lurkette

I've noticed a couple of disturbing things lately on TFP. This place has become like a second home to me, and I'm wondering if I was perhaps too quick to give this community my trust and my admiration.

1. People are so careless with words. I know it's the internet and that because you can just pretty much go direct from brain to keyboard there's a stream-of-consciousness quality to peoples' posts. But that doesn't excuse the fact that some people just seem to spout off whatever shit comes to their mind without thinking about what they really want to say, or how it's going to be perceived by the people who read it. I spend a lot of time on my posts. I think about things. I edit, I re-edit, I just delete a lot of replies that don't really add much to the discussion. I see this as my responsibility to this community.

What you say does matter. Words have value. They're all we have to reach each other, or at least to make that attempt. If you're careless with them, don't blame the rest of us for misinterpreting you or for getting offended because you use offensive words. They may not be directed at me but I can find their use offensive nonentheless.

2. Just because you are entitled to an opinion doesn't mean that you're immune from challenge to your logic or lack thereof. So many peope just yack yack yack about what they think, and then when someone challenges their assumptions they say "well, I'm entitled to my opinion." Fine. And the rest of us are entitled to point out where the information you base your opinion on is wrong, or where your assumptions and logic are just incorrect. I'm sick of this relativistic "everyone's opinion counts" crap, when most people don't take the time to educate themselves or examine their own assumptions. Opinions are not sacrosanct, especially when they're not based on facts.

And what exactly is the point of just running around with your own opinions in your head thinking "I'm so right. I'm so right. I can't believe how stupid the rest of you are. I'm just so right." If you are not willing to discuss, and challenge your own views, and put your opinions at risk, then you might as well keep them to yourself or you're just some crazy guy on a soapbox at the student union.

And saying "you know what? I was wrong. I'm sorry" does not automatically make your gonads shrink. There's a lot of value in those particular words, for you and for the rest of us.

I've really enjoyed this place, and there are a lot of wonderful, loving, intelligent, interesting people here. It makes me sad and sick that a few people can make it so unpleasant for the rest of us that we consider leaving. It doesn't take a whole lot just to be nice and to think for half a second before you hit "submit."

Haven't decided whether I'll stay and ignore some folks, or leave and chalk this last few months up to a very nice hiatus from the usual shit one finds on the internet. I guess it's partly up to you.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

meff

Good observations.. I hope everyone reads this and can improve their posts with your information

Thanks for the research.

__________________
Toy-like people make me boy-like.

Giant Hamburger

Hail Lurkette!

Your words ring true for me. There is a lot of chaff that must be separated from the wheat of this place. I have found this is true with any large group of personalities. Focus on the enjoyment you extract from this place and try to ignore the rest. People like you and your eloquence are needed for this place to thrive.

I might not add much on a personal level but I do filter my posts before I submit. I try to post only for the entertainment of others and myself. If I interpret my writing as negative I quickly exit explorer and revisit TFP at a later and more positive time of day.

If there are individuals that consistently detract from your enjoyment here I strongly suggest you put them on your ignore list. I find it very satisfying to deny my personal irritants very existence as I read. I can think of no worse punishment for the fools.

I, for one, hope you stay.
-GH

rockogre

Don't leave, it's people like you that add quality to the forum!

Several people have pointed out that I am pretty opinionated but that's not the same as purposefully trying to be hurtful. Occasionally I bump heads with someone, I've even been called down a time or two by the MODs when I got a little over zelous but I never squash anyone on purpose. (I do steer clear of the Politics thread though, that would just be looking for trouble).

The point is that several of us, and I believe that is is the majority, think before we respond, expecially when it starts to get personal. I stay with the TFP because of people exactly like you. Thinking, feeling, community minded people that think beyond their own feelings and prejudices. We may have never communicated but I read your posts and think that your leaving will diminish the TFP. Stick around and help us.

And it's nice to know that my gonads won't shrink. I always appreciate gonadal safety information.

__________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

MSD

This is one of the most valuable lessons that can be learned in life.

Lebell

Welcome to the internet.

It is an unfortunate side effect of life that there are people out there that are not as thoughtful as we would like them to be. I myself have suffered from this and have also been affected by it.

So I don't know what to tell you, Lurkette, other than you might just need a break (we all do, sooner or later).

Because anywhere you go, you will find thoughtless people. But it is up to you how you are going to let them affect your life.

Personally, I hope you stay.

We need members like you who think about what they are saying and are passionate about what they believe.

You and members like you are what make this place worth coming to.

If not for the rockogres, lurkettes, artelevisions, etc., I would have left a long time ago.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Macheath

I know how you feel about the deleted replies thing. I usually cut and paste my ditched posts to a notepad file for posterity. It can be interesting reading coming back to it. It's not as if it was offensive or anything either - just stuff I decided was ultimately pointless; sometimes even the occasional fatally flawed argument.

Don't worry about the occasional stubborn and stupidly aggressive mule. They're there to be laughed at - maybe even pitied...nah, no need for that - just enjoy their silly circus performace while it lasts.

Bill O'Rights

Whoa...back-up there, Gorgeous. As rockogre pointed out... "it's people like you that add quality to the forum!"

Do you have any idea how many times that I've read a thread. formulated an opinion and crafted a response...just to find out that lurkette has beaten me to it. Sometimes as I'm typing it up.

You have earned a reputation, for yourself, as providing intelligent, insightful and thought provoking posts. This board needs a few more <i>like</i> you...not one less.

This board attracts people from all walks of life, bringing with them a vast array of experiences and life styles. I find that helpful when discussing <i>any</i> subject, as you can glean a wealth of opinions and viewpoints on virtually anything.

Like any "community" the TFP has a few "village idiots" wandering around. But, I find that "Mayor Halx" and his appointed "Police Force" do a pretty good job of weeding out the totally undesirables.

I do hope that you stay.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

lurkette

I'm sorry, everyone. I didn't mean this to turn into a "convince Lurkette to stick around" thread. But I appreciate your kind words and it's nice to know that people want me around.

Mostly I just want people to take a step back and think about what their words MEAN and what impact they want those words to have. I want them to be intentional about their responses, and I want them to obey the charter. I get the feeling I'm kinda preaching to the choir, though, to some extent

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

rockogre

Preaching to the choir or not, your points are well taken and as I write this I noticed that for six posts, not counting yours, there have been 53 people that accessed this thread.

Not all of those 53 are in the choir so your words are getting out there. I also know that if we had a maturity scale on every poster it would run the gamut from childish to old fuddy duddy.

This community is larger than the town I live in so we should have a pretty fair share of all types.

Be glad that we think you should be in the choir.

__________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Darkblack

Lurkette, I enjoy your view of things and you always have very thought provoking threads. I think we have only been on opposite sides of a discussion once (child leash thread) and I hope that nothing I have ever said offended you or contributed to you posting this thread. If I ever say anything you find offensive or hurtful please PM me. I know sometimes my thoughts flow onto a post and I have stern opinions on some things but I really do not like to hurt people or seem like I am closed-minded.

phredgreen

so here's the dea... the world is diverse and full of all kinds of interesting people, some of whom get off on yanking your chain and others who, like those you talk about, are so dead-set in their ways that a change of heart would be a major life desicion. the internet is a lovely little slice of that real world, it seems to be a pretty even slice, so the same people you're gonna find out there are gonna be around here. the thing you need to realize is that this is all there is to these people. to some, it's a wonderful existence, to others it's a pathetic game that we can't stop watching, but either way, those people are there and will show up in numbers at any given time. the thing is, if you take everything they say to heart, you're gonna end up like them, so you need to take what they say with a grain of salt. there are gonna be negative people in whatever you do in life. how you handle that negativity is one of the things that defines you as a person. if you can handle what they say and move on, then great. you have support here at the tfp, you have a mod team that is more than willing to review anything you think shouldn't be there and make a desicion based on a consensus. you may not always like the desicion, as others are allowed their opinions, but if it is truly rude and out of place, it can be dealt with. you're not alone, we love this place and wnat it to be the best experience for everyone... but as with anything, we can't please everyone all the time.

__________________
My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
- Thomas Paine

Lebell

Dear phred,

I love ya, man, but please,

Capitalization and paragraphs!

They are your friends!

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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phredgreen

bah. freehand typing is the way to go. you people with your authoritarian grammatical rules, you will be the downfall of... me?


i'm sorry... i think faster than i type, so just getting it all keyed out is enough of a challenge for me.

__________________
My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
- Thomas Paine

Eweser

I am fairly new to TFP but I totally agree with all stated here. I wish that people would not only follow this advice here, but in their daily lives as well. I try to live by the idea that some things that are said cannot be taken back no matter how many "I'm sorry"s are said, although it never hurts to say those two powerful words.

__________________
"Whoever wrote this episode should die!"

Midnight_Son

Nobody wants you to leave and nobody’s trying to piss you off.
We all share different opinions and I for one enjoy the little debates
That go on here. I think the regulars can carry on a healthy debate
With out offending the other users. For instance, if I say something
That you find offensive, submit a reply and ask me about it…..if I don’t
Respond, send me a p.m. and point it out to me.

Chances are, in most cases, the writer was in a different state of mind than
The reader. The writer probably didn’t mean to offend anyone. But, if
He or she did…..give that person a chance to explain him or herself.

I for one have probably ticked off a couple people in my time here. Due to
The fact that I say what’s on my mind, I do it in “real life” so why should my
Online family be any different? That being said…yes, people should really
re-read what they write before they hit that “submit” button. That’s just common
sense.

I love your opinions, even if they’re not always mine….if everyone agreed with
eachother about everything, the TFP would be a very dull and boring place.

__________________
SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority.

lurkette

Thanks for replying, and I am really glad you're here. I love reading what you have to say (and I love your photography).

I absolutely respect and value a diversity of opinions. I'm not trying to shut down debate, or say that everyone should agree. This isn't about opinions, it's about how opinions are expressed. Listen, I hope seretogis doesn't get pissed if I hold him up as an example, but he and I disagree constantly in the politics forum, but I really, REALLY respect him because he never ever spouts off - his opinions are always (as far as I can remember) expressed politely and thoughtfully, and he's willing to admit it if he's wrong or if someone comes up with something that changes his mind on a topic. He has very sincerely held beliefs that happen to differ almost diametrically from mine, and he defends them admirably and makes me think. As long as people are respectful and civil, I absolutely defend their right to disagree with anyone and everyone.

What bothers me is people who express opinions - even those I agree with (especially those I agree with, because it makes "us" look bad) - disrespectfully or thoughtlessly. And it happens all time.

I don't want people to stifle their expression, I just want them to work a little harder to express themselves responsibly and in a way that 1. builds community instead of dividing it, and 2. furthers understanding of the things we're talking about instead of polarizing peoples' positions.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Midnight_Son

Well said….very well said.
Damn……..there’s nothing there I can argue with!
we need to remember one very, very
Important fact : “Idiots use computers too”
I think the best we can hope for is that we all
Try to keep things civil and corgal…and, when
The idots rear their ugly heads we rely on the Mods
To do their jobs and keep our home a decent place
To live.

So you stayin?

__________________
SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority.

Cynthetiq

hmm... i missed this thread all day...

My longer sig made it easier, but for reference to those rookies out there....

I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, chinese, japanese, korean, hippie, cop, bum, english, irish, french, catholic, protestant, jewish, buddhist, muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, democrat, republican, either you're an asshole, or you're not.

and I try hard not to be an asshole

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

spectre

I think this sums things up for me as well. I have my opinions, and I have gotten into shouting matches IRL over them, but I tend to try and stay calm while posting. I don't like to post without reading what I've already written first. Like several others, I've deleted what I was typing because I thought it wouldn't help my point by spouting off.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

G_Whiz

WOW, lurkette you really opened an issue for many people here.

First, I would note that I rewrote that first sentence about 4 times. I think many of the people who post frequently do try to think through what they are saying.

Second, I doubt that you will see any responses from those who caused you to start this thread. Many don't care because they do see their opinion as the only thing that matters, don't confuse them with facts. Others aren't truly interesting in communicating on a true give and take basis. And still others can't be bothered to read a long first post, they want the Reader's Digest Version.

There are a variety of things that get under my skin as I journey through the forums. I have a particular issue with people who cannot use the correct words to express themselves. It doesn't invalidate their points, but it does jar me out of their train of thought. A particular example is the number of people who don't understand when to use "their" or "there". But, I've just decided to let it go. After all there are plenty of people who post excellent content in their (there?) messages.

I guess my basic message is that it is easier to learn to let go of the little things. Don't lose the bigger picture of the value of the community that we have here.

__________________
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?

Cynthetiq

G_whiz, yes you are right, it's not about converting the masses. It's about being able to give and take in debate and decorum. To broaden your horizons and your mind. Like parachutes, minds only work when they are open.

I invite anyone to help me change my position on anything in my life. It's rather simple.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

WhoaitsZ

oh man. phred, thanks for the first smile i've had in a few hours. that truly cracked me up.

lebell, sometimes you have to break grammar up, dude!

Lebell

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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IC3

I really hope I am not one of the guys some of you think this way of.

Sometimes I have a hard time getting my thoughts out in my Journal or anywhere. The way I think of them, I can't really type them out the way I want to.

It's actually pretty pathetic the amount of times I work on a reply trying to get my thoughts out exactly the way I am thinking them...Then I just say fuck it and push the back button.

Double D

There's really nothing I can add.
I endorse lurkette's stance and the eloquent way she articulated it here.
Thank you to the others for the humor.
And a hug to you that are worried about being offensive--just as she predicted--you are in the choir, guys!

I think I'm going to keep the *village idiot* image in mind the next time my hackles are getting raised. It certainly brought a smile to my face today.

If you choose to go, lurkette, many people will be sad--and the village idiots will have triumphed. Please don't let them.
It's worth staying. Each of the posters in this thread make it so.

WhoaitsZ

sigh. looks familiar

i learned just like two weeks ago that, period, no matter where you go there will be assholes. assholes on the ground, in the air.. low and high.

i almost left completely then realized that the good guys here far outway the assholes. so here i am.

i'd be pained if you left.

i wish i could say i thought everything out before 'submit', but i don't. at times i make valid marks, at times not. different moods make a big difference.

also remember... words come out poorly on the net.

good luck.

GakFace

/me chains self to server. I'm not moving til you say you'll stay!

I can't add to what everyone has said for you to stay, simply because I don't want to restate it. I WOULD like to say, that if I ever act the way you have described. PM me and let me know. I might get angry at first, but I can't turn down a debate, especially if I become a better person because of it.

As Z said, assholes are everywhere, just like there are bad drivers, just gotta assume that one is around you.

G_Whiz: "A particular example is the number of people who don't understand when to use "their" or "there". "

Yeah that bothers me too. One that I ALWAYS notice is the "to" and "too" usage. Not many people pick that up, for some reason it stuck in my head.

Oh yeah, and to get back on topic before I end this thing. Lurkette, You are a great example of why I'm here. For all those not willing to argue what they think, or just say something and walk away... Thats not why I stay. (Thus, you leaving would be one less reason for me to stay.)

--And to end on a comical note...
Lebell: "If not for the rockogres, lurkettes, artelevisions, etc., "
Glad you didn't mention me. I'd be scared if there was more than one GakFace

__________________
RoboBlaster:
Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

MrFlux

[21:55] &lt;GakFace&gt; and i'm going there to
Explain yourself, sir! Hahaha!

Yes, some people are rather stubborn about their views and won't change them even after they're proven wrong. Personally, I'm stubborn in my views UNTIL I'm proven wrong basically, at which point I accept defeat and give up.

I don't see why it's so hard for other people to do this, there's nothing wrong with accepting defeat.

Some people do get a bit heated as well, which is only good in small doses. Surely you can express yourselves without coming across so angry? I dunno, it's just a thought.

O.k., I've spent the last few minutes pondering whether to click the submit button or not. *closes his eyes, thinks happy thoughts, and clicks Submit Reply*

GakFace

Hey! I corrected myself!

__________________
RoboBlaster:
Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

ARTelevision

As we evolve toward always more elevated discourse, this is a constructive helpful thread. Just so long as we all realize every one of us is an asshole sometimes.

__________________
create evolution

lurkette

Hard as I fight it, the evidence is there: yup, I'm an asshole sometimes. It's impossible not to be, really, unless you're the perfect Buddhist from the Tilted Philosophy thread But the key, at least for me, is to recognize my "asshole-ness" and try to find its source and overcome it. I have to realize that's not a goal for everyone, though. However, if some people are content with their "asshole-ness" they also have to be willing to deal with its consequences. Again, the Philosphy thread has a good example - a lot of people have been discussing morality in terms of one's actions effects on the larger group. We can't just be the way we want to be without impunity because we are social creatures, and our words and deeds have consequences for other people.

Anyhow, I realize this has just gotten WAY esoteric. Sorry.

So here's my promise and my request: I promise to stay and to try to make this place as lively and respectful a place as we all want it to be. And I ask that if I'm ever out of line, please let me know. If it hurts my feelings, too bad. I'll get over it. This place is such a great exercise in social engineering, full of really awesome people who want it to succeed, how could I think of leaving?

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Midnight_Son

Glad to see you’ve come to your sences…..
Now, pick a topic so we can argue about something new

sixate

Words do matter, but I'm a firm believer that actions speak louder than words. I know that verbally I'm probably more harsh than anyone hat I've ever known. I don't hand anyone a load of crap and never will. I'm a straight shooter and respect people who are the same way. Whether people want to believe it or not, just because I don't agree with someone's opinion that doesn't mean that I dislike them or that they should think as I do. We're all different and we all have different ways of keeping ourselves happy, and that's just the way things are. We all have different ways of communicating... Some people are more sensitive than others, and I often, more like always, look past that because I never let anyones opinions piss me off. It's peoples actions that piss me off.... Most people can bullshit their way into making someone think they are someone that they are not, but their actions will always outweigh their words.

lurkette

Maybe in real life this is true, but I don't think you can necessarily split things up into a hierarchy like this - actions > words. If, say, (purely hypothetical) someone goes around spewing thoughtless and somewhat hateful things about black people, but stops to help a stranded black motorist and gives money to the NAACP, it's not like the actions negate the words. They're independent events - the person has spread malicious ideas, which will have whatever effect they have, and the person has helped people, which will have whatever effect those actions have. If I was looking at that person and judging them at the end of their life, I might say one outweighed the other, but it's not like one causes the other to lose its effect.

And I know not everyone agrees, but I believe that words are symbolic action, if for no other reason than that they create the atmosphere we live in, and because communication is so central to who human beings are. If you want to look at it really simplistically, language -> thoughts -> actions, but the language in itself is enough action to create a particular reality.

Add to that the fact that on the internet words are all we have, and they become even more important.

I don't want to stifle expression.
I don't want to create a "culture of nice" where we all have to agree and talk politically correctly.
I just want people to be aware that...well, words do matter.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

sixate

I understand your point, but I would doubt that someone who says they hate blacks would help any black person... All I can say is I go by what I've learned from people in general. Through my person experiences I've been lied to plenty, but I can always see the true person through their actions and reactions to certain things. We all have had different life experiences that shape us into the individuals we are.... I can't help any of it and I wouldn't change any of my experiences either. And yes, I guess you are right about words meaning more over the net bacause that is all we do have to get to know each other. I never really looked at it like that. I only know how to be me. I try to change certain things, but it's not always easy to do.

unoaman

Well lurkette...here it is nearly a year later...whatcha think by now?

I'm relatively new here, and can't say that I know you, however I have noted some of your postings; thats enough to make me say "glad you're still here".

Cynthetiq

Nice blast from the past. It's important to look back and take stock every so often.

I'm glad that lurkette is still here, and that our discussion is pretty good here.

lurkette

Wow, I never thought this thread would get dug up and bumped!

I'm definitely glad I'm still here, and I hope that in the intervening time I've gotten a bit more tolerant and a bit less sensitive. I still say words matter, but sometimes you have to say "meh, fuck it" and let it slide, or you end up tilting at windmills that aren't yours to tilt at.

Dono if that makes any sense, but the bottom line is, I'm glad I stuck around and glad to be here with the folks who make the place what it is.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

crow_daw

The only times in my history here that I've gotten really pissed at the TFP have had to do with South-bashing. I've mentioned it many times in other threads, but I guarantee you that if a thread came up about something bad happening in the South, at least three ignorant posters would just make a totally irrelevant and meaningless statement that goes something along the lines of "Well hey, it's the South, they're all legally retarded, so we gotta excuse them."

I'm so sorry to some of you who see me bitch about this on a regular basis, but it's my only real grievance with this place and it honestly does offend me. It's like I said in a post in another thread, one of the TFP's main rules is that you should strive not to offend others, this is a safe haven for everyone. Well, that rule just gets completely ignored when it comes to us Southerners, and I just can't make myself understand why that's OK. It's not enough to make me leave, and I guess I really need to stop bitching before I get kicked out, but I just wish I could make some people understand.

Now, there's my preaching for the day. That aside, I love this place, and yes, you will see ignorance in regards to many other topics and discussions, but most of the time they are handled efficiently by the mods or other TFP'ers. And lurkette, I know you've heard it enough already, but I'm not just following the crowd. I look forward to reading your posts everytime I see your screen name. You are one of the people here who I greatly respect, and I really hope that you do stick with us.

__________________
"We each have a star, all we have to do is find it. Once you do, everyone who sees it will be blinded." - Earl Simmons