How important is the TFP Politics board?

[Aladdin Sane]

Originally Posted by pan6467

Sometimes some people ask a question the wrong way, but his opinion and the OP are just that, his opinion and question. So why not just let Conservatives answer like he wants, ignore the OP if it doesn't pertain to you and the thread will eventually die because the question got answered, opinions between parties shared and nothing more to say.

But by attacking it you draw attention to it and then it becomes a mess of disrespect, immaturity and shows those who may themselves want to attempt to ask questions what happens if others find their opinions or writing style less than or superfluous or just not worthy for whatever reason.

Allow people the right to express themselves without trying to intimidate them from doing so or running them out of the Politics Board.

This is exactly my point! Thank you for saying what I can only sputter.

[roachboy]

if you think that the game is stale, then make another one.
no-one is going to do it for you.
why wait around for some Authority to put something into motion?

there is no Authority.

we are collectively responsible for what we make.
if the game sucks, it's because we created a game that sucks.
it the game didn't suck at one point or another but now it does, much of the explanation for that lay in laziness--complacency--the willingness to accept the same old lame old instead of thinking.

politics is understood as a form of entertainment and entertainment should require of you no effort. the reduction of everything to one-dimensional entertainment is the dominant american way.

you reap what you sow.

=====
o yeah--

ustwo, darling:

if you don't like the way the forum works, then change it.
how about you start and end your efforts by working on your own lame-ass posts?
if you think for a second that you are not a HUGE part of what sucks about politics, then you are delusional.




like the lads from whitehouse said:
get yourself together chum.

[Hain]

@ pan6467:
The simple fact that there is so much mudslinging in T. Politics, I can't read through it fast enough to keep track of what is fact, lies, opinion, or otherwise.

Originally Posted by pan6467

Why must others jump in degrade, jump to conclusions, and turn his OP into something it was never meant to be.

His OP read exactly to me and others, "What will be the best way to fool democracy come November?"

I don't agree with the premise, voting Democrat and "pulling the lever for the person most likely to be defeatable in Nov." but that is his choice. It's a legitimate question and something that happens frequently in politics so it is nothing new. So why not allow Conservatives to answer his question and leave it alone?

Are we not allowed to show our outrage? I thought that was one of our rights and duties in a republic/democracy.

Why? Because you didn't like his question so you had to blow it out of the water with attacks and ways to change the OP's subject? That's just ego there and taking away a legitimate question and a man's right to openly express himself.

Ego... yeah I agree with that. Still, he doesn't have to respond to the answers he doesn't like.[/quote]I responded to his OP, in a manner more sarcastic that I needed to, which I will apologize for after completing this post. But, my opinions of that thread still exist.

Ahhh but there's the rub, some will argue that he shouldn't have posted in a public forum. Why? this is supposedly a community of friends and family, why should he not be able to ask his question unprovoked or harassed?

So far, the only parts of this forum that are off limits to other members would be ... the Ladies Lounge.

But why? Are you so insecure in your beliefs that you have to attack others beliefs?

Yes. I find something that makes me or I think is wrong, I stand up. If I am wrong, I apologize.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by silent_jay

I find it annoying, and the only reason he does it is to get a thread he doesn't agree with, or has no interest in off track, then funny thing is, he complains when other people troll his threads, or his posts.

I had to reread who this was about.... I thought you were talking about Host or well, actually it could apply to numerous people in that forum.

[loquitur]

I have started a total of one thread in the Politics forum. I have idiosyncratic political views, and I read voraciously because I generally try to challenge my preconceptions and see where I might have failed to consider something. So I posted an OP that asked why economic inequality is such a cause celebre for so many people, even though in this country poor people generally have enough food, have shelter and clothing. This is something I have been trying to understand for a while, because I can't believe good intelligent people would find other people's success or good fortune reprehensible. I also don't understand why economic inequality is somehow different from other inequalities, some of which can severely affect people's life happiness more than money.

I'm still trying to get answers. But what really threw me was when I got lectured for being immoral even for asking the question, as if it was self-evidently obvious that no one should ever have more than anyone else, irrespective of effort, inspiration, insight or talent - and I got bludgeoned with long irrelevant quotes about why economic disparities are immoral and rich people are evil. To me that was off-topic and I said so.

I welcome the input and discussion on the question I posed, precisely because I am interested in seeing if there is something I'm missing in my thinking on this issue. Because I wrote the OP, I felt some responsibility to keep the discussion on topic and to prevent it from veering off into other less useful directions. Maybe each OP author can take charge of his or her thread? Some will care about policing the thread and others won't, but we're all adults and should be left to conduct ourselves as adults.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by silent_jay

Much like your trolling is manic obsessive?

You don't like what I say but that doesn't make it a troll, but please carry on saying nothing important.

[silent_jay]

Originally Posted by pan6467

I had to reread who this was about.... I thought you were talking about Host or well, actually it could apply to numerous people in that forum.

Yes it could apply to numerous people in that forum, in that post I was referring to a specific poster.

Originally Posted by Ustwo

You don't like what I say but that doesn't make it a troll, but please carry on saying nothing important.

Oh it's a troll alright, it adds nothing to the thread and only tries to bring it off track, say it isn't a troll all you want, myself and many others know otherwise. But please, carry on thinking what you say is important.

[Aladdin Sane]

Originally Posted by loquitur

But what really threw me was when I got lectured for being immoral even for asking the question, as if it was self-evidently obvious that no one should ever have more than anyone else, irrespective of effort, inspiration, insight or talent

Again, you have hit the nail on the head. There is a new morality, Political Correctness, that does not simply say "you are wrong," but insists that "you are immoral" if you disagree. Irony of ironies, it most often infects the very people who fancy themselves "open-minded."

[roachboy]

loquitor:

i am not sure that i always see the distinction between maintaining threads "on topic" and ducking questions about the logic behind the topic itself.
there is a difference between drift in a topic and questions that are raised about the coherence of a topic.
it seems to me that if you put up a thread--particularly one like the inequality thread, which is more a philosophical question than the usual issue-whaddya think of them apples kinda thread, then you have to be open to questions about the position that the op starts from.

if you aren't, it appears that you aren't really interested in having the discussion that you say you want.

but hey, who knows: maybe my writing isn't clear in this format sometimes.
messageboards are constrained spaces--little boxes, little thoughts--not everything fits easily.
in fact, most stuff that is actually interesting to me doesn't fit easily.

[Hain]

Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane

The problem, Augi, whether you accept it or not, is that your post lacked tact. You responded to a question in a post that was for conservatives. Yes, I was on the side that was offended by your response.

However, Augi, I have had conversations like this before, only was not pissed off, because the question was answered by those invited, without superfluous opinions.

And since I, Aladdin Sane, am the arbiter of sensibility, morality, and good taste, I declare you to be empty-handed. My judgment is final.

Aside from, "Deep down, I believe in the shit sandwiches I am handed from him," where did I go wrong?


If I can be escorted out of presentations and rallies I object to then I can be warned and banned from TFP. But damnit, Aladdin Sane, why not just support the candidate you like? If not the candidate, the party?

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by silent_jay

Oh it's a troll alright, it adds nothing to the thread and only tries to bring it off track, say it isn't a troll all you want, myself and many others know otherwise. But please, carry on thinking what you say is important.

A tangent isn't a troll and it does add to this thread.

hosts manic obsession with Bush and all things republican has made the politics board a steaming pile of shit in many ways.

He can't even leave this thread alone in his personal agenda. He doesn't care hes just hoping to sway another person.

So really, I'm sorry you don't agree with my opinions but I think yours suck too, only I don't call them trolling. Have a nice day.

[Hain]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

...hes just hoping to sway another person.

Well like Tecoyah and I have said: gotta summarize it for us slow-readin' folks.

[silent_jay]

Your manic obsession with calling Democrats all socialists, or anytime someone mentions Canada going on your usual Universal Healthcare rant or calling Canadians socialists or just useless comments has made the politics board a steaming pile of shit in many ways. You can try to blame it on everyone else and take no responsibility for it, but trust me you've contributed to the pile of shit it has become as well.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by Augi

The simple fact that there is so much mudslinging in T. Politics, I can't read through it fast enough to keep track of what is fact, lies, opinion, or otherwise.

His OP read exactly to me and others, "What will be the best way to fool democracy come November?"


Are we not allowed to show our outrage? I thought that was one of our rights and duties in a republic/democracy.


Ego... yeah I agree with that. Still, he doesn't have to respond to the answers he doesn't like.

I responded to his OP, in a manner more sarcastic that I needed to, which I will apologize for after completing this post. But, my opinions of that thread still exist.


So far, the only parts of this forum that are off limits to other members would be ... the Ladies Lounge.


Yes. I find something that makes me or I think is wrong, I stand up. If I am wrong, I apologize.

This was a very well written post and I thank you for your insights.

Alladin did qualify his OP in the title by stating " A Question for Conservatives". That should be a cue that there maybe something that Dems should just shake heads over, and walk away from.

To express outrage is important in any freedom driven society, to instigate, ridicule, and degrade is another. I can post "I read this OP and I feel you are taking advantage of the process and perhaps that is why we get people in office that aren't qualified or even horrendous. Why would you do such a thing." And from there a new discussion maybe made.

It takes a big man to apologize and admit mistakes and ego..... I thoroughly respect your post here, the way you expressed your ideas and thoughts ad have a deep regard for you Augi.

Thank you, Augi, for a truly mature and inspiring post!!!!!!!!!!!!

[loquitur]

Roachboy, your response was on-topic, and I tried to engage you on it. I was very socratic early in the thread, and that was apparently misread, so I moved over to a blunter mode later. But I was not interested in political sparring in the thread. What I wanted was an explanation of the premise behind the idea that there is something wrong with some degree of economic inequality. I'm still waiting. I'm a big believer in opportunity and achievement, and I think everyone should have both. I just don't see how you can have them without also accepting some degree of economic inequality. I also don't see why economic inequality is different from any other kind: each person has different endowments, and no one is equal to everyone else in their endowments and abilities. So why should inequality in the ability to make money be treated differently from inequality in other areas?

You're right, this is a more philosophical discussion than the usual partisan crap that is in the politics board. And I specifically wanted to stay away from the partisan crap.

[pan6467]

There are those here that say change the board.... but when you see new posters getting attacked, ridiculed and chased off.... how are yu going to do that?

"Have to have thick skin and be able to take the attacks.... it's Politics dammit." S because it's politics we have to have approved points of view and not e allowed to try to have sensible dialogs and debates?

There is a reason party moderates like McCain and Obama are winning and it is because America is tired of the partisanship, the self righteous attitudes and the "not getting anything done because of the other party" excuses.

There is a reason that people like Host and UsTwo are being called trolls... because their constant attacks, smokescreen tactics and know it all attitudes are no longer appealing to the people.

I think 20 some years (more so the last 16) of the partisan bullshit is long enough. It's time for dialog, time to right that which has been wronged and to rebuild a nation. It's time we came together, worked together and rebuilt this nation to a better glory and respectability.

We wonder why we are hated around the world.... maybe it's because we are a nation full of hate mongers and partisan idiots that keep tearing us down and destroying all that is good, while they blame the other guy.

Our leaders set the tone of our people. The greats knew this and while not perfect and while they may have had differences in the how to's.... things got done. Reagan got things done and did rebuild the nation from a 70's problem... the problem was we didn't have leadership to take the reigns and keep moving us forward. I'm not a big Reaganite but something worked during those years. FDR wasn't exactly the most liked during his day but he accomplished a lot of great things because he was a leader... JFK, Truman, Teddy Roosevelt and so on.

Great leaders inspire and bring a country together not tear it apart, we have been getting leaders tearing us apart and it shows in our daily lives. Gingrich, Bush, Pelosi, and so on (those are just the names coming to mind right now, I'm sure I can have as many Dems and Rep. up there).... they led by tearing things down and leaving destruction in their paths.

We have a chance now to embrace a positive, optimistic change. We will see a moderate that opens his mind to opposing viewpoints in office next year. The nation will follow, the world will follow. Our elected officials in Washington set our nations tone... it's time we embrace working together to rebuild and stop the destruction.

[silent_jay]

Originally Posted by pan6467

There is a reason that people like Host and UsTwo are being called trolls... because their constant attacks, smokescreen tactics and know it all attitudes are no longer appealing to the people.

You hit the nail on the head.
They come off as if they believe what they're typing is gospel and anyone questioning their wisdom is an idiot, and deserves to be reprimanded.

[Hain]

@ Pan6467:

Can you say that with a big American flag waving in the background and some empowering music? Honestly. Some of the things you have been saying should go into a sticky in the politics board so new members don't have to deal with the heat of the kitchen that is T Politics. The kitchen isn't just hot, it is a blazing fire sparked by grease, oil, bad curtains, and flammable cleaners.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by Augi

@ Pan6467:

Can you say that with a big American flag waving in the background and some empowering music? Honestly. Some of the things you have been saying should go into a sticky in the politics board so new members don't have to deal with the heat of the kitchen that is T Politics. The kitchen isn't just hot, it is a blazing fire sparked by grease, oil, bad curtains, and flammable cleaners.

Change is hard to embrace when hate, anger and self righteousness are easier for you because they are your comfort zone, identity and all you know or care to know. Others are so miserable in life that their only goal is to make others miserable and hate filled.

It's just time. Change is coming, most are happily seeing it, accepting it and welcoming it as it comes.

[loquitur]

Change to what?

[filtherton]

A question for nonconservatives:

Conservatives: racist pig douchers, or greedy puppy rapers?

Please, if you're conservative, don't reply- i don't want shit to get off topic.


*note

Think about the implications of the words, not the words themselves.

[The_Jazz]

Originally Posted by filtherton

A question for nonconservatives:

Conservatives: racist pig douchers, or greedy puppy rapers?

Please, if you're conservative, don't reply- i don't want shit to get off topic.


*note

Think about the implications of the words, not the words themselves.

Answer - neither. There are some that are, but that's a very small minority.

Question for conservatives - are liberals hippie fruitcakes or communist thugs?

See my point?

[Hain]

OOO OOO OOO! Communist Thugs! Communist Thugs!

[The_Jazz]

Originally Posted by Augi

OOO OOO OOO! Communist Thugs! Communist Thugs!

Settle down, Horseshack.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by silent_jay

You hit the nail on the head.
They come off as if they believe what they're typing is gospel and anyone questioning their wisdom is an idiot, and deserves to be reprimanded.

Pretty much any conservative post is considered trolling, I can't tell you how many times I've been called a troll there for having an opinion that didn't fit TFP leftist group think.

I've had a handful of mods come to my defense a number of times due to these allegations. One even warned me when he left to watch my back, he wouldn't be around anymore and honestly that made me sadder for TFP politics than knowing that half the people there think Kusinich would be a good president.

host isn't a troll, he has a mania. He doesn't post to get people to react negatively or fight, he posts because he believes it. The same with me. I don't think you even know what a troll is tbh.

A troll is someone who WANTS you to fight with them, says things just to get people to respond.

As a vocal conservative I get to be a lightning rod, my very existence is a troll for some people, but I could not care less.

[sprocket]

The Politics board is a pretty one sided echo chamber from what I can see, but it does have value. Even if it doesnt do much to change anyones mind or affect the real world, it always helps to discuss the issues. Its a good way to view new sides of an argument that you may not have thought of, or look closely at arguments your opposition puts forth.

And occasionally my mind gets changed, after reading a really thoughtful well reasoned post, on a topic that I hadnt fully considered.

[dc_dux]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Pretty much any conservative post is considered trolling, I can't tell you how many times I've been called a troll there for having an opinion that didn't fit TFP leftist group think.

I have never called you a troll. I have corrected you when you post false information (eg. the lowest unemployment in history was under Bush) or rely on sources that, IMO, are misleading (eg. junkscience.com in every global warming discussion). Then you often refuse to respond or engage in debate (" I (you) am too busy to respond to every post directed my way")

A troll is someone who WANTS you to fight with them, says things just to get people to respond.

Didnt you post recently that you often post in politics to "poke a stick in their cages". How is that not trolling or instigating a fight?

[silent_jay]

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Didnt you post recently that you often post in politics to "poke a stick in their cages". How is that not trolling or instigating a fight?

Yes, dc, yes he did recently post something along those lines, you see Ustwo, you don't even know when you admit to doing something, here's the quote in question, directed at Crompsin, look how touchy Ustwo gets when he gets a taste of his own medicine,

Originally Posted by Ustwo

But I was looking for someone with some knowledge of the subject, not someone looking to argue with one liners. If I wanted that I'd have posted in politics, as I don't personally know.

Let me guess Ustwo, you meant something else, not that you troll politics with your one liners. So yes my troll label does fit you, as you've admitted that's what you do in politics. Have a nice day.....

[sprocket]

Close this thread! The echo's are spreading to other parts of the forum!

[dc_dux]

Wait...wait...wait!!!!

If the thread is closed, it would deny Ustwo the opportunity to respond to the allegations of double standards or to clarify the "poking the stick through their cages" remark.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by silent_jay

Let me guess Ustwo, you meant something else, not that you troll politics with your one liners. So yes my troll label does fit you, as you've admitted that's what you do in politics. Have a nice day.....

Some of you people really need a sarcasm detector, if you would read my posts in this thread, you know I do joke about the politics board and posting there.

Really, I'm trying nicely not to tell you to fuck off, as I think you are trolling me to get me to say just that, so I'll just assume you are not good at reading on the interweb.

[Aladdin Sane]

Ustwo is by-and-large the only one consistently giving a pro-conservative, pro-capitalist (libertarian?) point of view in the politics forum. The rest of us haven't changed our minds and become liberals; instead, we've grown tired of the personal attacks and hubris.

Ustwo is no more of a troll than those of you pointing your nubby little fingers at him.

[silent_jay]

Of course it was meant as sarcasm, just the excuse I said you would use, not trolling you at all, just showing you that you are responsible for the steaming pile of shit politics has become just as much as anyone else here.

What's the matter don't like to be called out on your own posts, using your own words admitting to something? That's alright Ustwo, I'm starting to see just how you are, you can dish it out, but when it comes time to take it, you fold.

You 'joke' about the politics board when it is convenient to you, like when you get caught in something, it's easy to say, oh I was just being sarcastic.

Tell me to fuck off if you like, just proves even more you can dish it out, yet taking it is another matter.

[tecoyah]

You Guys want something more challenging in the realm of a politics board...try surviving here:

www.debatepolitics.com

I understand full well this link to another board is somewhat inappropriate to post here, but I think by reviewing this place, you may gain a newfound appreciation for TFPolitics.

[Elphaba]

Thank you, Tecoyah. The folks here should spend some time at dp.com to get a perspective of how politics forums easily devolve without consistent moderation.

For giggles, check out my posts there under the screen name of "Pen" and see what is acceptable even from the moderators.

[Hain]

Originally Posted by tecoyah

www.debatepolitics.com

//shudders// I got a bad feeling about this. As in, Luke Skywalker bad feeling. Like the time I went to FreeJesus.net.

[snowy]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

As a vocal conservative I get to be a lightning rod, my very existence is a troll for some people, but I could not care less.

And I am thankful for your willingness to take the heat, so to speak. While I am not a conservative (obviously), I appreciate your ability to provide the other side of the issue in a clear, thoughtful way (most of the time).

You're definitely not a troll, Ustwo.

[Charlatan]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

As a vocal conservative I get to be a lightning rod, my very existence is a troll for some people, but I could not care less.

While the occasional post is certainly flirts with being a troll, the truth is, UsTwo is a much-needed voice of opposition. I don't generally agree with much that he says, but I would argue his absence would be huge.

The interesting thing about Ustwo is that he ventures beyond the politics board to the board at large... and it is here that he show us all what it means to take part in the TFP.

[silent_jay]

That is true, Ustwo is one of the few who frequent the politics board but also goes into other parts of the board, so yeah I'll admit that he does show what it means to take part in the TFP.

[Elphaba]

I would love to engage in a sincere conservative discussion on any topic. When has ustwo done that? There are far better conservative voices in this forum who are willing to back up their positions. They also post in other areas of tfp.

The defense of ustwo has become an offense to others, perhaps?