How important is the TFP Politics board?

[silent_jay]

Also very true, the words Ustwo and sincere debate don't exacxtly happen often, more like sincere sarcasm if anything. I think it's obvious though, Ustwo is going to continue to be able to leave comments that do very little to further a discussion but do tons to derail that discussion. I reckon my best bet is to just stay out of politics and not have to deal with them.

I also like how this lightning rod came about, it isn't being a vocal conservative that has caused Ustwo to become a lightning rod, he's accomplished that all with his posting 'style'.

[Elphaba]

Great. Another participant in Politics would rather leave than deal with what goes on here regarding tfp popularity.

[tecoyah]

Personally, i don't see him as conservative at all....at least not in the traditional sense. In fact, many of US that actually act conservative....are rather put off when such Neo Cons claim to be so.

[Charlatan]

I think it is pretty clear that Ustwo is no neocon... at least not completely.

As for this being a offence against someone else... If I want to "take a shot" at host, I can PM him anytime. I think I have made myself reasonably clear with regards to the difficulties I have with his particular style.

My purpose in that post was to point out that Ustwo is not the antiChrist. That he is a contributing member, in reasonably good standing , who frequently expresses a point of view that is at odds when many who also post passionately in the Politics Forum.

He serves just as easily as a punching bag for many here but appears to take his punches in a different manner than others (and I don't mean host here). It should be noted that many of the other conservative members of this board have either left entirely or post with great infrequency because of a perceived bias here.

To my mind, there has always been a bit of difficulty on both sides with leaving the snarkiness at the door and simply posting a position. Some people use a one liner to insert their snark, others flood us with quotes and brow beat us with their version of the "truth" (yes, I am describing host).

I see both versions as untenable in the long run. I find the former doesn't lead to discussion because it doesn't engage in debate and the latter fail because it doesn't leave any room for debate.

The thing is, I have seen Ustwo post something other than a one liner. I have seen him debate the larger points. I have even seen him cede a point (not often mind you, but he's not as intractable as some).

[silent_jay]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Great. Another participant in Politics would rather leave than deal with what goes on here regarding tfp popularity.

Not that I'd rather leave, I do enjoy discussing politics here, and will most likely continue doing so, it's just that it makes no sense to when the usual suspects are going to show up posting the usual things and threads are going to go down the shitter in the usual way. I applaud the people here who start threads in politics that are well constructed and get their point across, but they're usually derailed by one of the usual suspects, and end far off the topic of the OP.

It's like any thread that involves a shooting, we all know it's going to turn into a debate about gun control, it usually stays on topic for a few posts then starts it's merry way to gun control, people will say it's a right, people will say there should be more training, but in the end it has nothing to do with the original topic, which is a tragic shooting.

[roachboy]

there are a few contextual factors that are simply the case:

1. the general style that ustwo adopts is not something that he invented--it is a pretty accurate reflection of the mode of "argumentation" you run into amongst right radio pundits...somehow this gets wrapped up with a conception of purposefulness. i dont' really get that, but hey....

2. despite this, there are any number of ways to argue from a conservative position and the fact remains that ustwo--and a few others who play less often--are MAKING A CHOICE when they adopt this sub-pj o'rourke mode of discourse.

personally, i am pretty sure that the posting style is far from a representation of who the guy behind ustwo is, and from time to time you can see that this is the case (from time to time in politics--more often in other forums when he posts there)--i take this as making it *more* evident that the politics style is a choice.

i should day that roachboy comes across as arrogant at times--sometimes i know that the voice can be taken that way and other times i am surprised by it---sometimes i am deliberately operating in a "fuck you" mode, but mostly i am not---but no matter--i only say this mostly in order to defuse the idea that i am speaking from a position of righteousness on this front. i other words, it is not the arrogance that bothers me.

i guess the bottom line is what are folk looking for from a political debate.

personally, i would prefer more an informed chess game kind of thing--i enjoy opposing viewpoints--i find it interesting to try to work out how they operate, what their logic is--because is it only through doing that that i can take seriously what is being said---call it a quirk---but that's the case.

what i don't find interesting is the idea that anyone can just say anything and it's all "just my opinion man"--i figure that political viewpoints are the result of some thinking and that it is the thinking behind the viewpoints that matters.
even if the position are developed on the fly and so are, in fact, opinion, it is still interesting to see how other folk put together their view of the world. that is why i play in politics at all.

and that is the register in which ustwo rarely chooses to play.

like i said above--but i'll be more explicit here--it is BECAUSE i *know* that he is an intelligent and reasonably informed person that the choice he makes as to style is problematic--and this is compounded by willingness to attack personally those who oppose him--and host in particular, because for some reason host becomes the whipping boy for all the other folk in the micro-world that oppose him politically--perhaps because they are like mirror images (inverted images, to be clear) of each other---which in itself i wouldn't care about IF there was also a willingness on ustwo's part to answer for his own positions.

but it's not like that.
and i am tired of pretending that this is not the case.
it is, and we all know it.

so this is not really about ustwo as a member of the community. he is an important member, and frankly in some situations i enjoy the fact that we are in the same community--in others i'm more "wtf"--and i am sure that the same holds for him about roachboy and probably about whomever he imagines me to be, the guy behind roachboy who pulls his strings-- so this is about ustwo in politics.

there are structural problems with the board and one of them is the unmoving anatgonism between some of the posters----and that antagonism bleeds into a monotony in the posts that happen there--and that IS a problem--because the forum is the sum of its parts--and if there is a stagnant antagonism that produces stereotypical responses regardless of the topic--and if this has gone on FOR YEARS now--we are kidding ourselves if we do not acknowledge that PART of the way forward is to put an end to this dynamic.

so comrades: stop. enough.

[Charlatan]

Originally Posted by roachboy

there are structural problems with the board and one of them is the unmoving anatgonism between some of the posters----and that antagonism bleeds into a monotony in the posts that happen there--and that IS a problem--because the forum is the sum of its parts--and if there is a stagnant antagonism that produces stereotypical responses regardless of the topic--and if this has gone on FOR YEARS now--we are kidding ourselves if we do not acknowledge that PART of the way forward is to put an end to this dynamic.

I think you have put your finger on something here... something we can all see (including most of the participants).

This is the crux of what we are hearing from the members here who refuse to participate in Politics.

It is some thing various members (and staff) have tried to combat. But, oddly, it seems that some like it this way.

[roachboy]

sorry i had to take such a roundabout way to that---i'm also trying to control for the effects of a short hiatus--and beyond that i want to be fair in what i am saying.

plus i blab alot.

[Charlatan]

have you seen my posts? at least yours make sense from time to time...

[tecoyah]

My intent was not to debase Ustwo...I find his input fascinating, and useful. I was merely stating opinion. I clearly remember defending his membership while a moderator on this board, and would do so again. I also think the defensive nature of some members, when confronted by a nemesis has degraded the board considerably, in fact to the point of tedious monotony.
This is the primary reason I went elsewhere for my politics fix.

[Ace_O_Spades]

I enjoy tilted politics. the board is kept to a higher standard than the other boards and there is real potential there. The only drawback I see is that it's incredibly easy for someone (not mentioning any names but you know who you are) to swoop into a thread and derail it then laugh at the resulting chaos. I would like to see more nazi-modding of trolls.

[Tully Mars]

Originally Posted by Ace_O_Spades

I enjoy tilted politics. the board is kept to a higher standard than the other boards and there is real potential there. The only drawback I see is that it's incredibly easy for someone (not mentioning any names but you know who you are) to swoop into a thread and derail it then laugh at the resulting chaos. I would like to see more nazi-modding of trolls.

I came for the political debate and stayed for the porn.

I don't know about Nazi modding, Nazi's are never a good solution, IMO. But there does seem to be a few folks who will take whatever thread they can find and turn it into their personal pet issue. For example any thread dealing with any sort of violence will, within 5 or 10 posts, become a gun control debate. That's gotten old quickly.

Maybe if they just added a gun control thread and let those who wanted to slog that out could. Those who wanted to stay on the topic at hand could do that?

All that said, it's pretty easy to get off topic, I do it all the time. I don't intentionally derail threads just find a comment that I either don't understand or disagree with, so I comment. Before I even realize it it's 10 posts of XYZ discussion when the thread is titled ABC.

[Ace_O_Spades]

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

Nazi's are never a good solution, IMO.

Nazis have their uses... Particularly if you want to impose one set of overarching principles on everyone. Nazis are good at that, and sometimes you need Nazi-Mods to enforce rules to the letter otherwise the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory blooms to full effect

[Hain]

Originally Posted by Ace_O_Spades

you need Nazi-Mods to enforce rules to the letter otherwise the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory blooms to full effect

For those of us that don't know, and only could guess:

[Ace_O_Spades]

Originally Posted by Augi

For those of us that don't know, and only could guess:

Ah yes, thanks for that... I have that pic I usually post along with the reference, but I'm at work right now and without said pic.

[Hain]

No problem.

[Tully Mars]

Originally Posted by Augi

For those of us that don't know, and only could guess:

Outstanding, laughed my ass off.