laws are usually behind the times. The reason why they are even put in place is because people's rights were being exploited, otherwise there's no fucking reason to have the law in the first place.

Someone listed a university that had all sorts of crazy rules to follow. However crazy these rules were, most of them related to conduct and actions by students while on campus. Those rules are fine with me but if the student is off campus those rules should not apply. The same goes for employers.

We've allowed corporations go way too far into our personal lives. We need to strike back and tell them that they aren't going to do that any more. I could also throw HOA's into this arguement, but that's an thread to itself.

The_wall

Well I never really read the contracts I signed the first few days in HS, but I don't think they said I couldn't smoke outside of school because kids would smoke just off school property before and after school all the time. However its bullshit that a kid would have to sign such a thing in a public highschool. Public schools should have no right to try and enforce any rule off school grounds.

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raeanna74

Don't laugh. Colleges like this exist. I graduated from one. It was a private college. They accepted no government grant or anything form the government. They were a religious college. My sister in law was kicked out of school in her first semester when they found out that she's tried smoking ONE time the summer prior to her enrolling in college. Her parents were on faculty so went along with it though they protested to the school in written form. She went back and will be graduating this spring. At that school the rules in general were as follows. No TV (unless sports events supervised by a school authority), no rock music, rap, CCM, etc. Only classical and traditional religious, no skirts above the knee, girls - no pants or slacks to class, town, anywhere but the gym, No girls allowed in the boys dorm, and visa versa, no sex, kissing, hand holding (6 inch rule - 6 inches between a guy an girl when seated)... Shall I go on? I survived. I put up with MOST of the rules because it weeded out the students who weren't there for the education. I feel that my education was exceptional and that I was less distracted by parties and such because of the strict rigid rules. I saw students kicked out for kissing, TPing the water tower and other "semi-serious" offenses. The student body grew from about 300 students in 1994 to about 800 last year.

I don't think this kind of regulation should be allowed in a public school. If it's a private school though - you have a choice - if you don't like it you can leave. For private schools it's party a method of weeding out the students who don't have the same goals as the school and they can keep their student body of a certain type. Less conflict in the student body I think. Granted hubby and I both agree that the school has gone overboard and not moved with the times but it's their way. If my daughter ever decided to go to a school like that she had better abide by the contract she signs agreeing to abide by their rules. Otherwise (unless they carried the punishment to the extreme as in my sister-in-laws case) I will back up the school if she breaks the rules. She can go where she wants but she lives with what she chooses.

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Cynthetiq

you obviously MISSED this
as for homeowners associations yes, that's a whole different thread, but still if you AGREE to something before and you DON'T want to abide by it WTF are you doing there in the first place? Why ruin it for those that are trying to abide and live by rules?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

kutulu

you obviously MISSED this

Cynthetiq, either you're ignoring the point or you're totally missing my point. The point is that we are allowing our job or our schools to go beyond our working time and dictate what we do in our PRIVATE time.

Several people have brought up the fact that people can just "find another job" as if you just walk into wherever you want and they hire you no questions asked. It's not that fucking easy. Have you bothered to check the unemployment rates lately? Have you been looking for a job lately? I have and there isn't shit in my field right now. I've had my resume reviewed by several professional recruiters, hr people, etc. they all say I wrote an excellent one. My grades are good and I have experience, yet there's so much competition that I've gone nowhere. Say I finally find what I'm looking for but wait, they don't allow employees to smoke. I'm then faced with keeping the job that isn't going to make enough money once my kid is born or working at a place that FORCES me to change my lifestyle, a lifestyle that has NEVER caused me to miss work or use one penny of my medical coverage and is 100% LEGAL. These policies are becoming more and more common. Eventually people who make certain LEGAL life decisions will face fewer and fewer job or schooling opportunities. It's not fucking right and its completely un-American.

The constitution guarantees us life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. When did we decide that corporations should be allowed to trump those rights?

The basis of the arguement is that organizations should not be allowed to force such agreements on people.

The_wall

Very well said Kutulu, I agree with you 100%.

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Cynthetiq

Kuthulu,

I think that you are missing MY point completely. I agree with what you are saying on it's face.

But let's work with REALITY.

I have a private company or school. I can within reason CHOOSE certain criteria for people to abide by, and ask that ALL people that wish to participate abide by it.

If you look in the paper and you see that people are unemployed you can make a choice. I either agree or disagree. Simple, there's not much more after that. You disagree and you have to live with that choice.

The high school that I went to as you could see infringed on some of my PRIVATE time, but that was MY choice to go to that school.

Why are you then infringing on MY RIGHT to create a WHOLESOME company or school environmnet? I choose to attend something with STRUCTURE.

Just like here, you seem to find that there's no flaming here. People have registered here and say, "This sucks because I can't flame people. The mods suck because they edit what I say and inhibit me from my freedom of speech." Why then shouldn't we allow that? Because Halx has stated in HIS CHARTER. But isn't that CENSORSHIP? What about the First Amendment?

It's the SAME THING. It's the SAME principle. The idea of choice is what is totally American. You vote with your feet and your dollars.

yes, I looked for a job. I was laid off and unemployed for close to 1 year. I have long hair to my waist which instantly makes it next to impossible for me to work in a financial company because of their dress code. So I had to make a choice at some point in time, either I cut my hair and try to be presentable enough to get hired by a financial company, or keep my hair. I chose to keep it, this time, but there was a time in my life that I had to abide by a different set of rules and I chose to NOT cut it. MY CHOICE. I had people offering me jobs ask me if I would cut it, and I said sure, you put an offer letter in my hand and I'll cut my hair the moment I sign it. For some reason I never got those offer letters.

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moonstrucksoul

or an online community? maybe? wake up, people.

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The_wall

"Why are you then infringing on MY RIGHT to create a WHOLESOME company or school environmnet? I choose to attend something with STRUCTURE."

Well we aren't arguing that the company owners can impose certain rules on company property, its off the property that we are debating.

The company is infriging on my right to do an activity that is legal to do. Now sure I'm not forced into this job, but like Kutulu said, getting a job isn't exactly that easy, and having a decent paying job that a person can at least support ones self is neccessary.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that companies, I don't think, should be allowed to impose rules such as you aren't allowed to smoke off company property because of the importance of having a job is in todays world.

Similar to the concept for having anti-trust laws. One can argue that its the buisness owners right to lower prices so competeing buisness's can't, well, compete, and then when they go out of buisness jack up prices again, but it just isn't right to do that and hurts the nation as a whole economically.

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kutulu

You cannot compare a message board to feeding your family. Its an entirely different dimension.

So you've also experienced troubles related to this yet you see nothing wrong with it. That totally baffles me.

All of these things are bullshit as are many things in society. The only way to change this is for people to get sick of it and say that they won't stand for it any more.

Your situation is different from the topic. You can't take away the long hair when you're at work. People are able to not smoke while they are at work. It may suck, but they can and will do it.

moonstrucksoul

it's the same principle, - a set of guidelines that you agree to adhere to, or else. and if you don't like, go elsewhere, and feed your family with money you get from a company that lets you smoke your brains out, whenever, whereever.

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Cynthetiq

It's not different at all, it's called CHOICES.

And we are debating about being able to extend those same choices from the private property of the company to the private property of the employee.

It's a choice. You can complain all you want, but as a hiring manager, if you don't like the policy there's the door. I've said it plenty of times. I've had PLENTY of people sit back down in their seats when they think about the mortgage, rent, car payments, tuition payments, etc.

My hair is part of my identity, in fact, if I dig deep down inside I probably can even say it's part of my heritage. But truly it's part of my lifestyle, and well my lifestyle conflicts with that of the financial companies employment practices.

I'm going to give quarter to PUBLIC SCHOOLS and GOVERMENT JOBS having to be more tolerant, but PRIVATELY companies, and PRIVATE schools have every right to make that request and enforce it. You have every right to revoke it and call it unacceptable to your standards of living and can choose to not participate with such companies or schools.

I find Liberty College unacceptable to my standards, and the same with St. Thomas Acquinas College, but I hardly find it American to impose my values on them as they should not impose theirs on me.

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kutulu

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree cause I'll never agree that my job should be able to dictate what I can do with my personal time.

Cynthetiq

and that's what choices are all about. I'm willing to make different compromises that you, but that does not make them wrong for either party.

EDIT.... oh, and I've made some additional compromises because of $$$, an additional $20k to my base salary made me compromise some things that I thought were really important to me in my 20's that now don't make that much of a difference, but the additional $20k gave me much more choices in exchange for restrictions that didn't matter to me anymore, example. I quit smoking 7 years ago.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Prince

Beautiful. It seems like every fucking week there's another news article about some school in the middle of nowhere coming up with some fucked up rule or punishing a student for a no-good reason.

Are these schools so hard up for publicity that they'll take any sort of PR they can get, or are they so afraid of being sued for various things that they will go to any extreme to cover their asses?

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analog

[NOTE: I called my argument stupid first, he is NOT flaming me.]

That makes no sense.

Forbidden:
1. To command (someone) not to do something: I forbid you to go.
2. To command against the doing or use of (something); prohibit:

So how exactly is that not the same as "not permitted", and how does that relate to what I argued?

tangledweb

Choose and lose. I agree with Cynthetiq on much of the arguement presented here except in the original case of the HS Girl. If she is at a public school and legally able to smoke, she should be able to do so anywhere that it is legal.

If she is at a private school, she plays by THEIR rules or she has to go.

"Fatz Man, Let me tell you my story..."

I had an employee that smoked pot. I knew he smoked it and told him that he could do whatever he pleased as long as he kept it out of my business. In other words, I told him to keep it at home and I wouldn't bother him.
He was selling to others to fund his habit. He had pot in his car and would meet up with people and sell in my back parking lot. I confronted him and told him it had better not happen again. I explained that he was AT work even though he wasn't IN work and that he could cause me to get shut down, thus denying me a way to make a living. I sell to lots of kids and minors and a pot charge to one of my employees would be a death sentence to my business...Literally! He agreed to my terms and went back to work.

Two days later he handed a bag of weed to a fellow employee IN THE STORE and also did a deal in the back lot with a customer. I FIRED him like a fucking gun. I also nearly beat the living shit out of him for gambling my families future on his dope habit!

Does that make me a dick for interfering in HIS personal activities?

His personal activities cost him his job just the same. I tell most people who ask that the guy moved away but he really got fired for being STUPID. His choice, not mine.

samiam

Once a school board accepts a zero tolerance policy things like this will happen. There was the kid who was expelled for bringing cutlery to school to eat lunch. The comments about the school's job be to help kids learn are right on, but what happened between the 60's and now. Schools have become the moral guardians of society.

kutulu

You should have fired him the first time he did a deal while working, still that is waaay off from smoking cigarettes away from work.

analog

No, it does not make you a dick, but it also does not make your story relevant. He DIDN'T keep it out of work, like you told him to. Had he NOT been a moron, and NOT brought it to work/etc. he'd have been fine... and you still would be allowing him his personal privacy.

He broke the line and came into the store with it... his bad, on his terms. You were nothing but fair, and I applaud your open-mindedness... i just hope his stupidity doesn't keep you from extending the courtesy to another.

Slims

That is true, but your friend is free to get another job...most high school students are not free to leave an oppressive educational environment.

It would be much like the NC government stating that by living in NC you are voluntarily giving up all of your civil rights because you could move somewhere else if you really wanted to excercise them. After all, that's what the position of most school boards is: Agree to do it our way, or drop out.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Yakk

I forbid you from crossing the road.

I permit you to eat the orange.

I never permitted you to eat an apple.

I never forbid you from eating an apple.

Eating an apple is neither forbidden nor permitted.

While forbidden and permitted seem like opposites, there is a large middle ground of "the rules don't cover this, do whatever you want". This is true in real life as well.

Hence, the first connection, while companies don't have to poke their nose in your business (they have no obligation to do so), they can if they choose to.

The second connection is the broken symmetry one:
You took "you don't have to work here" and generated "they don't have to stick their nose in my business". There is an apparent symmetry here, ie "it's a word-for-word contradiction to YOUR argument", but it isn't actually.

They don't have to stick their nose in your business. They can if they wish, but they do not have to. If they stick their nose in, or don't, they live with the consequences.

You do not have to work there. You can if you wish, but you do not have to. If you work there, or don't, you have to live with the consequences.

Just because you turned the terms around, doesn't mean you made a contradiction.

I apologize for being insufficiently clear. It should have been more closely tied to the previous section of my post, and I should have left less to implication.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

ariekitten

that first post really shocked me. that is so stupid, but then the link that js posted....well that shocked me even more! all the stupid things you can get fined for at that university! Like viewing/owning porn or abortion! GAH! and "two or more members of the opp sex in a motel room together". what is this world coming to? that violates the first ammendment imo, but i guess they signed up to go to that stupid school in the first place.

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I am known as Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III. Don't hesitate to call.
~Vash, Trigun

>'.'< kitty kitty, meow ^..^~

Holo

Topping for this latest story.



http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...410020328/1004

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Published October 2, 2004

Okemos firm bans all smoking
Weyco says employees will be fired if they smoke at work - or at all


By Barbara Wieland
Lansing State Journal

Smoking in Michigan

Smoking takes a toll in Michigan, financially and in terms of health:



• Smoking and secondhand smoking kill more than 300 Michigan residents a week.



• Ninety percent of lung cancer is smoking related.



• Lung cancer is the No. 1 cancer killer in Michigan.



• Smoking has surpassed breast cancer as the leading cause of cancer death in women.



• The state spends $880 million a year to treat tobacco-related illnesses of Medicaid patients.



Sources: American Lung Association of Michigan and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention


On Jan. 1, all of Weyco Inc.'s 200 employees will be nonsmokers - or lose their jobs.

On that day, the Okemos-based insurance benefits administrator will make it a fireable offense to smoke anywhere, anytime - including in the privacy of an employee's own home after business hours.

"You can do whatever you want, but if you're going to work here, you can't be a smoker, like you can't be a drug user," owner Howard Weyers said.

It's a move sure to spark controversy in a state where nearly 26 percent of all adults smoke.

Nonsmokers who support the policy say it will pare health care costs and improve employees' lives.

"I think it's great. The intent of the policy is to help employees become healthier," said Mari Damerow, a benefits manager for Weyco.

Smokers say it tramples their rights and invades their privacy.

"I think it's pretty stupid," said Cooley Law School student Cal Eustaquio, 42, as he puffed on a torpedo cigar at the Creole Cigar Factory in downtown Lansing. "If other companies go the same way, smokers will be marginalized to the point they go underground."

Strict anti-smoking policies have been drafted elsewhere, but Weyco is believed to be among the first companies in mid-Michigan to institute such a rule, local experts say. CNN, the cable news network, is among employers that have implemented a similar smoking ban from the workplace to the home.

Indeed, there's no law to prevent Weyco from taking such action, said David Houston, an attorney with law firm Dickinson Wright who helped write Weyco's policy.

"This is the U.S. of A., and you, or an employer, can do whatever you want to do as long as it is not prohibited," he said. "There is no constitutionally protected right to smoke."

Under the policy, employees can be tested to determine if they smoke. The test is sensitive enough to distinguish people exposed to secondhand smoke from those who are smokers. Those who fail the test will be fired.

Weyers says the reason for the policy is his concern about health care costs associated with smoking. Studies show smokers are more prone to lung problems, including emphysema and cancer.

Said Weyers: "I don't want to pay for the results of smoking."

In keeping with his mission, Weyers has helped employees quit smoking by paying for cessation methods. He's also paid an acupuncturist to treat employees who thought acupuncture might help them quit.

The policy hasn't been popular with everyone. One employee already has quit, and Weyers said more are likely to either quit or be fired.

"I'm not worried about that," he said.

Weyco isn't the only company smokers need to worry about these days.

A growing number of employers are prohibiting smoking, said John Banzhaf, executive director of Action on Smoking and Health, an anti-smoking group with 100,000 members nationwide.

"Smoking adds to the cost of health and disability insurance, and that expense is ultimately borne by the employer and fellow employees," he said.

ASH has helped several employers in court when the policies have been challenged, Banzhaf added. The employers have won every time.

Still, those who disagree with the policy contend it goes too far.

"Where does that kind of thinking stop? Do you not hire employees who smoke or drink or are overweight?" wondered Marshall Kirk, co-owner of the Creole Cigar Factory in downtown Lansing. The American Civil Liberties Union "is going to have a field day with this."

The ACLU of Michigan agrees the policy might be challenged.

"Tobacco is a medical addiction, and there is some question of whether that could fall under the" Americans With Disabilities Act, spokeswoman Wendy Wagenheim said.

"Companies that do something like this are ripe for the picking."

Others oppose such policies because they give employers too much control.

"This is an indicator of how far corporate culture has invaded personal life. It's disconcerting to me that any business would worry about what someone does on their own time in their own home," said Todd Heywood, a former Lansing Community College trustee.

Heywood helped draft a policy when LCC went smoke-free last year. He agreed with making workplaces smoke-free, but drew the line at after-hours smoking.

"A company does not own you when they pay you," he said.



That last statement is my opinion as well. I will do anything legal I wish in my personal life if I want to, and fuck any employer who thinks they can do this. BTW I'm a non-smoker 13 years now, but I haven't forgotten my days of carton-a-week smoking. Until it's illegal like pot and narcs I support anyone's right to smoke in their own personal space or in an open air outside public place.

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I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

DJ Happy

Could Philip Morris include a clause in their employment contracts saying that failure to smoke will result in dismissal? As ridiculous as it may seem, it would appear that current legislation would support them if they did.

I work for an advertising agency and while we are not threatened with dismissal, we are fined if we are caught consuming a brand that is in competition with a client of ours. So I am not allowed to eat Burger King (we work with McDonalds), I am forbidden to drink Pepsi (Coke is one of our clients) and so on. The only exception is cars, as it would be ridiculous to make everyone get new cars to match our client list. After all, how can we be expected to persuade others to use these brands if we don't use them ourselves?

So I can sort of understand the restrictions discussed on this thread, but only if there is a legitimate reason for imposing them. For instance, will the company actually save money in its employee medical insurance if they can assure the insurers that none of its employees smoke? And (considering that the cost of medical insurance was the only reason cited for prohibiting smoking) can the employees smoke if they take out their own medical insurance and are not covered by the company?

Athletes are often prohibited in their contracts from participating in certain activities such as skiing and skydiving. Their employers invest a lot of money in them and don't want to see that investment wasted through something completely out of their control. For instance, Chicago Bulls point guard Jay Williams was prohibited from riding a motorbike by the terms in his contract as it was deemed a dangerous activity. Regardless, Jay Williams bought a motorbike, rode it and had a serious accident on it which has pretty much led to his retirement before he ever played a professional game, meaning that the Bulls wasted a draft pick and millions of dollars in salary on someone who will never play for them. Or rather, it would've meant that had they not included the clause in his contract.

Surely its the same for other companies? Why invest in someone who is smokes, meaning that he is more likely than others to run up huge medical bills that will result in bigger insurance premiums and could also make him unable to work? If you want to argue that targeting smokers while ignoring people who are overweight is inconsistent, I would probably agree with you. But then, maybe we should consider ourselves lucky that smoking is the only activity prohibited (by some) when there are so many other dangerous activities that they could include as well.