Cynthetiq

add to that Lurkette's situation which we witnessed here a couple years ago. Again, walks the walk that is talked.

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LoganSnake

No idea what you're talking about.

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Push-Pull

I gotta agree. Until you're put in that situation, you don't know how you would react. That is definitely some life-altering stuff that would most likely shatter any current concepts or beliefs of justice you have.

Knowing myself, if that happened to my wife and kid, the perps would be LUCKY if I ONLY shot them point blank in the face with a shotgun. If I may quote my former boss...."I have a backhoe that digs down 21 feet. They stop looking after 8 or so."

Personally (and I'm not trying to start a religious slant...) I think God would know the difference between outright evil and retribution.

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"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me-

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DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

Cynthetiq

The short story: A family member was killed, there was opporunity for retribution of some sort, but Lurkette and her family decided for forgiveness instead of destroying another family via retribution.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

LoganSnake

Do you have a link to that thread?

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Cynthetiq

I don't know if it was a thread, it may be in a journal entry.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...t=brother+died is the thread wherein she asked members to spread the ashes of her brother around the world.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

LoganSnake

Okay, here's my $0.02. If my loved one were hit by a car, I'd make sure the driver lost his license for as long as possible, plus served some jail time. If something that was described in the article happened to the loved one, I'm afraid to think what I would do to those people. Push-Pull had the right idea. Shotgun to the face would be too nice of a punishment.

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Hyacinthe

I've been in a situation closer to that poor womans then I would ever wish on another living being. Vengence won't make her feel better, it won't help her get over it, it won't make her able to look her son in the eyes (providing the torture done to him hasn't blinded him) again.

Nothing will ever remove the burden that she's now living under. Torturing those boys is infact not going to help her in any way shape or form, all it will do is make society feel like it's doing something.

There's a reason that the majority of legal systems in the world allow punishment to be passed out by an objective person / collection of people.

1) so that the victims don't have to live under the guilt and horror of not only their own suffering but knowing that they caused the death of another human being ( all very well to decide they should die now but they might feel differently in 5 years)

2) Incase a mistake is made. Numerous cases over the years have been appealed or new evidence has come to light which proves that the person in jail was not actually guilty.

I know that people want criminals to pay and I agree with you, they should. I know that the legal systems all over the world have problems. It's alot easier to find the problems in these systems then fix them though.

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Fire

And I support the Victims right to make a decision- if the victims want to not pursue vengence, then that is their right- if they feel that they could live with condemning another person to death, then that too, is their right..........I know victims who will sleep better when their attacker is put to death- not for revenge, but for the knowledge that that person cannot hurt anyone else , ever, if they are dead........

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katyg

thats the nost shocking thing i've heard in a long time.
good case for capital punishment, sick sick sick

Baraka_Guru

Have you ever read any Greek tragedies... or perhaps even some of Shakespeare's? I will repeat: evil begets evil. Vengeance leads to vengeance leads to vengeance. You kill my brother, I kill yours, you kill me, my father kills you, your father feeds my father's children to my mother. Where is the justice?

And as far as having knowledge that the person cannot hurt anyone else... that is what incarceration is for. There are several reasons why capital punishment has fallen out of favour. Think about it.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Fire

the cycle of violence can have a start and an end- the murderer in my personal example started it by killing two innocent people- it will end with his death, hopefully when he runs out of appeals.... but if allowed to I would end his life in a heartbeat- to use your analogy you have to believe that vengeance is evil - that to want to harm those that harm you is wrong- I have never, and will never, subscribe to a philosophy of turning the other cheek, because it does not work- stupid violence and over-reactive revenge is are a bad idea, but if harmed I will feel quite justified in harming someone back within reasonable proportion, indeed more than they harmed me- as this will tend to prevent further injury to me. I stress again that vigilanteeism is not what I advocate, nor reprisals out of proportion with the crime- but revenge is perfectly acceptable to me on principal and in practice......

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Baraka_Guru

So you're saying that if someone committed an evil act on you, you would return the evil? What do you mean by "reasonable proportion"? Do you mean "equal proportion"?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Fire

If someone commited a violent, evil act on me, I would not feel bad about doing something bad and violent to them- I would not rape someone who raped me, for instance, but I would surely shoot them dead without loosing sleep- and as to reasonable proportion, I feel that what they did and then a little more should be about right- this is meant to deter people who hurt others, so a little more visited on the perp seems like a good idea.

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Baraka_Guru

Are you a viking?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ASU2003

I'm another person who thinks th cruel and unusual punishment clause shouldn't apply to cases like this. It might not make the victims feel any better, but it would make me feel better for knowing that they didn't get away with something.

For rape that is forceful, unwanted and violent my punishment would be to allow rats to eat the testicles of the violaters, while they are still attached. I would think that rape cases would decrease for some reason.

Consider yourself lucky that I wasn't around when the constitution was being written.

LoganSnake

Amen to that.

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jorgelito

And what would happen if you got the wrong guy? Should their family and loved ones now be able to dispense the kind of torture and punishment reflecting the pain and suffering you caused them by torturing to death the wrong person?

If you don't think this is possible, just look at the thread where a mob killed an innocent passenger of a car that accidentally hit someone.

Yeah, believe it or not, there actually is a thread going on right now where people are being extra sensitive not to offend others who may enjoy such activities. In fact the title thread was changed so as not to offend.

Baraka_Guru

And isn't there compelling evidence that capital punishment is not a deterrent to homicide? Why would this sex crime be any different.

Electricity, lethal injection, rats chewing on testicles... they all sound pretty bad to me. What is the homicide rate like in Texas these days?


Try here for starters.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

jorgelito

Apparently capital punishment is not even enough of a deterrent to "white collar" crime. China executes the most people in the world, even for things like corruption but it hardly stops them still.

wheelhomies

i avoided reading this for a while because i knew it would upset me, and seriously, hearing that kind of stuff affects me to the core. i can't believe anyone would be that sick.

and using a condom?? wtf is the point of that? maybe they were afraid that if she got pregnant they would definitely be found guilty...but...ugh...

people are so sick...

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Fire

no, I am not a viking, nor to my knowledge related to any- and I do not advocate mob violence- at all, anywhere- what I do advocate is granting the victims of a convicted violent criminal the right to decide his punishment, within parameters agreed upon by the community- harsh parameters, to be sure, but we are not talking about a lynch mob here- we are talking about the rights of the injured party to see justice done by their own hand if they so choose.......

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Baraka_Guru

So victims can choose from sentencing options set out by a jury or judge? That sounds patronizing to the victim, does it not?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Fire

Have you ever been a victim? I think you would find that many of them could handle this fairly well- and would welcome it......

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Baraka_Guru

Actually, yes, I have been a victim, and while at one point in my life I might have considered such an opportunity, this is no longer the case. The reason? I know it would do nothing but worsen my own situation. I cannot justify taking responsibility for someone's punishment based solely on the fact that I was the victim--especially in cases where punishment is severe. What is wrong with "an eye for an eye" is not merely what you do to others, it is what effect it has upon your self.

The reason why victims should not be given this power is due to the emotional stock they have in the situation. Justice should not be fueled by emotion, it should be based on reason.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Fire

you are entitled to your opinion, but I in my experience do not agree with it..... to each their own, and good luck....

__________________
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Mood the more as our might lessens

LoganSnake

Just out of curiosity, what would you consider to be a reasonable punishment for the assailants in this case?

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Fire

not directed at me, but in my opinion, death- the people who did this are not going to reform, or be rehabilitated- the victims should decide the manner of their death....... or if they want, decide not to kill them in the hope they will reform.....

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Baraka_Guru

Whatever is in accordance with the laws of that jurisdiction; assuming they are considered reasonable within certain degree by, say, standards outlined by the United Nations.

I would say that, with the particular heinousness of these crimes, that sentencing should include many years of incarceration, but I imagine the rules are different if the accused will be tried in a juvenile court. (This is altogether another issue up for debate.)

Whether the guilty decide to spend their sentences brooding in anger or passing the time with remorse is entirely up to them. I know the victims didn't choose to be victims... but the assailants won't be able to choose the consequences--the outcome of their actions will be handed to them.

Your opinion is worrisome to me. How low should the death penalty go? ...and would the victims be able to skin the victims alive? Gouge out their eyes? Would this be televised? Would that restore harmony to society?

Your idea of justice isn't only sad, it is illogical. You condone wanton violence as a response to violence. This isn't justice, this is madness.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

blade02

I'm from America and have a pretty basic understanding of the law to know this isn't how it works. I just have a fairly practical view of the justice system. In my opinion this is how the punishment/rehabilitation system should work....

If you are proven guilty, then the jury should first decide on whether or not they think you can be rehabilitated into a useful member of society.

If they think the guilty can be reformed, you're sent to a prison that specializes in reform and offers programs such as counseling, rehab, and job skills training. All the while you must work most of the day towards keeping the place running to earn your food, electricity, water, etc.

If they do not think you can be reformed, then the guilty is sent to a prison where the focus is on keeping the guilty seperated from the public. Like the reform prison, you have to earn your food and water. But there is no air conditioning, no electricity, no tv's, no creature comforts... just simply existence. I dont really see how someone who was found, unreformable, would be sentenced to only 10 or 15 years. Most likely only people that traditionaly get either sentenced to death or life in prison would be sent to these prisons. This being the case, you can life until you're no longer able to do the work to support yourself. Or to avoid the expense of keeping some one locked up for the rest of their life, you can simply shoot them and get it over with.

The people who committed the crime in discussion definetly don't show any signs of any future worth. Therefore I see no point in investing in keeping them alive.

LoganSnake

Madness? This. Is. SPARTA!


But seriously, you think that human beings have come far from the middle ages where public executions were common place and even a form of entertainment. I don't necessarily want to say that you're wrong, because there is certainly a level of advancement, but people will always be people. That means that we, as humankind, will always want bloodshed in some type shape or form. While I do recognize a higher level of civilization, the primal instincts of brutal retaliation are still within us. This is why I am not surprised in the least by the responses here that propose torture or some form of killing.

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p0thead

yikes... kids are too crazy now a days

Cynthetiq

Eleanor Roosevelt: “Justice cannot be for one side alone but must be for both.”

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

smooth

No they won't.
Especially in Florida.

These guys are going away for a long time.
If that's part of your concern, feel assured that their punishment will be severe.

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biznatch

It is not turning the other cheek. Turning the other cheek leaves you vulnerable.
What people hope to do by putting criminals in jail is stopping those criminals from hurting you, or other people, again.
Revenge will bring more revenge. At least with prison, you're safe from the guy.

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Martian

The English tried that once, but the convicts didn't 'deal with themselves.' Instead they all started saying 'g'day, mate' and spending a lot of time at the beach.

The problem here I reckon is one of separating the visceral response. This is an atrocity and there's a very real, emotional reaction involved. I think, however, that ratbastid has demonstrated in his car example that it's not always (or even very often) a good idea to follow through on the emotion.

Capital punishment is an issue that I'm not going to go into here, except to say that I don't support it.

Aside from that, objectivity is absolutely crucial in determining what the appropriate resolution is here. You and I don't have all the facts, we don't know exactly what went down. We have a decidedly and understandably sensationalistic news report. Sensationalism sells, but it rarely offers the whole truth. Maybe one of the boys is an essentially good kid who got caught up in the mob and found himself too deep to back out. Maybe there's hope for one or two of these guys. Or maybe they're all sociopathic monsters who should never again see the light of day. There will be more arrests; it's entirely possible that someone not involved in any way will end up being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't have any of this information. How can I possibly suggest what an appropriate punishment would be?

Fire, I don't know what your experience was, but it sounds very sad. Nevertheless, you will not heal until you learn to let it go and be okay with what happened. I know that's going to sound strange to you, but it's true all the same. I hope that when your attacker is punished it'll give you some peace, but I don't think that's particularly likely.

It saddens me a bit to know that there are people who are that afraid for their lives, whether it's a justified fear or not.

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I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
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- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

ratbastid

It makes me think twice about being social or neighborly. Who knows what people are packing behind those doors?

Fire

We have home invasions here- and my neighborhood has had a few since we bought the house- I own a home based business that has had a store front downtown, and we do local sales events, and we sell weapons- so quite a few people know that I might have cash / and or easily pawnable stuff on hand- my wife's mother was murdered, by a very bad man, who prior to this stalked my wife and her mom for about a year, and at one point assembled a bomb to blow them up (this is a matter of record from his trial) several of his friends testified to avoid jail time for helping him, and are still wandering around- Finally, my best friends are mostly active duty cops, deputies, or leo professionals of some stripe, and they will all state simply, that the police cannot protect anyone- they have no ability to effectively do anything until after a crime happens- call 911 all you like, it takes precious time for them to arrive- so yes, I follow a security procedure that involves being prepared if i answer my door and some nut job tries to force their way in - incidentally I also know and am on good terms with my neighbors- who are quite nice people really......and I do not, i should state, brandish a weapon to anyone who comes to the door after dark- having it does not require that anyone know it. the suggestions that I made are also, btw what the average neighborhood watch will tell you- except that they will say that you should not answer the door at all after dark - I would go with that too, except that 3 years ago a battered woman rang my doorbell at about 2am- I answered the door (armed) and called the cops for her- as bad as things can be, I try to give a shit and help when possible, but that same desire to help those in need was the very one that was exploited by the rapists in the case that started this discussion, and anyone would do well to become aware of basic personal safety rules......

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