Strange Famous

I have 2 Q's

I know that there is an issue (similar to the one you mentioned in the Jewish thread) with Muslim athlete's fasting during Ramadan... particularly not drinking in daylight.

If a pro athlete (or anyone) competed in Ramadan - during daylight - and was overcome by the heat: should they drink water in the case that they believed they needed to to save their life? Or in the truest adherence to their rules should they face death before breaking fast?

Of course, the other option is that the Muslim athlete doesnt compete in Ramadan - but (in the same way as a Jew refusing to compete on the Shabbat) this would make it virtually impossible for them to be a pro sportsman.

_

In your opinion, is there any religious commandment within the qu'ran that decree's that women should cover up any part of their body in public? Or is this instead merely a social and man-made rule prevalent in many Islamic communities?

(sorry if this has been touched on before, I didnt read the whole thread)

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

ring

Hi, dlish.
I have read that it is difficult to translate the Qur'an into English.

I have a copy translated by Thomas Cleary.
Do you have any recommendations for further reading?

Have you noticed any major changes in the intended meaning of the text,
between the two languages?

dlish

wow, i didnt realise i missed some questions...

ill start with Ring's questions

that's quite a topical question that always seems to pop up.

muslims believe that the Quran is the word of god. unchanged, unadultered. it is not the text itself, but the words that was revealed to Muhammad that is considered holy since the Quran was conveyed to muhammad verbally and didnt come on a table or scribed.

its not that it is difficult to translate the meaning of the verses, but rather the words themselves. this is why you hear muslims saying things like 'the meaning of the Quran' rather than 'translation of the Quran'. this is because muslims believe thats gods' words are perfect in arabic and changing them to any other language loses its meaning.

how so you ask?

arabic is a rich language. so rich and descriptive in fact its not uncommon that that some words have 20, 50 and even 200 different synonyms and describing words.

so when someone decides to translate the Quran into english as a purely textural reference and purely from a literal meaning then that persons' going to run into problems unless they had a high command of the arabic language, the reasons for the revelation, as well as hadith and arabic and islamic history.

muslims believe that to translate the actual words themselves are difficult, but that it is possible to convey the message or meaning of those words.

I have not read the Thomas Cleary translation, so i cant really comment on it.

By far the most popular translation out there bar none is the Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation called 'The meaning of the Holy Quran'. its the equivelant of the 'King James version' of the Bible, if i can draw that parallel.

Of the western translators, Marmaduke Pickthall', 'The Glorious Qu'ran' is easily one of the most popular around, especially in the muslim world.

from the different translations around, there isnt a change in meaning, bit rather the choice of words is interesting. Translations by non-muslims usually paint a harsher picture of the Quran. Usually, if there was a choice of words, the non muslims translators and commentators would use the harsher translation, whereas the muslim translation to english is more closer to its intended meaning.


i hope that made sense?


edit----

here is what Marmaduke Pickthall had to say about the translation of the Quran. it's pretty much what i said, except more elegantly.


"... The Qur'an cannot be translated. ...The book is here rendered almost literally and every effort has been made to choose befitting language. But the result is not the Glorious Qur'an, that inimitable symphony, the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy. It is only an attempt to present the meaning of the Qur'an-and peradventure something of the charm in English. It can never take the place of the Qur'an in Arabic, nor is it meant to do so..." [Marmaduke Pickthall, 1930]

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ring

Translating the meaning/intent of God's communications into any of mankind's languages
would be a trial I imagine.
I do, and do not understand
what you mean by separating the terms 'words' and 'text.'

Perhaps it's like trying to pin down something as delicate as a butterfly's wing.
The more and more it's handled, it dissolves.

I suppose it's somewhat akin to having a large variety of words
that attempt to describe the many different shades and textures of snow,
where snow is thee enviroment.

How indeed could we scribe our own body language/eye contact/ pheromone shiftings?

I wonder if my 50 year old brain could learn Arabic. I would hope so.

As an aside/ I always thought I was dumb trying to learn math as a youngster in the USA.
The Iranian mathematics teacher I was blessed to have,
during an apprenticeship program
for tool and die making, had the ability to really...teach/translate/infuse/
/pull the veil back/ open the door/ to the gift of mathematics.
It was a beautiful awakening lightbulb happening,
for both the teacher & the student.

I remember this being touched upon somewhere earlier in this thread.

dlish

ok, you're definately reading too much into it..

ok a little insight..

muslims usually see it that god had intended his message in arabic because of its perfect message for that purpose in that language. on its arabic form it is unadulterated. in any other language it is not.

the perfect example

Abdulla Yusuf Ali - the holy quran
Marmaduke Pickthall - the glorious quran

same meaning as a whole, but different words to describe the message

generally the most popular arabic word used to describe the quran is 'al quran al kareem'. if you translate it literally it means 'the generous quran'.

the two translators have opted to use other words, because the word 'generous' isnt the correct meaning. one using the term holy (in arabic qudsi, or mouqadas) the other using the word glorious (in arabic majeed) to get their intended message across.

however, in arabic the words remain unchanged and will always remain the same regardless of the translation. any translation of the arabic text is only a rendition of the original text and meaning.

have i confused you some more?

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loquitur

dlish, I have tried reading the Qur'an (in English, of course) a few times and found it impossible. The first time I started with al-Baqra and began to read the suras serially. It was impossible to follow. Then a friend of mine (lapsed Muslim) suggested that I start at the back and read from the last suras forward. That was slightly better, but still it was very difficult to follow. Much of it needs context and explanation so that you can tell which revelation came when and in which context, which you can't get just from reading the revelations themselves. Also, there is no linearity to the text. It jumps all over the place, repeats, diverts, etc etc etc. It's not a narrative of any kind that Western readers are used to.

That being said, from my very limited knowledge of semitic languages I can see that the poetic structure is fabulous, that the linguistic usages are innovative and vivid, and that there is a certain "music" to the text. I don't speak or read Arabic (though I'm considering getting Rosetta Stone to learn) so I can't really appreciate it. I wonder how the early Muslims were able to persuade so many people about how fabulous their new religion was if those people couldn't really appreciate the Arabic.

Craven Morehead

Interesting question. What percentage of Muslims actually speak Arabic?

dlish

loq - you're right. for someone to pick up the quran and expect to be reading a novel or narrative doesnt really know what they're in for.

The quran can be described as a poetic set of instructions based around biblical narratives and muhammads' life.

To fullly appreciate the meaning of the Quran, you really do need to understand the reasons for the injunctions contained within it. It's also important to know why those revelations took place to begin with and understand Muhammads role in those revelations. There are thousands of volumes of books on this very topic, but i could probably source a concise book to help if you want me to.

as for the order in which it is read, there is no order. It wasnt revealed from the first sura first and the last sura last. Though it is loosely organised in a way that the shorter suras are at the end, and people comprehend these better because they are short and to the point.

as for the early arabs. well they thought that the Quran was a form of sorcery. Historically, the arabs were fond of poetry; and they still are to this day. The arabic language was always rich because of this. The arabs would hold poetry competitions to see how was the best poet of his tribe, area etc. so when the quran came they were able to grasp it quite easily. They were so surprised by its richness that they couldnt believe that anyone would come up with something like this. so the opponents of Muhammad would accuse him of sorcery because of the strong poetic nature of the Quran.



craven - do you mean what percentage of muslims speak arabic? or what percentage are arabs?

the estimates have that arabs are about 10-15% of the muslim population. of those arabs there are many christian arabs, like the orthodox and maronite christians in Lebanon, and the coptic christians in Egypt.

there are also non arabs that speak arabic, like turks that live close to the border with syria, assyrians who are chritians that live Iraq etc.

Then you have the africans who are techinically 'african' but speak arabic as their first language - like egyptians, moroccans, algerians, libyans, somalis etc.

obviously the further you are away from arabia, the less arabic that is spoken in the muslim world.

so the % could be a lot higher if you take the africans into consideration.


just to add to this. dont forget that iranians are not considered arabs and dont speak arabic. just thought i'd throw that in

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Craven Morehead

Thanks, dlish. It was more of a rhetorical question. It sounds as if in order to fully appreciate the quran, one should understand the Arabic language.

dlish

yeah i should have picked that up.

there are arabs (especially those that live outside the middle east) that have little command over the arabic language. But i have also met non arabs - indonesians, turks and anglo saxons that speak it better than i do. to understand the Quran at a basic and literary level you need a reasonable level of arabic. if you wanted to really delve into it, it would take years of research. its easy to learn, but hard to master; if that makes sense.

but yeah like you said, you do need to know some arabic, and the history behind what you are reading to fully grasp the context.


On the topic of watering down of the arabic language, this becoming a major concern especially with the introduction of english words into the arabic language as a result of technology. words like 'computer' for example have no equivelant in the arabic language, so there's a current debate on the future of the arabic language with all the new vocabulary. The argument for the traditionalists is that the Quran being the guide and source for the muslim world is the saviour of the arabic language. you'll find that the emphasis of the arabic language in saudi si so much more than anywhere else in the arab world. no street signs are in english. this is quite the opposite in dubai where more things are in english than arabic. in fact the level of arabic here i find it quite low for an arabic speaking country

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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
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loquitur

Dlish, in Hebrew a computer is "mahshev", from HShV, "thinking". I know Arabic works off three-letter roots like Aramaic and Hebrew do, so the word for "thinking" in Arabic should be manipulable that way. Or did they do some horrid thing like spell "kahmbyootehr" in Arabic?

dlish

exactly! take your pick...

kahmbyooter
electooniciyeh
mazerboord

its prety tough speaking tech-speak without referring to it in english. has hebrew come up with an equivelent for all its technology words?

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
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loquitur

Modern Hebrew is a mishmash of the classical language, some updated words (like mahshev that I mentioned before) and borrowings from all over the place (Sephardic immigrants brought Arabic with them, the Russians brought Russian and Yiddish, the Americans brought English, etc etc etc). I don't know how much techspeak is in adapted hebrew and how much is loanwords from English, but I have a couple of Israeli clients who are in the tech business, so next time I speak to them I'll ask. I know that "software" or "program" is "tochna", which is a hebrew word sharing a root with "schedule" or "preparation". But then there are horrid things like "eenformatzia" or "televeezia." Or "sveder" (made of wool, keeps you warm) or "frizr" (keeps food frozen).

Noor

Hi Dlish,

I don't know if you're still answering questions, but I hope you are.

I've been researching about this for a while, and I can't believe it's so difficult to find out, but maybe you can help me:

My father is from Iran, and he has told me that: In either Sunni or Shi'a Islam (I think he said Sunni), a person cannot be an Imam without being a Sayyid (descendant of Prophet Muhammad). So, for example, the father of Nadir Shah's name was Imam Muhammad Quli Beg Khan; therefore, he must have been a Sayyid (making Nadir Shah a Sayyid also, as well as all of his descendants). Can you confirm this or something like this to be true?

I know it is strange and specific, but it is important to me to find the answer to this. If you do not know, perhaps you can direct me to a place where I can find out, or someone else I could ask? Thanks very much.