Kiddie porn to a minor - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

KWSN · 06-30-2003, 10:17 AM

Let me preface this by saying to anyone who has talked to me in chat that I still hate my 13 year old cousin. I despise him as much as ever. But today he asked me a question that really got me thinking. At first I thought it was just sick and didn't even deserve an answer, but after thinking about it, I realized it was something I'd never really thought about and was actually quite perplexing.

Let me also preface this by saying that, for this thread at least, minors looking at ANY porn is morally wrong due to the fact that it is illegal. We could get into a whole ohter argument about that, and I really don't want this thread to stray from the topic that I'm going to pose, so let's just keep that issue at that.

So here's my question: is it any more morally unacceptable for a minor to look at pornography involving people his or her own age than it is for them to look at pornography that would be legal for someone who is NOT a minor to view? I admit myself that when I was a minor, yes, I did look at pornography, as most adolescent males do. Not an uncommon thing. However, I never looked at "kiddie" porn, because I just thought it was sick, and I still do. But after my cousin asking me, I kind of wonder how sick it really is if you're a "kiddie" yourself.

EDIT: I think I need a little disclaimer:

No, I am NOT advocating the viewing of child pornography by ANYONE by making this thread, I am just wondering if it's any different for a minor to look at CHILD porn than is is for them to look at REGULAR porn.

phredgreen · 06-30-2003, 10:59 AM

first off, a blatant judgement. that kid's fucked up.

second off, the legal shit. child porgography is illegal to posess. period. is murder okay for a kid to do as long as it's with another kid? no. is rape okay as long as it's with another kid? no. is exploitation, embezzlement, fraud, drug trafficking, or posession okay just because they're a kid? no. laws are laws. if your cousin has these materials, they're in breach of the law. that's the cut and dry of it.

my only (personal) concern with yoru cousin posessing this materials is that somewhere, somehow, it had to be made, and that does fuck up other kids. your cousin (and others liek him, old or young) increasing the demand for it will ensure that it continues to be made.

butthead · 06-30-2003, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Let me also preface this by saying that, for this thread at least, minors looking at ANY porn is morally wrong due to the fact that it is illegal.

Quote:

So here's my question: is it any more morally unacceptable for a minor to look at pornography involving people his or her own age than it is for them to look at pornography that would be legal for someone who is NOT a minor to view?

Assuming the first statement is true, I believe it is morally unacceptable for a minor to look at pornography involving people his or her own age because it is pornography and a minor viewing any type of pornography is morally "wrong" because it's illegal.

yatzr · 06-30-2003, 12:17 PM

I've actually thought about this, but I think that a minor (especially a 13yr old) would have trouble fantasizing about a 20yr old. I mean, when I was 13 I sure didn't fantasize about 20yr olds. But i also didn't go looking at kiddie porn.

It's kind of the same thing that if two minors have sex, it's not illegal (is it?). but as soon as one of them is 18, it is. I still don't think it would be right, but I can see how a minor might think it would be okay since he is a minor and wants to see girls his own age...but again, I don't think it's right.

World's King · 06-30-2003, 01:05 PM

Seeing as how most of my life is based in logic I would have to say that it should be okay for a 12yr old to look at porn involving a 12yr old. It makes sense to me... if you disregard the law and that fact that it completly wrong.

ratbastid · 06-30-2003, 01:55 PM

I contest the assertion that the illegality of child porn is what makes it immoral. Seems you've got the cart before the horse on that one....

Setting that aside, I'd say when I was 12 years old, who I was hot for was the cute little 12 year old girls. If I'd had to choose between a photo spread of a Playboy Bunny or my classmate Amy Murphy, I'd have taken Amy in a heartbeat.

How that factors into the "wrongness" question, I don't exactly know.

For sure it would have been weird to stumble across a hardcore porn video featuring Amy... I'd have watched it, I guess, but I would have felt funny.

zfleebin · 06-30-2003, 02:03 PM

I agree the with the King logically it sounds okay. The problem I have is how they get it and where they get it. I am psych major and we have had many discussions involving pedophiles and where they get their porn and its wrong. Funny thing is people dont know that if you are a liscensed behaviorist working with pedophiles you can legally obtain kiddie porn of almost any age group, race, and hair color by contacting different universities. Now to finish this I would say logic deems kids looking at kiddie porn acceptable only if the kids get their porn from sources that do not mentally harm the models. Since this is nearly impossible it is not ok.

Nisses · 06-30-2003, 02:03 PM

I don't get the question, really.

Is it more morally wrong? Does that even matter? It's morally wrong, in both cases. Who cares if it's more in the evil-zone or less. It should not be tolerated, period. Imagine being in court for burglarly and claiming you shouldn't get the full sentence because you only broke 1 window while there...

Cynthetiq · 06-30-2003, 02:12 PM

okay... let me take a stab at it...if I understand the premise correctly...

I'm a kid, 14, in middle school/high school.

There's some hot chicks in my class. I'd love to see them naked. They go to a topless beach, and one of her g/f's snaps some pictures...

Is that child porn?

IMO from the kids point of view, no, it's not. From a legal standpoint, yes it is. Fortunately for everyone the children don't have the resources to test this in courts.

KWSN · 06-30-2003, 02:29 PM

After reading things that people have said and rolling it around in my mind for a while, I'm still really not sure what conclusion, if any, to reach on this. I DO think that it's sick for people with intentions of looking at it SPECIFICALLY because they would like to see minors naked, but I just don't think it carries the same weight if kids are looking at it because they'd like to see girls their age naked. I also am taking into account, however, that the processes that go into making a lot of this stuff are just disgusting, and that is something I have absolutely NO tolerance for. That's a different discussion altogether, though. What I'm still trying to figure out in my own mind is, disregarding its production, is kiddie porn still kiddie porn when kiddies are the ones looking at it? Not legally, but the actual legal definition of this type of thing could probably help in my reasoning.

I'm going to keep thinking about this for a while. Thanks for your responses, as it's been confusing the hell out of me, and keep them coming.

GakFace · 06-30-2003, 02:42 PM

I think It depends ons on Age.. I mean hear me out..

If you're "kiddie" age, then no, I don't think they should look at it period. I mean until you reach a certain age in your life, what you see is what you think is real. So if you are young and check out playboy, you might think THAT is how women are to be, and thus your view of women will degrade exponentially. And then to look at kids your age... it just doesn't seem right, as you're too young to be messing with that stuff in the first place.

The confusing part is this. 16 and 17 years of age. That is still a minor, and thus by law, looking at them is illegal. But When I was 18, 17 wasn't a big deal to me, and there were plenty of 17 year olds I wouldn't mind seeing nude. Thus a 17 year old wanting to look at another 17 year old? Morally I don't find that wrong.

Mind you!!! If the girl (or guy) was forced into getting taken nude, then those pictures shouldn't be seen, but normally by the age of 16, you are aware of your surroundings, and you would know that if you got pictures of yourself naked willingly, then someone could see them(which usually is the point of them). And if this is the case... I don't see how it would be wrong...

I know KWSN said Kiddie... but even age 17 is Illegal Porn, thus I thought I should bring it up.

KWSN · 06-30-2003, 02:47 PM

That reminds me, gak...

By KIDDIE I mean UNDERAGE in ANY way, shape, or form.

17 or otherwise.

Sorry for not being clear with that before. Carry on.

WhoaitsZ · 06-30-2003, 03:28 PM

my two cents.. like i said in chat

well, first point actually i didn't say in chat

you need to get close to your cousin if you like him or not. he needs guidance.

as as far as morals, when it comes to kiddy porn I give two shits. its involving CHILDREN. even the illegal part i care less about. its just fucked up in general and if you see anything of the sort run run run to the police.

another thing is. when i was 14 started getting into porn heavily and found a good bit of kiddy porn. at one time it was interesting, the next day it revolted me. i'm not sure exactly what that means, if anything, and it was just disgusting. it was too long later when Clinton tried to 'censor the internet' the guy was shut down. i remember being very happy.

i've seen bad shit and remember getting paranoid beyond beliefe. what if someone saw me d/l it?! what if i delete it and they know and think its' ok if i delete quick!?!? all kinds of little question popped up until I realized: The children, from infancy to whatever, are exploited, most likely hurt, mentally fucked, possibly raped, definatly molested and god only knows what else.

they are children and for such shit there should be no tolerance at all. i think if you're proven to have been involved you should be executed like Mel Gibson's wife in Braveheart: pulled to a stake, everyone sees and hears it, pull out a knife, slice throat, they die.

cheap. it gets attention to hopefully make someone say 'if i did that... i could be killed to.'

i have tremendouse emotion when it comes to this shit. its.. simply not possible for me to express.

i say fuck it. know the kid. guide him away. he iwll be curious and he should be curious about kids and what not. its natural. i was. my nephew is. what's new here?

if you know he has material that has kids or depicts them you have to ake it your business. if he's peeping at girls, laugh. he's a boy. if you know he is going to get pornography (obviously) i think you should introduce him to classy porn now before he gets into the darker side. (I've nothing against fetish sex, i love it! but i doubt it'd be healthy for a kid who knows little about sex and responsibility) show him how to apreciate beauty and the human body.

if people interfere try to explain it. don't just go 'well i think its time little johnny gets playboy!' to the community or anything but disarm what can be harmful while you can.

you involved yourself... don't turn back now.

06-30-2003, 03:44 PM

I don't think it would be morally wrong to to the teenager to look at other naked teens. I would of rather saw the girls in my class naked then the pictures in the magazines my friends stole from the store.

Legally it's wrong either way.

But I wouldn't call someone immoral at that age for that. It's only natural (as natural as wanting to see people their age naked whilst having such strong horomones). The only reason they don't see it, is because it's illegal.

And it's illegal because of the type of people who get that kind of porn are usually pieces of shit and it can be damaging to the teen involved.

So in closing, is it morally wrong? Not really. Is it wrong? Yes. In the same way looking at ANY porn as a teen is wrong.

Slims · 06-30-2003, 07:45 PM

Let's put this in perspective: What about a 17 year old who takes some naked pictures of his 17 year old girlfriend?

druptight · 06-30-2003, 07:57 PM

When i was that age, all i wanted to see was tits. any tits would do, and preferably the larger the better. This being the case, i would probably want to see adult boobs. However, i can understand the yearning for a younger person to want to see another younger person naked. This certainly does not make child porn right, unless one child could take pictures of another child naked, with perfect understanding and consent. Unfortunately this is not likely, and the reality is that some adult must take pictures of a child naked, and must probably lie to them or confuse them to convince them to do it. so on these grounds, i can understand a child's desire to see child porn, but certainly do not find it proper for them to do so. just my two cents.

druptight.

guthmund · 06-30-2003, 11:01 PM

I look back over the replies and I have just two comments....

I have yet to see anyone differentiate between looking at porn and making porn. There is a huge difference in relating that distinction to the question, in my opinion.

Yeah, kiddie (Assume an age range of 13-17, any younger and you're not really interested "that way" in the opposite sex) porn is illegal and making it does some horrible things to kids mentally and physically. But....viewing kiddie porn, (again, understand the distinction that you're a kiddie yourself) seems to be completely harmless. As a viewer, you're simply seeing your peers the way you've been fantasizing about them. You didn't coerce or force them into doing anything at all, you're simply enjoying sexually explicit pictures for sexual gratification.

I enjoy adult pornography, but do I feel guilty knowing that the woman I'm ogling has been forced into doing this by her boyfriend/manager/economic status? Nope, I'm only looking to get off. I'm not interested in her personal situation; I'm solely interested in her physically.

Second, I've noticed quite a few comments about morality and illegality. The two are not mutally exclusive. Because it's illegal, then it must be morally wrong as well? Anal sex was illegal in some states until a few days ago, does that mean while it was illegal it was morally wrong for folks to engage in anal sex?

Is it illegal for a minor to be in possesion of porn? I don't think so (If I'm wrong, please correct me) I know it's illegal for them to buy porn, but that's the extent of my knowledge. I just think that teenagers should be exposed to porn. My father had a healthy stack of Playboys around the house that I looked at. My Uncle bought me my first box of condoms. I've been sexually smart since 15. To my credit there are no little "guthmunds" out running around and I've never contracted an STD. My sister, however, was never schooled in such things (She told me as much) and she's the proud parent of two kids by two different fathers and nursing a divorce; all at the ripe age of 23.

Are we exceptions to the rule?

Back to the topic......I don't think it's disgusting for a 16 year old to want to look at 16 year olds naked. If a 17 year old guy takes some naked pictures of his girlfriend (I would assume there is some kind of consent there) then what's the big deal? They've passed into sexually maturity and they didn't even need the law to tell them when.

Bill O'Rights · 07-01-2003, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KWSN
...minors looking at ANY porn is morally wrong due to the fact that it is illegal.

First, do not confuse what is morally right or wrong with what is legal or illegal. Morality is subjective and as such cannot be dictated. (though some certainly do try) What is right for me, may be wrong for you, and vice versa. Morals and values are a very personal thing. Now, as for what is legal and what is illegal...that's pretty cut and dried. While you may not agree, (there's that morality thing coming into play again) you know, for a fact, that something is illegal. Take marijuana, for example. Is smoking marijuana morally wrong? For some...maybe, for others, certainly not. Is it illegal? You bet your ass it is!

As for kids viewing "kiddie porn", I'd have to say that for me, I would find that morally wrong. There are some out there (read sick bastards) that would find nothing wrong with it in the least. Now, when I was, say 14 years old, I would have to say that I most definately would have prefered to see a naked 14 year old chick than a naked 24 year old. Although, for me, at the time, this was not an option. I looked at what was available at that time, and that was Playboy. I can still recall how rattled I became the first time that I was actually older than the Playmate of the Month. Values and morals change as your maturity and life experiences change.

KWSN · 07-01-2003, 05:21 AM

I see some good arguments here... as for the legality/morality thing, I don't necessarily agree with that, but I posed it just to keep the discussion from wandering off too far in other directions. I don't think that what's illegal is necessarily morally wrong at all. Hell, in Idaho, you can't fish off a giraffe's back. I see nothing morally wrong with going on-a-giraffe's-back-fishing, but it's illegal (God only knows why).

Thanks for the comments, everyone (but especially Z and druptight). Keep 'em coming.

warrrreagl · 07-01-2003, 05:28 AM

On the lighter side of all this, consider my brother's quandry. He and his wife have a 14 yr old son, and they recently discovered all these Lolita, Jr. High, and Young Teen sites in the cache history of their browser. The first finger of accusation went toward my brother until they finally figured out it was the kid. They had to explain to him that although it was natural for him to be curious about girls his age, it didn't leave a respectable trail on the family computer. They cautioned him to be more careful.

I'm glad I wasn't the one trying to convince someone that those sites weren't mine.

MacGnG · 07-01-2003, 09:34 AM

some dude was lookin at some naked pictures of his gf of the same age than i see that as ok. if we accept the situation u have given, same age, although still underage, and kiddie being AT LEAST adolescent (13), and NOT little kids, simply for the sake of this thread, i'd say thats ok.

WhoaitsZ · 07-01-2003, 10:03 AM

no offense meant, but most boys and girls are way to niaeve at 13-15. even 16+. but man fucking with (or just fucking) someone who just doesn't know what to do wrong. its not much different than date rape.

oh and please....... 'i watch it but i don't make it so i'm fine. why do you lie to yourself?

you are making a demand for it. it will never quit until people become harsh with the predators/pedophiles and quit watching it.

nothing in the world can continue if one person wants it and willing to check it out.

its like doing paperwork for a war. you're not pulling the trigger to kill, but they wouldn't be shooting in the first place if not for you.

guthmund · 07-01-2003, 01:04 PM

So where does the line of personal responsibility begin?

Am I to feel guilty for eating a nice steak on Sundays because the cow, which my steak was taken from, had a horrible life full of pain and suffering?

You can't possibly live your life feeling responsible for everything that may or may not be attributed to your breathing. So, no I don't feel guilty ordering a steak because the fact is I had nothing to do with raising or killing that cow.

The viewer of child pornography, while supplying demand, isn't making child pornography. It's a fine distinction. He's not doing anything. While my opinion of the guy is total shit and I may vehemently disagree with this guy he is guilty of nothing.

I demand a lot of shit; Some of it illegal and morally offensive; Most times I don't get it. I'm supplying a demand, where is my supplyer?

The actual crime is in the act itself. If the viewer gets castrated and beaten by a group of concerned citizens and I'm watching from my window am I guilty of wrong doing? I totally agree with them beating the crap out this guy and have no problems with what they've done, but since I wasn't physically involved in the act I have committed no crime.

You can't legislate and punish intent.

viveleroi0 · 07-01-2003, 02:04 PM

I see it this way: two wrongs do not make a right.

KWSN · 07-01-2003, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by guthmund
Am I to feel guilty for eating a nice steak on Sundays because the cow, which my steak was taken from, had a horrible life full of pain and suffering?

Last I checked, people weren't cows.

bermuDa · 07-01-2003, 02:37 PM

anything sexual involving kids is a sticky subject. Puberty is a confusing time for just about everyone; I remember wanting to see naked girls in junior high school... It was more a rite of passage than satisfying sexual curiosity.

I find it interesting that we (as a society) try to keep our kids from experimenting but at the same time we want them to understand what it is mommy and daddy do when they're alone. There was some legislation introduced a while ago that wanted to start teaching sex ed in elementary school! Even junior high students are mature enough to handle that kind of information!

And of course we've got abercrombie and fitch selling the pre-teen thong, and teen magazines and television shows showcasing impossible physical fitness goals and tips on attracting the opposite sex... but what do we expect these kids to do when they do attract a boy or girl? We're teaching them what sex is and how to go about finding a mate... but at the same time expecting them not to try it out. it's retarded.

I see what you mean, KWSN. When I did finally see a naked girl around my age when I was a kid I didn't feel as dirty as I would if I looked at one now, whether I'd get aroused or not. I think kids are going to experiment no matter what, and teaching them about sex when they're younger is just going to guarantee they'll experiment at earlier ages.

I think kiddie porn is wrong; not because the law says so, but because I don't think kids are mature enough to know about sex, let alone participate in it. these kids are gonna be seriously fucked up when they get older, it's totally wrong for some pervert (be it the pornographer or the viewer) to screw up a kid's future so he can satisfy his own sick desires.

KWSN · 07-01-2003, 02:47 PM

Great post, bermuDa. I agree with just about everything in there.

Keep 'em coming, people.

guthmund · 07-01-2003, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KWSN
Last I checked, people weren't cows.

I'm a graduate of two state funded institutions and I beg to differ.

If you've ever seen the mass exodus to the salad bar during dinnertime at the local sizzler you'd realize it's not that big a stretch of the imagination.

Cubby · 07-02-2003, 10:42 AM

I agree with many of the posts above. In my mind, a 13-year old viewing a naked 13-year old should not be a problem. The problem lies in how the naked 13 year old was captured on film. In other words, is someone exploiting and taking advantage of the that youth? If the photos are online then probably. If they were taken by the 13-year old..then probably not as they were just fooling around. The problem is you can't make exceptions in cases such as this and so an all around ban on explicit photos involving minors is required.

FYI: There is another issue that has been in the news lately on a related topic. Sixate started a thread on it...Kids Nudist Summer Camps.

suviko · 07-03-2003, 10:44 AM

I have pics of myself when I was 16, taken by my then-bf, we had a blast and we also shot *ahem* "home video" but the quality was so horrible we made sure to tape something over it and fast! I think juniors experimenting on their own among emselves is ok when it's innocent like that, but there should be no commercial stuff for them. And yeah, 16 is different than 12. I would draw line to 15 when I'd start to talking about stuff seriously with my own kid if the subject hadn't come up on it's own before that.

Some weeks back at the #tfp we were talking about same thing and I think it's wrong there are even non-nude teen sites, bikini pics of 10 to 18 year olds.

We can be pretty sure it's not kids of their age seeing the pics and paying with Visa for it.. :I

suviko · 07-03-2003, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bermuDa

I find it interesting that we (as a society) try to keep our kids from experimenting but at the same time we want them to understand what it is mommy and daddy do when they're alone. There was some legislation introduced a while ago that wanted to start teaching sex ed in elementary school! Even junior high students are mature enough to handle that kind of information!

Seen Kids the movie? In some areas I think the schools should react to the problem if teen pragnencies are starting to come up at unnatural speed and STDS run rampant. :I

bermuDa · 07-03-2003, 10:56 AM

yeah Kids was a great movie, I saw it back in '95 and wanted to go to new york so bad

Also taught me the importance of wearing a condom, even if (as one of the characters pointed out) "it makes your dick shrink or some shit"

mrap1 · 07-03-2003, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by butthead
Assuming the first statement is true, I believe it is morally unacceptable for a minor to look at pornography involving people his or her own age because it is pornography and a minor viewing any type of pornography is morally "wrong" because it's illegal.

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it's morrally wrong or unethical and vice versa.

cowudders14 · 07-05-2003, 03:37 PM

Law aside, there's one important point missing from this debate: What *is* porn?
A 12yr old looking at another 12yr old, naked, but doing nothing is, IMHO, ok, and only down to curiosity. But if it's a 12yr old looking at a 12yr old getting fucked, then it's wrong. Problem is where do you draw a line? What is bad and what is good? My view would go with my normal view on anyone looking at kiddie porn - it's porn if it has anything to do with sex, genital exhibition, blatent 'lewdness' etc - someone obviously portayed in a sexual manner. But if it's just a pic of a minor nude, not with anyone or doing anything much, I see no problem with that.
I have a good memory of when I was about 10/11, when I saw a naked girl for the first time (the swimming baths we used had some interestingly placed vent shafts between the two changing rooms, with vents exactly opposite each other - you could see right through! I was curious, and, as it wasn't anything sexual, just some girls naked getting changed, I enjoyed it, and to this day I think there is nothing wrong with it.

Summary: If it really is *porn*, it's wrong. If it's just naked pics, it's fine.

-Ever- · 07-06-2003, 02:49 AM

A senior was recently busted at my local high school this past semester; Maybe you even brought this up because of recent events like this. I have been thinking the same thoughts as you as well. I see no oddety or un-moral characteristics towards a kid 'under age' to be looking at 'under age' pornography. Yeah maybe it could lead to a future addiction or problems, but then that would create pre-facto based laws which are obviously unjust....maybe they could be treated as being in need of some kind of therapy, but legally I think it dangles on extremely fine lines.
I dunno. It's a pretty funny and odd subject in my mind....

06-30-2003, 10:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
KWSN green	Kiddie porn to a minor Let me preface this by saying to anyone who has talked to me in chat that I still hate my 13 year old cousin. I despise him as much as ever. But today he asked me a question that really got me thinking. At first I thought it was just sick and didn't even deserve an answer, but after thinking about it, I realized it was something I'd never really thought about and was actually quite perplexing. Let me also preface this by saying that, for this thread at least, minors looking at ANY porn is morally wrong due to the fact that it is illegal. We could get into a whole ohter argument about that, and I really don't want this thread to stray from the topic that I'm going to pose, so let's just keep that issue at that. So here's my question: is it any more morally unacceptable for a minor to look at pornography involving people his or her own age than it is for them to look at pornography that would be legal for someone who is NOT a minor to view? I admit myself that when I was a minor, yes, I did look at pornography, as most adolescent males do. Not an uncommon thing. However, I never looked at "kiddie" porn, because I just thought it was sick, and I still do. But after my cousin asking me, I kind of wonder how sick it really is if you're a "kiddie" yourself. EDIT: I think I need a little disclaimer: No, I am NOT advocating the viewing of child pornography by ANYONE by making this thread, I am just wondering if it's any different for a minor to look at CHILD porn than is is for them to look at REGULAR porn. __________________ Your arms are broken!

06-30-2003, 10:59 AM	#2 (permalink)
phredgreen who? Location: the phoenix metro	first off, a blatant judgement. that kid's fucked up. second off, the legal shit. child porgography is illegal to posess. period. is murder okay for a kid to do as long as it's with another kid? no. is rape okay as long as it's with another kid? no. is exploitation, embezzlement, fraud, drug trafficking, or posession okay just because they're a kid? no. laws are laws. if your cousin has these materials, they're in breach of the law. that's the cut and dry of it. my only (personal) concern with yoru cousin posessing this materials is that somewhere, somehow, it had to be made, and that does fuck up other kids. your cousin (and others liek him, old or young) increasing the demand for it will ensure that it continues to be made. __________________ My country is the world, and my religion is to do good. - Thomas Paine

06-30-2003, 12:17 PM	#4 (permalink)
yatzr Insane	I've actually thought about this, but I think that a minor (especially a 13yr old) would have trouble fantasizing about a 20yr old. I mean, when I was 13 I sure didn't fantasize about 20yr olds. But i also didn't go looking at kiddie porn. It's kind of the same thing that if two minors have sex, it's not illegal (is it?). but as soon as one of them is 18, it is. I still don't think it would be right, but I can see how a minor might think it would be okay since he is a minor and wants to see girls his own age...but again, I don't think it's right. __________________ Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

06-30-2003, 01:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Seeing as how most of my life is based in logic I would have to say that it should be okay for a 12yr old to look at porn involving a 12yr old. It makes sense to me... if you disregard the law and that fact that it completly wrong. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

06-30-2003, 02:03 PM	#8 (permalink)
Nisses Shade Location: Belgium	I don't get the question, really. Is it more morally wrong? Does that even matter? It's morally wrong, in both cases. Who cares if it's more in the evil-zone or less. It should not be tolerated, period. Imagine being in court for burglarly and claiming you shouldn't get the full sentence because you only broke 1 window while there... __________________ Moderation should be moderately moderated.

06-30-2003, 01:55 PM	#6 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	I contest the assertion that the illegality of child porn is what makes it immoral. Seems you've got the cart before the horse on that one.... Setting that aside, I'd say when I was 12 years old, who I was hot for was the cute little 12 year old girls. If I'd had to choose between a photo spread of a Playboy Bunny or my classmate Amy Murphy, I'd have taken Amy in a heartbeat. How that factors into the "wrongness" question, I don't exactly know. For sure it would have been weird to stumble across a hardcore porn video featuring Amy... I'd have watched it, I guess, but I would have felt funny.

06-30-2003, 02:03 PM	#7 (permalink)
zfleebin Addict	I agree the with the King logically it sounds okay. The problem I have is how they get it and where they get it. I am psych major and we have had many discussions involving pedophiles and where they get their porn and its wrong. Funny thing is people dont know that if you are a liscensed behaviorist working with pedophiles you can legally obtain kiddie porn of almost any age group, race, and hair color by contacting different universities. Now to finish this I would say logic deems kids looking at kiddie porn acceptable only if the kids get their porn from sources that do not mentally harm the models. Since this is nearly impossible it is not ok.

06-30-2003, 02:12 PM	#9 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	okay... let me take a stab at it...if I understand the premise correctly... I'm a kid, 14, in middle school/high school. There's some hot chicks in my class. I'd love to see them naked. They go to a topless beach, and one of her g/f's snaps some pictures... Is that child porn? IMO from the kids point of view, no, it's not. From a legal standpoint, yes it is. Fortunately for everyone the children don't have the resources to test this in courts. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

06-30-2003, 02:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
KWSN green	After reading things that people have said and rolling it around in my mind for a while, I'm still really not sure what conclusion, if any, to reach on this. I DO think that it's sick for people with intentions of looking at it SPECIFICALLY because they would like to see minors naked, but I just don't think it carries the same weight if kids are looking at it because they'd like to see girls their age naked. I also am taking into account, however, that the processes that go into making a lot of this stuff are just disgusting, and that is something I have absolutely NO tolerance for. That's a different discussion altogether, though. What I'm still trying to figure out in my own mind is, disregarding its production, is kiddie porn still kiddie porn when kiddies are the ones looking at it? Not legally, but the actual legal definition of this type of thing could probably help in my reasoning. I'm going to keep thinking about this for a while. Thanks for your responses, as it's been confusing the hell out of me, and keep them coming. __________________ Your arms are broken!

06-30-2003, 02:42 PM	#11 (permalink)
GakFace Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!! Location: IN, USA	I think It depends ons on Age.. I mean hear me out.. If you're "kiddie" age, then no, I don't think they should look at it period. I mean until you reach a certain age in your life, what you see is what you think is real. So if you are young and check out playboy, you might think THAT is how women are to be, and thus your view of women will degrade exponentially. And then to look at kids your age... it just doesn't seem right, as you're too young to be messing with that stuff in the first place. The confusing part is this. 16 and 17 years of age. That is still a minor, and thus by law, looking at them is illegal. But When I was 18, 17 wasn't a big deal to me, and there were plenty of 17 year olds I wouldn't mind seeing nude. Thus a 17 year old wanting to look at another 17 year old? Morally I don't find that wrong. Mind you!!! If the girl (or guy) was forced into getting taken nude, then those pictures shouldn't be seen, but normally by the age of 16, you are aware of your surroundings, and you would know that if you got pictures of yourself naked willingly, then someone could see them(which usually is the point of them). And if this is the case... I don't see how it would be wrong... I know KWSN said Kiddie... but even age 17 is Illegal Porn, thus I thought I should bring it up. __________________ RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

06-30-2003, 02:47 PM	#12 (permalink)
KWSN green	That reminds me, gak... By KIDDIE I mean UNDERAGE in ANY way, shape, or form. 17 or otherwise. Sorry for not being clear with that before. Carry on. __________________ Your arms are broken!

06-30-2003, 03:28 PM	#13 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	my two cents.. like i said in chat well, first point actually i didn't say in chat you need to get close to your cousin if you like him or not. he needs guidance. as as far as morals, when it comes to kiddy porn I give two shits. its involving CHILDREN. even the illegal part i care less about. its just fucked up in general and if you see anything of the sort run run run to the police. another thing is. when i was 14 started getting into porn heavily and found a good bit of kiddy porn. at one time it was interesting, the next day it revolted me. i'm not sure exactly what that means, if anything, and it was just disgusting. it was too long later when Clinton tried to 'censor the internet' the guy was shut down. i remember being very happy. i've seen bad shit and remember getting paranoid beyond beliefe. what if someone saw me d/l it?! what if i delete it and they know and think its' ok if i delete quick!?!? all kinds of little question popped up until I realized: The children, from infancy to whatever, are exploited, most likely hurt, mentally fucked, possibly raped, definatly molested and god only knows what else. they are children and for such shit there should be no tolerance at all. i think if you're proven to have been involved you should be executed like Mel Gibson's wife in Braveheart: pulled to a stake, everyone sees and hears it, pull out a knife, slice throat, they die. cheap. it gets attention to hopefully make someone say 'if i did that... i could be killed to.' i have tremendouse emotion when it comes to this shit. its.. simply not possible for me to express. i say fuck it. know the kid. guide him away. he iwll be curious and he should be curious about kids and what not. its natural. i was. my nephew is. what's new here? if you know he has material that has kids or depicts them you have to ake it your business. if he's peeping at girls, laugh. he's a boy. if you know he is going to get pornography (obviously) i think you should introduce him to classy porn now before he gets into the darker side. (I've nothing against fetish sex, i love it! but i doubt it'd be healthy for a kid who knows little about sex and responsibility) show him how to apreciate beauty and the human body. if people interfere try to explain it. don't just go 'well i think its time little johnny gets playboy!' to the community or anything but disarm what can be harmful while you can. you involved yourself... don't turn back now.

06-30-2003, 03:44 PM	#14 (permalink)
Ruiner Guest	I don't think it would be morally wrong to to the teenager to look at other naked teens. I would of rather saw the girls in my class naked then the pictures in the magazines my friends stole from the store. Legally it's wrong either way. But I wouldn't call someone immoral at that age for that. It's only natural (as natural as wanting to see people their age naked whilst having such strong horomones). The only reason they don't see it, is because it's illegal. And it's illegal because of the type of people who get that kind of porn are usually pieces of shit and it can be damaging to the teen involved. So in closing, is it morally wrong? Not really. Is it wrong? Yes. In the same way looking at ANY porn as a teen is wrong.

06-30-2003, 07:45 PM	#15 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Let's put this in perspective: What about a 17 year old who takes some naked pictures of his 17 year old girlfriend? __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

06-30-2003, 07:57 PM	#16 (permalink)
druptight Banned Location: In Your Pants!!!!	When i was that age, all i wanted to see was tits. any tits would do, and preferably the larger the better. This being the case, i would probably want to see adult boobs. However, i can understand the yearning for a younger person to want to see another younger person naked. This certainly does not make child porn right, unless one child could take pictures of another child naked, with perfect understanding and consent. Unfortunately this is not likely, and the reality is that some adult must take pictures of a child naked, and must probably lie to them or confuse them to convince them to do it. so on these grounds, i can understand a child's desire to see child porn, but certainly do not find it proper for them to do so. just my two cents. druptight.

06-30-2003, 11:01 PM	#17 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	I look back over the replies and I have just two comments.... I have yet to see anyone differentiate between looking at porn and making porn. There is a huge difference in relating that distinction to the question, in my opinion. Yeah, kiddie (Assume an age range of 13-17, any younger and you're not really interested "that way" in the opposite sex) porn is illegal and making it does some horrible things to kids mentally and physically. But....viewing kiddie porn, (again, understand the distinction that you're a kiddie yourself) seems to be completely harmless. As a viewer, you're simply seeing your peers the way you've been fantasizing about them. You didn't coerce or force them into doing anything at all, you're simply enjoying sexually explicit pictures for sexual gratification. I enjoy adult pornography, but do I feel guilty knowing that the woman I'm ogling has been forced into doing this by her boyfriend/manager/economic status? Nope, I'm only looking to get off. I'm not interested in her personal situation; I'm solely interested in her physically. Second, I've noticed quite a few comments about morality and illegality. The two are not mutally exclusive. Because it's illegal, then it must be morally wrong as well? Anal sex was illegal in some states until a few days ago, does that mean while it was illegal it was morally wrong for folks to engage in anal sex? Is it illegal for a minor to be in possesion of porn? I don't think so (If I'm wrong, please correct me) I know it's illegal for them to buy porn, but that's the extent of my knowledge. I just think that teenagers should be exposed to porn. My father had a healthy stack of Playboys around the house that I looked at. My Uncle bought me my first box of condoms. I've been sexually smart since 15. To my credit there are no little "guthmunds" out running around and I've never contracted an STD. My sister, however, was never schooled in such things (She told me as much) and she's the proud parent of two kids by two different fathers and nursing a divorce; all at the ripe age of 23. Are we exceptions to the rule? Back to the topic......I don't think it's disgusting for a 16 year old to want to look at 16 year olds naked. If a 17 year old guy takes some naked pictures of his girlfriend (I would assume there is some kind of consent there) then what's the big deal? They've passed into sexually maturity and they didn't even need the law to tell them when. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously. Last edited by guthmund; 06-30-2003 at 11:04 PM..

07-01-2003, 05:21 AM	#19 (permalink)
KWSN green	I see some good arguments here... as for the legality/morality thing, I don't necessarily agree with that, but I posed it just to keep the discussion from wandering off too far in other directions. I don't think that what's illegal is necessarily morally wrong at all. Hell, in Idaho, you can't fish off a giraffe's back. I see nothing morally wrong with going on-a-giraffe's-back-fishing, but it's illegal (God only knows why). Thanks for the comments, everyone (but especially Z and druptight). Keep 'em coming. __________________ Your arms are broken!

07-01-2003, 05:28 AM	#20 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	On the lighter side of all this, consider my brother's quandry. He and his wife have a 14 yr old son, and they recently discovered all these Lolita, Jr. High, and Young Teen sites in the cache history of their browser. The first finger of accusation went toward my brother until they finally figured out it was the kid. They had to explain to him that although it was natural for him to be curious about girls his age, it didn't leave a respectable trail on the family computer. They cautioned him to be more careful. I'm glad I wasn't the one trying to convince someone that those sites weren't mine. __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

07-01-2003, 09:34 AM	#21 (permalink)
MacGnG Know Where!	some dude was lookin at some naked pictures of his gf of the same age than i see that as ok. if we accept the situation u have given, same age, although still underage, and kiddie being AT LEAST adolescent (13), and NOT little kids, simply for the sake of this thread, i'd say thats ok.

07-01-2003, 10:03 AM	#22 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	no offense meant, but most boys and girls are way to niaeve at 13-15. even 16+. but man fucking with (or just fucking) someone who just doesn't know what to do wrong. its not much different than date rape. oh and please....... 'i watch it but i don't make it so i'm fine. why do you lie to yourself? you are making a demand for it. it will never quit until people become harsh with the predators/pedophiles and quit watching it. nothing in the world can continue if one person wants it and willing to check it out. its like doing paperwork for a war. you're not pulling the trigger to kill, but they wouldn't be shooting in the first place if not for you.

07-01-2003, 01:04 PM	#23 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	So where does the line of personal responsibility begin? Am I to feel guilty for eating a nice steak on Sundays because the cow, which my steak was taken from, had a horrible life full of pain and suffering? You can't possibly live your life feeling responsible for everything that may or may not be attributed to your breathing. So, no I don't feel guilty ordering a steak because the fact is I had nothing to do with raising or killing that cow. The viewer of child pornography, while supplying demand, isn't making child pornography. It's a fine distinction. He's not doing anything. While my opinion of the guy is total shit and I may vehemently disagree with this guy he is guilty of nothing. I demand a lot of shit; Some of it illegal and morally offensive; Most times I don't get it. I'm supplying a demand, where is my supplyer? The actual crime is in the act itself. If the viewer gets castrated and beaten by a group of concerned citizens and I'm watching from my window am I guilty of wrong doing? I totally agree with them beating the crap out this guy and have no problems with what they've done, but since I wasn't physically involved in the act I have committed no crime. You can't legislate and punish intent. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

07-01-2003, 02:04 PM	#24 (permalink)
viveleroi0 Psycho Location: Oregon	I see it this way: two wrongs do not make a right. __________________ "It's not that I don't understand, it's that I don't care" - Homer Simpson

07-01-2003, 02:37 PM	#26 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	anything sexual involving kids is a sticky subject. Puberty is a confusing time for just about everyone; I remember wanting to see naked girls in junior high school... It was more a rite of passage than satisfying sexual curiosity. I find it interesting that we (as a society) try to keep our kids from experimenting but at the same time we want them to understand what it is mommy and daddy do when they're alone. There was some legislation introduced a while ago that wanted to start teaching sex ed in elementary school! Even junior high students are mature enough to handle that kind of information! And of course we've got abercrombie and fitch selling the pre-teen thong, and teen magazines and television shows showcasing impossible physical fitness goals and tips on attracting the opposite sex... but what do we expect these kids to do when they do attract a boy or girl? We're teaching them what sex is and how to go about finding a mate... but at the same time expecting them not to try it out. it's retarded. I see what you mean, KWSN. When I did finally see a naked girl around my age when I was a kid I didn't feel as dirty as I would if I looked at one now, whether I'd get aroused or not. I think kids are going to experiment no matter what, and teaching them about sex when they're younger is just going to guarantee they'll experiment at earlier ages. I think kiddie porn is wrong; not because the law says so, but because I don't think kids are mature enough to know about sex, let alone participate in it. these kids are gonna be seriously fucked up when they get older, it's totally wrong for some pervert (be it the pornographer or the viewer) to screw up a kid's future so he can satisfy his own sick desires. __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

07-01-2003, 02:47 PM	#27 (permalink)
KWSN green	Great post, bermuDa. I agree with just about everything in there. Keep 'em coming, people. __________________ Your arms are broken!

07-02-2003, 10:42 AM	#29 (permalink)
Cubby Insane Location: BC, Canada	I agree with many of the posts above. In my mind, a 13-year old viewing a naked 13-year old should not be a problem. The problem lies in how the naked 13 year old was captured on film. In other words, is someone exploiting and taking advantage of the that youth? If the photos are online then probably. If they were taken by the 13-year old..then probably not as they were just fooling around. The problem is you can't make exceptions in cases such as this and so an all around ban on explicit photos involving minors is required. FYI: There is another issue that has been in the news lately on a related topic. Sixate started a thread on it...Kids Nudist Summer Camps. __________________ Don't be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted! Last edited by Cubby; 07-02-2003 at 10:45 AM..

07-03-2003, 10:44 AM	#30 (permalink)
suviko Banned	I have pics of myself when I was 16, taken by my then-bf, we had a blast and we also shot ahem "home video" but the quality was so horrible we made sure to tape something over it and fast! I think juniors experimenting on their own among emselves is ok when it's innocent like that, but there should be no commercial stuff for them. And yeah, 16 is different than 12. I would draw line to 15 when I'd start to talking about stuff seriously with my own kid if the subject hadn't come up on it's own before that. Some weeks back at the #tfp we were talking about same thing and I think it's wrong there are even non-nude teen sites, bikini pics of 10 to 18 year olds. We can be pretty sure it's not kids of their age seeing the pics and paying with Visa for it.. :I Last edited by Lebell; 07-03-2003 at 10:51 AM..

07-03-2003, 10:56 AM	#32 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	yeah Kids was a great movie, I saw it back in '95 and wanted to go to new york so bad Also taught me the importance of wearing a condom, even if (as one of the characters pointed out) "it makes your dick shrink or some shit" __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

07-05-2003, 03:37 PM	#34 (permalink)
cowudders14 Bringer of good Moos... Location: Midlands, UK	Law aside, there's one important point missing from this debate: What is porn? A 12yr old looking at another 12yr old, naked, but doing nothing is, IMHO, ok, and only down to curiosity. But if it's a 12yr old looking at a 12yr old getting fucked, then it's wrong. Problem is where do you draw a line? What is bad and what is good? My view would go with my normal view on anyone looking at kiddie porn - it's porn if it has anything to do with sex, genital exhibition, blatent 'lewdness' etc - someone obviously portayed in a sexual manner. But if it's just a pic of a minor nude, not with anyone or doing anything much, I see no problem with that. I have a good memory of when I was about 10/11, when I saw a naked girl for the first time (the swimming baths we used had some interestingly placed vent shafts between the two changing rooms, with vents exactly opposite each other - you could see right through! I was curious, and, as it wasn't anything sexual, just some girls naked getting changed, I enjoyed it, and to this day I think there is nothing wrong with it. Summary: If it really is porn, it's wrong. If it's just naked pics, it's fine. __________________ Moo! I'm mooey!

07-06-2003, 02:49 AM	#35 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	A senior was recently busted at my local high school this past semester; Maybe you even brought this up because of recent events like this. I have been thinking the same thoughts as you as well. I see no oddety or un-moral characteristics towards a kid 'under age' to be looking at 'under age' pornography. Yeah maybe it could lead to a future addiction or problems, but then that would create pre-facto based laws which are obviously unjust....maybe they could be treated as being in need of some kind of therapy, but legally I think it dangles on extremely fine lines. I dunno. It's a pretty funny and odd subject in my mind.... __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--