Children in public places - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

MSD · 07-14-2003, 06:04 AM

The worst my aprents did to discipline me was a slap on the back of the hand. It hurts like hell for a minute, then fades without leaving a mark, and also without causing any damage. If I got a slap, I straightened out really quickly. I think that some sort of physical punishment like that is perfectly fine, as long as the parents don't get carried away and start beating. It's basic conditioning. Kid acts up, parent threatens to slap, kid doesn't stop, parent slaps. After the first few times, the kid should learn what comes after threatening, and stop then.

Minx · 07-14-2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
Everything that your kids do until the day they turn 18 is a reflection of your abilities as a parent.

I disagree with this statement. You cannot control every single aspect of your children's lives when they are 16, 17, 18.
I agree with the other things you have said, mostly. As a parent of two children I am a firm believer that unruly children should be dealt with. I don't agree with parents who take their kids out for dinner just to let them run free with no care as to who they are bothering. But, I also believe that people who don't have kids of their own are quick to make faces and disapprove when kids are just being kids. Sometimes they are loud and boisterous and this doesn't mean they are being bad...they are being kids.
My boys are well behaved in public but that isn't to say that one of these days my two year old isn't going to blow a fuse because he's too tired in the grocery store and embarass me. Will I make everyone have to put up with it....no. But will I also accept the looks of "non-child-bearing" people who seem to view it as a personal attack on their peace and quiet? No.
You'll understand when you have kids of your own. I am in no way shape or form trying to advocate letting your kids be mis-behaved. This is not the case at all. I'm only saying that you cannot blame everything on the parents. And to say that a parent has to be totally responsible for the children's actions until they are adults...I don't think so. Do we mold them, guide them...of course. Do their friends also when they are 14 and up? You bet.
I look at my own family. I am the youngest of three.....we were all raised with the same economic factors, very nice home, stay-at-home Mother, secure family, etc etc etc. My brother and I are the exact same - temperment, everything....we are both successful and mentally with it. My sister on the other hand is a nut case. Totally screwed up. How can that be my parent's fault when we were all raised the same? This is why I disagree with your statement. I know from personal experience it isn't always the parents fault.

krazixs · 07-14-2003, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minx
I disagree with this statement. You cannot control every single aspect of your children's lives when they are 16, 17, 18.
I agree with the other things you have said, mostly. As a parent of two children I am a firm believer that unruly children should be dealt with. I don't agree with parents who take their kids out for dinner just to let them run free with no care as to who they are bothering. But, I also believe that people who don't have kids of their own are quick to make faces and disapprove when kids are just being kids. Sometimes they are loud and boisterous and this doesn't mean they are being bad...they are being kids.
My boys are well behaved in public but that isn't to say that one of these days my two year old isn't going to blow a fuse because he's too tired in the grocery store and embarass me. Will I make everyone have to put up with it....no. But will I also accept the looks of "non-child-bearing" people who seem to view it as a personal attack on their peace and quiet? No.
You'll understand when you have kids of your own. I am in no way shape or form trying to advocate letting your kids be mis-behaved. This is not the case at all. I'm only saying that you cannot blame everything on the parents. And to say that a parent has to be totally responsible for the children's actions until they are adults...I don't think so. Do we mold them, guide them...of course. Do their friends also when they are 14 and up? You bet.
I look at my own family. I am the youngest of three.....we were all raised with the same economic factors, very nice home, stay-at-home Mother, secure family, etc etc etc. My brother and I are the exact same - temperment, everything....we are both successful and mentally with it. My sister on the other hand is a nut case. Totally screwed up. How can that be my parent's fault when we were all raised the same? This is why I disagree with your statement. I know from personal experience it isn't always the parents fault.

In my case it's a little hard I have a son with a ex-wife and when My fiance` and I go out with my son who is 2 yr's old he behaves very well and does not run around like a maniac or anything. However I hear from several people who see him around with his mother that she let's him run around like a monster, now what do I do about this?

Minx · 07-14-2003, 02:13 PM

That's a tough situation krazixs and in a way I'm in the same spot as my kids also spend time with their father (my ex) so I have no control over how he disciplines them (or doesn't, as the case may be) when I'm not there. I guess ultimately you don't have any control in that situation. Be thankful that your boy is good when he's with you. Obviously he has learned how to be well behaved when he is with you so it's not as if he is getting no discipline whatsoever.
Also, to play devil's advocate here for a moment, these people that told you your ex was letting him "run around like a monster".... are they friends of yours (or family) who have something against the ex? Or, perhaps these people saw the two of them outside and she was letting him blow off some steam (two year olds tend to have a LOT of steam

)....there could be reasons behind what you are getting from heresay. I would especially wonder if he behaves well with you. Obviously if she wasn't doing a proper job of raising your boy you would see signs of it when he's with you.

krazixs · 07-14-2003, 02:51 PM

Well I hear it from both casual acquaintences and friends and family, so I'm not sure. But I do see it when I have him for my time with him. For about the first day he's kind of a brat but by the end of our time he's a great kid. I dunno what to think sometimes

frankx · 07-17-2003, 05:57 AM

Many parents today try to be a friend to their kids, instead of a parent because they are afraid of being rejected by their kids. I adore and get along very well with my parents, but when I was younger and in dire need of guidance they did not hesitate to put a board or belt to my ass if I needed it - and I love them for it. The blame for badly behaved children can be laid squarely at the feet of touchy-feely parents who fail to properly discipline.

Now as an adult, I find myself usually curtailing my activities to times when I know that bad parents with unruly children are less likely to be present. I do like children, but I cannot be around them for long periods of time because I am very outspoken on this matter and will usually say something and I just don't need the drama. I also work hard for and value my peace and quiet, and it disturbs me greatly when I see examples of otherwise responsible adults whose existences are totally controlled by their three-year-old.

Here's what I have been relegated to doing:

I see movies either very late at night or during the day when kids are in school or otherwise occupied. In the event of unruly children being present, I voice my objections - strongly and loudly - to the parents and to theater management when these inconsiderate cretins can't keep their kids quiet during the movie. Try it. It usually works.

I frequent restaurants where unruly children are not likely to be welcome, and I avoid the "family-friendly" places (Chuck-e-cheeses, Looney Birds, McDonalds, etc.). I have not been to a McDonalds in about ten years and probably will never go to one again. They're not meant for me anyway, and I can keep my cholesterol down.

I also stay out of stores that cater almost exclusively to that lifestyle (I avoid Wal-Mart and K-mart like the plague as a rule) and I tend to let corporate management know why.

I usually plan my vacations around times when kids are in school.

Although I remain very friendly with all members of my family, I do not usually attend large family functions, because my family is rife with examples of poor parenting. My family is well aware of my feelings about poor parenting, and are gracious enough not to push the point. They are also welcome anytime to come to my large, well-kept house - Which I easily afford by NOT having children.

Some of these may seem extreme steps, but they are necessary to maintain a quiet and peaceful balance in my life - One that some people made the choice to give up by having children and disciplining them poorly.

sexymama · 07-17-2003, 06:03 AM

Cybermike -- have your parents go to loveandlogic.com and look thro the materials. There are some excellent vidios/audios/books on raising the difficult child! The key is a willingness to learn and follow thro. Good luck to them and you.

themikkerman · 07-18-2003, 12:33 AM

I wanted to share my childhood with you guys, my siblings and I were some of the best behaved kids in town, everywhere we went people would compliment my parents on "what well behaved kids you have". We were that way for one reason and one reason only, my father put the fear of not God but the fear of his own wrath into us which looking back now made us well behaved. On the other hand, I can't think of one day in my entire childhood that I was happy my father was home. The beatings we endured far out weigh the chance for any happy memories. Today I have two beautiful little girls whom I have never raised a hand to, two little girls who run up to me every day I come home and throw their little arms around me saying daddy daddy, I missed you today. That friends to me is worth more than any material thing or anything else for that matter in this entire world. I also receive compliments as to how well behaved they are. I haven't talked to my Dad in many years, but if I did I would have to thank him for the lesson on how not to raise your kids. Thanks TFP for letting me vent alittle. I hope you all have as good a time with your kids as I do. If your not than you need to take a step back and try to figure out why it is your not.

grayman · 07-26-2003, 08:03 PM

I have two daughters who are 7 and 4 and I have worked very hard to make them understand that misbehaving in public is unacceptable. If they misbehave, they are removed from the situation, which is almost never what they want. If this is a negative for me, i.e., getting my dinner to go, then that is a sacrifice I have chosen to make by choosing to be a parent. It works surprisingly well, I have very few problems with them.

obediah · 07-26-2003, 09:16 PM

Hitting your kid is almost always a cop out. One possible exception is to put fear into children too young to reason yet (in the street, grabbing hot pan etc), and the reasoning behind that isn't to punish but to prevent a more severe injury.

Anyway, back to the cop out. For most children, consistent non-corporal punishment is just as corrective, it just takes a bit longer. Hitting is of course a lot easier, than establishing and sticking to other forms of punishment.

One real danger of hitting is that it teaches your child that the way to control other people is to hit them. Adults that were spanked as kids spank their kids, and I imagine are also much more likely to "spank" others - wives, strangers, etc. Back in the "good old days" when fathers laid down the law with children, spousal abuse was a lot more accepted as well.

One big problem I (and many others) have with hitting children is that it has to be about disciplining the child, and not about releasing frustration. When I see a child misbehave, and a parent tell them to stop, and then give them an all-business smack it doesn't really bother me. But when I see a kid and parent having a battle of the wills, and the parent finally lets loose out of frustration, then I can't help but think they have no business having children. It's not about how hard you hit your kid, it's about the expression on your face, the thought in your mind, it's the difference between being a parent and a bully.

Finally, while hitting is a cop out, if controlled it's still much better than nothing. While all those people that turned out "fine" after being spanked as a child, may have turned out even better with more expressive parents, they probably would have turned out much worse without either.

denim · 07-26-2003, 09:26 PM

Okay, you have a point. However, it's the bit about "expressive parents" which is key: lots of people were raised by parents from the left side of the curve, or by parents who were not creative, or by parents who couldn't really speak to their kids well. Or a combination of the above. Discipline of some sort needs to be used whether or not it's optimal, because the lack of it is worse.

Phaenx · 07-26-2003, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by krazixs
Well I hear it from both casual acquaintences and friends and family, so I'm not sure. But I do see it when I have him for my time with him. For about the first day he's kind of a brat but by the end of our time he's a great kid. I dunno what to think sometimes

I knew a guy from work who had a similar problem with his ex wife letting his kid run around like that, among other things. He hears about it, and when the child gets to his house one day he tells him that he had better start behaving when in public, even with his mother (he could care less if the boyo annoyed her, it was the principal of his spawn getting away with being obnoxious to strangers). So I don't know if the kid listened and his wife asked about why he wasn't so hyper or what, but she apparently found out he had a talking to. And you know what she did? Told a judge he threatened to beat the child and tried to take his visiting hours away

. This coming from the same lady who divorced the guy and reamed him for most of what he was worth. Class act.

nulltype · 07-27-2003, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cybermike
I have lost many toys, I've been grounded, I've had to stand in the corner, I've had to sit on the couch for hours with no tv or toys because I've misbebaved and I soon learned, the same tactics do not work with this child.

Nulltype - Tell me, how do think a child should be taught? My parents have tried everything and if you can magically come up with a solution they'd gladly try it, I can guarantee anything you can think of has been tried.

As I said, my knowledge in this area is lacking. I suggest you consult a psychologist or some sort of child psychologist or whomever is responsible for knowing such things. They may know methods that will eventually, if applied consistently, yield results. I fear for any boyfriends she may get in the future.

Trilidon · 07-27-2003, 08:00 AM

Paintball gun with sniper scope added - hiding in the womens garments section -annoying child in macy's skull - crying

You get the picture

Moonduck · 07-27-2003, 03:06 PM

If I cannot calm one of my two kids down, they get removed from the scene by me. Take em out of the restaurant, store, whatever. We go outside and they get a talking to until they calm down.

I cannot stand it when a 'parent', and I use the term loosely, allows a child to shriek. Makes those of us who have kids and know how to handle them look bad.

warrrreagl · 12-10-2004, 07:58 AM

It's been several months since I had a good rant about kids in restaurants, so I figure I'm overdue.

Last night, my beautiful bride and I decided to eat at our local O'Charley's. There is a server there who is particularly excellent, and we like their salads and burgers. But first, we had to clear the hostess hurdle.

What in God's wide world would lead a hostess to believe that a childless couple would want to sit in the booster-seat section? There was a small area toward the back that had a railing around it and several tables inside the railing. We'd never sat there before, so it seemed kind of cool at first. By the time we left, every other blessed table in our section had at least one booster seat with the obligatory screaming children in tow. This was clearly the toddler section, because they didn't seat these families at any of the other available tables; they simply herded all of them straight to us, as if drawn there by some curse.

There is a damn good reason why my wife and I don't eat at Chuck E. Cheese; we don't WANT to eat with children. We want to enjoy ourselves at a nice dinner out.

Hostesses: Don't assume everybody loves children at dinner time. My wife and I love kids, and I taught elementary school for 12 years, but I DON'T want to eat with them.

Parents: Recognize that if you take your kids out to eat in public, this would be a MARVELOUS opportunity to teach then how to behave in public. Let them explore themselves and their vocal ranges inside your home, NOT at the table next to me. What would happen to me if I started making deafening chimpanzee noises inside a restaurant? Then why should kids be allowed to do it?

Samalie · 12-10-2004, 08:06 AM

I dunno - when I take my kids to a restaurant, they shut the fuck up (well, they are forced to maintain a quiet conversational voice & not terrorize the place)

As to the screaming baby - well, honestly, it just happens sometimes. The most well behaved baby, wether slighltly ill, teething, etc can become a monster. I've had a few crying babies around me in restaurants and I usually smile at the parents, tell em I understand - cause I find oftentimes when mom & dad relax & stop worrying about the screamer, they're actually more successful at stopping said screamer.

Now movie theatres.....grrrrr......I had 2 good babies who would sleep through a movie and never bother anyone, and we took them all the time.....my son....damn....no movies for him, he can't shut up. But at least I have the courtesy to recognize he's a movie screamer & leave him at home.

My 1 request - baby in a theatre - dont scowl at us & act like assholes until the baby is a problem. Then you're within your right to bitch, but until then....shut the fuck up. I've had people (with my first 2 kids) bitch me out when I brought my babies into the theatre, only to eat mud & apologize for being pricks after the movie ended without a peep from my kids.

Oh, and speaking of movie theatres, for the love of god fucking teach your kids to shut the fuck up during the movie, or dont be suprised if I get the manager to kick your fucking sorry asses out. Thankyouverymuch.

bigoldalphamale · 12-10-2004, 08:25 AM

as a rule...any place that serves a very good steak, lobster, and nice wines should NOT be patronized by children, or at the very least, babies. if you go to a common chain of family restaurants like applebees, bennigans, ocharleys, chilis, ect... you really have no right to bitch about kids and babies. they are "family" establishments. the higher end restaurants, which do not so label themselves as family establishments, do generally discourage babies and kids. i know first hand, as i worked at a "$250 dinner for two" place during college. anyone that showed up with kids or babies were made to wait a ridiculous amount of time for a table. sometimes pushing up on two hours, thereby discouraging continued patronage. also, if a customer complained about the offending child's/baby's behavior, our manager would ask the baby wielding couple to relocate to another part of the restaurant...even in mid-meal.

so there, as a rule...unless its clearly a family restaurant...dont bring your damned kids. thanks.

Lak · 12-10-2004, 08:29 AM

Ok so I dont have kids but I have siblings who are much younger than me and I like to observe my own parents techniques (kinda odd? maybe...)
I think that simply following through with threats of punishment is a most excellent concept. However I think there is a more direct approach - no warning phase.
Instead of "quit being rowdy or you'll go to the car", how about "you're being rowdy, so get to the car!". Then theres no grace period, and if punishment comes without warning, children are more likely to be actively on guard for situations in which they might be punished again without warning - in other words, they behave.
I think it's a cool idea. Parent's comments? Anyone tried this?

Swirlie · 12-10-2004, 08:57 PM

So if a dog is barking in the neighbourhood, do you get annoyed?

My guess is yes. I don;t see much of a difference here.

I love children... can't wait to have my own. I, however, I fear I am going to be a very bad parent because I think I am going to be overly strict. My parents weren't - but my experiences over the last 15 years of being an "adult" lead me to believe that compared to what I see out there, including the majority of my friends who have children now, I will be an overly strict parent. My parents taught me very early on that respecting others, and their property was paramount - and I paid the price if I didn't show that respect - open hands to the ass... it stung... even more so if my friends saw it.

My children *WILL* (and I guarantee this) sit at their table in a restaurant. They will NOT make faces at the surrounding patrons. If they do - we leave. I have no tolerance for parents who allow their children to misbehave in public. I *WILL* embarass my children in public should they decide they want to embarass me there.

Society today is in trouble because of a lack of discipline... I understand completely the troubles of both parents being forced to work, and not having enough time to spend with their children. I still don't believe, however, that this is a valid excuse for the 10, 11, and 12 year old children I see running the streets, telling me to F off when I get angry at the for throwing snowballs at my truck, and laughing at me when I ask for their parents number so I can inform them of what they are doing... or worse yet - them giving it to me, and having the parent tell me to F off when I do inform them of it.

Parents need to start (again) taking responsibility for their children...

yellowchef · 12-10-2004, 09:44 PM

Todays parents are sometimes too busy to discipline. They leave their kids in front of the idiot box to learn how to behave. I've never seen such a sheep-ish mentality as I see in the children of today. Like Chris Rock said its not nice to see someone taking responsibility of their kids, thats your JOB! Have you seen the way kids on TV act? Have you seen the way (sorry if I offend anyone) but rich parents who try too hard to be PC and befriend their children instead of being an authority figure.

I don't and I refuse to understand why its ok for your 8 year old to run up and down the aisle of the grocery store, knock things off the shelf and just annoy the rest of the customers. I don't think spanking is wrong either, I misbehaved a FEW times and well when that hand hit my ass I figured it out and it NEVER happened again. I do agree that every child is a reflection of their parents and the parenting skills of said parents. If at 16 your kid is running amok, true you may not have total control but I know you can ground them, MONITOR their every move, and MAKE SURE they're where they need to be at all times. I know when I was probably 6 or 7 I threw a tantrum in the mall and got my ass spanked hardcore. One end of the mall to the other and out to the boonies to the car. It didnt end there, when I got home I was sent to my room..out came the TV, games, and my 3 toy chests(yes I had 3 3'x10' toy chests my dad made) and I was pretty much forced to sit there for 3 days. I could read, but you know.. I cant cause much chaos reading. I soon figured out it was a bad idea to throw a tantrum.

more soon Im tired

thingstodo · 12-11-2004, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by splck

Crying babies are a part of life folks, get used to it.
However, bad behaivior by older kids dosn't have to be accepted.
My kids behave quite well out in public (quiet, no running around, no fighting), but they occasionally have a break down and loose it. I can tell you that the ones that get pissed off tend to be people that don't have kids (I was one of those people too). Now that I have kids and I see a parent having a hard time with their kids I just give them the "I know what you're going through" look as long as they are dealing with the issue. If my kids start acting up, I'll deal with them and or remove them from the room so they don't disturb other people. I also don't take them to places where it's not appropriate to take kids.

The trick is to follow through on all disipline, as much as it pains you to do so.

Just wait till you have children...you might just change you opinion about kids in public. Chances are you'll be getting "the look", no matter if you are the best parent on earth (in your own mind).

Crying babies are a part of life, that is true, but they don't need to be a part of my life if the venue is innapropriate. Dining on anything above fast food and movie theaters are not the places for babies. I hi-lited a section of your comment which hits the proverbial nail on the proverbial head....

LIMilf · 12-11-2004, 07:13 AM

This is my number one pet peeve. When Im sitting down for a nice meal I hear some child/ren screaming their little heads off. It just ruins everything, but you can't blame the kids, its all the parents fault. That commercial for Nanny 911 makes me want to blow my head off.

NewBonk · 12-11-2004, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by splck

Just wait till you have children...you might just change you opinion about kids in public.

It will not, since my opinion is that decisions people make regarding their personal life should only affect them.

Decide to participate in the process that creates offspring (intentionally or not) and you should have to endure the screaming and bad behavior. Obviously you get to enjoy the many good parts of parenthood as well. You made the decision, you deal with it. I should not have to.

I occasionally hear the retort that parents have to bring their kids with them or the parents would never get to leave the house. So now I get to suffer? Gee, thanks.

Blackthorn · 12-12-2004, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lurkette

I think part of the problem is that most parents have no clue how to parent effectively. They think that discipline is either threats, physical punishment, or cajoling and wheedling. I think basic behaviorism should be a prerequisite for all parents. Reward behavior you want to encourage, punish behavior (or remove rewards) you want to extinguish. And be consistent. My dog is more well behaved than most peoples' children.

lurkette sums it up nicely. I was eating in a restaurant recently and witnessed an older father discipline his roughly 10 year old son. It was a quiet, verbal discussion that involved the removing of access to PS2 for a week unless he corrected himself. Then he tried for two weeks. It was pretty effective. He is a lone wolf example of consistency since the young man obviously knew his father meant what he was saying.

Charlatan · 12-13-2004, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakFace

i remember once when I was in best buy.. some little girl was having a temper tantrum, and she got mad and just laid down on the floor, to prove she wasn't going anywhere.. mind you she wasn't staying all that quiet. The mother was mad and said FINE! YOU JUST STAY THERE! and let her stay there. That pissed me off. Her husband was smart and got his daughter and brought her outside.. only to have his wife give him that evil glare. Yes, she was a smart one, "Lets just let the kid stay here and make an Ass out of my parenting skills.. If I have any.."

Quite frankly, letting the kid have the temper tantrum *is* good parenting under many circumstances. I can think of a number of times when my son was three and he had a tantrum about something or other while we were shopping... My attitude is don't give him the attention he is looking for... walk away and let him make a specatacle of himself. He will (and did) quickly realize how pointless the tears and moaning really are.

If I were to go to him and ask him to be quite, etc. it would have been pointless. You can't reason with a three year old. I certainly wasn't going to hit him.

He learned, quite quickly actually, that nothing was going to come of his inappropropriate actions and stopped doing them.

Did it annoy a few of my fellow shoppers? Sure. Did I feel bad about it... very little.

Did my method work? Damn straight.

william · 12-13-2004, 07:58 AM

Parenting isn't easy? Duh - ask your mother how easy it was. This is a rant that should be given more respect. Kids cry for a reason, more often than not (when out in public)they're tired. I see it all of the time in the mall. Little bastards screaming his head off, and mom's on the phone making her way to the food court (SUPERSIZE ME). Todays world is too much about ME. If you want to see parents that care, look outside - they're there. They just care enough about their kids to not subject them to life at such an early age.

Antikarma · 12-13-2004, 10:11 AM

I dunno, I won't respond to a lot of this because I find a lot of the comments to be uninformed speculation about a topic they know nothing of and only feel the need to comment because its a 30 second inconvenience in their lives. To me it seems a lot like the people who watch CSI and find themselves an authority on policing tactics. "Because I was once a child, or saw someone with a child, I must know better than THOSE parents because their child is screaming"

To those who wanted to stick to the topic, children screaming in public, I say this; I share your pain, but its situational. I've had my daughters both start crying in a restaurant. They were swiftly removed from the scene. But when I was working from home and would go shopping and my daughter started crying, I'm sorry but I'm not going to put everything down, leave, go home, come back and restart everything so you can peruse the frozen peas section in silence. And more likely than not, my child's screaming is less painful than the music they're piping in. Yes, I will make my child the absolute focus of attention to be sure that she stops as soon as possible, but your inconvenience is the last thing on my mind at that exact point in time, thank you very much.

That being said, yes, we do plan ahead. I'm not going to take my 3 year old to a fancy restaurant or a movie because I know that the chance is there, however minute, that my child COULD inconvenience others. And the aforementioned places are somewhere where children are not expected to be (as opposed to say, that supermarket I was talking about)

And to touch on another topic, I'll play devil's advocate. I was spanked. Hell I got the leather belt as a child. And believe it or not, I do not feel the urge to murder innocent women on the street or even to fight. Heck I haven't been in a fight since grade ten. And even WORSE, I spank my kids. Good lord no. And no its not an abusive battering with a phone book to hide the bruising, its one swift spanking to the hand. They know when its coming, and they hate it.

Funny, my two daughters are angels that rarely if EVER require this, and I get comments all the time about how well behaved my children are. Spanking, when used RESPONSIVELY and not in anger, is a useful tool in a parent's arsenal to be sure that their children. And should you choose not to spank, that is wonderful, but do not stand opn a pulpit and speak that spanking causes undo aggression. I would argue that its not spanking, its the manner in which some spankings are administered.

/steps off pulpit and duly awaits the flame war and threatening emails.

maleficent · 12-13-2004, 10:40 AM

I'm not a parent. I have no desire to be one because I have absolutely zero patience. However, I have common sense, an attribute that seems to be missing in a lot of parents these days.

I cannot tell you how many flights I am on in the course of a year (i travel 45 + weeks a year) at least 1/2 those flights I'm seated in front of a child (not a baby) that is so poorly behaved, I want to use the emergency exit. If my seat isn't being kicked, then the tray table is being played with, or they are fussing over something. Yes, I have no patience, and I understand that being trapped in a seat for 3 hours is the suckage. It's not the kids fault. It's the parents fault for not taking along enough stuff to keep said child entertained. Most recently, the flight attendent asked the parent of a squirmy whiney child if it wanted an activity book, the mother flat out said no, the kid was fine as it proceeded to kick my chair over and over and over again.

There was a hotel I was in recently, who I guess mom and dad wanted some alone time. So they sent the kids (2 of them, under the age of 7) out into the hallway to play. This was about 9pm, and these hellions were running up and down the hallway yelling and screaming. Kids aren't at fault, it's the parents fault.

Ihave a beautiful blonde haired, blue eyed, angelic looking niece (I think she's 7) I know she's demon spawn. This child has thrown temper tantrums in the mall, my sister and her family have been asked to leave a family restaurant and never return because of this child, they have been asked to leave an ice cream place and never return because of this child. Demon spawn is spoiled rotten and knows she can get her own way by throwing a tantrum, why -- because my sister gets embarassed at DS's episodes and will do anything to shut them up.

Last year, my parents were babysitting for DS and her siblings, I was over assisting, I was playing chess with my young nephew when DS throws a tantrum over something. Laying on the floor, kicking screaming, fake crying, no one came to her rescue. At one point she stops gets up, walks over to wehre her brother and I were, and asks Isn't anyone paying attention to me? Her brother said No, and continued playing the game, and looked at me and said she really is a pest isn't she. I said nothing cause I was gonna start laughing.

Stompy · 12-13-2004, 10:42 AM

This thread is a good example of why you SHOULDN'T have kids

07-14-2003, 02:13 PM	#44 (permalink)
Minx Junkie Location: Up yonder	That's a tough situation krazixs and in a way I'm in the same spot as my kids also spend time with their father (my ex) so I have no control over how he disciplines them (or doesn't, as the case may be) when I'm not there. I guess ultimately you don't have any control in that situation. Be thankful that your boy is good when he's with you. Obviously he has learned how to be well behaved when he is with you so it's not as if he is getting no discipline whatsoever. Also, to play devil's advocate here for a moment, these people that told you your ex was letting him "run around like a monster".... are they friends of yours (or family) who have something against the ex? Or, perhaps these people saw the two of them outside and she was letting him blow off some steam (two year olds tend to have a LOT of steam )....there could be reasons behind what you are getting from heresay. I would especially wonder if he behaves well with you. Obviously if she wasn't doing a proper job of raising your boy you would see signs of it when he's with you. __________________ You've been a naughty boy....go to my room!

07-14-2003, 02:51 PM	#45 (permalink)
krazixs Psycho Location: courtin in the kitchen	Well I hear it from both casual acquaintences and friends and family, so I'm not sure. But I do see it when I have him for my time with him. For about the first day he's kind of a brat but by the end of our time he's a great kid. I dunno what to think sometimes __________________ The Kender in your party has just screamed in fear. Please roll a d20 to see how many of your body parts are still identifiable.

07-17-2003, 05:57 AM	#46 (permalink)
frankx Psycho Location: The Tip of the Boot	Many parents today try to be a friend to their kids, instead of a parent because they are afraid of being rejected by their kids. I adore and get along very well with my parents, but when I was younger and in dire need of guidance they did not hesitate to put a board or belt to my ass if I needed it - and I love them for it. The blame for badly behaved children can be laid squarely at the feet of touchy-feely parents who fail to properly discipline. Now as an adult, I find myself usually curtailing my activities to times when I know that bad parents with unruly children are less likely to be present. I do like children, but I cannot be around them for long periods of time because I am very outspoken on this matter and will usually say something and I just don't need the drama. I also work hard for and value my peace and quiet, and it disturbs me greatly when I see examples of otherwise responsible adults whose existences are totally controlled by their three-year-old. Here's what I have been relegated to doing: I see movies either very late at night or during the day when kids are in school or otherwise occupied. In the event of unruly children being present, I voice my objections - strongly and loudly - to the parents and to theater management when these inconsiderate cretins can't keep their kids quiet during the movie. Try it. It usually works. I frequent restaurants where unruly children are not likely to be welcome, and I avoid the "family-friendly" places (Chuck-e-cheeses, Looney Birds, McDonalds, etc.). I have not been to a McDonalds in about ten years and probably will never go to one again. They're not meant for me anyway, and I can keep my cholesterol down. I also stay out of stores that cater almost exclusively to that lifestyle (I avoid Wal-Mart and K-mart like the plague as a rule) and I tend to let corporate management know why. I usually plan my vacations around times when kids are in school. Although I remain very friendly with all members of my family, I do not usually attend large family functions, because my family is rife with examples of poor parenting. My family is well aware of my feelings about poor parenting, and are gracious enough not to push the point. They are also welcome anytime to come to my large, well-kept house - Which I easily afford by NOT having children. Some of these may seem extreme steps, but they are necessary to maintain a quiet and peaceful balance in my life - One that some people made the choice to give up by having children and disciplining them poorly. __________________ Louisiana: We're Not ALL Drunken Cajun Wackos, But That's Our Tourism Campaign

07-17-2003, 06:03 AM	#47 (permalink)
sexymama My own person -- his by choice Location: Lebell's arms	Cybermike -- have your parents go to loveandlogic.com and look thro the materials. There are some excellent vidios/audios/books on raising the difficult child! The key is a willingness to learn and follow thro. Good luck to them and you. __________________ If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

07-26-2003, 08:03 PM	#49 (permalink)
grayman you can't see me Location: Illinois	I have two daughters who are 7 and 4 and I have worked very hard to make them understand that misbehaving in public is unacceptable. If they misbehave, they are removed from the situation, which is almost never what they want. If this is a negative for me, i.e., getting my dinner to go, then that is a sacrifice I have chosen to make by choosing to be a parent. It works surprisingly well, I have very few problems with them. __________________ That's right - I'm a guy in a suit eating a Blizzard. F U.

07-14-2003, 06:04 AM	#41 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	The worst my aprents did to discipline me was a slap on the back of the hand. It hurts like hell for a minute, then fades without leaving a mark, and also without causing any damage. If I got a slap, I straightened out really quickly. I think that some sort of physical punishment like that is perfectly fine, as long as the parents don't get carried away and start beating. It's basic conditioning. Kid acts up, parent threatens to slap, kid doesn't stop, parent slaps. After the first few times, the kid should learn what comes after threatening, and stop then.

07-18-2003, 12:33 AM	#48 (permalink)
themikkerman Upright Location: simi valley	I wanted to share my childhood with you guys, my siblings and I were some of the best behaved kids in town, everywhere we went people would compliment my parents on "what well behaved kids you have". We were that way for one reason and one reason only, my father put the fear of not God but the fear of his own wrath into us which looking back now made us well behaved. On the other hand, I can't think of one day in my entire childhood that I was happy my father was home. The beatings we endured far out weigh the chance for any happy memories. Today I have two beautiful little girls whom I have never raised a hand to, two little girls who run up to me every day I come home and throw their little arms around me saying daddy daddy, I missed you today. That friends to me is worth more than any material thing or anything else for that matter in this entire world. I also receive compliments as to how well behaved they are. I haven't talked to my Dad in many years, but if I did I would have to thank him for the lesson on how not to raise your kids. Thanks TFP for letting me vent alittle. I hope you all have as good a time with your kids as I do. If your not than you need to take a step back and try to figure out why it is your not.

07-26-2003, 09:16 PM	#50 (permalink)
obediah Crazy	Hitting your kid is almost always a cop out. One possible exception is to put fear into children too young to reason yet (in the street, grabbing hot pan etc), and the reasoning behind that isn't to punish but to prevent a more severe injury. Anyway, back to the cop out. For most children, consistent non-corporal punishment is just as corrective, it just takes a bit longer. Hitting is of course a lot easier, than establishing and sticking to other forms of punishment. One real danger of hitting is that it teaches your child that the way to control other people is to hit them. Adults that were spanked as kids spank their kids, and I imagine are also much more likely to "spank" others - wives, strangers, etc. Back in the "good old days" when fathers laid down the law with children, spousal abuse was a lot more accepted as well. One big problem I (and many others) have with hitting children is that it has to be about disciplining the child, and not about releasing frustration. When I see a child misbehave, and a parent tell them to stop, and then give them an all-business smack it doesn't really bother me. But when I see a kid and parent having a battle of the wills, and the parent finally lets loose out of frustration, then I can't help but think they have no business having children. It's not about how hard you hit your kid, it's about the expression on your face, the thought in your mind, it's the difference between being a parent and a bully. Finally, while hitting is a cop out, if controlled it's still much better than nothing. While all those people that turned out "fine" after being spanked as a child, may have turned out even better with more expressive parents, they probably would have turned out much worse without either.

07-26-2003, 09:26 PM	#51 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	Okay, you have a point. However, it's the bit about "expressive parents" which is key: lots of people were raised by parents from the left side of the curve, or by parents who were not creative, or by parents who couldn't really speak to their kids well. Or a combination of the above. Discipline of some sort needs to be used whether or not it's optimal, because the lack of it is worse.

07-27-2003, 08:00 AM	#54 (permalink)
Trilidon Tilted	Paintball gun with sniper scope added - hiding in the womens garments section -annoying child in macy's skull - crying You get the picture

07-27-2003, 03:06 PM	#55 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	If I cannot calm one of my two kids down, they get removed from the scene by me. Take em out of the restaurant, store, whatever. We go outside and they get a talking to until they calm down. I cannot stand it when a 'parent', and I use the term loosely, allows a child to shriek. Makes those of us who have kids and know how to handle them look bad.

12-10-2004, 07:58 AM	#56 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	It's been several months since I had a good rant about kids in restaurants, so I figure I'm overdue. Last night, my beautiful bride and I decided to eat at our local O'Charley's. There is a server there who is particularly excellent, and we like their salads and burgers. But first, we had to clear the hostess hurdle. What in God's wide world would lead a hostess to believe that a childless couple would want to sit in the booster-seat section? There was a small area toward the back that had a railing around it and several tables inside the railing. We'd never sat there before, so it seemed kind of cool at first. By the time we left, every other blessed table in our section had at least one booster seat with the obligatory screaming children in tow. This was clearly the toddler section, because they didn't seat these families at any of the other available tables; they simply herded all of them straight to us, as if drawn there by some curse. There is a damn good reason why my wife and I don't eat at Chuck E. Cheese; we don't WANT to eat with children. We want to enjoy ourselves at a nice dinner out. Hostesses: Don't assume everybody loves children at dinner time. My wife and I love kids, and I taught elementary school for 12 years, but I DON'T want to eat with them. Parents: Recognize that if you take your kids out to eat in public, this would be a MARVELOUS opportunity to teach then how to behave in public. Let them explore themselves and their vocal ranges inside your home, NOT at the table next to me. What would happen to me if I started making deafening chimpanzee noises inside a restaurant? Then why should kids be allowed to do it? __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed. Last edited by warrrreagl; 12-11-2004 at 04:56 AM..

12-10-2004, 08:06 AM	#57 (permalink)
Samalie Tilted Location: Edmonton, Canada	I dunno - when I take my kids to a restaurant, they shut the fuck up (well, they are forced to maintain a quiet conversational voice & not terrorize the place) As to the screaming baby - well, honestly, it just happens sometimes. The most well behaved baby, wether slighltly ill, teething, etc can become a monster. I've had a few crying babies around me in restaurants and I usually smile at the parents, tell em I understand - cause I find oftentimes when mom & dad relax & stop worrying about the screamer, they're actually more successful at stopping said screamer. Now movie theatres.....grrrrr......I had 2 good babies who would sleep through a movie and never bother anyone, and we took them all the time.....my son....damn....no movies for him, he can't shut up. But at least I have the courtesy to recognize he's a movie screamer & leave him at home. My 1 request - baby in a theatre - dont scowl at us & act like assholes until the baby is a problem. Then you're within your right to bitch, but until then....shut the fuck up. I've had people (with my first 2 kids) bitch me out when I brought my babies into the theatre, only to eat mud & apologize for being pricks after the movie ended without a peep from my kids. Oh, and speaking of movie theatres, for the love of god fucking teach your kids to shut the fuck up during the movie, or dont be suprised if I get the manager to kick your fucking sorry asses out. Thankyouverymuch. Last edited by Samalie; 12-10-2004 at 08:33 AM..

12-10-2004, 08:25 AM	#58 (permalink)
bigoldalphamale Loser	as a rule...any place that serves a very good steak, lobster, and nice wines should NOT be patronized by children, or at the very least, babies. if you go to a common chain of family restaurants like applebees, bennigans, ocharleys, chilis, ect... you really have no right to bitch about kids and babies. they are "family" establishments. the higher end restaurants, which do not so label themselves as family establishments, do generally discourage babies and kids. i know first hand, as i worked at a "$250 dinner for two" place during college. anyone that showed up with kids or babies were made to wait a ridiculous amount of time for a table. sometimes pushing up on two hours, thereby discouraging continued patronage. also, if a customer complained about the offending child's/baby's behavior, our manager would ask the baby wielding couple to relocate to another part of the restaurant...even in mid-meal. so there, as a rule...unless its clearly a family restaurant...dont bring your damned kids. thanks.

12-10-2004, 08:29 AM	#59 (permalink)
Lak Insane Location: New Zealand	Ok so I dont have kids but I have siblings who are much younger than me and I like to observe my own parents techniques (kinda odd? maybe...) I think that simply following through with threats of punishment is a most excellent concept. However I think there is a more direct approach - no warning phase. Instead of "quit being rowdy or you'll go to the car", how about "you're being rowdy, so get to the car!". Then theres no grace period, and if punishment comes without warning, children are more likely to be actively on guard for situations in which they might be punished again without warning - in other words, they behave. I think it's a cool idea. Parent's comments? Anyone tried this? __________________ ignorance really is bliss.

12-10-2004, 08:57 PM	#60 (permalink)
Swirlie Tilted Location: Alberta	So if a dog is barking in the neighbourhood, do you get annoyed? My guess is yes. I don;t see much of a difference here. I love children... can't wait to have my own. I, however, I fear I am going to be a very bad parent because I think I am going to be overly strict. My parents weren't - but my experiences over the last 15 years of being an "adult" lead me to believe that compared to what I see out there, including the majority of my friends who have children now, I will be an overly strict parent. My parents taught me very early on that respecting others, and their property was paramount - and I paid the price if I didn't show that respect - open hands to the ass... it stung... even more so if my friends saw it. My children WILL (and I guarantee this) sit at their table in a restaurant. They will NOT make faces at the surrounding patrons. If they do - we leave. I have no tolerance for parents who allow their children to misbehave in public. I WILL embarass my children in public should they decide they want to embarass me there. Society today is in trouble because of a lack of discipline... I understand completely the troubles of both parents being forced to work, and not having enough time to spend with their children. I still don't believe, however, that this is a valid excuse for the 10, 11, and 12 year old children I see running the streets, telling me to F off when I get angry at the for throwing snowballs at my truck, and laughing at me when I ask for their parents number so I can inform them of what they are doing... or worse yet - them giving it to me, and having the parent tell me to F off when I do inform them of it. Parents need to start (again) taking responsibility for their children...

12-10-2004, 09:44 PM	#61 (permalink)
yellowchef Addict Location: Shalimar, FL	Todays parents are sometimes too busy to discipline. They leave their kids in front of the idiot box to learn how to behave. I've never seen such a sheep-ish mentality as I see in the children of today. Like Chris Rock said its not nice to see someone taking responsibility of their kids, thats your JOB! Have you seen the way kids on TV act? Have you seen the way (sorry if I offend anyone) but rich parents who try too hard to be PC and befriend their children instead of being an authority figure. I don't and I refuse to understand why its ok for your 8 year old to run up and down the aisle of the grocery store, knock things off the shelf and just annoy the rest of the customers. I don't think spanking is wrong either, I misbehaved a FEW times and well when that hand hit my ass I figured it out and it NEVER happened again. I do agree that every child is a reflection of their parents and the parenting skills of said parents. If at 16 your kid is running amok, true you may not have total control but I know you can ground them, MONITOR their every move, and MAKE SURE they're where they need to be at all times. I know when I was probably 6 or 7 I threw a tantrum in the mall and got my ass spanked hardcore. One end of the mall to the other and out to the boonies to the car. It didnt end there, when I got home I was sent to my room..out came the TV, games, and my 3 toy chests(yes I had 3 3'x10' toy chests my dad made) and I was pretty much forced to sit there for 3 days. I could read, but you know.. I cant cause much chaos reading. I soon figured out it was a bad idea to throw a tantrum. more soon Im tired

12-11-2004, 07:13 AM	#63 (permalink)
LIMilf Crazy	This is my number one pet peeve. When Im sitting down for a nice meal I hear some child/ren screaming their little heads off. It just ruins everything, but you can't blame the kids, its all the parents fault. That commercial for Nanny 911 makes me want to blow my head off. __________________ My goal is to be rookie of the year...

12-13-2004, 07:58 AM	#67 (permalink)
william Psycho	Parenting isn't easy? Duh - ask your mother how easy it was. This is a rant that should be given more respect. Kids cry for a reason, more often than not (when out in public)they're tired. I see it all of the time in the mall. Little bastards screaming his head off, and mom's on the phone making her way to the food court (SUPERSIZE ME). Todays world is too much about ME. If you want to see parents that care, look outside - they're there. They just care enough about their kids to not subject them to life at such an early age.

12-13-2004, 10:11 AM	#68 (permalink)
Antikarma Psycho Location: Yellowknife, NWT	I dunno, I won't respond to a lot of this because I find a lot of the comments to be uninformed speculation about a topic they know nothing of and only feel the need to comment because its a 30 second inconvenience in their lives. To me it seems a lot like the people who watch CSI and find themselves an authority on policing tactics. "Because I was once a child, or saw someone with a child, I must know better than THOSE parents because their child is screaming" To those who wanted to stick to the topic, children screaming in public, I say this; I share your pain, but its situational. I've had my daughters both start crying in a restaurant. They were swiftly removed from the scene. But when I was working from home and would go shopping and my daughter started crying, I'm sorry but I'm not going to put everything down, leave, go home, come back and restart everything so you can peruse the frozen peas section in silence. And more likely than not, my child's screaming is less painful than the music they're piping in. Yes, I will make my child the absolute focus of attention to be sure that she stops as soon as possible, but your inconvenience is the last thing on my mind at that exact point in time, thank you very much. That being said, yes, we do plan ahead. I'm not going to take my 3 year old to a fancy restaurant or a movie because I know that the chance is there, however minute, that my child COULD inconvenience others. And the aforementioned places are somewhere where children are not expected to be (as opposed to say, that supermarket I was talking about) And to touch on another topic, I'll play devil's advocate. I was spanked. Hell I got the leather belt as a child. And believe it or not, I do not feel the urge to murder innocent women on the street or even to fight. Heck I haven't been in a fight since grade ten. And even WORSE, I spank my kids. Good lord no. And no its not an abusive battering with a phone book to hide the bruising, its one swift spanking to the hand. They know when its coming, and they hate it. Funny, my two daughters are angels that rarely if EVER require this, and I get comments all the time about how well behaved my children are. Spanking, when used RESPONSIVELY and not in anger, is a useful tool in a parent's arsenal to be sure that their children. And should you choose not to spank, that is wonderful, but do not stand opn a pulpit and speak that spanking causes undo aggression. I would argue that its not spanking, its the manner in which some spankings are administered. /steps off pulpit and duly awaits the flame war and threatening emails. __________________ "Whoever you are, go out into the evening, leaving your room, of which you know each bit; your house is the last before the infinite, whoever you are."

12-13-2004, 10:40 AM	#69 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	I'm not a parent. I have no desire to be one because I have absolutely zero patience. However, I have common sense, an attribute that seems to be missing in a lot of parents these days. I cannot tell you how many flights I am on in the course of a year (i travel 45 + weeks a year) at least 1/2 those flights I'm seated in front of a child (not a baby) that is so poorly behaved, I want to use the emergency exit. If my seat isn't being kicked, then the tray table is being played with, or they are fussing over something. Yes, I have no patience, and I understand that being trapped in a seat for 3 hours is the suckage. It's not the kids fault. It's the parents fault for not taking along enough stuff to keep said child entertained. Most recently, the flight attendent asked the parent of a squirmy whiney child if it wanted an activity book, the mother flat out said no, the kid was fine as it proceeded to kick my chair over and over and over again. There was a hotel I was in recently, who I guess mom and dad wanted some alone time. So they sent the kids (2 of them, under the age of 7) out into the hallway to play. This was about 9pm, and these hellions were running up and down the hallway yelling and screaming. Kids aren't at fault, it's the parents fault. Ihave a beautiful blonde haired, blue eyed, angelic looking niece (I think she's 7) I know she's demon spawn. This child has thrown temper tantrums in the mall, my sister and her family have been asked to leave a family restaurant and never return because of this child, they have been asked to leave an ice cream place and never return because of this child. Demon spawn is spoiled rotten and knows she can get her own way by throwing a tantrum, why -- because my sister gets embarassed at DS's episodes and will do anything to shut them up. Last year, my parents were babysitting for DS and her siblings, I was over assisting, I was playing chess with my young nephew when DS throws a tantrum over something. Laying on the floor, kicking screaming, fake crying, no one came to her rescue. At one point she stops gets up, walks over to wehre her brother and I were, and asks Isn't anyone paying attention to me? Her brother said No, and continued playing the game, and looked at me and said she really is a pest isn't she. I said nothing cause I was gonna start laughing. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

12-13-2004, 10:42 AM	#70 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	This thread is a good example of why you SHOULDN'T have kids __________________ I love lamp.