silent_jay

No exceptions you say? Guess being a waiter or waitress is like a carte blanche to do anything you want. I may have to change jobs.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

sapiens

I agree. I don't think that tipping is outrageous. Yes, wait staff could be paid more. Those costs would then be built into the prices on the menu. Ideally, the tipping option provides a benefit to both the worker and the consumer. The better wait staff get better tips, and the consumers get better service because wait staff are paid based on performance. Tipping gives the consumer a say.

Martian

I still don't understand how this is my problem. Maybe I am an asshole for not buying the whole sympathy argument. If that's the case, I'm comfortable with it. It's unfortunate that they don't get a proper wage; on the other hand, I'm not the one who set their wage so low. I don't see how I'm responsible to make up the difference.

Food service is unskilled labour. There are very few people who can't wait tables. Expecting exorbitant amounts of money for a job almost anyone can do is unreasonable. That said, $2.50 an hour is a slave wage and it's unfortunate that these people get paid so little. If I could change the laws and see to it that they were fairly compensated for their labour, I'd do it in a heartbeat. On the other hand, expecting me to make up the difference out of my own pocket is a bit absurd.

I've done some busking before to make a bit of extra cash, and it's my opinion that that is the job where you really see the best and worst of people. A busker's pay is directly related to the quality of his performance; passers-by don't feel the need to throw a dollar in the case just for the privelege of walking past. You may argue that it's a different situation, but I don't think it really is. Both are gratuities. The only difference is some arbitrary rule that the person who brings me my dinner is somehow automatically deserving of extra compensation.

I don't think of myself as any better than these people. Any job is better than no job, and I can get behind that. If waiting tables is all you're qualified for, then it's better that than unemployment. But if your employer isn't paying you enough to do it, I'd strongly suggest seeking employment elsewhere. 'Won't somebody think of the waiter's children?!' is not a sound argument.

Wouldn't it go the other way? Wait staff here get a higher hourly wage. As they're not dependent on our tips to live, we can leave a tip that directly reflects the level of service received. Therefore, I would expect that the person serving me at a restaurant would work harder for a tip, since it isn't mandatory.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

sapiens

I'm not sure that I buy the sympathy argument either.

Ideally, wait staff get the proper wage. That proper wage is made up of an hourly wage provided by the employer and a tip (based on performance) provided by the consumer. You, as the consumer, aren't making up the difference. Your contribution is part of the proper wage. You get to decide the wage paid for services based on your assessment of those services. (Rather than paying via an increase in prices whatever the employer decides to pay their employees).

blahblah454

I normaly tip anywhere from 15-30% depending on food and service. Amazing food and Amazing service can get as high as 40% from me if I am with friends. Throwing in a 5 each for a tip is no big deal (on a 10 dollar meal each, thats 50%).

But on the other hand if the food is terrible, the service is bad, the waiters/cooks are jackasses, the place is dirty, employees are standing around being fuckers. I will tip 1 penny. If I am miserable the entire time and can't wait to get the hell out of there I generally just eat and get out as fast as is humanly possible, and leave a 1 cent tip to let them know they are fucking assholes.

Martian

Which is all well and good, except that making sure the wait staff get a proper wage isn't my responsibility as a consumer. That's between the employee and the employer, and if the employee is unsatisfied with what their employer is paying they're free to seek employment elsewhere. Jobs at Walmart or in grocery stores are no harder to get and don't pay abysmally low wages. They may not pay good wages, exactly, but that's the nature of the beast when performing unskilled labour.

As to the argument about a tip reflecting service, I refer you to my rebuttal of Ustwo above. If the wait staff are getting paid a reasonable wage I'm free to leave a tip that directly reflects the level of service given. The wait staff, in turn, will work harder for my tip, since I'm not required to leave one. I've had some pretty poor service in my day (and tipped accordingly), but I have never once been forced to wait an hour or more for my food.

Expecting tips to meet minimum wage is fucked up. A tip is a gratuity, a gift left for above average service. If the service is poor, the tip is poor or non-existent and I don't care how little the wait staff is paid. It's not my fault.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

blahblah454

wait... what the hell? Where do you live? The lowest wage I have ever heard a waiter making here is around $8/hour (in the last 2 years) at a shitty restaurant. People who work at nice restaurants make about $12+/hour. Plus tips on top of that. Lets put it this way, I know a guy who was a welder making about $20 an hour and he quit to become a waiter. He made the same amount of money overall being a waiter and he met lots of girls who he then slept with. He worked at Boston Pizza, thats just your average joe restaurant.

genuinegirly

I go to a restaurant to study before exams. I sit there for 5+ hours with a bowl of soup, some crackers, and a glass of water with lemon. My bill is usually under $5. I leave a $20 since I just monopolized a table for an unreasonable amount of time.


Two of my roomates worked at a higher-end Italian cuisine establishment in Utah making $2.50/hour + tips from the years 2000 - 2003. It was pretty much the standard for any restaurant out there to pay just as poorly. Most states currently have a significantly lower minimum wage for servers.

__________________
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"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Destrox

Thats a United States of America standard set Federal Government rate.

Many employers use it because they can pay bottom dollar, and earn maximum cash.

Its one of many things that need to be killed.

Raise the prices 15% on all food, so long as the wait staff and bus's get paid more directly from it.

I wont see any difference since I pay that on the min, just the assholes out there will be hurt by it.

Edit**

Details for my state:

Minimum Wage Rate: $7.15 per hour Effective July 1, 2007. $7.25 per hour Effective July 24, 2009. (Except as Described Below and Within)

Tipped Employees: An employer may pay a minimum of $2.83 per hour to an employee who makes $30.00 per month in tips. The employer must make up the difference if the tips and $2.83 do not meet the regular Pennsylvania minimum wage.

In the end you can now earn minimum wage, but very few ever do. Its easy to make above and beyond min wage as a waiter. You just get the occasional schmuck here and there who feels they don't need to tip.

__________________
You bore me.... next.

Martian

So if I'm understanding that correctly, in Pennsylvania if a waiter doesn't make minimum wage based on $2.83/hour+tips, the employer will be forced to pay the employee minimum wage anyway? Is the argument, then, that the employee deserves more than minimum wage regardless of service rendered?

Why not just pay the employees minimum wage and skip all the hassle? After all, the whole point of setting a minimum wage is to make sure that all employees receive reasonable compensation for their work. Creating a sub-group who can be paid less than minimum wage defeats the purpose of having one.

From what I can see, the arguments for mandatory tipping here are either emotionally driven or based on the argument that mandatory tipping ensures better service, despite the fact that the server is entitled to a gratuity regardless of the level of service received. The second argument is flawed, as a tip that reflects the service given creates a direct feedback loop that causes servers to work harder for their gratuity. For the first argument, see my title. I don't care. I'm not crying for the servers. If they're not getting paid enough, they're the ones who need to do something about it. Not me.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Ustwo

Only an idiot would be a waiter for minimum wage. The trick is getting more than minimum wage and also insuring that the employee still makes it.

The reason anyone who doesn't suck as a waiter doesn't like straight payment is that they can make MORE if they are good at their job.

You take away tipping and no I'd not have made sure your dining experience was as pleasurable as possible, I'll be in the back hitting on the women who work with me, shame your burger is cold.

__________________
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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Tully Mars

I don't have much to add to the tipping conversation other to say I tip well unless the service sucks. If it sucks I leave 15% and if it really sucks I leave a single dollar, regardless of total. I'm in my forties and can count on one hand the times I've done that.

But I really just popped in here because you hit a nerve here with me regarding your comments of US citizens traveling aboard. I've traveled a lot and I currently live in Mexico. If I walk out my front door and take a left for about 100 yards I can see if the cruise ships are in yet. So, yes it's tourist area. And I think US citizens should have to pass a test to leave the country. In the past six months I've over heard such classic comments as "how much is this in real money?' "This looks like it could be a nice place if it weren't for all the Mexicans." And one of my favorites to date- "Out of my way," as the 250lbs lady smashes her way to the front of a line, "I'm from Texas!"

And just about every drunk teenager just knows the waitress is "available" for a price and he has no qualms about asking her what that price is.

If you weren't from the US you'd have to conclude learning to stand in the way blocking the rest of the world in places such as cross walks, side walks, bus stops and store lanes must be a required in school in the US.

And if you're from the US standing in line is not for you, just barge directly to the front regardless of the situation.

I've had friends and family down repeatedly and I've all but given up on the popular Mayan ruin sites like Chichen Itza. Chechen Izta is a wide open area of about 5 square miles. In the entire area there are about six or seven spots where, if you really try, you can completely stop the flow of people. In these spots you will undoubtedly find either family from California trying to read an upside down map, a couple from Idaho eating their resort packed box lunch or a family of six from New Jersey debating whether they'd already seen the really big pyramid. Granted these are only a couple examples but I'm sure I'll be blessed with more every time I run into large groups of US citizens. It's aggravating and embarrassing all at the same time.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Ustwo

Tully Mars - You don't know what offensive behavior is until you are on a slow elevator full of French tourists in the summer.

Some things can't be unsmelt.

I had a cousin who was a park ranger and he several times had to stop European tourists from trying to pet the bears.

While I'm sure, due to a lack of interactions with a lot of other nations for the average citizen the average US tourist is worse, I think being an ignorant obnoxious tourist is one of the planets universals.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Martian

So if the waiter already makes more than minimum wage, there's really no difference to the customer if the employer pays his waitstaff minimum wage and raises the price of the goods 15% or so to make up the difference. And if the wait staff prefers to get paid an abysmally (and criminally, in just about every other developed nation) low wage on the basis that tips will more than make up the difference, then I don't see what all the fuss and bother is about. There is no place that I'm aware of where tipping is an enforced requirement. As a famous writer once said, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

You're skewing the argument. I'm not saying that all tips should be eliminated. I'm saying that regarding a tip as anything other than a bonus provided for service rendered is fundamentally flawed. Again, I'm not responsible for making sure wait staff get paid enough. I will gladly tip an amount that I feel reflects the quality of service. If the service is good, the tip is good. If the service is poor, the tip is poor. Creating some arbitrary floor on the tip amount does not encourage wait staff to work hard, since they know they'll be getting X amount anyway.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Tully Mars

Well, there's a big sign outside Yellowstone stating "Grizzly Bears are dangerous, do not approach" I'm assuming it's not just there for the Europeans. And I heard a lady near the main lodge one day ask a ranger "What time do they put the animals up for the night?" She didn't sound French.

But at least all that's in the US. When you travel use some f'ing common sense.

Of course I've seen other nationalities act absurd as well. I remember being at MIA one day not long after 9-11 waiting in line at security. I watched and listened as the TSA agent politely asked a lady to remove her shoes. In a thick Italian accent she exclaimed "These shoes are Italian and I don't remove them for just anyone." Last I saw of her they were taking her behind a nice white screen, I swear I heard a surgical glove snap.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Lasereth

Ok Mr. Sensationalism!

I think it's obvious that I meant if you're rude because of late food, pickles on sandwich, etc.

silent_jay

That would be a great wrestling handle.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Aladdin Sane

My, my, my. Hasn't Host created a firestorm. Nothing new there.

The most obvious thread running through this discussion is wounded Canadian pride. Really guys, you shouldn't fret. We know it is important to you to be loved by the world. And the world still loves you, really they do--even if you are the planet's worst tippers.

One thing is for certain: this is the first time I've agreed with host about anything. Go figure.

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

surferlove007

I'm a picky tipper, I suppose it's because my dad is so picky and I've just gotten it from him. My mother on the other hand...the waiter could slap her in the face and spit on her and she'd still tip 20%. Her mother was a waitress for a while so I suppose that it why my mother tips the way she does.

I went to a Japanese/Sushi restaurant the other night with my roommate and a friend. They seated us with some other friends they knew there rather quickly. From then on the service went down hill. It took them 15 minutes to get our drinks out to us, the waitress was rude, didn't offer me a refill until my food had been cooked and I was waiting on my check. The whole meal was awful, the food wasn't even good. I love Hibachi and was not impressed, been to over 50 Hibachi Restaurants in major cities across the south, so I know what's good. They overcharged me and took forever getting ANYTHING done. Very not impressed. There were about 3 waiters/waitresses manning 8 tables with 8 people a piece at each table. I left no tip and a note below saying "awful service, will not return."
Should of left a note saying: Heres a tip: "Serve Your Customers Better!"

That's probably one of the only times I have ever been so pissed off that I didn't tip. I also think they believe college students don't deserve the same time as the other people. Just ridiculous.

blahblah454

I guess I would rather be painted with the "I'm a bad tipper" brush than the "My country is nothing but fucking morons" brush.

I don't think that people should be forced to tip if they don't want to. If your server went the extra mile for you and the food was really good and you want to leave a nice big tip, well thats really nice of you. If your food was not any good and the waitress was a jerk then why should you be obligated to leave a tip? A tip is for good services rendered, if a 3 year old can give better service then you should not be given any money for what you have "accomplished". (IMO)

host

If you stop at the bar for a drink or three before you are escorted to a table in my section, as a courtesy to you, so that you are not subjected to the inconvenience of having to conduct more than one credit card transaction while patronizing our establishment, the amount you spent on drinks is transferred by your bartender, (your bar "tab") to the account of the server team you are seated in the dining room with.

You are not expected to leave a separate tip at the bar, if you accept the offer by your bartender to transfer your tab. 95 percent of the gross revenue in our establsihment, including tips, are paid by our patrons, via credit or debit/bank card transactions.

The gross amount including sales tax of your transfered bar tab is totaled nightly, with all other bar tabs transferred to tables assigned to us, is multiplied by .17, and that amount is deducted from our team's tip pool.

So, if you are seated at one of my tables and your tab of $50 is transfered from our bar to your combined bar and dining check, $8.50 is automatically deducted from our team's total daily tips. If you tip ten percent on the total bill, my partner and I end up paying $3.50 for your bar drinks, and if your total tab was $200 and you tipped us a total of $20, instead of the $40 tip we would predicatbly receive from local patrons (we lost the opportunity to serve them because you came into town and took their seats...)

...we end up with $11.50 for the "pleasure" of serving you, vs. $31.50 we would have received on the same amount from our regualr clientelle, plus the 3 percent, ($50 X .3 = $1.50) we would have received from the 20 percent tip, vs. the 17 percent tip we paid to the bar on your $50 bar tab transfer.

So we received the opportunity to serve you, and we grossed $11.50 froum your tip, vs., $33.00 on that same $200 check with the $50 bar tab in it, from the locals, and we sufffered the frustration of paying part of your bar tab.

The tips included in the 95 percent of transactions in our establishment that are "cashless", are paid to us weekly in a conventional paycheck. Payroll taxes are deducted identically to the way taxes on our $2.13 hourly wage are deducted.

We treat you with consideration, down to the detail of having a system intended to avoid you having to pay more than once, during your combined visit to our bar and our dining room.

There is no "alert" regarding any expected gratuity. Not on the wall, not printed in the menu. We have too high of a regard for you, our patrons, and too high of a regard for our own reputation and abilities, to ever mention or to print tipping or tipping guidelines. If we begin our business relationship with a low opinion of you, what does it speak to about us, an establishment patronized by less than the best cutomers?

Just as you are expected to make payments in the local currency or with credit cards honored in the country you are visiting, you are expected to "get up to speed" over a period of time, with how the dining relationship works. We don't discuss it with any of our patrons, we are literally at your
mercy. Our finest restaurants employ professional staffs. Do you want a 20year old university student helping you to choose a $200 bottle of cabernet, and then decanting and pouring it for you and your guests, or a professional with ten years experience and the familiarity of great American wines that frequent trips to Napa valley wineries and regular local tastings from wine distributors previewing, in house the newest available vintages and varietals, brings to your table.

We are instructed by our management and we agree to offer our best advice to you on our opinions of the best wines to accompany your menu selections and your varietal preference and not the most expensive. We want you to come back, and we want you to tell your friends how enjoyable your dining experience was.

At the fine dining level, "the business" is actually more of a venue to attract patrons who appreciate and regularly purchase high end, high mark up wine and champagne. We host famous and accomplished foreign and American patrons from all walks of life, from the hot football and basketball player to the cyclist Lance Armstrong and the statesman/cleric, from South Africa.

We enjoy a classless society in our best restaurants. You can come in and sit at the next table from a hollywood movie star or a prime minister. You can sit and sip your $2.00 ice tea next to the billionaire drinking the $750 a bottle, French Bordeaux.

I've asked you why you tip the way some of you do, and I've attempted to instruct you on our tipping customs and norms. Because I serve some of the most admired and accomplished people in the world, and received their praise and generous gratuities for the experiences I have helped them to enjoy, when you react by posting the insults some of you have, in that demeaning, "I am better than you are", tone, I know I am not the lowly creature you make me out to be.

I am a professional and I wait on many professional, well mannered, appreciative patrons. I work in a top level restaurant. The tipping arrangement, unspoken as it is, works well for us, more than ninety percent
of the time.

A set hourly wage rate would not suit the best and most experienced of my colleagues. Our culinary school trained chef, his kitchen staff, and our hospitality school trained managers, all work for a set rate of pay each day, negotiated and agreed upon in advance. No tip that you decide to leave is partly distributed to them, and they do not expect it.

This thread was inspired by an OP in another thread, authored by someone who was unaware of the origins of references by service staff in US restaurants to "Canadians". I don't condone stereotypes, but I understand how they come about.

When I worked in another city, a member of the local Canadian consul's office was a regular patron. When he was presented with his bill, he always provided a credit card and his Canadian diplomatic I.D., and instructed me to remove the sales tax from his bill, stating that he was exempted from having to pay it. The process required to remove the tax required contacting a manager and took several minutes to accomplish. This gentleman routinely tipped just ten percent on the total amount, after the tax was removed.

I never got the impression that his regular request to remove the tax was a stereotypical act by Canadian diplomats, but his tipping pattern was similar to what experience in the business had taught me.

I read calls for changing how we are compensated for serving you, and a myriad of opinions predicting why you would deduct from the upper limit of the amount you would tip for service. I know that no other method of compensating the best servers at the highest rated establishments would do justice to the level of service that they provide. Have you ever requested a round of drinks for you and your guests of your favorite "top shelf" beverage only to be told that it is unavailable at the bar, but, if you can put up with a brief delay, a member of your service team will be sent to a nearby liquor store to purchase it for you, from funds out of his own pocket, and after he returns pours all of your drinks, and has presented you with the bottle and its remaining contents, and your dinner bill, and after you've noticed and brought to your servers' attention, the ommission from your itemized bill, of the charge for the bottle or the drinks poured from it, only to be told by your server, there is no charge for it tonight sir, "it is on us"?

I've seen it happen, and many other inspriring gestures from both patrons and their servers. At what level dining experience, would you determine that a higher hourly wage, "built into the menu prices", compared to the way the best servers at the best restaurants are compensated, would be "good enough"? Where do you suppose those servers who are the best, working at the best places, came from?

Maybe from the restaurant you dine in this evening. I see too many of you posting in ways that are intended to shortchange me, but actually you are shortchanging yourselves, in ways you may not yet have enjoyed the life experience to appreciate.

Criticism of the obnoxious ways that American tourists conduct themselves in during foreign travel, are common in this thread, but there is an absence of opinion posted that these obnoxious tourists ever send home the employees of the businesses who host and serve them in those countries, poorer than they would have been if those Americans tourists had not patronized the businesses where those employees worked, that day.

The core of my communication to you is, because of my experiences dealing with some of your countrymen, I do not expect much from you, in exchange for providing you with the best service and overall dining experience I am able to. It isn't your fault, and I am not blaming you, but....now that I and others have explained to you why we have acquired such low expectations. you are responsible for how you react to the information we've shared with you.

highthief

Basically - no one here takes a tip for granted. Most people leave 15% for decent service - the best servers get more from most people because they actually try harder rather than expecting a hand out.

I love the way we're all "assholes" for daring to suggest rewarding good service and punishing bad.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Stoked

Screwy.
That about sums up my feelings on tipping in America.

Surely a professional such as your self should be highly valued by your employer, and rewarded with financial compensation on par with the abilities you have?

__________________
If kittens didn't want to be eaten why do they look so delicious?

Leto

I had the same reaction... $2.50 / hr???? wtf?? that's gotta be illegal. But then I constantly read about the scale from several posters in this thread and I guess it is quite common (albeit shocking) in several US states...
Casts a different light on the angst presented by some of our American friends.


huh? where did you distill that from?

fresnelly

That's an interesting point because it reveals more about what motivates service staff. Travelling in Italy and France, where tipping is built into the bill and not expected, for the most part we received excellent service.

I would say that the staff in these countries was motivated instead by the two following factors:

1.) Pride of place and workmanship.
2.) Chemistry with the customer.

This would explain why horrible service can always be found in Tourist trap restaurants, where out of place, distracted tourists meet disenfranchised waiters. It's the same for the bottom-line driven restaurants found in Hotels and Airports.

So it is possible to remove tipping from the equation and still have excellent service. You just have to have an elevated stature for service jobs and skills. Good luck with that though.

__________________
Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

Ustwo

Yea thats about it, and yea this is the first time I have to agree with host on anything, ever.

Based on how cold it is in Chicago perhaps hell hath frozen over indeed.

Bitchy Canadians in the thread: You are lousy tippers, you don't have to like our system but its how its done, you now know better, if you continue to act like you are in Canada while in the US it just makes you an ugly tourist type.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Leto

Okay, I'm a fairly level headed guy. But I'm starting to get annoyed with the Pot calling the kettle black.

Sharon

host, I've worked as a waitress here in the UK for many years (only stopping recently when I moved), and I'd just like to say that I'd never been full aware of the elaborate tipping system you have in America as you detailed a few posts up. I'd like to suggest that it's very possible that many visitors to America simply aren't aware of the complexities of the system. Hell, it sounds to me like many Americans aren't fully aware of the intricacies of the tipping system.

I know you say foreigners should research American culture visiting, but American culture is one of the most publicised around the world through the media, movies etc, and a lot of what many people know about America and its values and cultural systems is learnt through the media. Naturally we assume everything we need to know is there. Strangely, tipping isn't covered a lot (or if it is, it assumes the viewer already knows about it).

JamesB

You get what you earn.

When I joined the military I was paid $45cdn per -day- and trust me .. you earned EVERY hour's worth. That equates to $1.87 per hour. So piss off about not getting enough $$ when receiving a tip.

__________________
-- apt-get install spare_time --

silent_jay

Pot, this is kettle com check over. Is this the same America talking about learning another countries system, fuckin hilarious, oh darn an ugly tourist type, better to be referred to that than as an American.

Guess being an asshat and not knowing what the hell you're doing is rewarded in America, wait of course it is, look at the man in charge.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

highthief

Well, if host, ustwo and a few waiters are now mad at us, our work here is done, fellow Canucks.

(Wait til we tell them Obama is secretly a Canadian!)

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

silent_jay

They just don't get it, all we're trying to do is bring host and ustwo closer, and look they're already agreeing.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Martian

host.

First of all, I won't quote relevant sections, as that's quite the dissertation.

But what I'm wondering here is why complain so much about Canadians? Contrary to belief expressed above I'm not about Canadian pride in this thread; I just look at your system and I think it's screwed up. My opinion. On the other hand, there are cheapskate Americans out there as well. Some of your countrymen have admitted to tipping 10% or less in this very thread. Do you really see so many Canadians at your fine dining establishment in Georgia (nearly 1000 miles south of the border) that you feel the need to make the distinction?

For the record, if my server personally went to the liquor store in order to insure that I was able to drink my wine of choice, you can damn well bet that I'd tip more than 20%. That definitely qualifies as 'above and beyond'. On the other hand, like a great many people I do feel the tip should reflect the quality of service. I understand that you need those tips to live, but as I've pointed out above that's a system I don't agree with. If you don't agree with it either it's up to you to be the instrument of change. However, if you do agree with it (as seems to be the case), isn't it a situation of taking the good with the bad? If you would prefer that the bulk of your pay come through optional gratuities based on the premise that you can do better that way then if you were paid a proper wage, then it would seem only natural to me to expect that some of your patrons are going to abuse the system by paying less than you feel you're entitled to, or maybe even not paying at all. You can't have it both ways; if you're content to work for a slave wage and subsist on handouts, you have to accept that those handouts may not be what you expected. If you're not able to do that, maybe the current system doesn't suit you as well as you thought it did.

In other words, what the hell are you complaining about?

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Ace_O_Spades

We're Canadian... We're all just cheap hippy commie leftist pacifist socialist ignorant bumbling buffoons. We're like the fuck-up kid brother that they feel the need to pat on the head and say, "Now have you learned your lesson? Go get'em champ!" without realizing the hypocricy of the statement:
"if you continue to act like you are in Canada while in the US it just makes you an ugly tourist type."

Thanks for the morning laugh, ustwo. You're rather good at it.

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Feh.

canuckguy

this killed me! lol

awesome!

oops i messed up the quote thingy and have to jet back to the office. sorry.

still you owe me a new keyboard!

blahblah454

I think this pretty much sums it all up perfectly. So the "shitty average tip" from us must be from the "average server". makes sense to me. you want to make more money, do a better job.

Daval

ROFL

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"It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don't believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it."
Winston Churchill

host

A thank you to all non US posters who have responded to the idiosyncracies of the base wage and tipping custom/dynamics as they happen to be, here in the US, after several of us have described them to you.

That said, I have several observations to share about the reactions of a good many of you, including Americans who I have the good fortune not to have had to serve very often.

Some of you must be dining in some extremely mediocre restaurants, judging by your comments.

If you read the articles in the OP, they support my contention about the differences in tipping percentages in some US cities and the average tip prevalent in Canada.

The response to this data and to the thread title question was and continues to be a litany of complaints about bad service experiences, threats to tip lower in the future in reactiiin to anticipated bad service, and insulting and condascending remarks directed towards me and at others who have posted similarly to what I have posted.

At the end of it all, I am left with the impression in the article in the OP....no one has posted any link to data suggesting that average Canadian tips are higher than 15 percent, yet material exists....as I posted in the OP that supports higher average tipping percentages in the US, more than 25 percent higher than 15 percent.

Unless some new information is posted to change my impression, so far I am left to expect that if you come to my restaurant and have a drink at the bar and then dinner at one of my tables, even though it is the best of the best, I can expect that you will regard me as someone working at a menial task, akin to a beggar, and if I do everything absolutely to your satisfaction in serving you, I can look forward to, despite the details I have shared witg you, receiving a 15 percent tip from you, resulting in my service team paying our bar 2 percent of your drink tab.
I shudder to think how the experience of serving you in a restarant the next rung down, and lower will be. I thought it was a matter of informing you, but .....

Ustwo

One thing is abundantly clear from this thread, a lot of Canadians are assholes.

Its interesting when a country barely able to fund its wonderful healthcare system and beloved by the world since its powerless to do anything, even help out its own citizens abroad, can be just as arrogant as the citizens of a superpower.

So apparently being an asshole is universal, and in that case I'll take being an asshole American over an asshole Canadian any day.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

silent_jay

Anything we post isn't going to change your mind, you're the best cut and paste man on the board, you'll just find another 'study' to support your opinion and nothing will change.

Like I said before if you're not happy with 15%, give it back I can use it, otherwise be thankful you got what you got and don't look a gift horse in the mouth, like I said before, the alternative is you couldn't have gotten fuck all.

Yawn and it's the usual ustwo threadjack to healthcare. So if you're a superpower it gives you a right to be arrogant? Thanks for that, helps me understand things a whole lot more

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder