tj2001cobra

Screw all of you SUV haters, I am keeping my pick-up and soon to be Tahoe. I wonder how all of the "help me protect myself from the world" people will respond when they see that the smaller cars that they drive are PROVEN to be more dangerous.

Link here: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...arweight_x.htm


Study: Lighter cars mean more deaths

By David Kiley, USA TODAY

DETROIT — Reducing the weight of vehicles, mostly to improve fuel economy, has resulted in more traffic deaths, especially in small cars, federal regulators said Tuesday.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said a new study proves what the agency and many others have been saying: Until pickups and sport-utility vehicles are designed to cause less damage to smaller vehicles in crashes, occupants of the gas-guzzling heavier trucks will be safer than those in more fuel-efficient, lighter vehicles.

Fatality rates
Driver fatalities per billion vehicle miles from 1996 to 2000 in 1996 to 1999 models:
Very small cars 11.56
Small cars 7.85
Compact pickups 6.82
Midsize SUVs 6.73
Small SUVs 5.68
Midsize cars 5.26
Large pickups 4.07
Large SUVs 3.79
Large cars 3.30
Minivans 2.76
Source: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration



The study was done as NHTSA prepares to write new fuel economy rules and side-impact crash standards, said agency spokesman Rae Tyson.

While some environmentalists fear automakers will use the study to ward off stricter fuel efficiency standards, Tyson said it should not be interpreted to mean that fuel economy and safety are mutually exclusive. "It is very possible for SUVs and light trucks to go on a diet, without compromising safety."

The new study contradicts one the agency did in 1997, which concluded that vehicle weight reductions didn't increase fatality risk. NHTSA engineers have long doubted that study's methodology and conclusions.

The new study found:

• A weight reduction of 100 pounds in the heaviest trucks and SUVs, those weighing more than 5,000 pounds, could save hundreds of lives a year.

• Weight reductions in trucks and SUVs weighing less than 5,000 pounds and most passenger cars could mean more fatalities for occupants of those vehicles.

• The most fuel efficient and often least expensive cars, the very small ones, have a fatality rate twice that of small and midsize SUVs and four times that of minivans.

• In collisions that involve the heaviest pickups and SUVs, 83% of fatalities are in the lighter vehicles.

The study shows that when trucks weighing 3,870 pounds or more lose 100 pounds of weight, fatalities in those vehicles increase about 3% in rollovers and in collisions with fixed objects. But those deaths are offset by lives saved when the trucks are in collisions with lighter-weight vehicles.

The report confirms what automakers have long known, "that downsizing and down-weighting vehicles has an adverse impact on safety," said Eron Shosteck, Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers spokesman.

But Joan Claybrook, a former NHTSA administrator and executive director of Public Citizen, said: "NHTSA's study is based on a comparison of the safety records of vehicles differing by 100 pounds, ignoring differences in safety design, which other studies have shown to matter more than weight."

krwlz

The problem isnt really with the SUV's themselves, (Personaly I dont see their purpose, but whatever). The problem is that we take an average person, and put them in a vehical thats too tall, with more power than they are capable of handling safely. Hence, rollovers.

bussman

I dont hate suv's either, just the some of the people that drive them. I can't count the number of times I've been run off the road by some woman in an suv.

Darkblack

People in small cars are killed by assholes in SUV's.

yournamehere

Right - at least <b>Darkblack</b> got the gist of the story.
If everyone drove small cars, the safety record would improve drastically. For further explanation, see <i>Newton's Second Law of Motion</i>

However, being human and thus, selfish - I put my wife's and my safety above the safety of all of you out there (nothing personal), so I'll continue to drive our Explorer, thank you very much.

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Lyaec123

I hate it that people even try to argue how these "SUV's" are so much less safe... an explorer or Grand Cherokee or whatever weighs barely any more than a family sized car. And they aren't incredibly powerful or whatever either. The vehicles that do the damage are HEAVY vehicles (1 ton trucks, commercial vehicles etc) I've added 100 lbs of stereo equipment to my 1/2 ton fullsize truck already, does that mean its increasing the danger for everyone else on the road? I think not...

Averett

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TaiModan

ok, following the logic everyone seems to be excersizing, if I were to pile an SUV full of 250lb football players, would that make the SUV more dangerous...? ok bad example

shalafi

i have people in little weenie cars cut me off and/or try to occupy the same piece of road as my truck way more often that the "assholes in suvs"

bullshit ill keep my 3% thank you. those little car hippys can watch where they are going if they want more safety (thats what i have to do when i ride my motorcycle). and just to be on the safe side i think ill weld an extra hundred pounds of steel around the cab just in case.

jbrooks544

There is nothing in those stats that says that the sole causal factor is vehicle weight. If it were the only factor then why are mid sized suv's more deadly than small suv's? One of the main things that cause more deaths in very small cars is that many of them don't have much safety equipment. The low rate of air bags in these cars could probably explain most of the difference. Idiots buying these shit little cars would rather spend on a bitchin' stereo or mag wheels, etc. instead of airbags, etc. /obvious but true.

lurkette

TJ, did you bother to read the article or did you just make a knee-jerk assumption that it supported your existing opinion and reinforced your decision to do exactly what you want?

Saying that downsizing cars is a safety problem is really just a bass-ackward way of saying that UPsizing SUVs and other small trucks is creating a safety problem for the rest of us.

I don't hate SUVs - they have their place just like every other vehicle. They're useful for hauling things, driving in rough weather or off-road. What I object to are the massive numbers of suburbanites who buy them for reasons other than utility (what I like to call the "small penis" syndrome), or who have this "fuck all y'all I'll drive what I want" attitude. The fact is SUVs are not, on the whole, safer than other cars, and even if they were, <a href="http://poseur.4x4.org/reasons2.html#Safe">which they're not</a>, you'd be trading in safety while driving for other downsides such as increased health risks due to air pollution, higher fuel costs due to increased demand, greater dependence on foreign oil.

Thankfully this is America and you have the freedom to choose exactly which handbasket you get to drive to hell in.

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irseg

Umm, ALL cars since at least the early 90's have front airbags. Side airbags are generally an option on small cars and SUVs alike. Nobody said weight was the ONLY factor, but it is among the most significant.

Most modern small cars do quite well in crash tests where they run into a fixed wall (indicating they are well designed and have good safety equipment), but get into a head-on with an SUV that weighs 2000 pounds more and it's an entirely different story. Pretty basic physics.

onetime2

Also an entirely different story from fixed object crash tests to two vehicles (large or small) traveling in opposite directions. A t-boning by a small car can make you just as dead as a t-bone from an SUV. Of course you may look better in the casket if you get hit with a small car but at that point does it really matter?

Junchbailey

Well if this isn't the most obvious statistic ever. A Ford Excursion hits a Honda Civic head on at 60MPH. It isn't the fact that the person was driving a small car that killed them, it's the giant SUV driven by the woman on her cell phone that crashed into him.

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Holo

The problem isn't so much the SUVs themselves, it's the fact they are bought by ppl who can't even park them let alone drive them. SUVs are the modern-day Saabs to many upper middle and higher class economic brackets. Anyone who is capable of driving an SUV and wants to buy one fine. I think it's a waste considering most SUV owners never use the vehicle for any heavy duty stuff(and no your golf clubs are not considered heavy materials). There are plenty of cars in the same price range that are large and able to protect their owners. My other main beef with SUVs is they block your view everywhere. I have a minvan and sit about twice as high as a car and I can't see around them. They create a lot of problems due to their popularity, and with many nimrods driving them the road is a dangerous place to be.

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Conclamo Ludus

We should all just drive SUV's, then we'll all be safe.

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dimbulb

Several good points have been raised. The critique of tj's argument sounds suspiciously like the argument part of the GRE... lol..... you're making a lot of conclusions from very little facts, and only choosing to make the conclusions that support your way of thinking. I suggest that you examine the issue more closely, and not jump to any conclusions.

The solution here is better design of vehicles, and not increasing the weight of the vehicles. In fact, if you read the article closely, you find that that is what the article says.

1) Heavier vehicles are 'safer' for their occupants in collisions, at the expense of the occupants of the other vehicle. From a societal standpoint, I don't see the benefit of having more "safety" in this manner.

2) One of the major safety issues now is the crash incompatibility between light vehicles and heavy vehicles. The bumpers of many SUVs and commercial vehicles are set very high off the road. Thus, when light vehicles like passenger cars collide with trucks, their in-built safety barriers like bumpers, reinforcement bars do not work as planned. Trucks often ride over cars, and their bumpers, in side collision tests, are higher than the side-reinforcement bars in car doors, thus allowing the bumper of the truck to penetrate the passenger cabin, and cause head injuries ( most often fatal... ).

And not to mention that the rail construction of most trucks, results in a VERY rigid frame, that penetrates the cabin of lighter vehicles. Manufacturers, in addition, are stiffening the bodies of trucks, in response to ill-thought out 'safety' regulations. ( Trucks are rated based on collisions with other trucks... so they become safer to their occupants if their bumpers and frame are made stiffer.... of course... the other 70% of vehicles are still cars...

Bill O'Rights

I notice that when I drive my wife's Saturn, I tend to get cut off very frequently. Conversely, when I'm driving my rusted out old '77 Chevy pick-up, people tend to stay away from me. The perception being that I don't give a crap about that truck, and will take the risk of it being hit, rather than be intimidated. Of course, I don't drive it any differently than I do the Saturn. Just an observation.

I also have noticed that a lot of people that drive SUV's, have no idea how 4 wheel drive vehicles operate. They are meant to provide additional traction to gain forward momentum...NOT to help you stop on ice covered roads. 4 wheel drive provides nothing to help you stop. Therefore, you cannot drive 70 mph on icy roads, and expect to fare any better than any 2 wheel drive vehicle sharing the road with you. If more people understood that simple fact, my commute, on cold Winter Nebraka mornings, would sure be a lot easier.

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dimbulb

Also, I feel that we should not jump to conclusions.

People who drive SUVs are not necessarily idiots who are constantly on the cell phones....

Don't get defensive over your SUV. There must be a good reason why you drive a polluting vehicle, that is unsafe to other road users, when you live in an urban area and the SUV has NEVER gone offroad before......

I have no bones with people who use their SUVs and pickups for their intended purpose. Even the soccer mom has some justification for a SUV. (even if i think minivans are a better alternative.... ) For the single passenger SUV in urban areas.... WHY???

Peryn

Weight is an important factor. Inertia, mass, velocity, etc, all factor into who lives and who dies. SUVs (at least the full size land yachts) have that advantage on their side. But its not so much the weight of the vehicle, as it is where the weight is. On an SUV the weight is much higher up than it is on a passenger vehicle. Because of this, the casr struck by the suv is hit in an area not designed to take the full impact. If the front end of a car was designed for the whole hood/fender/bumber to take the impact, and it gets hit only on teh top half, you have significantly increased your odds of a fatality. You are putting more stress on a system that wasn't designed for it.


There is another VERY large class of vehicles that escapes teh big car anger that gets directed at SUVs. Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited, 4wd ... their most loaded and heviest vehicle i believe. 4000lbs. Chrysler Town and Country = 4500 lbs. This is not uncommon. Minivans are terribly heavy vehicles, but nobody gets mad at them for sucking down gas, or for causing fatalities in crashes due to their weight. Again, its not necessarily the weight that kills, but where its at.

Another look at vehicle weights : Ford escape XLT Premium 2wd : 3300 lbs. Audi TT quattro roadster : 3500 lbs. The audi is a reasonably small 2 seater sports car. If it got into an accident and the occupants died, everyone would be angry saying that it was the stupid SUV thats big and heavy killing people again, but the sportscar weighed more.

Look at that same audi vs. a Ford Ranger. the ranger weighs 3100 lbs. Add a few hunder pounds for a lift kit, bigger tires and suspension and have it get into an accident with that roadster. It would probably eat the sportscars occupants alive, yet it weighs the same amount, or less.

It isn't always the weight of teh SUV, but where its at that seems to be the biggest problem as far as safety goes to me...

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irseg

Because that person happens to like SUVs and therefore purchased one. That's all the justification necessary.

By the way, I happen to like blue. Give me a good reason why your house shouldn't be painted that color or else I'm gonna go over there and do it.

World's King

Weapons of Mass Destruction.

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a2k

Know why SUV drivers pay more in car insurance even though their cars are safer for them? It's because an SUV driver is likely to have higher claims against them for accidents that they cause than drivers of normal cars. That means that either SUV drivers are more dangerous, or SUVs are more dangerous. I'd guess that it's both.

I'm a former SUV driver and I've never been happier (and my repair bills have never been smaller).

Midnight_Son

so.....why do you have a car for an avatar?...and not a truck or SUV?

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irseg

Haha, I like that!

I really don't care about the safety of anyone besides myself and the people I care about. If you decide to putt around in a 1500 pound Geo and it implodes when you cut off a Navigator and get creamed (I love how anti-SUV zealots pretend that only SUV drivers are idiots), it's your own damn fault. You risked safety to get gas mileage and cheapness in return; that was your call.

I guess we should ban 18 wheelers too, since they'd take out a big SUV just as easily as a Hyundai.

lurkette

hNobody's talking about banning SUVs. I think what most of us who drive small cars, for whatever reasons, would really like is the following:

1. SUVs redesigned to be less deadly to smaller cars. They could easily have the bumpers lowered below windshield height for other cars. SUVs are not just dangerous to economy cars, but also to mid-sized family sedans and other "non-hippie" vehicles.

2. If SUVs got better gas mileage - which is ENTIRELY within the realm of engineering possibility without sacrificing safetly - more people would probably be willing to drive them. I'd have a hybrid or electric RAV4 in a heartbeat.

3. Those of us who choose more fuel-efficient cars often do so for environmental reasons. We are concerned about the long-term effects of air pollution on EVERYONE and are frustrated at the "memememe" attitude that has made fuel-inefficient and dangerous vehicles best-sellers, and damn the consequences to the rest of you and to future generations. We ban smoking in public places because of the health risks to others, yet we allow pollution-spewing vehicles to damage our air quality in the name of "consumer choice." It seems wrong to me, and in the end the only people it really benefits are the automakers who make HUGE profit margins on SUVs because 1. people are willing to pay for them, and 2. they are still exempt from fuel efficiency standards that apply to all other consumer cars.

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tj2001cobra

I did bother to read the article. Thanks for asking.

I also read you your statement. It is interesting how they dont bother you... You just dont want them around. I also like how you tell me that I am going to go to hell because of my choices. Nice touch. Oh, and I forgot: You are acusing me of having a small penis because of driving an SUV. All very nice arguements. Oh, and who can forget that I tell everyone to "fuck off" because of what I am driving.

Full of assumptions today, aren't we?

You go ahead and drive a small car if you want. I can afford to drive something nicer, and I plan to do it. It is also safer for me, which counts.

Nothing I like better than people who steroetype me for the car I drive. Shall I pick something out about you and do the same?

MSD

From "Ths Simpsons"

Marge: I heard that SUV's are more likely to be involved in fatal accidents.

Bart: Yeah, fatal to the person in the other car.

tj2001cobra

My Cobra is a "play" vehicle. I haven't driven it in about 2-3 weeks. It is a fun car but I dont drive it to work. It is a hobby car. And it is fast. I am sure the tree-huggers would hate it too.

lurkette

I clarified my position above - it's not SUVs that I object to, it's the fact that they are unnecessarily inefficient and unsafe, and generally "more car" than is needed for the purpose they serve: driving single passengers back and forth in a suburban environment. If they were safer (both on their own and to other drivers - the safety of SUVs is actually a myth) and required to abide by the same fuel efficiency standards as other vehicles, I would have much less problem with them.

Quote:

I also like how you tell me that I am going to go to hell because of my choices. Nice touch.

Nonono, I was referring to the figure of speech "we're all going to hell in a handbasket" - used as an expression of dismay when you think destruction is immanent, as I think we are if we don't change our treatment of the environment. I didn't mean you personally were going to hell.

That was uncalled for, I'm sorry.

Quote:

All very nice arguements. Oh, and who can forget that I tell everyone to "fuck off" because of what I am driving.

Actually you told us all "screw all of you SUV haters" not "fuck off." My mistake.

Quote:

You go ahead and drive a small car if you want. I can afford to drive something nicer, and I plan to do it. It is also safer for me, which counts.

See, this is the thing that gets me. You assume bigger=nicer. Or more expensive=nicer. Is it about appearances? Prestige? Status? Why not get a BMW or something instead of an SUV? Same net effect, better for the environment.

Quote:

Nothing I like better than people who steroetype me for the car I drive. Shall I pick something out about you and do the same?

Actually you started out this post doing just that: "All you SUV haters", like you have any clue who we are or why we object or give any thought to the validity of our arguments. You want what you want, and damn the consequences. Sounds like we fit each other's stereotypes pretty well.

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tj2001cobra

You DID say "fuck you"...

It's not a money thing. It's a size issue. I DO think that a Tahoe or an Expedition (SUV), or something of that nature is nicer than a Civic or a Focus (small car). I enjoy being able to get into a vehicle without banging my knee or head on the frame of the car. I'm a big guy (over 6'0) and hate cramming into little cars. I think alot of people who hate SUV's would get them, though, if they could afford them. SUV's have a lot more uses, can haul a lot of stuff and a lot more people.

I could care less what other people drive. I think it is kind of pointless to pick on SUV's because they dont have good fuel economy or things to that effect. I am sure that there are plenty of other things that people do that are terrible for the environment.

You are right. I did start the topic off incorrectly. I just get really frustrated with the fact that people get so irate over what I drive. I'd hate to hear what people think about my blown Cobra with no cats. I think I got 12 miles a gallon last time I checked. It is a little car but I have alot of fun when I drive it!

Want my opinion on the worst drivers? Mini-van owners. Maybe that will start another arguement

theguyondacouch

It's not a money thing. It's a size issue. I DO think that a Tahoe or an Expedition (SUV), or something of that nature is nicer than a Civic or a Focus (small car).I enjoy being able to get into a vehicle without banging my knee or head on the frame of the car

see: lincoln, caddilac etc...


SUV's have a lot more uses, can haul a lot of stuff and a lot more people.

See: minivan, and besides, how often do you haul 2x4's in your tahoe?

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1337haxor

I love my SUV (Lexus LX470)
I feel that SUV's aren't for some people. I am a good curtious driver, but there are just some pricks out there in small cars and SUV's. Maybe they should have a license to drive an SUV or any larger vehicles. Some people just don't know how to handle the power and size.

eribrav

The thing that amazes me about SUV's is how the industry has taken a vehicle that does so many things so poorly, used a superb image creating PR campaign, and had huge commerical success

Want to really haul lots of stuff? Get a pickup or a station wagon?

Gas mileage? Small car

Comfy ride? A nice sedan

Want to watch a big SUV power through mud and climb rocks in commercials, while you sit in suburban traffic and breath smog each day on your commute? Grab the SUV!

danielboy

amen. I have been in two SUV accidents.

splck

I like seeing all these SUV's in the city...it gives me something to snicker at.
I always get a chuckle when I see some of these SUV's in the big city stuck in gridlock. If someone is fool enough to buy a BMW or Lexus SUV and drive around in an urban environment looking like idiots, who am I to stop them?
All I know is when you get out on the dirt and mud roads you NEVER see the city-slickers in their shitty high priced SUV's.
I can honestly say that if I was in my truck and I saw a fancy SUV stuck in the mud out in the country, I'd toot my horn and drive on by (unless it was woman with kids, I'm still a nice guy you know)

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powder

SUVs seem kinda useless to me. Big gas guzzling boxes. Part of the reason the death rate in small cer is high is probably cause they got smoked by an SUV. I drive a 3/4 ton diesel 4x4 pick up with a big faking bush bumper & winch on the front. If I ever hit a little car I'd go right over them. I'm not proud of this but it is a fact. I don't drive a big truck cause it's cool. I drive it cause it is handy & cause I can't put 5 people in a toyota PU. If I didn't need a truck to haul equipment I would drive a car. I'd get something practical like a turbo Volvo wagon. All the SUVs I see on the streets just make me shake my head in wonder.

guthmund

I've read every reply and honestly have no idea what you guys are arguing about.

It seems that there are ass-head drivers everywhere. A lot of them drive little sedans and lot of them drive big ass SUVs. So, of course, if these guys get into accidents then the SUV group is going to have a much better safetly rating simply because they're driving small tanks.

I don't mind the smaller SUVs. I don't, however, like the really big ones. If you ever have the need to transport 12 and haul all their luggage, maybe you should consider buying a "short" bus or better yet, taking two cars.

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Fire

I require a large vehicle for my work- I sell swords and knives at conventions, ren faires, ect and need the cargo space- despite this, I have no use for suv's- give me a pickup truck or a cargo van- cheaper, and more utilitarian- I do not, however, care if others want/need suv's- this is a free country, driven by MONEY- as long as people will pay 40,000 for a high dollar suv, more power to them, sure it makes little sense to me, but if you dont like suv's vote with your DOLLAR- that is the only thing that matters in the REAL world, and the one thing that auto makers will respond to....

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