Why you don't know shit about parenting. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

filtherton · 09-22-2007, 10:33 PM

There are at least a few folks here, and it seems like 50% of the people in other places i go where the subject comes up, who think that they somehow have incisive opinions on the subject of being a good parent. The fact that they believe this, in my opinion, is a reflection of the fact that they either, aren't a parent, or, are the kind of parent who tells you how fucked up your kid is going to be because you didn't breast feed them until they were 3.

Right now, i've got $65 billion that says that there is no such thing as a good parent. Not one of you smug, self righteous high horsers can define what it takes to properly raise a child.

What would a definition entail?

Well, you'd have to define what it even means to be a good parent. Good luck with this one. If you've spent any amount of time around more than one child you're already pretty well aware that there are a lot of different kinds of kids, all with different needs, different desires, different likes, dislikes, buttons, experiences, temperaments. It becomes clear that in defining what it means to be a good parent, one can't really focus on specific behaviors, aside from perhaps what a good parent does not do. A good parent doesn't punch their kid (though this one will be debatable depending on your values). A good parent doesn't do thing A or thing B.

That won't work either, because anyone who's a realist, and i think most people are at least somewhat inclined towards realism, knows that there are exceptions to every rule. So now all the items on the list i just hinted at become conditional statements, like "A good parent doesn't punch their kid unless A happens."

Nevermind that when there this list is endless and highly subjective once you get past the obvious choices. It is highly improbable that any two people will come up with the same list. There is no consensus, there never will be, because there can't be.

But ignore that, let's pretend that you've got this list, this highly specific outline of what it is not okay for parents to do. Great. Now make a list of all the things it is okay for a parent not to do. Now get rid of both of them, because kids don't care about lists like that, and in fact, no matter how large or comprehensive your lists are, you probably haven't taken into account the fact that kids are actually individuals, with unique problems with unique solutions. What is "good" parenting for that fucker over there is horribly irresponsible or abusive to that fucker's little brother.

What you will be left with, when you chop away all the stuff on your list, and deal with every little kid who won't stop talking on the plane, is nothing. Or maybe, like, three things if you're really stubborn. The general definition of a good parent you're left with is so vague as to be functionally nonexistent.

There is no such thing as a good parent. There are only differing degrees that exist in reference to the amount of emotional, social, and financial scarring that ensue between the child's birth and whenever they stop talking to you. Even then, if your child comes out relatively unscathed, the fact that they came out relatively unscathed says absolutely nothing definitively about your skills as a parent. Nothing at all. All it says is that you didn't fuck things up, or if you did, other circumstances existed that canceled your fucking up of things out.

Trent dilfer has a superbowl ring. It's just like that.

So, the next time you feel like you have something compelling to say concerning the abilities of other people to raise their children, remember that they're probably doing the best they can, and that even if they weren't, you most likely don't actually know enough about their particular situation to talk about the color of their drapes, much less the quality of their child raising abilities, and even if you did, you don't have a fucking clue what it means to be a good parent in any kind of meaningful sense of the word.

Elphaba · 09-22-2007, 11:19 PM

I have always been certain that I didn't have that necessary *something* that makes a good parent. I am the last person to criticize someone trying to do their best in raising their child. I can be very judgemental about an out of control child, but I would never confront a parent about their "lack of skills." Is there a single term that encompasses arrogance, hypocracy, and self-rightiousness with a huge dose of ignorance? I suppose proper nouns shouldn't count.

Infinite_Loser · 09-22-2007, 11:23 PM

I'm just gonna' go out on a limb here and guess someone called you a bad parent?

Bill O'Rights · 09-22-2007, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I'm just gonna' go out on a limb here and guess someone called you a bad parent?

While I can see where you may arrive at that conclusion, I'd say...not necesarily.

It's very easy, and a bit of a cop out, when society sees someone acting outside the bounds of acceptable behavior, to ask; "Where were the parents?". And, while parenting is a 24/7 job, it's not reasonable, or realistic, to expect a parent to "know", or to be able to control, every little nuance of his/her child's life.

And, although there are noteworthy exceptions, most parents are trying to do the best job that they can, with the tools that they are given.

It also is extremely frustrating to hear these criticisms from non-parents, that really have no experience, or a clue.

(edit) Except for these assholes that allow thier children to run wild in Applebees, and excuse the behavior as; "They're just being children.". There is a special circle in Dante's Hell for these people.

Hyacinthe · 09-22-2007, 11:47 PM

Only time I have ever been pissed off with someone about their parenting skills was when i was parked in a driveway - woman walks past holding her childs hand - kid threw the lollypop he'd been sucking on at my car - shattered all over the windscreen - she pointed and laughed. Not that she's a bad parent she's just a bitch.

Cleaning slobbery lollypop off my windscreen and out of the wipers on a hot day before it melts and solidifies is not a pleasant way to spend the afternoon.

Sion · 09-23-2007, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

There is no such thing as a good parent. There are only differing degrees that exist in reference to the amount of emotional, social, and financial scarring that ensue between the child's birth and whenever they stop talking to you. Even then, if your child comes out relatively unscathed, the fact that they came out relatively unscathed says absolutely nothing definitively about your skills as a parent. Nothing at all. All it says is that you didn't fuck things up, or if you did, other circumstances existed that canceled your fucking up of things out.

Trent dilfer has a superbowl ring. It's just like that.

So, the next time you feel like you have something compelling to say concerning the abilities of other people to raise their children, remember that they're probably doing the best they can, and that even if they weren't, you most likely don't actually know enough about their particular situation to talk about the color of their drapes, much less the quality of their child raising abilities, and even if you did, you don't have a fucking clue what it means to be a good parent in any kind of meaningful sense of the word.

that's a HUGE cop out, IMHO.

a good parent loves, supports (both emotionally and financially), respects and nurtures a child. a good parent sets limits and defines expectations with respect to behavior. a good parent disciplines when necessary, praises when appropriate, and teaches the values/morals/ethics in which he or she believes. a good parent takes an active role in teaching the child how to become a useful, productive member of society, as opposed to leaving that up to the schools and/or churches.

but most of all, a good parent loves his/her children come Hell or high water.

analog · 09-23-2007, 03:56 AM

filtherton:

I disagree that there's no such thing as a "good parent". I know lots of great parents, including my own.

I agree, though, that it would be pretty near impossible to laundry list what makes a good parent. There are, however, going to be some items on the list that seem obvious and universal to all good parents, no matter who is reading the list: love, affection, protection...

There will also be things that immediately conjure an image of a bad parent, such as someone who abuses or neglects their kid. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that some people conjecture about what might fit on either "list".

The bottom line is, people with kids often have a sense of entitlement that their opinion is king and the only one that matters, and that's plain nonsense. For every good parent, I could undoubtedly show you 1 or 2 bad ones- that's not exactly a great foundation on which to base your monopoly of opinion for the subject.

If half to one-third of all people in a given group are a bad example to that group, saying that you know what you're talking about just because you're a member of that group is asinine. Many people who beat their kids say they're good parents, because they've justified the violence as a form of punishment. Those people could have 15 kids, and they still won't be good parents. Experience isn't everything.

And just as having kids doesn't automatically make a person's opinion valid, not having kids doesn't automatically make a person's opinion invalid.

I mean really... your entire argument revolves on someone not having ejaculated into a woman and caused issue. If I went out right now and impregnated a chick, you'd have nothing to say in 9 months, because I'd be another one of your breeder pals... and God help you then, if you tried to tell a fellow parent how to be a good parent! The earth would implode!

I can't wait to condescend to people and tell them their opinions are worthless and only mine matter, because I participated in making a baby. Then I can live under the delusion that childbirth is a miracle- whee!

But seriously.
I may yet end up as a parent one day. I know, it's a very popular (but very incorrect) perception that I hate kids. I don't. I hate ill-mannered children. It just so happens that they make up the vast majority of children that I encounter in life, and therefore I tend to generalize all children in the same light. Some children, on the other hand, are quite pleasant.

In my professional capacity, I enjoy helping children- they're tenfolds more appreciative of help and care than your average adult. Even when they're scared and confused, they genuinely seem to be thankful for taking care of them. I love that. I love helping people, and I don't do what I do so I can get recognition or thanks... but getting a thank you or an appreciative smile out of someone is the best perk there is.

I almost just left this thread alone, but I know that some of you see me as famous- or maybe infamous- for this subject, and I didn't want to disappoint.

RenaissanceII · 09-23-2007, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

(edit) Except for these assholes that allow thier children to run wild in Applebees, and excuse the behavior as; "They're just being children.". There is a special circle in Dante's Hell for these people.

Might I add those who let their lil darlings run wild @ my place of employ?

ngdawg · 09-23-2007, 04:28 AM

While I agree there can't be a blanket, one-size-fits-all definition, I disagree that one wouldn't be able to differentiate a good parent from a bad one. Letting your kids run wild in Applebee's might not be bad parenting, but it's lousy control and misguided thinking. Same with being overbearing.
A 'bad' parent doesn't meet the needs of the family at all and is neglectful, possibly violent towards the kids.
I had my kids later in life and long after everyone in our circle of family and friends had theirs. I observed how they were with their own kids, knowing I wouldn't do much of what they were doing. Some of the things I allowed, my mother and friends thought I was wrong to do-I let my kids jump on the furniture, I let them watch The Simpsons , I didn't put 5 layers of clothes on them if it got chilly out and, Heavens!! I put them in the backyard naked on warm summer days. I have been 'accused' of being a 'bad parent' because I used wrist 'leashes', yet I wasn't one of those moms in the mall calling her kids' names because they'd wandered off or yelling at them to "get over here now!"
Do I consider myself a 'good parent'? Most times. My now-teenagers are trustworthy , A-B students and quite self-sufficient and very polite.
I did and do what I think is right and along the way I made mistakes, which I apologize for to my kids. I owe no explanations to anyone else.
Bottom line is, a good parent can make mistakes. How would we know a good one from a bad one? Ask their kids.

ShaniFaye · 09-23-2007, 04:35 AM

I can think of many things a "good parent wouldnt do" that wouldnt have one damn thing to do with me "knowing their situation" or there being "exceptions to a rule"

A good parent doesn't molest their children (or their childrens friends)

A good parent doesnt leave their children in a crack hotel while they are off in some other room looking to score their next hit

A good parent doesnt prostitute herself in a one room crack hotel, with her children in the room trying to get money to score their next hit

A good parent doesnt drown her children in her car because the man she is currently trying to latch onto doesnt want children

pig · 09-23-2007, 05:48 AM

well shani: i think, in all fairness, those types of things might be part of the list that filtherton would say is sort of obvious...

i think this is compounded by the fact, at least in context of the discussions we tend to have around here, by the effect of news-type articles having the tendency to highlight the extremes. cnn picks up on a kid who chopped the heads off of 42 passengers on a united air flight, then we read cnn, and we come here and argue about it.

i think i learned something of what you're talking about, filterton, when my buddy had a beautiful little baby girl and the next thing i know, the fucking wiggles and tickle me elmo are on....all the fucking time. hard for me to understand, as i have no kids...i'd prefer they be reading books on philosophy or the like. which is completely ridiculous. theory => practice. i think it's a lot easier to judge others' parenting in a vacuum...when you're not keeping up with your own little varmits.

ShaniFaye · 09-23-2007, 05:59 AM

well its kinda hard to discern when he says

Quote:

It becomes clear that in defining what it means to be a good parent, one can't really focus on specific behaviors, aside from perhaps what a good parent does not do. A good parent doesn't punch their kid (though this one will be debatable depending on your values). A good parent doesn't do thing A or thing B.

That won't work either, because anyone who's a realist, and i think most people are at least somewhat inclined towards realism, knows that there are exceptions to every rule. So now all the items on the list i just hinted at become conditional statements, like "A good parent doesn't punch their kid unless A happens."

JumpinJesus · 09-23-2007, 06:51 AM

Sometimes I'm a diplomatic person, sometimes I say things I later wish I didn't.

When my daughter was 2, I used to carry her by her hands as she dangled in front of me. I would swing her from side to side. She would giggle and giggle and beg me to do it more.

One day, I was walking down the street doing this with her, when a woman pushing a stroller approached me. I'll never forget this shit. She said, and I quote because I remember to this day exactly what she said, "You know, some people might consider it abusive to do what you're doing. You could dislocate her little, tiny shoulders."

She said it with the same smug high-horse attitude filtherton alludes to in his opening post.

I was a younger parent. I was 21 at the time. I remember exactly what I said to her. I said, "Why don't you mind your own fucking business and worry about not fucking up your own kids?"

I kept walking with a big smile on my face. I hate busybodies, and I hate busybodies who think they're a better parent than you because they strap their future Columbine-kid into a 35-seat SUV and toss on a Disney DVD to shut them up while they drive across the street to WalMart and yet still feel the need to tell you that their little Baby Einstein needs to express himself by screaming himself to sleep at Starbucks.

I don't hate kids. I hate the fucking overprotective, holier-than-thou suburbanite parents who think their little retarded shithead is somehow the next Bill Gates and want everyone to giver their little shithead all the room in Applebees he needs to run around in his stinky pull-ups.

Plan9 · 09-23-2007, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

I kept walking with a big smile on my face. I hate busybodies, and I hate busybodies who think they're a better parent than you because they strap their future Columbine-kid into a 35-seat SUV and toss on a Disney DVD to shut them up while they drive across the street to WalMart and yet still feel the need to tell you that their little Baby Einstein needs to express himself by screaming himself to sleep at Starbucks.

I don't hate kids. I hate the fucking overprotective, holier-than-thou suburbanite parents who think their little retarded shithead is somehow the next Bill Gates and want everyone to giver their little shithead all the room in Applebees he needs to run around in his stinky pull-ups.

AMEN!

hotzot · 09-23-2007, 08:24 AM

I always figure you've been a good parent if your kids take care of you in your doltage. Rather than give you a bottle of whisky, strip you naked and put you in a snow bank.

squeeeb · 09-23-2007, 08:33 AM

i've been a pretty crappy parent, had no idea what the hell i was doing, i didnt even want to be a parent, i hate kids. yet somehow, my kid made it to college, has never been in trouble with the law, never did drugs or smoked pot, didn't get pregnant, wasn't much of a problem at all...

maybe the secret to being a good parent is being a bad parent?

ngdawg · 09-23-2007, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

Sometimes I'm a diplomatic person, sometimes I say things I later wish I didn't.

When my daughter was 2, I used to carry her by her hands as she dangled in front of me. I would swing her from side to side. She would giggle and giggle and beg me to do it more.

One day, I was walking down the street doing this with her, when a woman pushing a stroller approached me. I'll never forget this shit. She said, and I quote because I remember to this day exactly what she said, "You know, some people might consider it abusive to do what you're doing. You could dislocate her little, tiny shoulders."

She said it with the same smug high-horse attitude filtherton alludes to in his opening post.

I was a younger parent. I was 21 at the time. I remember exactly what I said to her. I said, "Why don't you mind your own fucking business and worry about not fucking up your own kids?"

I kept walking with a big smile on my face. I hate busybodies, and I hate busybodies who think they're a better parent than you because they strap their future Columbine-kid into a 35-seat SUV and toss on a Disney DVD to shut them up while they drive across the street to WalMart and yet still feel the need to tell you that their little Baby Einstein needs to express himself by screaming himself to sleep at Starbucks.

I don't hate kids. I hate the fucking overprotective, holier-than-thou suburbanite parents who think their little retarded shithead is somehow the next Bill Gates and want everyone to giver their little shithead all the room in Applebees he needs to run around in his stinky pull-ups.

Scary. I totally agree with every word.

In going back to my wrist-leash usage, which I had to do with toddler twins too big for a stroller(and I really HATE kids running around and mothers with their "Johnny, please come here." whines...), I got the "they aren't dogs" smug remarks every time we were out. My two pat answers each time were, "No, they aren't. I can GET another dog" and "If that boy in England was on one, he'd be alive today." Shut'em right up.

Halx · 09-23-2007, 08:43 AM

I feel the same way about the concept of nutrition.

Lady Sage · 09-23-2007, 09:22 AM

Devils advocate...

A good parent would not sexually abuse their child for any reason.

Cynthetiq · 09-23-2007, 09:36 AM

I don't know shit about parenting and won't claim to since I don't want to care for children nor raise them myself.

I do however know shit about behaving in public spaces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

I don't hate kids. I hate the fucking overprotective, holier-than-thou suburbanite parents who think their little retarded shithead is somehow the next Bill Gates and want everyone to giver their little shithead all the room in Applebees he needs to run around in his stinky pull-ups.

That is not behaving in a public space.

The other night I was in CVS preparing for Skogafoss' trip to AUS. We were picking up some sundries for her. Two lines, the couple in the left line were purchasing their items. The child (I cannot tell how old she was but she was clearly obesely overweight and inappropriately dressed for whatever age) reached down to the candies, picked up some items and put them into the laser scanner. Not once, but several times. This caused the cashier to have to get the card to void the purchases. The mother looked over said,"Stop it. What are you retarded?" The child continued the behavior. The cashier returned and had to come back around to get the items to rescan them for voiding. The mother said something not discernable, picked up her purchase and told the child to follow her out the store. No apology to the partrons or cashier.

That is simply poor public behavior at any age.

Willravel · 09-23-2007, 09:42 AM

Interesting post. The whole thing is subjective, and I would say that intent and preparedness would go more into me calling someone a good parent than results. If someone is doing their absolute best, and they have done everything they can to provide a good environment, then I would be wrong to call them bad parents even if their kid ended up as Hitler.

filtherton · 09-23-2007, 10:32 AM

infinite loser

Nobody called me a bad parent. I just get annoyed with people who think they can, based on the bare minimum of information, judge the parenting abilities of a complete stranger (aside from the examples shani listed.)

Sion

You didn't really say anything there. All you basically said is that a good parent is one who conforms to your arbitrary definitions of a good parent. That's partly my point. I'm not saying i don't agree with your idea of what a parent should do on a personal note. There are a lot of instances where a parent should not support their child financially or emotionally - think if the kids an addict. Supporting them thusly is generally the exact opposite of what one would do if one actually wanted to help the kid out of their problem.

analog

Here's the thing. There exists a form of knowledge that can only be derived through experience. The idea that fertilizing an egg makes one more able to talk about being a parent is stupid and it has absolutely nothing to do with why you aren't in a position to talk about certain aspects of parenthood. Obviously anyone can talk about what its like to be a parent, and what it means to be a parent. That doesn't mean that everyone has anything interesting to say.

It isn't the act of fertilizing an egg that makes one eminently qualified to speak as a parent. It is the experience of parenting. You do not have any experience parenting - you aren't a parent, and to my knowledge you haven't ever been one. The reason why people dismiss you when you talk about what it means to be a good parent is because the very nature of your opinions betray the fact that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. I'm sorry that this is so difficult to understand for you.

It's the same reason i don't get tax advice from any of my friends. It isn't because they aren't as smart as a CPA, or that they aren't willing to offer tax advicet, it is because they don't know what the fuck they are talking about when it comes to taxes.

If you went out and fertilized an egg, it would not be the fact that you fertilized an egg that would make you more qualified to speak about parenting (the fact that you think seem to think this idea worth repeating indicates to me that you don't know anything about being a parent), it would be the fact that after a certain period of time you would be parent and would thusly have experiences associated and experiential knowledge associated with parenthood.

For instance, the thread about underage girls in porn; there are very few parents, and none that i am personally in contact with, that would associate a teenager posting nude pictures of themselves on the internet as being the sole result of bad parenting. This isn't because they are objectively smarter than you, this isn't because they are predisposed as parents to avoid acknowledging the failings of other parents, it is because they know how difficult it is to instill certain things in a child, and how difficult it is to compete with all of the other different ideas and perspectives that a child is exposed to. The fact that you can chalk it up solely to bad parenting- so much so that you imply that anyone who doesn't is intellectually dishonest- is a reflection of the fact that you are talking about something you fundamentally don't understand. It isn't the fact that you don't have a child, per se, that makes your opinion worthless, it's that you aren't any kind of authority on the subject.

Shani

It is easy to say, as far as some things go, what a good parent is not. In some places honor killings are considered good family policy, so it goes to show you never can tell.

The vast majority of things are toss-ups. Those kids running around in applebees? I wouldn't assume their parents are bad. It is quite possible that mom and/or dad are exhausted. Kids are also annoying sometimes.

pig

Yes, it's kind of like that.

Ustwo · 09-23-2007, 11:20 AM

I see good and bad parents every day in my line of work.

Its very hard to say what makes someone a good parent. Sometimes it seems the kids themselves are of such a character that they do not 'need' a good parent to do well and be happy. Other times you can see its a kid with issues and the parent is doing everything they can to help and teach the child that what they are doing is unacceptable.

Bad parents are easy to spot. Sometimes its their own selfishness other times its being to indulgent. Its sad when I see a future asshole in development and I just wish their parents would do something about their little prince/princess before its completely to late. Some are to hard on their kids others who don't seem to care that their daughter has a tramp stamp at 14.

I'd say as a rule fucked up parents create fucked up future parents. I've seen some kids break out of this, and I'm glad either someone else helped them or their core character was such that they could see the problem in their parents as something not to emulate, but they are notable as exceptions.

I'd also add until you have kids of your own, you don't 'get' it. You can't. Its like explaining what sex is like to a virgin. Since having children of my own I tend to have a lot more respect and understanding for other parents, even those who I think are screwing up.

Plan9 · 09-23-2007, 11:38 AM

For my next thread:

Absolute Power: Bad Parenting

09-22-2007, 10:33 PM	#1 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Why you don't know shit about parenting. There are at least a few folks here, and it seems like 50% of the people in other places i go where the subject comes up, who think that they somehow have incisive opinions on the subject of being a good parent. The fact that they believe this, in my opinion, is a reflection of the fact that they either, aren't a parent, or, are the kind of parent who tells you how fucked up your kid is going to be because you didn't breast feed them until they were 3. Right now, i've got $65 billion that says that there is no such thing as a good parent. Not one of you smug, self righteous high horsers can define what it takes to properly raise a child. What would a definition entail? Well, you'd have to define what it even means to be a good parent. Good luck with this one. If you've spent any amount of time around more than one child you're already pretty well aware that there are a lot of different kinds of kids, all with different needs, different desires, different likes, dislikes, buttons, experiences, temperaments. It becomes clear that in defining what it means to be a good parent, one can't really focus on specific behaviors, aside from perhaps what a good parent does not do. A good parent doesn't punch their kid (though this one will be debatable depending on your values). A good parent doesn't do thing A or thing B. That won't work either, because anyone who's a realist, and i think most people are at least somewhat inclined towards realism, knows that there are exceptions to every rule. So now all the items on the list i just hinted at become conditional statements, like "A good parent doesn't punch their kid unless A happens." Nevermind that when there this list is endless and highly subjective once you get past the obvious choices. It is highly improbable that any two people will come up with the same list. There is no consensus, there never will be, because there can't be. But ignore that, let's pretend that you've got this list, this highly specific outline of what it is not okay for parents to do. Great. Now make a list of all the things it is okay for a parent not to do. Now get rid of both of them, because kids don't care about lists like that, and in fact, no matter how large or comprehensive your lists are, you probably haven't taken into account the fact that kids are actually individuals, with unique problems with unique solutions. What is "good" parenting for that fucker over there is horribly irresponsible or abusive to that fucker's little brother. What you will be left with, when you chop away all the stuff on your list, and deal with every little kid who won't stop talking on the plane, is nothing. Or maybe, like, three things if you're really stubborn. The general definition of a good parent you're left with is so vague as to be functionally nonexistent. There is no such thing as a good parent. There are only differing degrees that exist in reference to the amount of emotional, social, and financial scarring that ensue between the child's birth and whenever they stop talking to you. Even then, if your child comes out relatively unscathed, the fact that they came out relatively unscathed says absolutely nothing definitively about your skills as a parent. Nothing at all. All it says is that you didn't fuck things up, or if you did, other circumstances existed that canceled your fucking up of things out. Trent dilfer has a superbowl ring. It's just like that. So, the next time you feel like you have something compelling to say concerning the abilities of other people to raise their children, remember that they're probably doing the best they can, and that even if they weren't, you most likely don't actually know enough about their particular situation to talk about the color of their drapes, much less the quality of their child raising abilities, and even if you did, you don't have a fucking clue what it means to be a good parent in any kind of meaningful sense of the word.

09-22-2007, 11:19 PM	#2 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	I have always been certain that I didn't have that necessary something that makes a good parent. I am the last person to criticize someone trying to do their best in raising their child. I can be very judgemental about an out of control child, but I would never confront a parent about their "lack of skills." Is there a single term that encompasses arrogance, hypocracy, and self-rightiousness with a huge dose of ignorance? I suppose proper nouns shouldn't count. __________________ "You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

09-22-2007, 11:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	I'm just gonna' go out on a limb here and guess someone called you a bad parent? __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

09-22-2007, 11:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
Hyacinthe Psycho Location: Australia	Only time I have ever been pissed off with someone about their parenting skills was when i was parked in a driveway - woman walks past holding her childs hand - kid threw the lollypop he'd been sucking on at my car - shattered all over the windscreen - she pointed and laughed. Not that she's a bad parent she's just a bitch. Cleaning slobbery lollypop off my windscreen and out of the wipers on a hot day before it melts and solidifies is not a pleasant way to spend the afternoon. __________________ "I want to be remembered as the girl who always smiles even when her heart is broken... and the one that could brighten up your day even if she couldnt brighten her own" "Her emotions were clear waters. You could see the scarring and pockmarks at the bottom of the pool, but it was just a part of her landscape – the consequences of others’ actions in which she claimed no part."

09-23-2007, 03:56 AM	#7 (permalink)
analog Banned	filtherton: I disagree that there's no such thing as a "good parent". I know lots of great parents, including my own. I agree, though, that it would be pretty near impossible to laundry list what makes a good parent. There are, however, going to be some items on the list that seem obvious and universal to all good parents, no matter who is reading the list: love, affection, protection... There will also be things that immediately conjure an image of a bad parent, such as someone who abuses or neglects their kid. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that some people conjecture about what might fit on either "list". The bottom line is, people with kids often have a sense of entitlement that their opinion is king and the only one that matters, and that's plain nonsense. For every good parent, I could undoubtedly show you 1 or 2 bad ones- that's not exactly a great foundation on which to base your monopoly of opinion for the subject. If half to one-third of all people in a given group are a bad example to that group, saying that you know what you're talking about just because you're a member of that group is asinine. Many people who beat their kids say they're good parents, because they've justified the violence as a form of punishment. Those people could have 15 kids, and they still won't be good parents. Experience isn't everything. And just as having kids doesn't automatically make a person's opinion valid, not having kids doesn't automatically make a person's opinion invalid. I mean really... your entire argument revolves on someone not having ejaculated into a woman and caused issue. If I went out right now and impregnated a chick, you'd have nothing to say in 9 months, because I'd be another one of your breeder pals... and God help you then, if you tried to tell a fellow parent how to be a good parent! The earth would implode! I can't wait to condescend to people and tell them their opinions are worthless and only mine matter, because I participated in making a baby. Then I can live under the delusion that childbirth is a miracle- whee! But seriously. I may yet end up as a parent one day. I know, it's a very popular (but very incorrect) perception that I hate kids. I don't. I hate ill-mannered children. It just so happens that they make up the vast majority of children that I encounter in life, and therefore I tend to generalize all children in the same light. Some children, on the other hand, are quite pleasant. In my professional capacity, I enjoy helping children- they're tenfolds more appreciative of help and care than your average adult. Even when they're scared and confused, they genuinely seem to be thankful for taking care of them. I love that. I love helping people, and I don't do what I do so I can get recognition or thanks... but getting a thank you or an appreciative smile out of someone is the best perk there is. I almost just left this thread alone, but I know that some of you see me as famous- or maybe infamous- for this subject, and I didn't want to disappoint. Last edited by analog; 09-23-2007 at 04:05 AM..

09-23-2007, 04:28 AM	#9 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	While I agree there can't be a blanket, one-size-fits-all definition, I disagree that one wouldn't be able to differentiate a good parent from a bad one. Letting your kids run wild in Applebee's might not be bad parenting, but it's lousy control and misguided thinking. Same with being overbearing. A 'bad' parent doesn't meet the needs of the family at all and is neglectful, possibly violent towards the kids. I had my kids later in life and long after everyone in our circle of family and friends had theirs. I observed how they were with their own kids, knowing I wouldn't do much of what they were doing. Some of the things I allowed, my mother and friends thought I was wrong to do-I let my kids jump on the furniture, I let them watch The Simpsons , I didn't put 5 layers of clothes on them if it got chilly out and, Heavens!! I put them in the backyard naked on warm summer days. I have been 'accused' of being a 'bad parent' because I used wrist 'leashes', yet I wasn't one of those moms in the mall calling her kids' names because they'd wandered off or yelling at them to "get over here now!" Do I consider myself a 'good parent'? Most times. My now-teenagers are trustworthy , A-B students and quite self-sufficient and very polite. I did and do what I think is right and along the way I made mistakes, which I apologize for to my kids. I owe no explanations to anyone else. Bottom line is, a good parent can make mistakes. How would we know a good one from a bad one? Ask their kids.

09-23-2007, 04:35 AM	#10 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I can think of many things a "good parent wouldnt do" that wouldnt have one damn thing to do with me "knowing their situation" or there being "exceptions to a rule" A good parent doesn't molest their children (or their childrens friends) A good parent doesnt leave their children in a crack hotel while they are off in some other room looking to score their next hit A good parent doesnt prostitute herself in a one room crack hotel, with her children in the room trying to get money to score their next hit A good parent doesnt drown her children in her car because the man she is currently trying to latch onto doesnt want children __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

09-23-2007, 05:48 AM	#11 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	well shani: i think, in all fairness, those types of things might be part of the list that filtherton would say is sort of obvious... i think this is compounded by the fact, at least in context of the discussions we tend to have around here, by the effect of news-type articles having the tendency to highlight the extremes. cnn picks up on a kid who chopped the heads off of 42 passengers on a united air flight, then we read cnn, and we come here and argue about it. i think i learned something of what you're talking about, filterton, when my buddy had a beautiful little baby girl and the next thing i know, the fucking wiggles and tickle me elmo are on....all the fucking time. hard for me to understand, as i have no kids...i'd prefer they be reading books on philosophy or the like. which is completely ridiculous. theory => practice. i think it's a lot easier to judge others' parenting in a vacuum...when you're not keeping up with your own little varmits. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

09-23-2007, 06:51 AM	#13 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	Sometimes I'm a diplomatic person, sometimes I say things I later wish I didn't. When my daughter was 2, I used to carry her by her hands as she dangled in front of me. I would swing her from side to side. She would giggle and giggle and beg me to do it more. One day, I was walking down the street doing this with her, when a woman pushing a stroller approached me. I'll never forget this shit. She said, and I quote because I remember to this day exactly what she said, "You know, some people might consider it abusive to do what you're doing. You could dislocate her little, tiny shoulders." She said it with the same smug high-horse attitude filtherton alludes to in his opening post. I was a younger parent. I was 21 at the time. I remember exactly what I said to her. I said, "Why don't you mind your own fucking business and worry about not fucking up your own kids?" I kept walking with a big smile on my face. I hate busybodies, and I hate busybodies who think they're a better parent than you because they strap their future Columbine-kid into a 35-seat SUV and toss on a Disney DVD to shut them up while they drive across the street to WalMart and yet still feel the need to tell you that their little Baby Einstein needs to express himself by screaming himself to sleep at Starbucks. I don't hate kids. I hate the fucking overprotective, holier-than-thou suburbanite parents who think their little retarded shithead is somehow the next Bill Gates and want everyone to giver their little shithead all the room in Applebees he needs to run around in his stinky pull-ups. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

09-23-2007, 08:24 AM	#15 (permalink)
hotzot We're having potato pancakes! Location: stalag 13	I always figure you've been a good parent if your kids take care of you in your doltage. Rather than give you a bottle of whisky, strip you naked and put you in a snow bank. __________________ The Bully Boys are here!

09-23-2007, 08:33 AM	#16 (permalink)
squeeeb part of the problem Location: hic et ubique	i've been a pretty crappy parent, had no idea what the hell i was doing, i didnt even want to be a parent, i hate kids. yet somehow, my kid made it to college, has never been in trouble with the law, never did drugs or smoked pot, didn't get pregnant, wasn't much of a problem at all... maybe the secret to being a good parent is being a bad parent? __________________ onward to mayhem!

09-23-2007, 08:43 AM	#18 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I feel the same way about the concept of nutrition. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-23-2007, 09:22 AM	#19 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	Devils advocate... A good parent would not sexually abuse their child for any reason. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

09-23-2007, 09:42 AM	#21 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Interesting post. The whole thing is subjective, and I would say that intent and preparedness would go more into me calling someone a good parent than results. If someone is doing their absolute best, and they have done everything they can to provide a good environment, then I would be wrong to call them bad parents even if their kid ended up as Hitler.

09-23-2007, 10:32 AM	#22 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	infinite loser Nobody called me a bad parent. I just get annoyed with people who think they can, based on the bare minimum of information, judge the parenting abilities of a complete stranger (aside from the examples shani listed.) Sion You didn't really say anything there. All you basically said is that a good parent is one who conforms to your arbitrary definitions of a good parent. That's partly my point. I'm not saying i don't agree with your idea of what a parent should do on a personal note. There are a lot of instances where a parent should not support their child financially or emotionally - think if the kids an addict. Supporting them thusly is generally the exact opposite of what one would do if one actually wanted to help the kid out of their problem. analog Here's the thing. There exists a form of knowledge that can only be derived through experience. The idea that fertilizing an egg makes one more able to talk about being a parent is stupid and it has absolutely nothing to do with why you aren't in a position to talk about certain aspects of parenthood. Obviously anyone can talk about what its like to be a parent, and what it means to be a parent. That doesn't mean that everyone has anything interesting to say. It isn't the act of fertilizing an egg that makes one eminently qualified to speak as a parent. It is the experience of parenting. You do not have any experience parenting - you aren't a parent, and to my knowledge you haven't ever been one. The reason why people dismiss you when you talk about what it means to be a good parent is because the very nature of your opinions betray the fact that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. I'm sorry that this is so difficult to understand for you. It's the same reason i don't get tax advice from any of my friends. It isn't because they aren't as smart as a CPA, or that they aren't willing to offer tax advicet, it is because they don't know what the fuck they are talking about when it comes to taxes. If you went out and fertilized an egg, it would not be the fact that you fertilized an egg that would make you more qualified to speak about parenting (the fact that you think seem to think this idea worth repeating indicates to me that you don't know anything about being a parent), it would be the fact that after a certain period of time you would be parent and would thusly have experiences associated and experiential knowledge associated with parenthood. For instance, the thread about underage girls in porn; there are very few parents, and none that i am personally in contact with, that would associate a teenager posting nude pictures of themselves on the internet as being the sole result of bad parenting. This isn't because they are objectively smarter than you, this isn't because they are predisposed as parents to avoid acknowledging the failings of other parents, it is because they know how difficult it is to instill certain things in a child, and how difficult it is to compete with all of the other different ideas and perspectives that a child is exposed to. The fact that you can chalk it up solely to bad parenting- so much so that you imply that anyone who doesn't is intellectually dishonest- is a reflection of the fact that you are talking about something you fundamentally don't understand. It isn't the fact that you don't have a child, per se, that makes your opinion worthless, it's that you aren't any kind of authority on the subject. Shani It is easy to say, as far as some things go, what a good parent is not. In some places honor killings are considered good family policy, so it goes to show you never can tell. The vast majority of things are toss-ups. Those kids running around in applebees? I wouldn't assume their parents are bad. It is quite possible that mom and/or dad are exhausted. Kids are also annoying sometimes. pig Yes, it's kind of like that.

09-23-2007, 11:20 AM	#23 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I see good and bad parents every day in my line of work. Its very hard to say what makes someone a good parent. Sometimes it seems the kids themselves are of such a character that they do not 'need' a good parent to do well and be happy. Other times you can see its a kid with issues and the parent is doing everything they can to help and teach the child that what they are doing is unacceptable. Bad parents are easy to spot. Sometimes its their own selfishness other times its being to indulgent. Its sad when I see a future asshole in development and I just wish their parents would do something about their little prince/princess before its completely to late. Some are to hard on their kids others who don't seem to care that their daughter has a tramp stamp at 14. I'd say as a rule fucked up parents create fucked up future parents. I've seen some kids break out of this, and I'm glad either someone else helped them or their core character was such that they could see the problem in their parents as something not to emulate, but they are notable as exceptions. I'd also add until you have kids of your own, you don't 'get' it. You can't. Its like explaining what sex is like to a virgin. Since having children of my own I tend to have a lot more respect and understanding for other parents, even those who I think are screwing up. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-23-2007, 11:38 AM	#24 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	For my next thread: Absolute Power: Bad Parenting __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."