Halanna

Thank you for taking your time to answer everyone's questions, including my own.

I have one more, and it's more curiosity than serious:

Isn't it unbelievably hot for women to walk around in all that clothing? I have seem a very few muslim women "out and about" in what I assume traditional dress, clothing to the floor, to the wrists, heads and faces covered and geez, I'm in Florida. For the heat index to be 102 and 85% humidity is not unusual. For me to wear a tank top and shorts the heat is oppressive. I can't begin to imagine how they wear all that clothing.

I've seen women out together, but I didn't see men with them. Am I confusing my religions? I thought there was something that a woman couldn't go out without a male member of their family as an escort.

dlish

Craven,

in reference to your question in post #21 and my subsequent reply in post #34, i came across this video this evening which i find quite timely...

let me know what you think. i was pretty close i think!

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dlish

i ask myself the same question. muslims historians have been mulling over this for many years.

religious muslims' answer to your question would be that they strayed far from the religion, and that in the golden era of islam, when muslims followed it closely, they were rewarded with the bounty of knowledge. their quest to re-kindle this golden age is to go back to following islam closely.

secular muslims' answer would be that the golden era was because muslims were open minded and were willing to question and interpret everything that came to them, much different to what is happening in this day and age. that age of openess hasnt really re-appeared ever since.

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jewels

Why do some Muslims forget about koala bears?

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Leto

I think that now is a good time to pose a more difficult and/or sensitive question. I live in a part of Toronto that is close to a medium sized mosque which has been undergoing renovation for a year now. It is almost finished and looks quite impressive, including a minaret (see picture):



Not bad looking eh? Well, the neighbourhood used to be a staunch Italian/Greek mixture, but now has transitioned to a predominantly Pakistani (?) Muslim area, repleat with Halal meat shops, grocers and (some of the best) shawarma joints in town. Not to mention the increasing traffic headaches as the mosque seems to encourage double parking and sudden u-turns of old Toyota Previas at unpredictable times of the day.

So this is leading to the usual issues of transitional neighbourhoods, lack of understanding etc. The number of homes that have given over to the new demographic in the are has been a cause for concern around poperty values, over crowding and ghettoization (in the geographic term).

I have heard discussions, both ad hoc and on talk radio, that there is increasing sentiment here that recent Muslim immigrants are less tolerant than the society that is welcoming them. That the intent of Islam is to eventually overcome the world through propogation.

That local culture will be supplanted by special interest groups lobbying for legal changes to law (eg Ontario looking into allowing sharia law) and even the loss of cultural icons (the christmas tree, hockey arenas etc) to islamic lobbyers. I heard that the gay community in Holland is under retreat from their freedoms due to the increased political power of muslims in that country.

What is your take on the perceptions of Islam in the west, and why is there such a distintion between the west and Islam? Historically I think that the west benefited from the bounty of the golden age of Islamic thought and culture.

I have a feeling that it is less of a problem of religion and more of an issue with the culture of the middle east, southern asian area relative to North America/Europe.

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Leto

sure I can clarify. First, let me explain my context. I was raised United Church which is a fairly broad based populist Protestant denomination in Canada. So my religious education was basically church on Sundays with Sunday school, and learning the Jesus songs/ colouring pictures etc. By the time I was old enough to decide on my own to go, I didn't. So I am only glancingly familiar with the Catholic tradition.

So, about praying for somebody in the afterlife, I understand that Catholics (and Anglicans??) believe that if you go to church and pray for somebody who has died, their soul will benefit. Which is why you always see old Italian widows, all dressed in black, going to church all the time (in my neighbourhood anyway). It's like you can intercede on behalf of somebody's soul.

Your lack of a formal confession is what i view as being similar to Protestantism. I think that with the Reformation, the protestants argued that people would have a direct line to God, and can pray/confess directly to God without haveing to go through a priest/clergy. Maybe there was an influence from Islam in this regard?

As for original sin, I think (and I'm no expert!) that once Adam & Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, all humans were saddled with original sin. I.e., even a baby, when it is born, is born a sinner and requires absolution. Or am I interpreting this incorrectly? At any rate, would not Islam have grandfathered this concept into its traditions as it is an Abrahamic religion?

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dlish

koala bears are kosher

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spindles

Anglicans are protestants - same as Uniting church. It is only Catholicism that uses priests as 'god's representatives on earth' for forgiving sin.

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genuinegirly

Dlish -

I imagine someone with an Australian passport would not deal with this issue, and you don't seem to dress in those picturesque white robes (what is their real name?) while traveling but...
Do you ever feel singled-out when passing through airport security?

You seem to travel a lot between Australia and Dubai (and elsewhere!).

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ItWasMe

Thank you Dlish for starting this thread. Very interesting.

I have a couple of questions about the 5 daily prayers, and prayer rugs. I hope they haven't been asked before; I did look but might have missed them.

Are the 5 prayers random? (time of day and what Muslims pray about) Or are they structured with prayer #1 about x, prayer #2 about y, prayer #3 about z, etc.? I know some Christians like to recite the 'Lord's Prayer' at the end of, or instead of, prayers made at large gatherings. Even though it really isn't required. Anything like this? Is there a minimum time required for each prayer?

About the prayer rugs. (Hubby sent some rugs back from Afghanistan when he was stationed there. Some small ones turned out to be prayer rugs, in various colors and designs. They probably sound like silly questions, but I am curious about the rugs now that we own a few). Are they required? Are they personal items, or can they be shared? Does the design or color have anything to do with the owner's age, marital status, status in society, or anything else I didn't list?

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dlish

my apologies for not posting more often here. i was re-posted back to Abu Dhabi, so my internet access is intermittant and has been curbed significantly.

Leto, since your emails require some time and im currently at work, ill answer those when i get home later tonight. i think that they're great questions.



does this answer your question :P







in all seriousness, i think ive got it lucky that i do have an aussie passport. it allows me to get to anywhere i want with relative ease. i have had problems at airports though, where ive been searched.

ive been 'randomly selected' twice in Sydney where they test your luggage for explosives, and ive been tested in Bruneii for drugs.

i have only travelled in robes in an airport to Yemen, but that is all. every other place i travel in cargo pants and a t-shirt and have had no problems.

i am unsure of the randomness of my testing, but with an arabic name, i expect to be questioned. not that it makes it right, but i dont get my hopes up. with all the talk about AQ recruiting westerners to do their dirty work because of the ease of which they can get into some countries, im not all that fussed since i have nothing to hide. i do have issues with people freaking out and reporting people that look like arabs or muslims, or even hindus.

i have been through JFK airport, and had no problems. i do recall some hindus in turbans were whisked away into another room because they looked 'different'.

the robes have many different names depending on where you come from. in and around lebanon, syria, jordan etc, they are called abaya (yes abaya's nick is named after this!), in pakistan its silwar kameez, here in the UAE its called a dishdasha (dish-dash as the westerners call them). ive only ever worn a dish dash a few times here, sometimes around the house but rarely outside.

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Lucifer

How tolerant is Islam for marrying outside of the religion? Could you (or did you) marry a non-muslim. Would she have to convert? Could she stay as a christian (or whatever)?

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1123, 6536, 5321

dlish

firstly..congrats on the shawarma joint..its not officially a muslim area without a decent shawarma joint...nothing like a decent shawarma at 3am on the way home from a night out...legendary!


although im unsure about the demographics in your area, i can get a gyst of what you;re talking about. we have had similar situations in sydney where different areas get usurped by certain ethnic minorities. some of them muslim, some not. what i do tend to find though is that the 'locals' end up being rubbed up the wrong way, and then make every effort to make life hell (excuse the pun ) for the newcomers. sometimes its the new comers' misunderstanding the new culture, or quite simply ignorance of the status quo in the neighbourhood. irrespective, its still causes some sort of commotion and ruffles feathers in the existing cimmunity.

one thing you need to remember is that a large majority of these people come from poorer countries and have no sense of understanding local customs in terms of what is right and wrong. this is no excuse for anyone to break the law of course.

you will also find that if you have a large contingent from the subcontinent that the level of driving skill will plummet. here in the UAE, we have huge problems with incompetant drivers. many of my workers do their driving tests up to a dozen times before they pass.

as for the double parking, it will probably be worst during the friday prayers. the friday prayers ae considered the most important prayers of the week and are carried out around lunchtime on fridays. Friday prayers for the devout muslims absolutely cannot be missed. during this time, many latecomers attending will double park to make sure they dont miss the prayer which is carried out for about 5 minutes at the end.

we have this issue here in the UAE, but it is widely accepted, and even the police officers double and triple park with the rest of the attendees. it sets a bad example, and so people think its ok to do it on other parts of the word.




the concerns you raise are standard concerns that most western communities have whenever an alien culture is introduced. one such example is an islamic school that tried to set up in a western sydney suburb called camden. campdens' a pretty 'aussie' area, and all of what you mentioned (and more) were brought up as reasons to reject the development applicaton through council. parking, terrorism, etc etc. eventualy the application was knocked back and the school never eventuated. though some of the reasons given would have been valid, a lot of it would have been fear mongering

there is an excellent satirical show called "Little mosque on the Prairie". i think you will find a lot of what you speak about in this show..its well worth the time. i think its canadian too.






islam and the west..how many volumes would you like me to write?

are they concilable? sure..i think you can meet somewhere without the need for clashes. people speak of the clash of civilisations, but i think many people have been able to reconcile their beliefs with the west without the need to rub each other the wrong way. i think im importance is education on both sides of the fence...seconded by mutual respect. with education (secular and religious) people start to see things from the other side.

i guess i can count myself as someone who's managed to reconcile my beliefs with my nationaility. i am however, far from being a perfect muslim, but i am damn proud to be a fair dinkum aussie. i only realised this when i moved to the middle east!

with regards to clashes...there will always be disagreement. islam can co-exist, but its misunderstood. i could elaborate, but this topic is a thread on its own!

---------- Post added at 04:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 AM ----------

islam permits marriage to the 'people of the book', which is essentially christians and jews.

muslim men can marry christian or jewish women, but muslim women must marry muslim men. so a non muslim man must convert to islam to marry a muslim woman. the conversion must be because he believes in the faith and not because he wants to marry the muslim woman.

the reason for this is because the man under islamic law is considered the head of the household and the main breadwinner and if the husband is not a muslim it could cause the woman and the children to comprimise their faith.

no i didnt marry a non muslim. my wife is a lebanese australian like myself.

---------- Post added at 05:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 AM ----------


there are 5 compulsory prayers per day, that have a set structure. the others are not. the 5 prayers are set through the day...

1) dawn
2) midday
3) afternoon
4) sunset
5) evening

for the non structured prayers,you can pray for any reason, and ask for anything (provided it is not forbidden. you cant ask for a big pork roast at the next get together for example). prayer can consist of asking god something, it can be in a ritualised form of prayer like in the youtube video. its up to the individual. but the 5 compulsory ones must be formal.


formal prayer usually comprises of set movements and recitals from the quran. they can be done in a group or on your own. here is a very brief youtube video on it
other non formal prayer might be quiet time and contemplation. but theres other prayers or short sayings that muslims say when they do certain things like sneezing or leaving the house, or getting in a car etc.


as for prayer rugs, rugs are well known throughout the entire silk road from china to persia. rugs and carpets are an important part of everyday life in central asia and turkey. im unsure of the meanings of some rugs, but some have higher meaning than others. it doesnt really have a religious meaning, but rather more of a cultural/status thing. i read a book a few eyars ago called 'the carpet wars' by the auther Christopher Kremmer. one of the best books ive ever read by far!

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Lucifer

After checking out your sexy pic in "right effin now", I've got a question for you. How does Islam deal with homosexuality?

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dlish

haha! umm err..thanks?

now you're hitting the hard questions!

in a nutshell, homosexuality is banned under islamic law. this is a consensus reached by all islamic scholars.

the story of the people of Lot is related in the Quran (and is similar to the Biblical story); also known as the Sodomites. God destroys the city and its inhabitants because of their sin. for those that dont know, the 'people of Lot' (Lut in arabic) were homosexuals.

since islamic law is derived from the Quran, Hadith and Sunnah, many jurists prescribe capital punishment for homosexual acts based on the story of Lot.

however, this is dependant on what country you're in. countries like turkey who are secular democratic nations who happen to be muslim have much softer views on homosexuality than say saudi arabia

most muslim countries although they have punishments for homosexuality, do not prescribe capital punishment if they can avoid it. this includes saudi arabia.

thats in a nutshell. ill be happy to expand if you wish.

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Craven Morehead

Thanks! I really do hope this is the beginning of a change. I'm not sure when it all went wrong. Probably decades ago. Backing the Shah of Iran while at the time was never questioned in the States, was not good for the US. Support of Israel undoubtedly has created a chasm. And there's dozens of other examples. In spite of all this I sincerely hope there will be peace and acceptance amongst the Islamic world and the US - from both sides. What you're doing here is just as important as Obama's speeches. You would be a credit to any religion. Thanks for doing this, my friend.

dlish

thanks craven, i try and answer it as honest as possible. of course anyone is welcome to challenge my view. in fact, i want TFPers to do just that! its not a one way street here, and im not here to lecture nor convert. so ask away.

with regards to you statement, well you need to ask yourself when did the US actually come onto the radar of islamic fundamentalists?

i personally dont think the US played a major role in world political affairs where they asserted their presence until after the second world war. so up until 1945, they were never a target.

i think with their wanton support for the state of israel was what set it off, along with Britains double dealing when it came to the whole sykes picot agreement and the balfour declaration. the arabs and muslims felt short changed in favour of the more affluent jews who were more of an interest to both the US and the UK.

from there on in, i think the feelinsg of muslims world wide changed with the support of israel in the six day war, the yom kippur war as well as the military support and weapons training and aide that the US provided to Israel.

without this turning into a political discussion (but then again, its hard to seperate religion and politics - especially in the middle east), the arabs and muslims felt like they had been left out in the lurk.

obamas' olive branch has some hope. this may be the fresh change that we need, but arabs and muslims are weary purely because of the fact that base on history, things havent fallen their way when it came down to the question of israel or the question of a seperate homelad for the palestinians. i think if this is solves, we've come a long way to solving it. the rhetoric has changed, so arabs are more hopeful of a different light. i can see that in the daily newspapers and of the way people speak of Obama here. The arab street is gathering a more concilitory tone. an example of this would be the recent lebanese elections. the people voted against the more powerful hezbollah because they didnt want to go back through the days of civil war. they elected a pro-american candidate, so im seeing positive signs ahead

in saying this, lets not forget the nutjobs in all corners - the muslims, the arabs, the jews, the israelis, the americans that'd love to see this derail so they can say 'i told you so'.

OBL's gripe with the US was in the early ninties if i recall correctly. his call then wasnt that he wanted to slay the infidels. its was having the US based on islamic/holy lands which were propping and supporting an authotarian regime.

do i see a resolution to the animosity? yes and no. i think that if the americans can show they the arabs are being dealt a fair deal, then it would help. one thing that needs to happen is a grass roots change. education is key, as is aide and reduction in poverty. the lack of one, or all, will only breed resentment and ignorant behaviour towards anything western.

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Giant Hamburger

Is the use of the term Saracen considered offensive?

dlish

only if the context you say it in implies ignorance.

it was originally used for a nomadic tribe in arabia, but then became synonymous with the word muslim.

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stonedalone

I have a Muslim friend who is originally from Albania. Once we got on the topic of his sister and I asked him what her name was and he said she didn't have one. Is this a Muslim thing, or are you unfamiliar with this practice? If it is a Muslim thing do the women in his family really not have names or will he just not tell me their names.

dlish

thats a load of baloney dude.

my sisters got a name, but i wont tell you because i dont know you well enough.

maybe thats also the case with your friend? did you just meet the guy, or are you guys best friends?

sometimes muslim men can be very defensive of their women. its quite common here in the gulf to go to an arabs' place and visit the family without actually seeing the women. the men have their own visting quarters, and women have their own.

i have been in houses like this here in the UAE as well as some extremely devout muslims in australia. im a stranger to them, and i take no offence to it. although i do find that here in the gulf, its not done out of religious piety, but rather than custom.

but yes, she's got a name, theres just a reason why he wont tell you.

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Tully Mars

They do not prescribe capital punishment if they can avoid it? There are situations where it would be unavoidable?

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dlish

tully - political and western pressure.

it's also why iran i believe hasnt crushed its political opposition just yet. the iron fist is clenched but they havent used it like people'd expect them to.

the only muslim government that really didnt care about how it was percieved was the taliban, because basically they had nothing to lose

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dlish

Thought i'd bump this thread seeing that the islamic holy month of Ramadan is here.

Happy to take any questions TFPers may have on Ramadan or any other topics

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spindles

I am going to see the bulldogs play footy on Sunday afternoon. For those wondering where I'm going with this, it is the last season home game for the team's high profile Muslim, Hazem El Masri. Given Ramadan is on atm, the rules of fasting mean no food or drink between sun rise and sun set.

Given a 3pm kickoff, he won't have had anything to eat or drink for several hours and playing football at this level must be quite draining.

Are there any special dispensations given if you *have to* exert yourself heavily or do you just need to suck it up?

Assuming no special dispensations, how would you go about preparing for a physically taxing day?

I thought I'd add a wikipedia link for Hazem for anyone else interested (I'm 100% sure dlish knows who he is):
Hazem El Masri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Ananas

Hi,
Although you are not from Afghanistan, I was wondering if you have seen the movie "The Kite Runner" or read the book of the same name? What were your initial thoughts?

During Ramadan is the giving of foods or other charity something that is done on a daily basis or do you select one family to help?

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dlish

do i know who Hazem El Masri is???

ive met Hazem on no less than 40-50 times. He is close friends with my cousin, and knows many of my friends very well. We have similar circles. In fact another cousin of my toured with hazem whilst playing for Lebanon a few years back. The lebanese community in Sydney is quite small when you think that everyone is separated within a degree or two.

with regards to his fasting during playing, Hazem has done this for years. There are numerous sports stars who happen to do this, many that i recall played in the NBA.

There has been many debates within the muslim world with regards to professional muslim sports stars fasting during Ramadan. Most recently this week where an egyptian soccer team were exempt via a fatwa from Egypts religious institutions, but the players refused to take up the option.
Egypt footballers exempt from Ramadan fast, Egypt Football - Maktoob Business

the current argument as it stands, is that as a professional player, this is your only means of making money, and if fasting is going to be detrimental to your line of work, or dangerous, than an exemption can be made. However, knowing Hazem, he will be fasting.

For those that intent on fasting, preparation does need to be made. obviously hydration is of utmost importance, as is diet. The sydney winter sunrise is about 5am, and sunset is at 5:30pm, so he'd have gone without water or food for a good 12.5 hours by the time he breaks his fast. The bulldogs would have provided him with a dietitian to support him during Ramadan. but since she-lish is a dietitian, i can tell you that he'd be subscribed with foods that contain slow release energy so that his energy levels stay high throughout the day. he'd be loading his energy levels from a few days prior at least. His training however would most likely be at night, with probably lights training runs with his team mates.

If he feels the need to break his fast because he feels weak or lightheaded during the game, then he is permitted to break the fast and make up for the day after Ramadan. In saying that, when i was a kid as school, i would run or walk to school and back, play rugby or basketball during recess and lunch, swim for 2 hours after school and then go to track training for 2-3 hours almost on a daily basis. so an 80 minute game is do-able. so as a professional athlete, im sure he (and the bulldogs) would have made a contingency plan in preparation for Ramadan.

i wish Hazem the best of luck. He has had a great career. He's been a great ambassador not only to the sport, but as a representative of the lebanese and muslim communities. He is genuinely a 'good bloke' and his work with the youth is well known, and he deserves a big farewell this weekend. This wont be his last game during Ramadan however, since the bulldogs are top of the table and look like title contenders.

---------- Post added at 10:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------

Ananas? you do know that Ananas mean pineapple in arabic... right? or is this just a coincidence?


sorry, back on the topic of the kite runner, no i havent seen the movie nor read the book. my wife she-lish has read both the kite runner and a thousand splendid suns and loved both books, so i have a general idea of the contents.

my thoughts on it? from what ive heard, its a fictional book accounting the atrocities of the taliban in afghanistan.

in defence of the taliban, they were never provided with the support they needed in order to set up any sort of legitimate government. their initial intentions were correct when they first came to power after many social injustices after the fall of the soviets. they just had no idea how to run anything. They were a bunch of religious students who became rag-tag soldiers, most of who were illiterate. what were people expecting? does that justify what they did to women, children and non pashtuns? no, not by any measure.

those are my initial thoughts. if you'd like me to expand, give me some more detail in your questions so i can detail my answers for you.

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Ananas

Thanks for replying Dlish.

No, I did not know Ananas also means pineapple in Arabic, I only knew it meant that in Italian. I have learned something new today, so I say thank you.

I asked about The Kite Runner because that's been my most recent exposure to an Islamic nation, and thought about what you said earlier about homosexuality being a sin. The book/film depicted several assaults against young boys, so I wondered how the Taliban (or any Muslim) would square that with religious injunctions. Knowing that there are always those that will skirt or break the laws I don't want you to think you have to answer for their indiscretions - just curious.

Taliban - they may have been uneducated and eager for revenge, but their zealotry to impose an impossible version of Islam (and continuing efforts today) is I believe what horrifies most Westerners. Why is art a target of destruction (the giant Buddhas that were destroyed)? It almost seems the opposite of what the Spanish did in the 15th century when Ferdinand & Isabella took control of Spain.

How do the various Muslim sects view the West in terms of culture, business, lifestyles, etc.?

Are there many atheists or non-believers in Muslim communities?

What do you do for fun, or enjoyment, and is there anything you'd like to do but are restricted by the tenets of your beliefs?

I know, lots of questions, and I hope you have the patience to answer them. It is very interesting to me.

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spindles

See, now you are just bragging!

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dlish

sorry ananas, i didnt realise i didnt answer this question.

Generally, Ramadan is a month of giving. Charity can be in many ways. it may be being courteous to your neighbours, or even strangers, or helping someone out by taking time out to help them. its not necesary to have a monetary value on things in order to give charity. so in that sense it could be on a daily basis, but its not necesary to fulfill the obligations of fasting.

the giving of money does not necesary mean that you must give to those that you know. it could be a stranger, one particular family, or the local mosque or any numerous charities. it could even be a non-muslim, and what better way to open doors than that! It's really giving money or food to those that need it. those that are poor and are unable to give are exempt from this obligation.

apart from general charity, what you will also find is that many people will pay zakat in the month of Ramadan too. i'm sure i've alluded to this earlier in post #22, but zakat is an obligatory payment that muslims must make every year as part of the 5 pillars of islam. This should be made if you are able to and is around 2.25% of any surplus money you have at that point in time. Usually it is coincided with the month of Ramadan because it's a) a well known time of year and people wont forget to pay the zakat, and b) because good deeds are multiplied in Ramadan, so i guess its a better time to give because you get better reward points if that makes any sense.

edit - ananas, i'll answer the rest of the questions later tonight when i get the chance

spindles - bragging? ppfft! me?? never! did you get your free tickets to the game? NRL is doing a charity giveaway to raise awareness of parkinsons i think.

Mcspindles, just so you know, i bought baby-lish a west tigers jersey, beanie and scarf (my favourite team when i was a kid and pre-super league/merger) when i was in sydney a few weeks ago. i didnt want him becoming a run of the mill bulldogs supporter. its was considered as heresy at my in laws!

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levite

That's quite interesting! I knew that halal slaughter required something akin to what we Jews would call making a blessing beforehand (i.e., the name of God is mentioned in reference to being the Creator, etc.), and I knew that Muslims were also forbidden pork, but I did not know that Islam also forbids the eating of blood, and that the slaughter is supposed to be quick and as painless as possible. Those things are also true of kosher slaughter (sh'khitah), although it sounds like the process of making meat kosher is a bit more elaborate, as we must not only drain the animal of blood in the usual way, but also salt the meat using rock salt, forcing it to drain on a slanted board, then rinsing off the salt with water, and repeating the whole process three times.

Question: can anyone who has been told those rules slaughter an animal and have the resulting meat be halal? I ask because with us Jews, a man must be specially trained to be a shokhet (ritual slaughterer): if an untrained person who slaughters an animal, we are permitted to call the meat kosher if we have to, but generally speaking, it is not done, and the untrained are not permitted to slaughter.

Oh, that reminds me: D, do Muslims have rules about halal eating? I mean, for us Jews, kosher meat is only a part of keeping kosher: we separate all meat from dairy, and are not permitted to mix meat and dairy products at the same meal (let alone in the same dish), we keep separate dishes for meat and for dairy foods, and we often wait a set time between eating meat and dairy. Also, there are a lot more animals we are not permitted to eat than just pigs. A whole lot more. Most of them, really. What about you guys? Just pigs, or anything else? Do you have stuff you can't mix, or other things you're not supposed to eat. I mean, besides alcohol. I know about not drinking alcohol. Although now that I think of it, it was explained to me once that alcohol is forbidden because the Qur'an seeks to prohibit drunkenness. So could Muslims eat a dish that is cooked with wine or brandy, in which the alcohol has cooked off?

So one serious question I've had for a while is this. Islam, like Judaism is a religion of laws. Now, in Judaism, we have developed a number of movements (some might call them sects; we call them movements, since sect sounds divisive) that interpret halakhah (Jewish law) quite differently, resulting in a spectrum of theologies and practices that range from so liberal as to be nearly nonexistent (Reconstructionist and Reform Judaism) to liberal but traditional (Conservative Judaism) to traditional (Modern Orthodoxy) to fanatically conservative (ultra-Orthodoxy). I know that there are movements in Islam that are fanatically conservative, like Wahabism, but are there liberal movements? Is there even the beginning of any kind of movement to interpret and re-interpret Shari'a in progressive, socially liberal ways?

Finally, one last question about practice. In Judaism, we have formalized blessings (single-line liturgical units, which always begin with the Hebrew for "Blessed are you, YHVH our God, King of the Universe..." and then go on to thank or at least mention God's having created something or commanded us to do something) which we say before and after eating, drinking, performing ritual duties, going to the bathroom, seeing marvels of nature, or experiencing other phenomena in the world. So for example, before eating an apple, we make the blessing "Blessed are you, YHVH our God, King of the Universe, who creates the fruit of trees," or when smelling a flower we make the blessing "Blessed are you, YHVH our God, King of the Universe, who creates fragrant plants," or when we light the candles that inaugurate the beginning of the weekly shabbat (sabbath), we make the blessing "Blessed are you, YHVH our God, King of the Universe, who sanctified us with commandments, and commanded us to kindle lights for the shabbat." We have a zillion of these, for everything under the sun, every day. Do you guys have anything similar? Something by which you recall God frequently, something to kick up the everyday with a little holiness? It seems to me like something Muslims would have. Anything?

Thanks for doing this thread, man. It's a real service to your fellows.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

xepherys

Wow levite... that's a whole heaping helping of good questions. Can't wait to see the responses.

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Leto

It also means Pineapple in French, so the whole time I saw your id, I was thinking in the back of my mind.. ah French!... part of a typical Canadian education i suppose.

---------- Post added at 09:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 AM ----------


wow Levite, I think that you need to start your own thread along the same lines. Like, I really am curious about the origins and meanings of these strictures. Are eggs considered to be dairy (as they are to most people I know - why I don't know) ? And if so, the first thing that comes to my mind is that steak & eggs for breakfast is right out.

---------- Post added at 09:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 AM ----------

so dlish, I'll relate an experience that I had yesterday. There may not be a question in here, but may be comment-worthy.

My son (16 years old) goes to a fairly cosmopolitan, inner city high school in Toronto. It is equidistant form government housing (Regent Park - for the locals), exclusive blue-blood establishment (Rosedale - again for the locals) and everything in between. So there is a good mix of socio-economic varieties attending the school. About 50% of the students are of Tamil imigrant, 30% are local Canadian varieties and there is a good mix of carribean, arabic and middle eastern.

well, last evening a group of my son's friend (John - white typical headbanger Canadian, no real religion except Rock music) Fahad (muslim from Dubai) and Siva (Tamil Hindu born in Sri Lanka) are in the back yard jamming on their guitars (well, 2 guitars and a bass).

As I am not sure when they are going to break off and return to their homes for dinner, I ask them if they would like to stay, I could put in an extra pizza to accommodate. All three say that they are good, don't want to eat (being polite I think) But Fahad also said that he was fasting anyway for Ramadan. I still felt like I should provide, as it was getting on to about 7 pm, and the rest of us were already eating a casual dinner.

So I poured a bowl of chips (ketchup flavoured - the kids favourite) and brought it out to the patio. I point blank asked Fahad if he was ok, as he was fasting if I set the chips out for the others. I was feeling like I shouldn't flash food in from of him if he could indulge.

I have to say, I have never met a more polite, respectful kid than Fahad. He stood to address me, greeted me with a handshake and called me Mr. when he did leave, he came into the house (took off his shoes too, which we all do, but kids tend to forget) thanked us for the hospitality.

Now he may have been all Eddie Haskell on me, but somehow I get that this was genuine.

Oh, and for a Muslim kid from Dubai, he can sure produce some quality guitar licks from Rush, Led Zeppelin and the Stones. It was fun to have him in the mix. The whole group of kids was a good dynamic.

Just thought I would relay that cross cultural experience.

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dlish

like i said i did hear about the book and that it contained abuse of young boys. i dont know much more than that. but at the end of the day, just because you wear turban does not make you more or less religious. everyone's human and sin and make mistakes in the same way that those 'of the cloth' are susceptible to sin

its not really art that they attacked. You will find islamic art everywhere throught all the islamic dynasties. it is the notion of idolatory that they attacked. You will find that there are no ikons or idols in mosques that you would see in catholic and orthodox chruches, but rather the mosques are decorated with quranic verses and islamic art.

The Bamiyan buddhas were considered as an abomination to the strict hardliners of the Taliban due to the strict wahhabi ideology they adhered to. howeverm there have been other circumstances in hisory where historic monuments were not destroyed as is the case with the Sphynx in Egypt. One of the companions of prophet Muhammad Amr Bin al Aas who was appointed as governer of egypt after the death of prophet Muhammad didnt touch any of the historic relics in egypt, even though those relics prescribed to idolatory and other gods. so it really does come down to interpretation and education.


depends on which part of the muslim world you speak of. saudi is more of a closed society, next door UAE is more of an accepting and open society where you have a mix of everything and is like living in the west almost. every muslim culture wants to do business with each other and the rest of the world, some bend the rules more than others.

yes. ktsp one of our members here mentioned it above. though the numbers are not as high as in the west. exact numbers would be hard to come by though.

personally, travelling is my past time. you may notice some of my other posts around the board. i also trek and run and play different sports and teach swimming. i dont drink or smoke either. i enjoy what i do and dont feel restricted in what i want to do. i may sound odd as a typical muslim, but i consider myself progressive, and i see no issues with reconciling islam with the west.


happy to answer any questions. its part of my aim to break down barriers between my culture and religion and the rest of the world.

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Leto

In another thread, you made some statements about the immaculate conception with respect to Islam.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...ml#post2695172


How does this square with the view that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet (if I even got that right) I mean how many other prophets got the immaculate treatment?

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And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

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dlish

Jesus' role within islam is that of a prophet like those that came before him. He was given the power of miracles in the same way that others like Moses was given miracles. one of those miracles was his birth, immaculate conception. Many people dont realise that Jesus plays a large role is islamic beliefs, and to deny Jesus is to deny the islamic faith.

no other prophet got the immaculate treatment (unless you want to include Adam onto that list). but we still consider Jesus as a human being who walked the earth like any other human being, except that he was given favours by god to perform miracles and preach His word. The belief that he is God, God incarnate, fully man/fully human etc is foreign to islamic belief. The concept that he died for the sins of man and the Original sin are not part of islamic beliefs either. each man shall be judged on his own actions, and not by the actions of others.

with regards to the belief in the immaculate conception, i've been toying around with the philosophical idea of X & Y chromosomes and what male chromosomes jesus would have had if he was born of a virgin, but it really comes down to a matter of faith vs science. Maybe science can prove things in the future, i dont know. somethings i cannot explain.

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Reese

Christianity has many denominations which have varying amounts commitment involved and disagree about trivial(to me anyways) matters. Catholicism, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian - The list goes on and on. Are there any differences or major disagreements of the faith within Islam or is the faith pretty united in it's beliefs? Obviously, there are extremist as with other religions so there's no need to point that out.

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dlish

wow levite..im going to attempt to answer all your questions.. but i agree, there's so much many of us would wantt o ask that i think it would be prudent to set up your own "Ask a Jew..." thread. i think it would be quite informative and would break down many of the stereotypes. i know i could learn a thing or two.



Though many slaughter practices are similar, islamic halal practices are no where near as elaborate or strict as jewish practices. The "kalima" (translated means the "word") needs to be said before an animal is slaughtered.

The word that is to be pronounced is "Bismillah" (in the name of God - "Bism" meaning "in the name of.." llah" coming from the word "Illah" or "Allah" meaning "The Lord", hence making up the prounouncement. There are additions to the pronouncement, but the bare minimum is "Bismillah".

The eating or drinking of Blood is forbidden in the same quranic verse that pork is prohibited

Quran 2.173 "He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful."







As long as the proper steps are taken to ensure that the meat is halal and slaughtered in the proper manner, then anyone can slaughter an animal. This includes the "people of the book" (ie. jews and christians). There are however, differing opinions on whether a person who is not a jew or christian can slaughter and have it deemed halal even though he/she may pronounce the "kalima".






we also have halal eating, though again not to the extent that the jews have. muslims are permitted to eat meat and dairy in the same meal, in the same dish. there are no rules against this.

i am aware of some of the jewish dietary rituals because my wife studied them while doing her dietetics degree. she called it a 'kosher kitchen' where there were seperate utinsils and seperate dishes for different foods. im amazed at how it works, and would be interested to hear about it in more detail.






though porcine products are prohibited, there are some animals that we cannot eat. generally speaking, it is animals that eat meat. beasts of prey like tigers, lions etc, birds of prey like eagles etc, dogs, cats etc. i dont know the exact rules because ive never looked them up because they dont really apply in my situation.






yeah the obvious one is alcohol. but alcohol is not prohibited because the quran wanted to prohibit drunkedness, but moreso because it's an intoxicant. therefore, with the same reasoning, drugs are considered a prohibition.

verse 2.219 in the Quran states "They ask Thee concerning Wine and Gambling, Say: In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit."

anything that is considered "haram" or prohibited is prohibited in small or large quantities. therefore utinsels or dishes that have been served with alcohol need to be cleaned and washed before being used. any foods that contain alcohol for flavour, even though it evaporates is considered prohibited under this law.






yes, muslims have similar things. actually, the more i'm finding out about judaism, the more im seeing similarities between it and islam. there are prayers, blessings and sayings, rememberences etc for things like waking up, before you sleep, before going to the bathroom, before you eat, after you eat, before you leave the house, before entering the house, before embarking on a trip,after sneezing, coughing etc etc etc. theres pretty much a prayer for everything to do with your day, some are simple one liners like "bismillah" (in the name if god) or "alhamdulillah" (praise be to god) to longer ones for travel that you hear on a lot of the middle eastern airlines before the plane takes off.




theres still one question ill need to answer for you that i have not yet answered, so ill leave that for another post



glad i can be of service! hope it clarifies things..any further questions, im more than happy to field

---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------

just wanted to add that theres a concise wiki page on islamic dietary rules if you're interested

Islamic dietary laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

difference of opinion in human nature. therefore is only natural that some interpret the way they see their religion differently to others. islam is not exempt from this. the major differences is obviously the two major sects Sunni and Shia (aka shiite)

ive answered this in post #27 with regards to sunni and shia. i can continue this if you want me to.

within the sunni sect itself, there are 4 main schools of thought based on the ideologies of 4 scholars. most sunnis follow one of these depending on what part of the world they come come. again difference of opinion on many things are present depending on the interpretation of the scholar. its well known that some people tend to take from all 4 main schools of thought as well. the literary works done on the schools of thought are so volumous that it'd take a lifetime to read, but most are about islamic law and jurispudence regarding injunctions, fatwas, and decisions on certain verses, interpretations of hadith, etc etc, so there is always another opinion.

as a whole though, the principles are pretty set and agreement is reached on those main principles. let me know if you want me to get into any details or examples.

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levite

Thanks, D. Excellent knowledge. This is quality stuff.

You rock.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Grasshopper Green

I have lots of questions.

First, and if you read my question to levite (I'm sorry, I don't know how to link specific posts), what is the Muslim view of sex before marriage?

The rest of the questions come from me and my husband jointly. We live in a very homogenous, very white uptight Christian community and the majority of our knowledge comes from the media (which is always right, you know!). He's a little more worldly than me, as he's travelled to the Middle East while in the military and had a very brief glimpse, but we are both pretty ignorant of Muslim belief/culture. We aren't trying to offend, we're genuinely interested.

How are American tourists viewed in countries that practice Islam? My husband said he would love to return (his example was Bahrain), but we really don't know if we'd be accepted, I guess. He said he saw a lot of European tourists, but what about Americans?

How is drinking viewed? Is it acceptable as long as it is in moderation?

My husband (I don't typically watch) sometimes hears on "news" programs and such - usually some sort of debate between a Muslim and a Christian - that mainstream Muslims view extremists and their behavior as not adhering to the teachings of Islam, but because of mainstream Muslims "not policing their own", the general, uneducated American view of Muslims is the extremist one. Is extremism tolerated...something distasteful but kind of swept under the rug? Are extremists who engage in criminal/terrorist activity actively pursued by law enforcement? Here in Utah (and the west in general), we definitely have extremist Christians and every so often there will be some big brouhaha between the religious people and law enforcement - the US certainly doesn't escape from zealotry. Again, we are genuinely curious. 3 minute soundbites don't offer much to sink your teeth into.

Lastly, my husband would like to know if you could recommend any books as good reading material for someone who wants to learn about Muslim religion/culture in general.

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