How important is the TFP Politics board?

[pan6467]

Very simple question. Kind of goes with the other thread I created on what will bring you to (or back) to TFP Politics.

Been awhile since I've done the poll thingy I guess.....

1: It is very important and can bring in new, active and interesting members

2: It has it's place but doesn't affect overall membership

3: Has it's place and I wouldn't mind getting active in it if there seemed to be more true debate and sharing of ideas and views instead of fighting

4: I love to watch the fights but it's not for me and I just wouldn't post there ever and it has no affect on membership

5: Don't care...... I just come for titties and a laugh.... If I want to talk politics I'll go elsewhere.

[analog]

...and this is a discussion... how?

[ratbastid]

You know, I'm increasingly of the opinion that Tilted Politics makes zero difference in the actual world. There was a time when I thought that my activity there altered something outside TFP itself. Now I'm pretty certain it doesn't.

[JumpinJesus]

While this thread is better in it's approach than the other one you've started, I still don't see the relevance of it.

There are millions - if not billions - of political discussion boards already in existence. We run the risk of having an overinflated sense of importance if we feel that ours is somehow distinctive enough to be a draw for new membership. Ours is no different than the others, even though some of us may wish to believe we're more intelligent or high-brow than the others.

Politics is what it is. It's much larger than any of our egos and will continue on in much the same fashion long after we're compost.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

While this thread is better in it's approach than the other one you've started, I still don't see the relevance of it.

There are millions - if not billions - of political discussion boards already in existence. We run the risk of having an overinflated sense of importance if we feel that ours is somehow distinctive enough to be a draw for new membership. Ours is no different than the others, even though some of us may wish to believe we're more intelligent or high-brow than the others.

Politics is what it is. It's much larger than any of our egos and will continue on in much the same fashion long after we're compost.

I don't think it's of great outer importance, but I do believe that it is or rather was unique in that while there were fights, both sides were able to have their say and get their point across. That is rare and something that TFP could be proud over.

I first came to TFP for the titties but back then you had to make a quota number of quality posts. I looked around and I fell in love with the Politics board here and forgot about the titties quota. It was fun, we fought like Hell but at the end of the day it grew. The board attracted people to post.

Anyone can theorize why it died or is dying, they can say it's cyclical, but if it's not growing and if everything becomes the same argument there the end result will be no one new will post there.

Originally Posted by ratbastid

You know, I'm increasingly of the opinion that Tilted Politics makes zero difference in the actual world. There was a time when I thought that my activity there altered something outside TFP itself. Now I'm pretty certain it doesn't.

It doesn't, but it gives you the chance to learn other's perspectives to actually have to think out yours when you type it thereby cementing your views deeper or shaking them up..... it is what it is. And it can alter things outside. Your view and passion and debate on a certain issue may help someone, even 1 person take a stand and change their view and their vote. Maybe, maybe not but to say it has absolutely no effect.... I don't know if I could agree with that.

[Halx]

A place is only relevant if you USE it to make real world change. You cant sit around discussing politics ad nauseum and just look at it and go, "Is this important?" Of course not! You need to be the one doing the work, looking at your reference (the board) and then you can ask if its important or not.

That's the problem with all these veterans sitting around and yakking about how the Tilted ______ is dieing. They're just SITTING AROUND. I say put up or shut up about how its going down.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by Halx

A place is only relevant if you USE it to make real world change. You cant sit around discussing politics ad nauseum and just look at it and go, "Is this important?" Of course not! You need to be the one doing the work, looking at your reference (the board) and then you can ask if its important or not.

That's the problem with all these veterans sitting around and yakking about how the Tilted ______ is dieing. They're just SITTING AROUND. I say put up or shut up about how its going down.

That is what I'm trying to do here with these 2 threads. I wanted people's voices so that maybe perhaps things could be done to allow growth again.

I also just posted the poll no discussion in the OP because I wanted the poll to be as unbiased as I could possibly make it.

And yes, I agree you must take action as well as just speaking out, in any aspect of life not just politics.

[Baraka_Guru]

I generally find that the politics threads tend to funnel into the regular presumptuous pigeonholing, while real debate is stifled by everyone taking their regular positions, which tend to reflect the sentiments of their favourite talking heads. Sometimes reminds me of CNN Crossfire.

I dunno, maybe it's just me.

[Aladdin Sane]

None of the options describe my opinion about the Politics board but #3 comes closest:
3: Has it's place and I wouldn't mind getting active in it if there seemed to be more true debate and sharing of ideas and views instead of fighting.

I came to TFP for the political discussion but I rarely venture there these days.
Why?
Because of self-inflated pomposity, that's why.
Because of vanity and hubris that knows no bounds, that's why.
Because of the consistent use of personal attacks, that's why.
Because of the contamination of every thread with ego-inspired hubris, that's why.
Because every thread is eventually polluted with multiple posts consisting of page after page copied from other websites, that's why. (Does anyone actually read that stuff?).
Because some personality types have no interest whatsoever in the actual give and take of friendly discussion, that’s why.
Because fragile egos require a "win" in every encounter, that's why.
Because of a narcissism that cannot bear the idea of being wrong, nor tolerate the existence of minds that have arrived at legitimate but different conclusions.
Because of a pettiness that strikes at every irrelevant comment but refuses to see the “big picture.”
Because of an inability to “let it go.”

You’re so vain; I bet you think this post is about you.

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity, that’s why.

[DDDDave]

^^ X 2

[Lasereth]

The discussion shouldn't be about whether the politics board (PB) changes anyone outside of TFP but whether it's useful to the TFP members. You could say the same about any of the forum sections on TFP.

The PB is pretty useless from my point of view because when it comes to politics, most people have made up their mind and won't (don't want to) see a topic any other way. Politics discussion isn't about politics oddly enough. It's about personality types and viewpoints. The difference between right and left and D and R isn't politics, it's simply personality types. So basically the PB is people trying to change other people's personality types. Not happening...so it just turns into fighting back and forth with each member honestly believing that the other members are mentally retarded.

[LoganSnake]

I wouldn't care one way or the other if it was gone. However, I've made my stance on this clear before.

[JumpinJesus]

Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane

None of the options describe my opinion about the Politics board but #3 comes closest:
3: Has it's place and I wouldn't mind getting active in it if there seemed to be more true debate and sharing of ideas and views instead of fighting.

I came to TFP for the political discussion but I rarely venture there these days.
Why?
Because of self-inflated pomposity, that's why.
Because of vanity and hubris that knows no bounds, that's why.
Because of the consistent use of personal attacks, that's why.
Because of the contamination of every thread with ego-inspired hubris, that's why.
Because every thread is eventually polluted with multiple posts consisting of page after page copied from other websites, that's why. (Does anyone actually read that stuff?).
Because some personality types have no interest whatsoever in the actual give and take of friendly discussion, that’s why.
Because fragile egos require a "win" in every encounter, that's why.
Because of a narcissism that cannot bear the idea of being wrong, nor tolerate the existence of minds that have arrived at legitimate but different conclusions.
Because of a pettiness that strikes at every irrelevant comment but refuses to see the “big picture.”
Because of an inability to “let it go.”

You’re so vain; I bet you think this post is about you.

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity, that’s why.

This reminds me of a favorite quote. It's by Albert Camus: "The need to be right is a sign of a vulgar mind."

[sapiens]

I think that participation in the politics forum requires a great deal of investment of thought and time. Unfortunately, I don’t have the time to post there. However, I appreciate the amount of time and effort that many of the people in the politics forum put into their posts. I enjoy reading well-thought out arguments that include both evidence and analysis. The investment of thought and time required to post in the forum is one of its strengths. Personalities may occasionally clash and people may occasionally fall back on old arguments, but on the whole, I enjoy reading what people post there.

[grumpyolddude]

In 5+ years of casual observation, and meek attempts at participation, I cannot recall one adjusted position, one conceded point. I bailed out with a lasting impression of closed minds fiercely defending their preconceived notions. You can keep it.

[Borla]

Originally Posted by grumpyolddude

In 5+ years of casual observation, and meek attempts at participation, I cannot recall one adjusted position, one conceded point. I bailed out with a lasting impression of closed minds fiercely defending their preconceived notions. You can keep it.

That fits my impression of every political thread I've ever read on any message board ever. It eventually becomes a forum where the loudest shouters dominate, and no one's opinions or perspectives are altered in the least.

[Charlatan]

I've seen a few opinions changed and points conceded, but then I've probably spent a bit more time posting and reading in Politics than many...

That said, I will agree that "ego" (rather than vanity) is what appears to drive much of what is wrong with the Politics Forum today. There is an unwillingness to be respectful, even if you don't agree. There is an undertone of anger and belligerence that just turns people off.

It frustrates me because we have a number of people with some very interesting insights and many of the won't waste their time in the face of much of what occurs in that forum.

[Fotzlid]

Originally Posted by grumpyolddude

I bailed out with a lasting impression of closed minds fiercely defending their preconceived notions.

pretty much sums up every politics forums section i've seen too.
on the plus side, from what i've read here so far, this site isn't as bad as a lot of others.

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by Fotzlid

pretty much sums up every politics forums section i've seen too.
on the plus side, from what i've read here so far, this site isn't as bad as a lot of others.

Fotzlid is correct. I have participated in several others.

[Ustwo]

Maybe the real value of the politics board isn't to discuss politics, but as a quarantine for those who want to.

[Charlatan]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Maybe the real value of the politics board isn't to discuss politics, but as a quarantine for those who want to.

Quite possibly the truest thing said here.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Maybe the real value of the politics board isn't to discuss politics, but as a quarantine for those who want to.

I resemble..... I mean ......ummmm.......I resent that remark.

[host]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Maybe the real value of the politics board isn't to discuss politics, but as a quarantine for those who want to.

Explain why you are so negative about the politics thread and post what you think you bring to it, in your posts there, that improves it.

IMO, it is what you make it. It is a place to share "what you know", and how you come to "know" it. "What you know", should be what shapes your politcal opinions.

How can that process influence you to post words like "quarantine"? Why is there so much discussion about discussing political opinions. Post them, justify them, defend challenges to them. If you cannot successfully defend your opinions, concede to the stronger (better supported) opposing argument. Or should something else be happening at the politics forum?

[Willravel]

It concerns me when I concede a point and everyone acts surprised. Not one person in TFPolitics is right all the time. That includes YOU. If you're wrong own up to it or go sit in the corner, you big baby. That and stop getting so pissed off at other members. This is about discussion, not rabid debate.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by host

IMO, it is what you make it. It is a place to share "what you know", and how you come to "know" it. "What you know", should be what shapes your politcal opinions.

See, I have to disagree with this statement. Politics/religion/spirituality/philosophy etc. are based on theory, one's experiences, what one can see/feel or believe to be wrong or right. Sometimes one just says, "I feel this way....." or "In my opinion and belief I believe this..." They cannot always be put into words or explained because they just are. Or if put into those phrases "I believe this...", "In my opinion...." and one relates why, it never seems to be a "good enough" answer for others.

Let's say someone says they believe X to be true. Now, in the Politics thread, one is attacked right away and asked why, what proof do you have to believe in X.

This puts the person on the defensive right away because 99% of the time the question is asked accusingly and the writer is treated like they know nothing.

So the person posts in a defensive manner why they believe X to be true. Now, if it is because of experience, opinion or "based on just a feeling" they are really attacked. Out comes the articles, the belittling, the attacks on the person.

Instead of constructive conversation to help each other understand the other, the posts become about winning an argument not about sharing ideas. So the end result becomes either the original poster pushes back because no one showed enough respect to talk to the person as an adult and a person but rather put them immediately on the defensive, that person either leaves or becomes more defensive to the point they become aggressive. And then the possibility of any civilized give and take conversation is gone.

Also, if someone posts a bunch of articles from a biased source, for people to read, but does not add anything of their own (maybe a few sentences) then nothing is achieved either. The average poster/reader feels they can find their own sources to read based on their own bias, why comment on something that even the poster really doesn't comment on?

It's like if I post article after article saying that the KINKS were the greatest band ever.... but I never truly add anything substantive from myself, someone will post article after article of why they weren't with no commentary of their own and nothing is achieved. Or they'll get tired of hearing me say it and rebel against it even if they agreed at first (overkill).

My point is there has to be acceptance and respect of the other's basic premise and the desire, ability and care to communicate your views back to them, in order to truly move forward. Anything short of those and all you end with is nothing but anger, personal attacks and negativity towards the whole encounter.

It's not that hard to do:

Poster A: I believe there should be Universal Healthcare.....

Poster B: I understand but I don't see it working because of .......

Then A and B can discuss their opinions with posters C-Z being able to share their points of view and add constructively to the "debate".

I know when I have talked about this in the past, people say we can't change anything so why does it matter?

Well, if TFP is different and "more mature" than other boards, we can achieve a Politics Board that will gain much respect throughout and bring more good posters in for true debate, education and mind expansion.

If it continues the way it is.... few will reside there.

[analog]

I've always seen the politics forum as a giant circle jerk. Nothing is ever conceded, nothing ever seems to be truly "learned", as no one ever seems to be open to changing or expanding viewpoints.

I know a good number of people say "oh well I change opinions and learn all the time". Yeah, that's not really true. Maybe on tiny shit that never matters, but the big ones never change. I've never seen someone really change their mind on guns, abortion, immigration, their real political leanings, Iraq, Iran, etc., etc., etc.

Sometimes feelings broaden, like someone gets "looser" or "tighter" on gun control laws or immigration, but the real opinions never actually change.

At the very least, discussion is about learning from each other... Tilted Politics never, ever seems to be about more than people trying to prove they're right. That's not discussion. I don't really ever see actual discussion in there. It's mostly posturing, holding the party line, and trying to browbeat others into agreeing with them.

However, I still think our forum is more civil about it all than any other politics forum I've come across. That doesn't mean ours is important, but at least we have a fairly mature group of people (most of the time) who can manage to shove their opinions down others' throats with more civility than people on other sites.

[World's King]

Why are you people talking about why your talk about talking about stuff?

[host]

Originally Posted by pan6467

.....Also, if someone posts a bunch of articles from a biased source, for people to read, but does not add anything of their own (maybe a few sentences) then nothing is achieved either. The average poster/reader feels they can find their own sources to read based on their own bias, why comment on something that even the poster really doesn't comment on?....

pan, all information is not equal, and your entire premise, IMO, is contradicted by the entire history of discourse of American politics.

Some will regard even these linked pages as "biased".
http://www.google.com/search?q=host+...e=off&filter=0

How does your "formula" fit with debates on issues like WMD in Iraq, abolition of slavery in the U.S., or what is the appropriate way to react to a thread, posted on a politics forum, that is titled:

"Please take a moment to pause, and think of our Military overseas this Christmas" in a politcal environment where an appreciable number believe that most of the military "overseas" are involved in illegal occupations.

There is a reason that some people limit themselves to never discussing religion or politics in public. There is a reason why there is a separate "politics" forum at TFP.

It is a challenge to participate on a political discussion forum on the internet. The forum at TFP is already moderated. You propose to remove the challenge of participating.

Why not propose a new forum restricted to the discussion of political feelings? That way, the implications and consequences of "owning" (attempting to advance) a political opinion, need never be confronted, recognized, or fully considered.

Folks who want to "ban all abortion", need never be exposed to information about the consequences to poorer women of childbearing age, versus the lack of consequences of the ban to wealthy women who have the option of travel out of the jurisdiction of the ban, to obtain safe, skilled, sterile clinical abortion services....they can just "feel" their opinion without exposure to information that might make them have a choice of ignoring what it is that influences others involved in a discussion to THINK otherwise.

...And, they can "feel" their pro abortion ban opinion, on a new and improved TFP politics discussion forum. No thank you, pan.

[n0nsensical]

Originally Posted by pan6467

See, I have to disagree with this statement. Politics/religion/spirituality/philosophy etc. are based on theory, one's experiences, what one can see/feel or believe to be wrong or right. Sometimes one just says, "I feel this way....." or "In my opinion and belief I believe this..." They cannot always be put into words or explained because they just are. Or if put into those phrases "I believe this...", "In my opinion...." and one relates why, it never seems to be a "good enough" answer for others.

Let's say someone says they believe X to be true. Now, in the Politics thread, one is attacked right away and asked why, what proof do you have to believe in X.

This puts the person on the defensive right away because 99% of the time the question is asked accusingly and the writer is treated like they know nothing.

So the person posts in a defensive manner why they believe X to be true. Now, if it is because of experience, opinion or "based on just a feeling" they are really attacked. Out comes the articles, the belittling, the attacks on the person.

Instead of constructive conversation to help each other understand the other, the posts become about winning an argument not about sharing ideas. So the end result becomes either the original poster pushes back because no one showed enough respect to talk to the person as an adult and a person but rather put them immediately on the defensive, that person either leaves or becomes more defensive to the point they become aggressive. And then the possibility of any civilized give and take conversation is gone.

Also, if someone posts a bunch of articles from a biased source, for people to read, but does not add anything of their own (maybe a few sentences) then nothing is achieved either. The average poster/reader feels they can find their own sources to read based on their own bias, why comment on something that even the poster really doesn't comment on?

It's like if I post article after article saying that the KINKS were the greatest band ever.... but I never truly add anything substantive from myself, someone will post article after article of why they weren't with no commentary of their own and nothing is achieved. Or they'll get tired of hearing me say it and rebel against it even if they agreed at first (overkill).

but if someone simply "believes" something and doesn't want to discuss supporting evidence, then I don't understand the point in any discussion at all, nobody is going to accept outside input about what they believe and then the board is just everyone spouting off an opinion that no one else cares about. I don't think there is nearly that much room for belief in political discussion, that's religion and religion and politics do not mix. if you ask me that's basically the reason we have such shitty politicians (on both sides) in this country these days, is that all they want to talk about is beliefs and feelings (like think of the children!) and nobody's bringing up the FACTS.

My point is there has to be acceptance and respect of the other's basic premise and the desire, ability and care to communicate your views back to them, in order to truly move forward. Anything short of those and all you end with is nothing but anger, personal attacks and negativity towards the whole encounter.

It's not that hard to do:

Poster A: I believe there should be Universal Healthcare.....

Poster B: I understand but I don't see it working because of .......

Then A and B can discuss their opinions with posters C-Z being able to share their points of view and add constructively to the "debate".

I know when I have talked about this in the past, people say we can't change anything so why does it matter?

Well, if TFP is different and "more mature" than other boards, we can achieve a Politics Board that will gain much respect throughout and bring more good posters in for true debate, education and mind expansion.

If it continues the way it is.... few will reside there.

But I do agree with you here, that an attitude adjustment will certainly help. The board is flooded with arrogance and general lack of respect for other points of view. I just think it's better than not to leave space for facts and evidence. I'm not sure a new forum is the answer. Maybe people should be more prepared to back themselves up if that is truly a problem they have.

[Slims]

I don't think Tilted Politics makes any real difference, but it is a good way to hash out your particular point of view to see who agrees, and where your opinions fall short.

That being said, it would be far better if there was more debate and less wholesale article spamming.

If I am going to enter into a discussion about, say, social security, I want to hear the opinions of other TFPers rather than having to wade through a dozen articles about someone elses point of view that maybe are sort of related to the discussion.

[tecoyah]

Originally Posted by analog

...and this is a discussion... how?

Likely, the poll is meant to bring about a conversation intent on addressing underlying issues that detract from one of the interesting aspects of TFP. By doing so it is possible some members will become more active, or even adjust posting styles in an attempt to improve or redirect the flow of activity within the politics board.


-OR-

Pan was bored and simply wanted to make a poll.

[pig]

shit...the politics board is the way it is because most of the users who post there regularly want it that way....otherwise, it would be...different.

if you don't like another poster's style or attitude, i'd say ignore it and move on. if people want to talk about their feelings on an issue, or if they want to avoid substantiated debate, then just ignore the articles and have a micro discussion on that basis. this happens all the time on the boards, and some people will say that it's clique forming, but i don't see any substantial change in posting style coming about as a result...

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Maybe the real value of the politics board isn't to discuss politics, but as a quarantine for those who want to.

Originally Posted by host

Explain why you are so negative about the politics thread and post what you think you bring to it, in your posts there, that improves it.

IMO, it is what you make it. It is a place to share "what you know", and how you come to "know" it. "What you know", should be what shapes your politcal opinions.

How can that process influence you to post words like "quarantine"? Why is there so much discussion about discussing political opinions. Post them, justify them, defend challenges to them. If you cannot successfully defend your opinions, concede to the stronger (better supported) opposing argument. Or should something else be happening at the politics forum?

Host.
It was joke. You know...funny? Why does everything have to be so serious? All of time? If Ustwo, who is a major contributor to the politics board, can poke a little fun at himself...can't you come up to fence and share in bit of a chuckle?

My opinions are my own. They have been formed through 45 years of walking this planet, and seeing the things that I have seen. My opinions are not formed, nor are they swayed, by reading what some pundit has posted in a blog. I simly do not care. And just because I, or anyone else for that matter, may not find the time to dig up a dozen or so opinions that mirror our own, does not in any way mean that the argument should be conceded. All that means is that you probably have more time to research. Having more time does not necessarily make you right. You may be right. You may be wrong. You may only be expressing your own point of view. But posting a dozen supporting articles does not make you right or wrong.

[tecoyah]

I would like to suggest something for our politics board...and it is only a suggestion.

In an attempt to bring actual debate to the forum, perhaps we might try a new approach, one designed to set standards and rules for posting within a designated thread.

The standards might include limitations on length of back-up documentation, statement and rebuttal segments, verification of data sources....or whatever. Having seen this type of organized debate quite successful elsewhere, I would be interested in how it might fit into TFPolitics, and the way it would affect interaction between members.

As I stated, it is an Idea...what do you all think?

[n0nsensical]

Maybe say instead of copying whole articles you should post excerpts in the forum and links to the complete articles for the other people (which I'm guessing isn't very many) who want to read them. Like a research paper. Include the relevant quotations as support within your writing and cite them with a reference to the original.

[StanT]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Maybe the real value of the politics board isn't to discuss politics, but as a quarantine for those who want to.

Heaven forbid, I agree with Ustwo (even if he was just kidding).

I'm perfectly capable of researching conservative right wing view points, there is no shortage resources out there. Nor is there a shortage of liberal counterpoints. Linking page after page of talking points isn't a discussion, I can find them just fine on my own.

What's missing is any discussion or compromise.

I sometimes look at new topics to look for something new. I rarely read past the first page before I go off and research it on my own.

[filtherton]

From now on, instead of posting any sort of supporting information, i will just post a picture of my clenched fists.

Example:


Socialized medicine can work if properly funded and overseen. If you have any doubts, i would like to direct your attention to exhibit A:

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by filtherton

From now on, instead of posting any sort of supporting information, i will just post a picture of my clenched fists.

Example:


Socialized medicine can work if properly funded and overseen. If you have any doubts, i would like to direct your attention to exhibit A:

I agree with your argument, socialized medicine should have a lot of similarity with being anally double fisted, well done!

See we can all get along.

[Hain]

Politics board is a place where people work very hard at insulting others without them noticing.

[filtherton]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I agree with your argument, socialized medicine should have a lot of similarity with being anally double fisted, well done!

Yeah, but in a good way.