JadziaDax

Why bother having rules if no one is going to follow them? Not only on TFP, but in life, in general.

Here, on TFP, there are rules like "No links in the Humor board", and "No pictures of ANYONE under the age of 18". People either find it so difficult to follow those rules or don't bother to read them and then plead ignorance. (And don't get me started on the rule about flaming...)

In school, students are given the rules of a class and of the school on their very first day. I know that I go over the rules with my students so they understand them. But you will still hear a cell phone go off in the middle of class, or they'll wear their hats in the classroom.

The teachers are no better sometimes. They are told to make sure the students put their walkmans and cd players in their lockers (they are not allowed to use them during classes). But I see students every day wearing their headphones and I can hear the music from over 20 feet away (no wonder they can't hear me talk to them).

The rules of the road in most states (in the US) say "Keep Right Except To Pass", yet you find "Left-Lane Dicks" (also known as "Discourteous Richards") everywhere you go.

At the supermarket, there is an "Express Lane" that is 8 items or less. People with an entire cart filled to the top try to use those lanes all the time.

Why can't people follow these simple rules? What is so difficult about reading the rules first so that you understand them? What rules have you seen broken? And what do you suggest as a solution to the problem? (And again, this is not just here on TFP, think of real world situations as well).

Batman976

I have no problem following rules so long as I understand why there were made. If I don't agree with rules I don't follow them. I don't think "because that's the rule" or "because I said so" as valid arguments for the placement of a rule.

I don't have problems with most of the rules on this board. I don't quite understand the "No pictures of ANYONE under the age of 18" rule, but it doesn't affect my posts anyway, so I haven't had a problem with it.

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Mr. Spacemonkey

Well, I don't really have a problem with following rules. If there is a rule that I don't like or that I don't really understand i'll still usually follow it just because i don't want to have to deal with the consequences unless of course the consequence for it really isn't that big of a deal. As far as school goes, I think most students break rules either because they know their teacher is really lenient on that particular rule or they are just being an ass.

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spived2

It's basically because all people only consider what's best for themselves. That's our nature. The only difference between people is that some have consciences and realize that breaking the rules can hurt others while most disregard the rules when it benefits them the most. After watching people all these years, I have come to the conclusion that most people are dicks and don't give a shit about respecting others, unless it will get them in any kind of trouble.

It sucks but it's something that will never change short of some kind of brain implant.

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"This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is it vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished, as the once vital voice of the verisimilitude now venerates what they once vilified. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose vis-à-vis an introduction, and so it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V." - V

Johnny Rotten

When the immediate repercussions are a slap on the wrist at best, or someone flipping you the bird, the rule will simply not be followed. People are not naturally obedient and respectful, unfortunately.

Also, obedience tends to be transparent. Meaning, you don't notice when someone obeys the rules nearly as much as you do when someone breaks them. A lot of good things a transparent, really. That's where we get the phrase "You don't know what you got 'till it's gone," I guess.

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phukraut

also, we're all human, and we make mistakes and are not totally rational. sometimes we forget rules or forget to read the rules. some people defy rules intentionally. most don't.

as for a solution, i don't have one, though i believe a zero-tolerance policy probably is a bad idea.

lurkette

I think the vast majority of rule-breaking is either due to ignorance (i.e., someone doesn't read the Charter) or to the fact that someone doesn't think the rules should apply to them, which is annoying. Sometimes if I don't understand the purpose of the rule I'll question it or obey it grudgingly, but generally rules are there for a purpose (like don't touch this machinery or it'll rip your arms off). I remember in college, though, thinking that certain rules were idiotic - no men on floor after 11, no drinking, etc. - and I disobeyed them gleefully, even though I had signed on to this college knowing what its rules were. I think now that I probably should have just gone to a different college, but a certain amount of challenging of outdated or pointless rules is good for the evolution of society.

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The_Dude

There are a lot of people that actually follow the rules (I try my best to). So the rules apply to those of us that actually follow 'em.

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gabshu

There need to be rules or our society would collapse. You can't expect people just to be good by nature, so we make laws. Laws are supposed to reflect morality, such as don't kill, don't steal, etc. I think the real question is when one should stop obeying the rules, terrible things like the holocaust happened because of people just following rules.

There is no all just all knowing human that can make just laws that everyone will agree with, so I think we have to do our best to follow rules we believe are right and to protest against those that we believe are wrong.

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ratbastid

I think it's the natural relationship we Human Critters have with rules. We think that the purpose of rules is to restrict our freedom, and we automatically resist that. That resistance takes a lot of forms--most of it fairly passive-aggressive. It looks like not listening or forgetting or not caring... Stuff like you see in your average high school every day.

I think there are two ways to ensure compliance with rules. One is to be dead certain that the reason and purpose of the rules is communicated with crystal clarity up front, and that people buy in that the rule has value and should be followed. The other is to make the consequences of rulebreaking be swift, systematic, and harsh. Most businesses try the former. The military does the latter. Most schools (again, in my experience) do neither.

titsmurf

People break the rules if they think the rules are stupid. I know I've done it. The problem here is that what one person thinks is a stupid rule, the other person thinks is a really important one.

Still, I'd rather have things this way, and have the occasional friction as a result, than to live in a police state where you have no freedom at all.

IC3

This is one of those things that is always going to happen...I especially despise drivers that insist driving in the passing lane on the highways doing 100km/h...If your one of them, Your not suppose to drive in that lane unless you are passing. Why do some people find this so hard to understand.

This does not make me get full of rage and give them the finger as I drive by them....I find it amusing when people get all pissed off while driving, I have had the finger waved at me a few times...I just smile and wave.

I probably break some kind of rule on a daily basis..But if it doesn't effect anybody but myself...Then why care. I would never do something that would effect somebody else....Not intentionally anyways.

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rainheart

A lot of times rules are just made without our interests at heart (like taxation on things passed down to us through a will.. what kind of shit is that), and are more or less for the benefit of someone else-- of course that isn't exactly what goes on with the rules of the TFP (subject to debate) but you definately can't expect people to blindly follow rules, they have to have good reason to do so, and you have to realize we are plagued by pseudo-intellectualism and false reasoning every day, so we might end up following rules for what only seem to be good reasons. We might end up breaking the rules for what seem to be good reasons just as equally.

Sometimes, rules that nobody follow are just there so that someone has some reason to persecute (prosecute?) someone else.

Imagine I tell you that you can't eat toast bread anymore because.. say.. burnt toast increases your risk of cancer due to carcenogenic content (or make your own rule here that isn't this ridiculous), and everybody eats toast anyway, and this I've only made up this rule so that I have something to hold against you if you do something I don't like.
So ishn't dat veird?

TIO

Zero tolerance works. I have rules at my place, stuff like "thou shalt not wear a hat inside" and "thou shalt not bitch about the brand of the free beer." They are all reasonable, and I obey them myself, and if anyone breaks them, they get one warning and then they are cut off.
So I guess there are 2 reasons why my rules are followed. The first is the threat of not getting any more beer. The second, and I think this one is actually more important, is that the people who visit me respect me, and they respect my right to make rules governing certain behaviour in my flat. Any newcomers see that people respect my rules, and they respect them too.

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Strewth

Angel

I am of the same opinion as you JadziaDax.

I simply do not understand why people cannot follow rules, instructions, laws etc. I have no patience for people who push the envelope, especially when I know they are doing it simply to see how far they can go and that they think they are above everybody else.

Grant it, we all make mistakes in life, but to defy the laws of life simply to challenge the world is, in my opinion, disrespectful and shows a lack of dignity.

*struggles to not go off on a big rant here*

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Fire

some rules are nescessary- those that deal with public safety- some are not- if a rule makes sense and can be explained in terms of real world aplication then it is probably a good idea- if not then it may just be a holdover to tradition, or a power trip- I tend to respect rules that make good sense, as they are needed for society- the others are usualy a waste of time, and breaking those rules can help us move foreward as a society, when done in the form of civil disobedience.

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seretogis

A rule is useless -- and even has a negative effect on the seriousness of other rules -- if it is not enforced. For instance, pretty much everyone knows that the Ladies Lounge is off limits to us guys. I will never post there, because I know that the rule is enforced. Make a rule, enforce it, and make an example of those who have broken it, and you will see a lot more people a) realizing that the rule exists, and b) knowing that you're not just joking around by setting rules.

As for your in-the-classroom examples, all are things that I was never allowed to do in High School, and admit that I have done a few times. Why? The rules were rarely enforced. Make sure the rules are clearly stated (a sign on the door?) and then start strictly enforcing them. If they don't follow the rules elsewhere, they will at least learn to start doing so in your classroom.

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JadziaDax

hey seretogis, just for the record, I have absolutely no problems with rules in my classroom. My students (and other people's students) know that if they break one of my rules, they are out on their ass.

But it's interesting that some of you adults will sit here and say that you are all for breaking a rule if you don't believe in it. So, let me add this question into the mix...

If you are one of those who is all for breaking a rule because it doesn't fit you, are you willing to accept the consequences or punishment for breaking the rule?

sbscout

My class rules/guidelines are posted on either side of the front chalkboard. They see me framed by the rules every time they look to the front (also a rule!). Break one - you suffer the consequences. Those who claimed ignorance the first time have not forgotten the rules since.

Am I being too hard on my students? No; they know the limits in my classroom and rarely cross the line.

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peacy

I'm braking at least one rule every day: speeding on the motorway. And I'm willing to take responsibiliy for my actions.
I know that I made the decision that the 70mph limit is a joke. Everybody does 80+. (I'm not using this as an excuse...) Even the cops won't stop you if you do sub-90.
And I just got a ticket 2 weeks ago. I remembered the camera flashing and I didn't try anything not to pay the fine. (It was 60GBP + 3 points...)

My motto is: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime...

SiN

1. i dunno. i've never understood 'why' either.
i've always been a rule follower/enforcer most always.
(any exceptions are either accidental or puropseful and thought-out - and yes if i choose to break a rule, i realise/accept the risks involved).
to me, it is just the way to do things. it's so easy, it just baffles me that so many people can't do something so simple.

2. nothing difficult. but perhaps the problem is that some people fail to realise that there ARE rules out there that they need to watch out for. i think it's a simple lack of observation. some people are horribly unobservant.

3. dunno, i dont keep track.

4. solution? observation and consideration and responsibility, preferably learned at a young age, but definitely possible for one of any age to improve on.

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gabshu

I think only really brave people will break a rule because they think its wrong. In the 50s up trough the 80s there were experiments cunducted by Stanley Milgram and others about obedience to authority. They made a person give (fake) shocks to another one until the person who was giving the shocks stopped responding. About 80% of the people followed through to the last schock even though the person was screaming in (fake) pain.

I think this shows a terrible part of humanity. For my part I think I would be in that 80%, and its a terrible realization to come by. Maybe the best thing to do is to stay clear of situations were your integrity or whatever may be tested. who knows.

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Met22

I liken it to the fact that some people think that they are smarter than everyone else and found a way to cheat the system in their tiny little minds. They just don't give a shit for being fair of course when it is them who is getting slighted and they make the largest scene every. I hate they jerks! The guy who cheats the line, the idiot diving down the break down lane, the idiot who takes more than one, the one that acts ignorant to the fact they cut ahead of ten people and they have twelve items and the sign says 10. I'm with you. Why do people have to be jacked! The honor system is a joke in today's society and it brings out the worst in all of us.

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Gortexfogg

As Bob Dylan said, "Man is opposed to fair play, he wants it all and he wants it his way". Humans can be selfish creatures that don't care about others.

I think the solution to this problem lies in the rules and enforcement. The big rules (don't murder, don't kidnap, don't blow up buildings, ect.) are enforced great. But smaller rules (don't jaywalk, don't litter, right of way, ect.) don't get enforced nearly as much, and people know it. I guess law enforcement ro any other authority figures should go out of their way to give harsh warning to breakers of smaller laws, thus enforcing them with out becoming a government who fines or arrests you for every little thing.

TIO

Sure you'll take the ticket. But what about the one day when some guy falls off his bike on the side of the road and you're going just a little bit too fast to stop in time?
I'm not being self-righteous. I'm just saying that there's a reason the rules are in place, and that an 80 pound fine is a punishment for breaking a rule, and making the motorway just a little bit less safe. Too many people see it as a toll for going a bit faster on the way to work each morning.

I don't speed. I can afford the fines and I can afford the demerits, but I don't speed because someone who knows what he is on about has assessed the condition of the road and determined the maximum speed at which it can safely be negotiated. Sure, I'm a better than average driver, so I should be allowed to go a bit over the limit. But I won't do that, because I wouldn't want someone else who thinks he is a better driver than he is speeding and making the road unsafe.

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Strewth

Holo

I have a hard time conforming to any rule that is not explained, e.g. when someone says "you don't need to know why" I instantly lose any respect for the rule. You want rules in life followed make sure ppl understand why it's in place no matter how easy it is for some to understand. If one person asks why then they should be publicly informed as to the why and wherefore of the rule.

Plus ppl make mistakes and forget there are rules in certain situations and places and do something that is a faux pas. If it's a low consequence rule ppl won't pay attention to it like they do with beating someone's ass or murder, since these are serious consequence offenses.

Ppl are rebellious be nature, and don't like being told what to do , especially in absence of information and explanation or respect. If you tell someone "you don't need need to know" you alienate them and create conflict with them resulting in not being interested in respecting the rule since they were disrespected when inquiring about it. Same as being treated rudely in the commission of an error...If you break a rule under the premise of forgetfulness or error and someone busts your dick for it they are likely to disrespect the rule afterwards out of spite. What can you expect from such a flawed species as us?

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filtherton

I think most people have their own set of internal rules that they follow above all else. Murder is illegal and i killing somebody is one of the last things i would ever choose to do, but i know there are certain situations where my sense of self preservation would call for nothing less. I'm not trying to say that speeding on the freeway necessarily carries the same urgency as killing in self defense, just that there are exceptions to every rule. When it comes down to it, any rule is subject to conditional conformity.
I try to follow the golden rule above all. Try being the key word. Any other rule is just a guideline. If the benefits of breaking the rule outweigh the consequences, not just the physical punishment, but also the possible loss of self respect, than i'm a rebel.

peacy

Well, speeding... It's a funny thing.
I believe that the speed limit on the motorway is set to a certain level where all the cars which are passed their MOT (yearly mechanical inspection) could safely travel. Since the range of cars is really wide, the speed is set to relatively low.
I am a responsible driver. I know where is the limit and I'm trying not to dance on the edge. I know that my car is in _really_ good condition and I know what's safe. I don't do stupid things... (Or only when I'm dangerous only to myself...)

This is why I think that 70 mph is stupid:
Speed limits in UK:
built up areas - 30 mph
single carriageway - 60 mph
dual carriageway - 70 mph
motorway - 70 mph

I believe that if you're allowed to do 60 on a single carriageway (which is quite dangerous), than the limit on the motorway should be at least 80 mph. (Which is the standard everywhere else in Europe (except Germany))

BTW, according to statistics the number of accidents on German motorways (where are no speed limits) are much lower than in the US (where as far as I know the max is 65 mph).

Journeyman

For me, it generally has a lot to do with whether rules were told to me or if rules were discussed with me. Rules that are here for my safety, I break them and I'm unsafe, so I play those by ear. Rules that are here for your convenience, I break them and I'm disrespecting you, so I play those by ear. Rules that are here for a general benefit to everyone, I break them and I've devalued my neighbors, so I play those by ear.

Rules applied to the things I am priveledged to and choose to subject myself to, I break them and I am shooting myself in the foot, so I play those by ear. Rules applied to situations I have been forced into, I only worry about getting caught.

hawkeye

(not trying to pick on anyone) "I refuse to follow any rule that I don't understand."
That is BULLSHIT.
you have a six year old kid. you explain to them that they shouldn't let anyone 'touch them there' but you don't explain why. A six year old, not only has no need to know why they shouldn't let that happen, but would have no comprehension even if you tried to explain. yes, when you get older you're more able to understand and reason, but you don't always need to be spoon fed all the answers. Most of the time rules are there because they are things that have been shown to have a net positive effect. We should be able to follow simple rules without explaination.

addressing a different point, I personally think that any cashier in a express lane should be authorized to refuse service to someone over the limit, and explain to them that the store makes enough money that they really don't give a shit about one offended asshole.

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GuttersnipeXL

We live in such a "me first, gimme gimme" society. Everyone needs to be first, ...the lane opens up at the super market, and it's a mad dash to the checker, regardless of the 8 items or less rule. People don't like obstructions, and will break rules to get along on their way. As far as students go, the "Rules are meant to be broken" mindset is there. School is a place to learn how to follow rules, so they are prepared for life outside of the classroom. If they don't follow along, then there are reprecussions. If you didn't learn how to follow the rules in school, and that follows with you throughout your life, you get to potentially pay a fine, or worse go to prison. My solution to the problem lies in the hands of parents. A certain amount of discipline at a young age can go along way. .....

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WhoaitsZ

as a rule I automaticly see how many rules i can break. it's not to be rude...... it's just the way i am.

i do believe strongly in following them, though, if you are a part of something with friends. respect.

some rules are important. some are stupid......

to me it boils down to this. respect. if there is a rule thrown at me for sake of your ego, fuck it.

if it is legit and important, no problem.

i think if someone makes a rule and expect it to be followed then they have considerable work to do to ensure people know it is needed.

for instance, here, if halx makes a rule i dislike, oh darn. but if a mod created a rule out of the blue that fouled me up i would question it. it is halx's place, so i respect his word or i leave. the mods have a tough job but abuse is abuse.


that damn age rule gets me everytime It is like my mind refuses to remember the no pic under 18 law. though i'm getting better.

but it's something i do unintentionally.

Darkeryet

I think the rule for no pic of a child is needed. This is an adult oriented site containing porn. That is the last thing this site needs is pictures of children on it even if they are clothed. I think the fact that there is so much else here to do and read people forget that this is an adult web site.

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Darkeryet

Reese

I don't follow every rule, There are some very absurd rules out there.

Yes, I can face the consequences, and yes, I have challenged rules that I don't think anyone should have to follow, but I wouldn't challenge it if I was the only one gaining anything.

Don't take that the wrong way. I don't go around breaking every little rule that I don't agree with. There are a few rules that I bend though. (ie: going a few miles over the speed limit. which is basically the flow of traffic)

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Cynthetiq

i always am ready for the consequenses of my actions.. rules or no rules...

i've lived in places with stringent rules, Singapore to lax ones NYC... IMHO as long as I'm not infringing on someone else's rights or harming someone else, then the rule is my choice to follow, and I have to live with the consequenses of either getting caught or harmed from not abiding by the rules.

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Kaos

Where I work, I have some signs posted to tell customers the area in the back is for EMPLOYEES ONLY. But every day I am ushering at least 2-3 people out of there. And outside to stop people from coming into the back though that way, I have caution tape around the entrance to the receiving area. And just what the fuck do they do?? I have personally witnessed people stepping over the caution tape to walk back there.

These people just don't pay attention or just don't care. Another customer wandered into our tool room. Usually the door is shut and locked but one of the volunteers was back there working so it was open. I asked him to leave (nicely I might add) and he tells me "Well, you should have a sign posted if you don't want people in there!" Rediculous, his was an honest mistake and I was nice about it, there was no reason for that fucker to get snotty about it.

If I had to post a fucking sign for every little thing that should be pretty obvious to most people, the entire place would be decorated in signs.

quadro2000

A lot of people ignore rules because they figure everyone else is following them - how can it hurt if they bend the rule once in a while? They feel they are the exception to the rule.

As for your students, a lot of them probably feel that the rules are stupid and are there to be broken. That's why you still have cell phones going off. Unless their punishment is severe enough, they're not going to bother paying attention. What happens if they break the rule? Detention? Many kids couldn't care less.

You mentioned the express lane at the supermarket. I try to follow this rule. If I have 12 items and it's 10 items or less, I get into the express lane. If somebody were to call me on it, I would be more than willing to apologize and move to another line. I just wind up thinking, "it's only two items, what's the big deal." The big deal is that it adds up when ALL of us do it, but I still don't really care and feel like I'm exempted, somehow, from the rule. But again, it's not like I bring 50 items into that lane.

On TFP I think a lot of people don't deliberately disobey the rules. I just don't think they bother to pay attention to them in the first place. The first story I posted, I just posted a link without text. I'm sure that was listed in some rule that I just didn't bother to read at some point.

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ARTelevision

It looks to me we have had a culture that glorifies rule-breakers and romanticizes anti-social behavior for decades and perhaps centuries - from the 18th century Romantics to today's hyper-commercialized media-hyped bad boys and girls of popular culture. We have ever more powerful and persuasive technological means of dispersing these archetypes that are destructive of self and society. We have populations ever more susceptible to the alluring impact of these messages.

Since you pretty much have to break social and societal rules to be considered cool, I'm surprised there still remains any civility at all.

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spectre

I tend to speed, a lot. If I get caught speeding, I deserve the ticket. In general though, I tend to follow whatever rules are laid out when I'm in someone else's house. It may be quirky, I may not understand the reason, but it's what the person wants, and if I want to be there, I respect their rules. If I didn't want to be there, I'd just leave.

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No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

Derwood

Easy: Lack of respect for fellow humans.

I live in Chicago, and I witness "no respect" rule breaking all the time. People smoking on the subway platform, passing me on the right on one lane streets, stopping traffic by crossing against the light, etc.

As a professor I don't put up with lateness and the like because I think it's disrespectful to me as a professional.

In general, people these days just don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

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