Holo

Microsoft isn't the issue really. it's just fitting that they're the ones doing it. Plus all those posters above didn't seem to think it was pointless.

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I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

World's King

Making a satement that the "pin-wheel" thing doesn't belong to Hitler is all well and good. But in the USA... and I'm assuming you are in the USA... We don't like anything that reminds us of tragic events. Such as the WWII or 9/11. You understand? It woudl be like Microsoft having a font that involved towers and airplanes. That's gonna piss some people off. You understand? Yes, I know that the swastika wasn't a Nazi thing to begain with... we all know that. But neither were planes. Now, we look at those as a threat to society. Shit changes. So, make your statement but you have to understand no one will allow that symble in American culture because of the history it has.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

Holo

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I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

World's King

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

analog

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I don't think it should be removed, but that doesn't mean we should blankly assume everyone else should "just deal".

Bigger man than I. I used to yell and then get in trouble, but I'm a bit better now.

eotlemac

OMG.......are you serious king?????

That is terrible...........you should get your ears checked.

lol

tricks

If it had never been put in the font set, no one would have ever noticed.

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People Are Stupid. People can be made to believe any lie, either
because they want it to be true or because they fear that it is.

ChrisJericho

Yes I know that the swastika is an ancient symbl with different meanings. I personally don't give a rat's ass if Microsoft removes it or not because I myself will NEVER use one.

Holo I think you would have a different attitude if you were in those camps.
I think you would have a diferent attitude if your family was stripped naked then gassed to death. MILLIONS of men, women, and children were murdered simply because of their ethnicity, and this symbol played a large part in it.

The fact of the matter is the swastika means something different now. I am not Jewish, but after visiting the National Holocaust museum I'll be damned if I EVER draw or use a swastika.

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"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Holo

Fair Enough. Just don't remove other's freedoms to use one.


So this maligned symbol marched all those people to their deaths by itself? No one here was in those camps so none of us can really claim being personally traumatized by the symbol. You may have a reaction due to ancestors who died under this Nazi-stolen symbol but unless you were beat down by neo-Nazis with the swastika in view you can't really claim personal trauma. And I stand by my point; this symbol was only used by the Nazi Party for like 20 years or so. The symbol is at least a couple thousand years old. It is still used to this day in the far east as a positive symbol. At least one Jew realizes this(link NSFW). Check out those pics. The Buddha is shown wearing a swastika in it's original position. Why must we attempt to bury a symbol with a rich history because of a brief affiliation with a crazed madman who decided to use it.

It doesn't have to.

That is your decision. But given the facts presented in this thread do not judge me for my usage of it. And don't hate the symbol for being hijacked. This topic reminds me of blaming a rape victim for being raped, which is basically what everyone does when they condemn the swastika because of it's Nazi "affiliation".


Some good swastika links:

http://www.intelinet.org/swastika/swastika_intro.htm


http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html


http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/swastika.html

http://history1900s.about.com/librar.../aa120699a.htm

*edited to fix quotes*

__________________
I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

shakran

Listen. The swastika was NEVER a symbol of evil until Hitler came along and took it for his own use. The cross is now a symbol of evil if you allow the KKK's use of it to influence your thinking. If we insist on allowing Hitler's use of the swastika to forever influence our perception of it, then Hitler has won. I, for one, think Hitler should not be allowed to hold so much sway over us.

Hanxter

i look on the back of my cd and hard drives and see two slots on each... "MASTER" and "SLAVE"

i go to the hardware store and need a new dryer socket... the clerk asks what type of "MALE" plug do i have to suit the new "FEMALE" socket

my 4 year old nephew asks his mother why there's napkins in the bathroom... being told they're for special occasions my nephew sets the table with them for Thanksgiving dinner...

and...

it wasn't Saddam they caught the other day... it was Nick Nolte, hired to be another Hussein double

Lasereth

You seem to be forgetting a main issue in this argument: it's NOT "removing your freedom to use it" OR causing "widespread censorship."

Microsoft has made the patch AVAILABLE to those who want it, but they are NOT forcing it on those who aren't offended by it. If it doesn't offend you, don't download it. Problem solved. Like I said earlier, Microsoft making an optional patch to remove the Swastika is simply good customer support and marketing. Can you imagine what would happen if they didn't? I can see it now..."Microsoft started the Holocaust."

They are offering the tools to remove it. REMOVE IT if you want to, leave it if it doesn't offend you. Argument over.

-Lasereth

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Holo

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I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

krwlz

The whole argument was not for or againt what microsoft its self was doing.

The point was that the swastica is generaly censored, and that censorship is wrong.

King: You seemed to have missed that point, and more then likely, its a good thing you have backed away from the thread. Reasonable and open minds make the best discussions... If your is not open, then I dont know that to tell you.

bermuDa

it's only pointless if you have no opinion on the power of symbolism.

I agree with Holo, trying to hide the symbol isn't going to make it go away, and some asshole who bastardized the symbol for less than a decade doesn't negate the thousands of years of religious meaning behind it.

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I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

cowudders14

I can quite beleive that the symbol will dissapar int he next issue of windows. They can't really get rid of it in a service pack - AFAIK fonts are not part of a service pack update, nor can they be. (I'm prepared to be corrected on that one). However, come the next major release of office, it will probably vanish. Problems will then come for anyone who has used it in something, quite possibly as an easy way to get the swastika to appear in an informative piece about the holocaust or something. It will then dissapear, to be replaced with...?

From that perspective alone, I don't think the font should change, but I do feel their patch should remain for those who don't want it.

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Moo! I'm mooey!

Lasereth

Yeah, but you still don't have an argument unless Microsoft announces that it will be taken out. Making assumptions like that are sometimes correct, and that's fine, but basing an entire argument on something that you have no proof of isn't the way to victory. If they do take it out, then I'll definitely have a different opinion on the matter. But right now, they simply haven't suggested, implied, or said that it's going to be removed after the next SP or Office comes out.

-Lasereth

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

louiedog

I totally agree with the original post and most of the posts supporting it. I would like to disagree that our freedom to use it is being taken away. Microsoft can include whatever fonts they want. They shouldn't have to include a character just because people want it. Of course it doesnt seem right to get rid of a character that has important positive meaning to a lot of people either, but we can always download our own fonts.

That said, it's unfortunate what Hitler's use of the symbol did to its meaning in our culture. My girlfriend has a beautiful necklace she bought in India but has to wear the pendant backards for fear that someone will go after her for wearing a swastika. It's also sad that Jewish groups in her home city of Atlanta complained to Indian temples and tried to make them take down their swastikas. I'd like to see how they would react to having the star of david removed from theirs.

ChrisJericho

No, but the people wearing the swastikas were the ones starving people to death and gassing them.

I never claimed I was personally traumatized by the camps. However I do posses a something called empathy. This means that I can imagine what another person's emotions may be in certain circumstances. Of course I could never comprehend the terrors of what happened in those camps. However I can partially imagine what it would feel like having to leave your home, having your family split up, starve in a concentration camp, then come home and hear that your family has been executed. All this was done by people wearing swastikas. Guess what? After an experience like that I would would despise swastikas.

You're absolutely right. The fact is that the people wearing the swastika murdered about 6 million Jews.

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"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

orphen

I would have to agree with holo. the issue really isn't the symbol but how people use them.

punx1325

It honestly isn't that big of a deal, the patch is there for those who are offended by the symbol. Just remember that other people weren't blessed with perfect childhoods, and stories like the holocaust might run in their family. Microsoft is doing the politcally correct thing. It is as simple as this, if the symbol doesn't bother you then don't install the patch.

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If something seems too good to be true, then it probably is....

Pragma

punx1325: If only it was as simple as that, but as someone else mentioned, the next service pack or release of Office will more than likely also have the swastika removed from it - and then you won't have a choice of "just don't install it" - it'll be gone.

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Eat antimatter, Posleen-boy!

Lasereth

Like I said earlier, it doesn't matter if it's "more than likely." There is no evidence to prove this as of now, and Microsoft hasn't suggested or even implied that they are going to remove it from all versions. Download it if you want, don't download it if you like swastikas.

-Lasereth

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

krwlz

It wasnt THE people wearing THE swatica. It was people wearing a swastica. There is a differance.

Not everyone wearing a swastica, wants to go out and kill jews.

ChrisJericho

Incorrect.

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"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Sparhawk

For me, it's all about context. Holo's avatar, with the white swastika on blue background, I don't have a problem with. What I do have a problem with is this:

<img src="http://solo23.abac.com/davidcornell/CJam/swastika.jpg">

I also don't have a problem with southern or state pride, but I have a problem with this:

<img src="http://www.freedomforum.org/graphics/2000/06/illos/confederate.flag.flying.jpg">

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Holo

I'm no born and raised southerner but I've talked at length to a few and they informed me this flag is the Confederate Battle Flag, and it represents to them to the spirit of southern freedom. Make what you will of that. There were actually 5 flags in the Confederacy IIRC, and this was just the battle flag. I think ppl who want to have it on their truck or whatever is fine. Again, it means something else to them today. I think those that are racist would be so with or without this flag in their truck or flying in their yard.

Again, it's all in intent. I changed my avatar to make it more classic to better demonstrate my intent better. Until you go up to one of those southerners and ask them what the rebel flag means to them you can't assume they want to chain up black people and work them as slaves. I'm sure many who sport this flag do feel this way, but I have met people who do not, and proudly display this flag.

__________________
I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

Sparhawk

I know all about it being used as a battle flag during the Civil War. Let me say again, I think state pride and southern (or regional) pride is a good thing, but carrying a symbol used by traitors is another. I won't say anything more on the subject since I don't want to threadjack anymore than I already have...

edit: Reviewing my reasoning shows me to be pretty inconsistent on my views on the two symbols. So sue me, I'm human

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."