skizziks

This might look like I'm being a smart ass or stirring shit up just to stir shit up, but I am totally serious.

Just like Bruce Springsteen, I was born in the USA. Both my parents were born in the USA. My grandparents came over on the boat though. But my kid was born in the USA.

Why can't I (or at least my kid, third generation) call myself a Native American on those questionnaires? Is it a genetic thing? An ethnic thing?

If I'm not native American, what am I? I am apparently not ethinc, I don't have my own category, I'm "white." White isn't an ethnicity or race (no, it's not a race) or nationality, its a fucking color.

So either I should be native American, cause I was born here and all, or the question should read

American: yes no (circle the correct answer)

Charlatan

It's a definition thing.

You are a native born American.

Native Americans are those who trace their ancestry to the aboriginal population that was in North America prior to the arrival of Europeans.


You can call yourself a Native American all you want but it doesn't mean that people will know what you mean.

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filtherton

Why do we park in driveways and drive in parkways? Isn't that how it goes?

Because.

Vigilante

Native americans by my definition, crossed the land bridge, didn't keep genes for alcohol tolerance (not in a joking sense, seriously) and developed a unique culture and appearance here in north america.

You and I are a non-native group. Although we are the same species, we are still like the european chestnut, alligator weed or the domestic cat. We did not originate here, so while we are native born, we are not "native", as it were. They are native in the scientific sense of the term. If you are white, you can trace your family back to europe. If you are black, you can trace your family back to africa, etc. If you are native american, your family heritage is right here. Now of course there are few if any pure native individuals anymore, but part of their heritage is here. Hell even part of my heritage is here, my great great great grandmother was cherokee. I think I have some chickasaw blood somewhere else in the family as well.

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Willravel

It's an ethnic thing.

There needs to be an appropriate and descriptive title for those who descent from the humans that lived in Northern an Central America before Europe began to colonize about 500 years ago. They're not European, they don't descend from Europeans. They did descend from the same people Russians and Asians descended from, but they've not been Asian for well over 20,000 years. They are their own distinct ethnicity. As such, they require a unique title, and Native American is the best descriptive title that isn't more than maybe a dozen words.

Why aren't you a Native American? You're of European descent (I'm guessing). Jump back a few generations and you're probably eating schnitzels or scones, not maze and buffalo.

dlish

its the same reason im not aboriginal australian

sure i was born in sydney. raised in sydney and have appreciation for everything australian, but it doesnt make me aboriginal. my parents migrated to australia about 35 years ago, its where i call home and english is my first language. my heritage is lebanese, and my culture is lebanese with a heck of a lot of 'australian' influence.

why try and be something you are not?

at the end of the day you're talking about technicalities in language rather than why you are actually not really native american.

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highthief

They might have taken boats.

Seriously, the theory of a coastal route is gaining favour over the land bridge/corridor thing.

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Seaver

No, in the scientific sense they are Mongoloid. Native American is the term we adopted when someone finally put the mis-label Indian to sleep. It's not perfect, but it neither is alot of terms. I'm German, I say that not because I'm 100% but because Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Austrian, and a bit of Norse run through my blood. The fact is they are all "Germanic" as they share very close culture, language, and tradition. It's not perfect, but accuracy is not required as the only thing that influences me today is I have a real reason to celebrate Oktoberfest.

Like said above, Park in a Driveway and Drive in a Parkway. It's the definition of the word which is the reason for the word. It's to convey our intent, our society knows Native American as the tribes who were here when Columbus landed. To use Native American in your sense is "technically" right, but wrong linguistically as that is the common use for the word.

Honestly, it's sad but when using the true definition and intent of language even "Irregardless" is a word. Hell, Firefox didn't even pick it up as a misspell.

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lotsofmagnets

try sweden where you´re considered a "foreigner" because your parents were born in another country.

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physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

mcgeedo

"Native americans by my definition, crossed the land bridge, didn't keep genes for alcohol tolerance (not in a joking sense, seriously) and developed a unique culture and appearance here in north america."

Your definition may be what ever you'd like it to be, but there is also a legal definition, whether you like it or not. And you might consider doing just a bit more research on the alcohol issue before you choose to, as you said, "stir up some shit."

Jozrael

You're quoting one person and talking to another, mate.

Jinn

Big difference between 'native born American' and 'Native American.'

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roachboy

i don't understand why the responses to this thread could not have been anticipated and what the underlying problem that lay behind the op is.

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it make you sick.

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Aladdin Sane

Every ethnic group ought to call itself what it likes.

My work presents me with the opportunity to talk with Indian leaders from different regions of the United States. I've never met one who called himself a "Native American." As a matter of fact, an Indian professor from Michigan recently told me the appellation was "just the latest example of colonialism and paternalism toward us on the part of the white man." He said "we're 'Indians,' goddammit! Stop trying to impose your sensibilities on others, because we don't share them." He went on to say that "Native American is an invention of the ivory tower," and he "had not once heard tribal elders use the term."

My family has been in Texas for seven generations. That fact has earned me the right to call myself a Native Texan.

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skizziks

I was just wondering why we do what we do. Seems we've done it for so long, "because that is the way it is," we are reluctant to change things. I seriously have a problem with dividing people up based off ethnicity. I don't see why it matters anymore. I don't want to take away cultural heritage, I just don't see why we have to categorize people based off heritage. Why can't we just either be "American" or "non-American." Saying someone is Native American but I'm not, to me, somehow means, to me, I'm not as American as they are, when I was born here just like they were.
-----Added 5/10/2008 at 12 : 39 : 28-----
Wow, that is interesting. I thought the term Indian was somehow derogatory, or at best a misnomer.

Zeraph

Just wanted to throw in the whole "African-American" living in Britain (or somewhere else not American). They aren't Africans, and they aren't Americans. The system is stupid for other people too, not just us whiteys in America.

filtherton

I know, right?

It's like, why do we call them British Thermal Units when they're heating American homes? Shit's whack, man.

roachboy

whack.
that's the word i was looking for.
but if you want to use "whack" in that sense, that is in the backpack/filtherton sense, you have to do it in the context of sentences like:
"shit's whack, man."

the tyranny of it all.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Fohur2

In Canada the term First People or First nations (Does not include Metis or Inuit) and Native are used.

Vigilante

I know, and there is the possibility of some early europeans coming over along the atlantic ice route too and interbreeding. Some animals had to cross however, and they didn't have boats, so I suspect both could have played a factor. Just my opinion.

Ha, my firefox ignored it as well, funny.

But on mongoloid, more nitpicking IMO. If I go out and say my great great great grandmother was mongoloid in reference to a conversation about native heritage, 99.999 percent of people would look at me like a freak. When in Rome, say Native American. When in the presence of tightass nitpickers, say mongoloid migrants. Even anthropologists don't distinguish, and if they don't, neither will I. Plus they aren't truly mongoloid anymore, because 10-20K years of relative genetic isolation has allowed for some subtle changes.

Actually, I had a Nez Perce roommate, and he couldn't hold shit down. Period. That's subjective however. There are genetic studies that show the other cultures that produced alcohol kept up genetically, and native americans didn't.

A simple google search yielded this:
One of the most deeply ingrained stereotypes about American Indian life is that all Native American are alcoholics

Maybe you should do some research yourself. If you found my statement offensive, maybe you should understand that it was my definition, which naturally implies some undefined subjective standard. The data, however, is objective in nature. And maybe you should lay off the liquor for a bit too, since you think I said "stir up some shit", which I obviously didn't.

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World's King

I was at a party in high school...


This guy was talking about being part Native American... how hard it was. Or something like that. And out of nowhere this girl I was kind of dating said, "I know you're not Native American. You're not drunk and poor."

Needless to say... I slept with her that night.

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filtherton

Man....

White people be crazy.

curiousbear

Americans are really funny that way (no offense intended). You call people from other countries as 'Aliens' in documents. And you worry whether you are 'native american' or 'native born american'?

I always thought Native American refers to people whose ancestors lived in American Continent even before the Whites (or europeans) discovered and OCCUPIED the continent.
-----Added 6/10/2008 at 12 : 27 : 48-----
I am completely SURPRISED. I thought the 'Indians' name was given by Colombus to the Native Americans. I evern vaguely remember that name was given becuase Colombus thought he discovered India when he actually landed in America.

telekinetic

Because words mean things.

If you are unfamiliar with your heritage, you could go with Caucasian, Germanic, Anglo-Saxon, Eurotrash...take your pick!

-----Added 6/10/2008 at 12 : 44 : 01-----
You shouldn't park on your driveway. Driveways are what you drive on to get to your garage. If you park on it it is called a 'parking spot'

As for parkway, the definition of park being "to make a car stationary" is pretty narrow. The broader definition means 'a place set aside for a specific purpose'. A parkway is an area set apart for you to drive through.
-----Added 6/10/2008 at 12 : 46 : 30-----
My wife is Navajo, and I have never heard her or her family call anything 'Indian'...it's not even "Native American," just "native" (native paintings, native beadwork, "is her husband native?")...so....YMMV.

ItWasMe

Give it time. Terms change. When I was very little, I never heard the term 'native american.' I heard the term 'indian.' Now Indian usually means someone from India.

I'm native Oregonian. Oregon is in America, but I'm not considered Native American. Okay, bad example, since I actually am part native american. But in general Native Oregonians are not Native Americans. Funny wording.

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Aladdin Sane

You are correct-- Indian was the name given by Columbus. A member of the Cherokee nation told me his people believe "Indian" was originally the Latin "in deus" meaning "with God" or "in God." In any case, after 500 year of being called Indian, and Indians accepting the name as their own, many Indians refuse to go along with yet another white cultural imposition.

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Charlatan

Language is a funny thing.

Meanings shift and drift over time.

Labels get applied.

What was once derogatory can be reclaimed.

Language is a funny thing.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
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curiousbear

Charlatan, not just langauge! Culture, habits and almost everything. Things change with time.
Imagine people were punished in court for same-sex relationships in past.
I know a time in a country when girls desiring to wear a bra was punished by her own people...
Coloring hair with dyes were considered INDECENT in certain communities...

We must be flexible and tolerant to the differences. If possible we should just admire the differences. That is what I do. And that is what makes my travel and exposure to the rest of the world interesting. Now what I am working on is to retain what I am while I explore ... I just dont want to get lost ...

Rekna

It is hard to call them Indians anymore because Indians are from India....

mcgeedo

As I read throuh many of the relationship issue threads here, I often think "why don't they just talk with each other." Reading this thread, I wonder "Why don't you just ask an Indian?"

Charlatan

Because depending on who you speak with they will also provide different answers.

One example above says, "Call us Indians!"

Another will say, "Call us native."

And another will say, "Call me Cherokee."


I completely agree. Despite what some of the most conservative types would have happen... culture, language, politics, laws do progress.

And in that change (particularly in times of transition) there is often a lot of confusion and unrest.

It is just the way of things. They change.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke