essendoubleop

I was wondering if you really think it is worth all the extra trouble the airlines put you through for security purposes. I hate flying on planes for this sole reason, but there's nothing I can do but bend over and take it. Amtrak will be my method of long-distance travel from now on.

I realize why the need for extra security measures have been employed, albeit to some ridiculous measures. So I want to find some raw data on why the change. Obviously 9/11 had a revolutionary. But how many hijackings have occurred IN THE UNITED STATES over the 20 years? I know it was a fairly common terrorist tactic in the 70s, partly because of poor terrorist negotiation policies. But you don't really hear of this happening IN THE UNITED STATES that often. Millions of safe flights have occurred in the same period. Do you think this is an image tactic? Does anyone have actual statistics of the number of reported airplane hijackings IN THE UNITED STATES?

PS, I capitalized United States because I have no desire of flying internationally, as I'm well aware that it's a whole other ballgame security-wise when flying elsewhere. That's a different topic and has a different set of statistics.

Pesto

No, I'm not convinced that the new "security measures" are really doing anything. There are all sorts of ridiculous stories I've heard, like a guy being stopped because security couldn't decide if the jelly layer in a cake violated the rule about liquids and gels.

Cynthetiq

http://aviation-safety.net/database/....php?Event=SEH

Lists all the hijackings and what countries they originated within.

I counted 11 since 1985, and that includes the 4 from 9/11.

The other 7 I only recall 1 of them in the news.

As far as taking Amtrak, they still put you through security as well at least here in Penn Station NYC.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

mirevolver

That depends on where you fly outside the US. I've seen better aiport security outside the US with less hassle. Frankfurt am Main International Airport in Germany in my experience has the best airport security outside of Isreal. Yet in all the times I've been in and out of that airport, I've never had a hassle with security. Granted I have been pulled aside by the German police there and thoroughly questioned because of something in my passport, but even then, they were respectful, I answered their questions honestly and after a brief precautionary hand search of my bags (in which everything was kept in its neatly packed order), the matter was settled and I made it to my flight with plenty of time to spare. And they were also upfront with me that if it were up to them, they wouldn't have seen a need to question and search me, but they were forced to because I was on a flight bound for the US.

The only thing I have a gripe with about US airport security is that you have to remove your shoes. That's BS. That was just a kneejerk reaction to one idiot trying to set off plastic explosives by setting his feet on fire and so now we must irradiate our shoes with the x-ray machine everytime we fly. Yet were also not allowed to bring matches or lighters on a plane anyways.

__________________
Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions.

ziadel

I don't provide ID when I'm travelling, so no more planes for me.

Makes me sick that you cant even get on a train without having to prove who you are.

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

Pesto

It's not like you can hijack a train and crash it into the side of a building.

Carno

Is airport security really that bad? I mean seriously, all you have to do is stand in line, put the contents of your pockets and your belt in a tray, and remove your shoes. Then you come through the metal detectors and put it all back.

Wow. That sure is a trial and tribulation. Is it really worth it to forego several hours faster (and 1000x more awesome) travel time just because the authorities want to make sure you don't have a bomb on you?

__________________
http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

Pesto

No, the regulations are just extremely silly.

Carno

Make a list for me. Which regulations?

__________________
http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

Cynthetiq

No but you can blow up multiple trains ala the bombings in Madrid March 11, 2004, killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Pesto

The rediculous liquids and gels rule.

Any place where large groups of people gather could be targeted like this. I don't see it as a problem specific to trains.

snowy

One of the reasons I prefer to travel by train for shorter distances (like Eugene-Seattle, or Eugene-Vancouver, B.C.) is because of the lack of hassle. Furthermore, I trust those conductors to take control of the situation if something got out of hand--I've seen them haul drunk people off of the train (after Mariners and Seahawks games) several times. Sure, there is less security, and you can bring your own food on a train. But there's also a stop every so often at which point you can detrain passengers that might be questionable or threatening to those around them. You cannot stop a plane at 30,000 feet.

I would never take a train in the United States long-distance. I've been on several of the major long distance train routes in the U.S. already, and they're a wonderful way to see the country--but if you want to get somewhere on time, it's NOT the way to travel. However, their shorter corridor trains are handy and I take the train at least four or five times a year, if not more.

I really don't think airport security is that much of a hassle. But the airport in Portland tends to handle it well.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

kevpdx

Yeah, PDX is nice, always in and out of security in less than 10 min.

Walking Shadow

So you don't even take your drivers license with you when you drive your car?

Great.

And please explain why it is some hysterical outrage that you be asked to identify yourself? Are you so paranoid that you think that by showing ID you will be put on some government watch list or some mailing or call list?

As for airport security in the US, one of the biggest if not the biggest problems is that the only qualifications to be airport security are not to have a criminal record and have a high school diploma/GED. Basically you have to be literate, and the pay isn't much above what you'd get at McDonald's and you have to face people who are much more hostile if you work airport security then at McDonald's.

But an overarching thing is this: if there wasn't this type of security and someone did hijack a plane and crash it into a building, people would be shrieking and screaming and calling for the public execution of various public officials.

The_Dunedan

Here here!

Give me train travel any day. You can put your feet up across the compartment, walk around, bring (edible) food with you, and it only costs 600Kc to go from Prague to Bratislava, or 780 to go to Dresden and back. It takes awhile, but it's a great way to see the country, and they do run on time, believe it or not.

Security consists of armed conductors and bored border-cops. You walk onto the platform, you get on the train, you shove your luggage into the rack. No muss, no fuss, not so much as a metal-detector. GAWD I love living in a civilized (kinda) country.

Never have done AmTrak, though...too pricey.

NoSoup

A week ago I just flew back to Green Bay from Dallas, and the security was ridiculously pathetic.

Certainly, I had to take off my shoes so they could be X-rayed, but in my carry-on bag (the only luggage I brought) I had an extra pack of smokes and a lighter that they didnt' mention, and I walked through the security gates with an opened 20oz bottle of Mountain Dew in my hand. I asked if they needed to take it, and they just waved me through.

Although they did take the lighter that was in my pocket, they did offer me a book of matches to take along instead....

Color me confused

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

Pesto

This is the kind of BS security that I'm talking about.

http://www.nowpublic.com/nightmare_a...curity_stories

Wow, I feel safe now!

Ourcrazymodern?

The signs along the freeways announcing today's threat level make me feel a lot safer. What a waste we've made of our promise.

Uh- not to mention our tax dollars.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

uncle phil

i had occasion to fly from phoenix to tampa a few weeks ago...stuffed an 8 oz. bottle of suntan lotion into my carry-on rather than my golf bag...needless to say, it was confiscated after my carry-on went through the X-ray machine...i'll bet that bottle of coppertone is empty by now...

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

Charlatan

I travel quite a bit and while I love the quaint luxury of the train it just isn't practical for going across the country or across the ocean (i.e. NYC to Toronto is OK but Toronto to LA or Shanghai is not).

The security measures are a pain in the ass to be sure but really... how difficult are they? It's a couple minutes of your time.

As for examples like the link above, you are talking about a problem with an overzealous security agent. This is far from ordinary. This issue here is not with the security regulation but rather with an idiot who is either power tripping or unable to use reason and think for himself.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

World's King

Is it that hard to fallow rules?

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

ShaniFaye

Its the responsibility of anyone who flies to check the rules. Every single time Dave flies we check the rules to see if they have changed in the US and we check the rules of the international airport he will be in.

Its up to us to do our part too by NOT having things you're not supposed to have and "holding up the line". If you are prepared knowing the rules you wont have these little "inconveniences". Just because there are some security agents out there that dont catch everything, doesnt take the responsibility of knowing what you can and cant have off of you

as far as a train? hell no....Dave and I priced taking Amtrak from Atlanta to Boston, not only was it going to be more than twice the price per person, it was going to take 24 hours (including the layover in DC) to get there.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Grasshopper Green

"Security" is a fact of life in the US today. Go to any major venue...a sporting event, large amusement park, a concert, and you will have to pass through "security". I've had to wait just as long to get past the Disneyland checkpoint as I've waited in the airport.

Do I feel safer? No. I've posted about this before, but I've had no-no items in my purse before that weren't caught, and I've also had my son's diaper opened up and checked to make sure I wasn't smuggling something in that way. I also don't intend on letting things like this alter my lifestyle to the point that I stop attending and doing things I enjoy because I have to inconvenienced for a few minutes.

__________________
"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

jorgelito

No, it is not a "couple of minutes" of your time, usually a couple of hours. That is significant. And it is a hassle. As a business traveler, to take off my shoes, belt, suit jacket, take my laptop out of my bag, then put all that stuff back on and in my bag is cumbersome. At least I can go throught the Elite line but still, it is a hassle cause the lines are always really, really long no matter what.

The liquids rule is ridiculous. I don't understand why I can't have a bottle of water with me, when I travel. The worst is when I bought some hot sauce at the AIRPORT store (in the boarding gates area), then, only to find out they were checking people's bags and makeing us walk through the metal detector and taking off our shoes and jackets and taking laptops out AGAIN. When they saw my hot sauce (not really a liquid - it's very thick, like peanut butter; and obviously bought at the airport store in the boarding gate area) they forbade me to bring it on the plane. Stupidest policy ever. Apparently this only applies to US bound flights.

Frankfurt and Munich ARE NOT fast efficient lines because they have a separate section for US bound flights that are so long, the extend to other parts of the aitport. Whe I travel around the EU, it's great, lots of freedom of movement and minimal (RE: none) hassle. However, head for the States and your travel plans become a night mare. EX: If you pass through Frankfurt, most likely you are transiting. Instead of an efficient pass-through, you wind up waiting at least 2 hours in line just to make your connecting flight. The thing is, you are already checked before. Needless to say, there are hundreds of stressed out people who are anxious about making their flight in time. Stupid, stupid policy.

Israel does not have great security. Well, they are thorough but instead of the 1.5-2 hours arrive time, you have to be there 3.5-4 hours before hand. It is absolutely nuts. I arrived at the airport at 5am and barely made my 9am flight on time. Still had to rush.

Airport/airlie security needs to be reformed.

Ourcrazymodern?

Wings. They impress me but they don't profit anybody, unless we're all retarded. Damn, I wish I felt morally free to fly somewhere.

The security precautions the airlines take are paranoiac, but necessary.
Take your conveniences while you can.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Charlatan

I suppose I have to add the caveat that the majority of the travel that I do does not involve traveling to, or through the US. I make every effort to avoid going through the US these days because the of the whole "no liquids" thing.

It really sounds like what is being bitched about here is US (and perhaps UK) security measures. I fly out of Changi airport now and while they have pretty tight security, the lines are rarely all that long. The main reason for this is that they've organized the airport differently from most other airports I've been through. Rather than having one security choke point they set up the security at individual departure lounges or for groups of lounges. This means that you are only waiting in line with, at most, the contents of one or two flights.

Perhaps, if security is to remain an issue, we ought to look at restructuring how bodies flow through the airport.

As for the liquids thing... I agree, it's a stupid rule.

As for it being hours and hours. I have yet to spend more than 30 minutes from Check in to Lounge in any flight I've ever taken. Most of that time is spent queuing to check in. Since getting elite status, it's usually much less.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

ngdawg

When I flew to KC last summer(out of Newark by way of Atlanta), I had flipflops on, had checked my suitcase and only had my purse. I had to remove the flipflops and put those and the bag into the xray doohickey. I'd worn the flipflops thinking I wouldn't have to take off any shoes and hold things up, plus the idea of being shoeless in a public place rattles me. When I remarked "You're kidding, right? They're flipflops!", the agent just shrugged and said, "You never know what can get stored in those...."
When I arrived at Atlanta, knowing I had at least an hour before I had to board, I strolled, saw their smoking lounge and reached into my bag and....
pulled out a Bic lighter. Didn't know it was there. I was Queen of the smoking lounge "How'd you get through with that???" Stupidity, I reckon...
I got through KC with it too coming home. And sat waiting for the flight watching a man, apparently of Meditteranean descent, get thoroughly frisked.
Airport security is just full of bad jokes....

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Redlemon

My real issue with it, is that every time they do an actual test of the system, it fails. For instance...

So, if we assume that airport security will not prevent dangerous materials from getting on planes, what use is it? I see it as one of two things:

1. They can't stop now, because we want to believe that it works.
2. They want us to continue to fear that there may be a problem.

However, the real problem with airports is the frickin' delays. Three out of my last four flights were significantly delayed, anywhere from 3 to 10 hours.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Walking Shadow

So it's a hassle.

Too fucking bad. Unless the world unites and somehow manages to kill off every single nutjob and terrorist it ain't gonna change. shut up and deal.

As for Israel not having great security, that's just an out and out lie. Tell me, how many El Al flights have been hijacked in the last 25 years?

And finally, precisely how should airport security be reformed? should you and you alone be allowed to say "fuck you" and just breeze on through to your flight?

Yeah, that's not being too selfish.

Cynthetiq

I guess then that Iceland has great security too... since IcelandAir hasn't had any hijackings...

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Walking Shadow

Umm, "dangerous material" goes on thousands of plane flights every day, in fact without it, the planes wouldn't be able to fly.

It's called jet fuel.

But as for your linked bit of nonesense, so what if someone was able to take the parts of a bomb through airport security? They'd still have to find some privacy to put the damn thing together and these days that's virtually impossible. And there's no way they'd be able to put it together once they were on the plane, that'd be WAY too suspicious.

Charlatan

That all depends on the type of bomb.

The whole point being made by redlemon was that the very things the security measure are there to stop made it through security during official testing. If we are to follow your logic, we don't need security beyond what we had before 9/11 because, people don't have the privacy to make explosives and the passengers are ready and watching.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Jinn

Show me your papers!

What, like grammar or spelling rules?

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Redlemon

First off, bathrooms = privacy. On land or in the air, assuming you are quick enough.

Second, my link was just an example, the first one I could find. You could also try these three, each from a different year:
Yeah, and they still missed 10%!

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

lurkette

What bothers me most about airport "security" is not just the hassle (although it is annoying and time-consuming) but the fact that the hassle is such ineffective window-dressing that is doing no bloody fucking good at all. It's a giant, immediately visible band-aid on the bleeding wound that is U.S. intelligence and disaster preparedness failures. Every time I have to put my "freedom baggie" full of "freedom-sized" toiletries through the scanner with my motherfucking All Star sneakers I wonder what our incompentent government is messing up. And every time the rules are applied differently at different airports, or some innocent grandmother is hassled by a TSA-uniformed high school dropout on a power trip, my blood pressure goes up just a little more. Shame on any sheep who think any of this is making us safer. It's protecting us from the aborted idiot attacks of yesterday, not from the Next Big Attack. First it was laptops out and random searches. Fine. Then it was taking your shoes off. Whatever. Now it's random searches, take your shoes off, laptop out, jackets off, no more than a baggie full of liquid (and if you have more they'll dump it oh-so-safely into a barrel with bottles of other potentially terroristic liquids). What the fuck is next?

Bruce Schneir makes my day. These are excerpts from an entry in his blog from yesterday: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archive...it_of_the.html

I'm a lot more afraid of our economy collapsing in debt from this ridiculous war and living out my retirement years in postapocalyptic poverty than I am about some terrorist bringing down my plane between fucking Greensboro and Minneapolis.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Carno

Boo hoo hoo. Cry me a river. It is what it is, and I doubt it will ever change. Airport security, such as it is, is here to stay.

If you have any better ideas about how to prevent people from doing bad things, by all means tell us.

__________________
http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

Redlemon

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Jinn

If you've seen any bad porn, you know that things the size of water bottles CAN be concealed in the orifices of women, and even some men. If we all went to naked security, we'd probably be subject to cavity searches instead.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Grasshopper Green

I've never waited more than 10-15 minutes to get through the security checkpoint. Half an hour to find a parking space, and an hour to check my damn bags? Sure. Then again, I only fly once or twice per year on average, so perhaps I'm just lucky.

__________________
"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

Ourcrazymodern?

ouch.

Airport security used to think itself adequate. It was proven wrong and went overboard. Planes take off all the time, even now.

Waiting in line is preferable to being blown up.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT