Holo

I hope this hasn't been done



I'm fucking pissed.


Microsoft said Friday that the latest version of its Office software inadvertently contained a font featuring two swastikas, and said it would offer tools to remove and replace the offending characters from the program.

The swastika, which was made infamous by Nazi Germany, was included in Microsoft's "Bookshelf Symbol 7" font. That font was derived from a Japanese font set, said Microsoft Office product manager Simon Marks.

"It was discovered by one of our customers a couple weeks ago," Marks said, adding that there was "no indication of malicious intent."

The Redmond, Wash.-based software maker said that it had contacted various Jewish organizations about the font and said a utility would be immediately available on its Web site that would remove the characters from the system.


Most of us are aware of the swastika as an ancient symbol that is still widely used in Asian countries, but since it was used for a few years by Hitler it's going to be censored in the latest font pack.

What I don't get is why the hell we have to censor something that only piss off one group of ppl that will have legitimate value to another group. If you don't ike it don't use the damn font or at the very least don't use the swastika in the font.

Linkay:
http://www.ntfs.org/comments.php?id=...fonts%2012--14


Most societies have had a version of the swastika.







Please don't move to Computers. I think it's more of a censorship issue than a technical one, and I'd like the whole board to be able to participate

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I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

essendoubleop

I know it's very prominent in Southwest Native tribes and symbolizes the circle of life.

Dragonlich

I guess it has something to do with that whole Holocaust thing.

I dunno, but losing most of my Jewish family to the nazis somehow makes me see things differently from you on this issue.

It's not "just a symbol"; to the survivors, it's a reminder of the horrors of the death camps, and to their relatives, it's a reminder of, well, nobody really, since they have nobody left to be reminded of.

I'm not saying Microsoft should ban it (or not), I'm just saying it goes a bit deeper than you might suspect.

Shokan

The Celt one is goddamn hilarious.

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Legalize it.

Holo

I'm not trivializing that issue. I understand the reversed swastika as used by the Nazis is a symbol that is hard to look at for all people that lost ancestors to the Holocaust. Thing is Hitler only used the swastika for a very brief time period in it's total existence, and I disagree with the removal of it. Just let it sit there and don't use it.

Not to mention it's not even a majorly used font set. I just don't see why it must be stricken when the swastika has a legacy of better things than Hitler.



Again I'm not trivializing, but I am offended by the Cross, which is widely available thru the Charmap or typing ALT+0134 like so: † Many people are offended by the oppression that the organized christian religion has wrought upon the world; Yet the cross remains available. If a religious group requests the removal of the swastika I think the cross should be stricken unless it's needed by coders and available by special download. You see what I'm gettting at?

*edited to fix quotes*

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I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

Sapper

It is amazing how sensitive people are to a symbol which was stolen from religion. Shows how utterly powerful symbols really are ..

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rm -f /bin/laden

krwlz

I gotta agree with Holo whole heartedly on this one.

analog

The only thing I will bring to the table is this:

The middle finger, here in America and indeed in some other places in the world, is a symbol of "fuck you". Just because it doesn't mean "fuck you" in your culture/country/religion, doesn't mean you shouldn't be sensitive to the fact that it DOES mean "fuck you" to others. That means, if you walk around with your middle finger up, in front of people who recognize it differently than you do, you should respect the fact that the difference in opinion exists.

I hope that made sense.

And Holo, I completely understand what you're trying to say, and I respect your conviction to say it.

Oh, and the reason the † is still in the main character set is because it's used in annotation, and legal stipulation, much like an *asterisk, such as: †My penis is four feet long.



Bottom of page:
†That's a lie. It's only 3 feet long.

krwlz

Analog, you make a valid point. However, if we try to please everyone, no one will be happy.

Such is life. My opinion... Use the swastica for its intended purpose. If other people complain... well, its really not your problem is it?

Same goes for the cross.

As far as commercial uses however (fonts) I say we have two choices.

First: Remove every symbol that may cause the least little bit of uncomfort, or offense to someone. You will find youself very short on symbols, but it must be done.

Option 2: Leave all the symbols in everything. People that are offended should just grow some thicker skin.


Personaly, I would choose option 2.

analog

I know, that's the real problem with this. I like your option 2.

Mehoni

Wow, some people could never go to a buddhist-country, that is clear.

http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/japanpage/themanji.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Religions

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There seem to be countless rituals and cultural beliefs designed to alleviate their fear of a simple biological truth - all organisms eventually perish.

theguyondacouch

The swastika was originally used by Hitler because it was a sign of good luck. I am not in the least bit offended by it. Unless, that is if it has abvious natzi undertones.

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krwlz

I always liked the swastica... Especialy the neat little rows of em on American WW2 war-birds... (airplanes).

Sorry... tasteless joke I just felt the need to post.

Stare At The Sun

Flesh

for anyone interested, it's the ~ key

lordjeebus

I agree with Holo also.

I think the biggest "fuck you" we could send to Hitler would be to reclaim the symbol for its original meanings -- life, the sun, etc.

If we censor symbols every time they become controversial we will eventually run out of the simple ones.

I recognize, of course, the importance of making sure that its use is not misunderstood as a hateful one. As for those that would use it for hateful purposes, the problem is their hate, not the symbol.

Cycler

It is a differing idealized symbol. For some a reminder of atrocities for others luck life happiness. Unfortunately the corruption of a symbol by a few ruins it for everyone. While I don't like the symbol I understand it means different things to different people. It comes down to a respect issue. Some people are going to feel strongly enough to install the software patch others are not, choice, it all comes down to choice. At least repect is being paid enought to people to offer the choice as to whether to change it or not.

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"I assure you we're open."

hobo

I have no problem with it, but then again I'm not Jewish. I just don't think that other symbols resembling swastikas should be censored because they do not carry the same meaning. I think I saw on TV once a documentary about a guy who decorated his entire house with variations of swastika-like symbols and got a lot of crap for it.

Mantus

I fear what we made of it.

The taboo surrounding the swastika has kept its purpose and meaning alive. One cannot slay the demon by keeping it in a cage and throwing the key away. One kills with knowledge and faith.

guthmund

I am all for tolerance. Never let it be said that I am intolerant. However, removing a symbol that's offensive to one particular culture and located in an obscure font pack is bending over backwards to be stupid.

It's a symbol. It only wields power if you acknowledge it. If you can't simply ignore it then *gasp of all gasps* just choose not to use it.

It's not like they put it prominently on a friggin' package of their software. It's buried back in a seldom used font pack that most folks wouldn't have even found if someone hadn't pointed it out to them.

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macro

I think it should be left in the software. Use of nazi symbology sickens me to the core, and I am entirely sypathetic to why people may wish it to be removed. However, it is a symbol that may and does have legitimate uses. It isn't the symbol itself that is offensive, it is the intent.

Reese

I have to disagree with you here analog. I will always have a middle finger, I shouldn't cut it off because It CAN be used to tell someone "fuck you." Even if people can use the font as a "fuck you," that doesn't mean it should be removed.

Jesus Pimp

Wow I'm surprised no one has complained to Adobe about the cannabis paint brush they have in Photoshop.

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Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

Cardinal Syn

Symbolism is very powerful. Church told everyone the 5 pointed star was bad :<

The cross never meant christian untill they took it.

Just like the nazi's took the swastika.

My opinion is "and we all know what opinions are like" , Remove the symbol , unfortunate that hitler made it a horrible symbol now.

I say remove the cross to. Cause it was used for torture. :< Damn those romans!

Ah well. What can we do?

raeanna74

Well I think Microsoft has handled it fine to this point. Right now if you have the particular software with the offensive font you can -A. download the fix and remove the font from your system or you can - B. Forget about it and use it or not use it as you would have before.

Those it offends don't have to have it around and those whom it doesn't bother don't have to worry about it.

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My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Spyder_Venom

I have to agree with Holo on this one. As it was said, these came from religon and 1 symbol was used aginst another. That was over 50 years ago - people still use the symbol so why the hell can't I have the damn font if I want it!

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CSflim

You know, one of these days, I'm going to start up a crazy cult, and we'll go out and murder millions of people. I'm going to use the ? symbol as our logo.
That'll really screw over the typography business.



Christ! Couldn't people find something more constructive to do than cause a big fuss over a font?

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cowudders14

For once I'm supportive of Microsoft (I surprise myself!)
They responded to a criticism by allowing those whom it offended to remove it. Seems about the most sensible option to me! Bypasses all the issues of is it right or isn't it - those who want it can have it. Those who want it removed can do!

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shakran

Oh. Ok. So if Sadaam had used the American Flag as a symbol of his dictatorship, does that mean the USA should give the flag up because it's been used by a bad guy? I don't think so.

BTW, the cross has been used by the KKK since they were founded. I guess the christians had better find a new symbol before they upset people, eh?

Holo

True. However I would be willing to bet the swastikas "disappear" in Office sp1 or the next version so you' d have to save the font set if you wanted to use it in the future. I just think it should remain. If it's not needed, great! But at least make it available in a widely distributed font pack for webmasters or users who may have use of the symbol. To kowtow to the fear of backlash from one group of people to deprive all others is wrong IMO.


It was derived from a Japanese font pack; do we go after the Japanese for it? Are they Nazis now? No, the symbol has a heritage lasting long before The Nazi Party, and I would hate to see a once positive and decorative symbol be removed from use in society just because of it's more recent affiliations.

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I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

WhoaitsZ

i would be very offended to see a swastika on clothes or what not if nobody like Holo told me there are quite a few variations.

see, i had no idea. now I've learned that it was a tool strongly misused by an evil man.

now i can tolerate it without hostility or a grudge.

as a writer i am confused. um. what if i did a story about crime and i wanted to show a swastika? 'oh gee golly it offended someone so fuck me!'
?

censorship is lame. it just..... it shouldn't exist. if you're that sensitive you better grow up... us of the real world will push you down fast..

krwlz

Z, Im glad you learned something new, and I agree about the censorship.

Now, no offense to you, but its a shame that most of America (and the rest of the world as well probably) remains so oblivious to these things.

Thats where the real problem in these issues starts. With the general public being completly uneducated in many matters.

moonstrucksoul

hmm this is getting a bigger response in General Discussion than it did in Tilted Computershttp://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=38926

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j8ear

It is the most offensive of speech which needs the heaviest of protection from censorship.

edit: took out my trolling commentary

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Lasereth

I agree. How can anyone say Microsoft is being dumb for allowing the censhorship of it? Note that I said allowed, not forced. If you want it gone, you can have it removed. If you don't care, you don't have to have it removed. If a customer wants a product to change, then Microsoft supplying the change is simply good marketing and customer service.

It would be different if Microsoft were forcing everyone to get rid of it -- but they're not. If it offends you, and I can see how it would some (holocaust survivors?), then download the removal. If it doesn't bother you, then don't. What's the big deal?

-Lasereth

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theusername

I understand Holo's argument but still disagree with it. My grandfathers family was slaughtered by that flag and symbol. Besides its "real before Hitler" meaning, to me it will always mean the holocaust and slaughtering of innocent people. You want to leave it there fine your option. That symbol inspires hate in me no matter what intended meaning you have for it.

Pragma

theusername: Your grandfather's family was slaughtered by a deranged madman and a brainwashed populace who corrupted an ancient symbol to use as their logo. The logo itself did nothing.

The fact that the Swastika was used by the Nazis should not forever taint the Swastika itself, such that people are scared of drawing it, looking at it, etc. As someone said above: What if the next genocidal conquering army takes the "?" symbol as their logo and slaughters massive amounts of people? The question mark won't be removed from the language, because people understand that it existed before that usage.

Edited to add: In case the above came off wrong, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was belittling the horror done to your grandfather's family, just pointing out the fact that it was people, not a symbol, that did the harm.

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mingusfingers

Haha, I like the celt one too. I also heard that Coke had it on their bottles for a while before The Nazi party.

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Still Looking

Holo

This is what bothers me the most; It's not so much this particular incident, it's what this will inspire the censorship of in the future. Imagine the next version of Office making the word nigger a misspelled word in spellcheck due to it's racist connotations. I know that's a stretch but I think this is an unecessary stretch so it's not too farfetched. I shudder to think our race (the human one) is so stupid that we have to have decisions like this made for us. I mean yeah we all meet stupid people but this is scary. The symbol has value in it's original context, and I don't like it being censored from widespread use in office software due to something that briefly happened 50 years ago, no matter how horrible it was. We don't clamor for the removal of the word gay from our language since it's meaning was drastically changed from it's original definition. People need to look at things with their minds and not a knee-jerk uneducated reaction.


Education is the cure for all ignorance, and this was the spirit of this thread. Ignorance isn't bad when it's honest. We all can't know everything and it's easy to accept a digested version of things that aren't terribly important to us or just know mothing about a subject. It's poisonous when we struggle to remain ignorant and intolerant. Intolerance works both ways. This symbol is going to continue to be maligned unless someone keeps it alive.

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I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

World's King

Hey... I wanna start a pointles argument about something that Microsoft is doing.


I heard that Bill Gates eats German babies for lunch every Thursday.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown