lurkette

I was going to post this in the LL but thought that everyone should weigh in (no pun intended) on this.

Dove has this "Real Beauty" ad campaign that they're running, and I wholeheartedly approve. I'm sick of being shown images of women with unhealthily thin bodies and told I'm supposed to look like that! Add to that the fact that I'm turning 35 this year, drifting further and further away from the "youthful ideal," and I'm getting pissed as hell about our culture's standards for "acceptable" appearance.

Anyhow, at the movie theater a couple of weeks ago they played this ad before the previews:

http://www.doveproage.com/

And the audience all went "Eeeeyew!" and groaned and shit when they saw these bodies. Now, they're a little wrinkly, but we should be so lucky to look that good at that age!

WTF is up with people? How did we get sold this bullshit and opt into it so completely that it seems natural and normal? Celebrities are vilified for being too skinny, but they're also ridiculed for being fat (e.g., Reese Witherspoon's "bloat," the constant watch for "baby bumps" that are really just normal fucking stomachs!), or for wearing body shapers (Katie Holmes). I read once that for centuries women's bodies were contorted into the desirable shapes of the day by corsets; now, the body is its own corset! We're expected to WILL ourselves into a certain shape - don't eat too much, pound your metabolism into submission for an hour a day on the treadmill - and if that doesn't work, go under the knife, or buy whatever product promises to help make you acceptable and desirable.

OK, now I'm just ranting.

Here are my questions:

To what extent do you find your standards of beauty influenced by the media? Like, really, when you think about it honestly?

For women, do you compare yourself to other women, in the media and in real life?

Men, do women judge themselves/each other more harshly than men do?

What can be done to change the (IMHO dangerous) trend toward unattainable and unrealistic standards of beauty? I realize that some things are evolutionarily hard-wired, but most of our standards are socially constructed. How do we deconstruct them and rebuild them in a positive way?

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Sultana

I saw the same ad at the theater, with the same responses. Initially I was angry at the "children" making the Ewww noises, but I did recognize that they're young, stupid, and probably embarrassed to be looking at 15-ft-tall naked mature women (albeit tastefully covered), much less those who don't fulfill the 16-yr-old size 00 concept...

Of course my perception of beauty if is influenced by my upbringing, of which media was a huge part. I'd like to think I'm becoming more independant in my views as I (gasp!) age.

At this point I have to strive to be, and embody the change I'd like to see, to dredge up an old chestnut. But also we have to recognize that we live in a capitalistic society, sex sells, and the uncreative majority will always make a fantastic living pandering to the lowest common denominator.

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"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

ngdawg

This had been brought up many months back and linked to a Dove forum, which I then went into. What a bunch of condescending crap in there!! 20-somethings cheering us older ones on as if we were handicapped marathoners...
I have always had appearance issues-never remember not having any, so I can't say it's all media-based, but it seems as if it's more 'in-your-face' the last 10 years. Lip plumpers(which I figured I'd give a whirl-it's glorified moisturizer), jeans designed to push up the butt and push in the stomach(uh, just buy tight ones for half the price)....
Little 'inside' story: Those women you see in ads touting some moisturizer as making them 'look years younger' are years younger. Family members own a large modelling agency and some of their women have appeared in those ads-they're in their 20's, but used as being 'older'. Kohl's currently has a beauty campaign that borders on the ridiculous. It starts with the announcement, "Want to know Ashley Judd's secret to looking young?" Uh, she's not even 40, that's her secret. That and good filters. Even her cleavage in the posters is added in.
Frankly, getting older and seeing the tightness get not so tight is disconcerting, but it beats not being around to see it at all. There are now nonsurgical FDA-approved procedures that will fix all that and I'm considering it. I'm lucky that I appear to others as 10 years younger than I am , but that doesn't mean I can't change a few things I don't like. Does it mean I'm being taken in by all this? Maybe...it does answer the 'other women' question to an extent, though. I want to continue being the best I can be-mentally, I can do that myself; physically, I am not adversed to seeking options.
How many of us see someone who turns out to be the same age and our first reaction is 'Damn! Does she look that bad or do I look that good??' Anyone who claims to really not give a shit about how they look is lying. We choose clothes, hairstyles, even lack of either, based on aesthetics. Were that not the case, we'd still be in animal skins and combs would never have been invented.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

ubertuber

A) Standards of beauty are such a chicken and egg thing. Of course the media influences standards of beauty, but then, the media is controlled by consumer response. So, I guess you could say that the media amplifies cultural trends - or it consistently normalizes extremes, painting our society into a corner of valuing unattainable standards.

B) As a man, I think that women judge themselves and each other FAR more harshly than men do. Yeah, I know that men supposedly have such unrealistic ideals and we objectify and so on... But somehow that lame dismissiveness that men learn seems to cut less deeply than the comments I hear women say about themselves and each other. They really mean that stuff, whereas men are mostly declaring themselves unwilling to think about it deeply.

C) I question the thing about evolutionary wiring. The Rubenesque beauty valued by the Polynesian cultures is cited too often, but I think it demolishes the idea that our current standards of beauty and health are really biologically informed. If anything, I guess you could say that scientific knowledge has helped to mold our ideals towards fit people - which are not the "Twiggy" type.

EDIT: Lurkette, thanks for putting this where the boys can comment too!

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Dilbert1234567

i try very hard to reject the media, just on principle. I'm sick of how we can have horrible things going on in the world and we are more concerned with what Britney shaved today.

unfortunately yes, but i don't think this is just women judging women more, i think society judged women harsher. it is socially acceptable for a guy to have a gut, it is not for a woman.

with pitch forks and torches!!! or maybe break the societal standards, we should stop focusing purely on appearance and rather on the person inside. we've got to realize that the people we are shown in the media are not the average and we should not expect women to look like that. there is nothing wrong with a wrinkle or a fold.

here is an old thread of mine that is related....
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=35824

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eileenbunny

I can say that I'm becoming more influence than I used to be. I'm almost 32 and I still get carded for buying cigarettes, so I know I look young. Still, I find myself spending 3X the amount of time in the bathroom every day than I did five years ago. I have hundreds of dollars of beauty products that are supposed to tighten, smooth, de-blotch, plump, lengthen, brighten, shine or whatever. When I walk out of the bathroom I'm not sure I look that much better, but I buy this stuff anyway.

At the same time I'm more comfortable now with my body than I ever have been. I'm really trying to enjoy the body I have right now because I know I'm not going to have it forever. I hope that when I don't I'll enjoy that too or it won't matter so much to me. Sure I'm not as tall as other women, I'm practically flat-chested, and my hair isn't the most beautiful color, and my skin isn't perfect, but I think I'm pretty enough. I don't think most of the women in the media look like that in real life either. If someone followed me around with photoshop and an airbrush (and could alter reality with those tools) I'd look great all the time too!

I have no idea what can be done. We could start buy not buying all these products, shutting down all the plastic surgeons, ignoring the hollywood culture, and shunning the fashion industry. BUT, this is America, we like this stuff and it isn't going to happen. Perhaps healthy ideas about ourselves should start in the home. Parents should teach kids about proper diet and exercise, tolerance of others and their differences, and acceptance of ourselves and our own uniqueness.

As a whole our society is getting more unhealthy. We in America are suffering from an epidemic of obesity and heart disease. It's no surprise that the beauty industry is taking off the way it is. We eat more and move less. We want to be able to eat our Big Macs and have a product that will take those pounds off for us. Now I know this isn't true of everyone, but it is a problem.

To me the beauty industry is a reflection of a bigger problem and a really sad one. We are selfish, shallow and gluttonous and I can't even be excluded from this. I buy into it all. I love my $1200 LaMer Creme. Why I need it I'm not sure. None of it really matters. It isn't that important. I'm just as sick as everyone else. I just don't know where it is taking us. I'll stop ranting now.

I have no idea if it's been posted here before, but from the same Dove campaign here's a video that I remember every time I don't feel as pretty as a model. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U

highthief

To be frank, I find your characterization of people who are slim/athletic to be highly objectionable and find this reverse discrimination as childish as anything you describe in the movie theatre.

I do not find it amusing, enlightening, or anything but frustrating to hear that women who happen to have a genetic inclination towards being slim or who actually don't sit around eating crates of Doritos of an evening and take care of themselves are "genetic freaks".

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braisler

Excellent comments so far from the men and women of this forum. I do agree that our societal acceptance of beauty standards are somewhat guided by media presentation. I would also say that, thankfully, these standards are not truly persistant in how we ultimately select our mates. I think that when we are young, mostly mentally young (immature), we tend to be more heavily influenced by the idea of ideal beauty. As we grow up (readily admitting that there are many who never do) I think that our ideas about beauty shift and changed to a broader definition of what we find attractive. Hopefully along with this is a realization that inner beauty, emotional and intellectual compatibility, has a larger role than physical beauty in choosing a life-long mate.

The whole issue of putting physical beauty above all else came up in a recent episode of "Bones". The female protagonist is an anthropologist. A victim they were trying to identify had extensive plastic surgery. She commented that many cultures in their declining years put more and more emphasis on physical beauty as defining the value of an individual. Perhaps this holds true today. Maybe the whole of our culture is declining overall and the exaltation of physical beauty is a part of that.

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Dilbert1234567

well i know a few ladies who do try to get slim but they can't , i lived with one for over a year, she ate healthy, exorcised but could never get down to a slim figure, she is, always has been and always will be kinda fat. granted there are people who say 'I'm genetically fat' between spoonfuls of ice cream. i used to be 100 lb heavier, until i cut out the ice cream and started getting regular exorcise, I'm still fat, but not nearly as fat as i was. i'm 200 lb right now, bit of a gut, but its not the rolls it was.

i don't think lurkette was talking specifically to the people who are several hundred pounds, i think she was talking about the woman who can't get rid of that last little belly fat, that strive and strive for it, but genetically they are predisposed to collect fat there. (i think a little belly is cute, but that's just me) and to the woman who gets upset when they start to show a few crows feet.

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lurkette

Fair enough...my bad. I'm not talking about people who are naturally slim or who athletic. I'm talking about women who are so thin they have probably stopped menstruating. And by "genetic freaks" (an admittedly bad choice of words) I mean that many of the people who are held up as paragons are waaaay on the far end of the bell curve in terms of normal distribution, and whose bone structure, fat retention patterns, etc., are extremely unrealistic, if not impossible, as goals for the rest of the population.

However, I take the point.

Also, I'm aware thatthe standards of "perfection" cut both ways. For every stick-thin runway model there's a curvy Salma Hayek to live up to.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

ngdawg

Perhaps it's a diversion. Yes, there's death and destruction and it's depressing, so let's knock down a celebrity a peg or two and we'll all feel better..
Yet, ironically, our 'guts' most times come from giving birth, a natural process for women. A man's gut excuse? Not quite as legit.
A man I was involved with remarked as a warning, "I look better with clothes on"...I didn't fall for him because of his body...and while he says the same about me, body parts and his appreciation of them work their way into conversations-how could I not be concerned about their deterioration?

As long as there are mirrors, there will be concern or preoccupation with body image. We 'know' what's reality or not within the media(at least most of us do), but that is not going to stop the bombardment.
$1200????????? Why on earth would anyone spend that kind of money for face cream??? You don't need it-you bought into the idea that it was worth that exorbitant amount. Good gracious....what I could do with $1200.....

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

yelizaveta

I am shocked that people would catcall that ad in a theater, I am 18 and there is nothing disgusting or shocking about those women, i hope i look as good as that at their age!
as to the questions posed,
"To what extent do you find your standards of beauty influenced by the media? Like, really, when you think about it honestly?"
It is hard for me to answer this question because i fit well into today's standards of beauty. i am slim(size 0-2), 5'6" and about 110 lbs with 32c cups. I do find myself beautiful, but i don;t think that is because i fit with the standards. I can imagine myself being happy with my body with an entirely different body shape. I think it is more of an inner thing. I look in the mirror and see someone I love. the most important thing is being comfortable in your skin.

For women, do you compare yourself to other women, in the media and in real life?

I don't really compare myself. there's no point! i can admire a beautiful women, and yes, i do see women whose bodies and faces i find beautiful in ads, but i don;t go around thinking, ok, i want X's thighs, Y's abs, and Z's breasts...

Men, do women judge themselves/each other more harshly than men do?
I'm a women, but i realized only recently that men really care a lot less about the way you look compared to a beauty ideal than you and other women do...
What can be done to change the (IMHO dangerous) trend toward unattainable and unrealistic standards of beauty? I realize that some things are evolutionarily hard-wired, but most of our standards are socially constructed. How do we deconstruct them and rebuild them in a positive way?
ban photoshopped bodies in magazines. photoshop should be used in ads only to create special effects such as flying, but not to alter the appearance of the model.
also, madrid fashion week did a good thing in banning models they thought were TOO skinny. that generated so much publicity about the recent trends!

Ourcrazymodern?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

"Cultural" ideals tend to influence only the young. Advertizing does what it has to to "make money".

When I look at my wife and the mother of my children these days, I don't think, "What a hottie!" I wonder how I got so lucky.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Jinn

I do not find obesity attractive. Nor do I think most men.

Because of this fact, you will never see women on television who are obese modeling products designed to make you more attractive. If people can get past that, then it's a big step. Right now I hear people shouting that they never show "fat" women selling products, but that will not change.

Healthy women, however, are an entirely difficult boat. I do believe that models in the media are far below what should be considered healthy, but shooting to the other end of the spectrum for fun isn't going to any better.

I don't think we should actively encourage obesity, or make it so that being obese is an 'okay' look. It's like encouraging someone to commit suicide; you're telling them that it is okay to eat two boxes of cereal for breakfast, three hamburgers for lunch, etc, etc. because they're still pretty. They're not.

We should not be promoting ultra-skinny "genetic freaks," nor should we be promoting obese "genetic freaks." We should be promoting healthy men and women. It really comes down to that.

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Ourcrazymodern?

Healthy women are an entirely difficult boat. They can kick your ass, you know?
I'm not understanding you, JinnKai, -please help me understand why.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Carno

As soon as sex stops selling, then I guess more fat people will be on TV. Until then, I think we're stuck with these hot, young models. Honestly, I'm not particularly interested in seeing fat people on TV. I'm not particularly interested in seeing these disgustingly skinny women on TV either.

I don't know. I find certain women attractive. I find other women to be unattractive. Sometimes the media displays what I find attractive, sometimes it doesn't.

Yes. This is pretty obvious based on personal experience.

ngdawg

Take a look at a show called 'The Agency' on VH1 sometime. Telling stick-thin girls they're 'too fat'....When I was 18, my height (5'8") and weight (113lbs') was 'correct' for modelling; now women(girls, actually) aren't looked at by agents if they're not at least 5'9" and 110lbs, so 'genetic freaks' is not off the mark, really. And if you saw how they looked in real life, you might be surprised-most facial features are oversized, noses prominent, teeth seemingly too big for their faces and sometimes crooked...objectively take apart any of the more well-known models feature by feature and it's very clearly seen how they're 'freaks'-it's how they photograph, how they stand, how they're made up, etc., that makes them the societal opinion of 'beautiful'.
As for 'living up to' anyone's image, bah! Salma's a genetic freak as well, curves or not. It's these 'freaks' that draw us 'plain folk' in, after all.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

yelizaveta

i agree with Jinnkai.
also, obesity should not be encouraged as beauty regardless of what random african tribe considers it to be beautiful(often used as justification for fat=beautiful), because it is unhealthy. our culture is increasingly a "fast-food, sit on the couch and watch tv, and use modern conveniences(like cars) to avoid any exertion" place, and making that seem OK is just BAD. yes, some people have genetic issues with remaining skinny, but that is not the prevailing reason while america is an increasingly obese country!
as jinnkai pointed out, neither extreme should be embraced.

ProfessorMayhem

I particularly enjoyed the "Dove evolution of beauty" spot.

Photo-retouching was one of the first jobs I ever had. I literally spent days turning human beings into mannequins.

Carno

She's a freak just because she happens to be attractive and takes care of her body?

spectre

I have to agree with Carno here. And I think a lot of the recent posts in this thread are exactly what lurkette was talking about. We're getting a lot of people judging themselves harshly, but oddly enough, they're taking it out on others by calling them freaks. There are some that, yes, I can say are freakish because it's to a point where you just know they're beyond not being healthy, but to lump all attractive women in there.

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lurkette

There's a distinct difference between "obesity" (a BMI of 30+) and being heavier/larger/more muscular/less muscular/less curvy than the ideal. My problem is that some people don't make a distinction, and a lot of times "healthy" is...not.

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- Anatole France

Sultana

Well, the "curvy" Salma Hayek is about a size 2, just so you know. Curvy doesn't equal carrying any fat, it just means she has an actual waist, and a good pair of...implants? It is genetically highly unusual to not deposit fat anywhere at all in the body except for the breasts. Yes, some women do have that body type natually, but it's highly unusual.

The camera adds 15+ lbs on to a person...so imagine those tiny women even skinnier than they appear on film! That's why the "lollipop head" label became so popular.

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"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Dilbert1234567

i love curves...

there is a line between curves and folds though.

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Ourcrazymodern?

hmmm. What percentage of fat do our brains contain?
The face seems most important regarding attractiveness. I think it might be the eyes... (and the lips and the nose...)

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

ngdawg

Her attractiveness is, for lack of a better term, freaky-it's uniquely beautiful-you don't have to be told it's Salma, you know it is and I daresay, are not turned off by seeing her appear. One of the 'appeals' of celebrities such as her, Nicole Kidman, etc., is their uniqueness in beauty, hence, freakness-standing out from the crowd due to their unusual good looks. And they have to take care of their bodies, their looks or they will lose that uniqueness and be fodder for the media rags.

First off, you're misunderstanding my statement. Uniqueness=freaky. Attractiveness/beauty is not the same as a circus freak. No one lumped 'all attractive women'; I know I can be attractive when I take the time, but I'm not going to be viewed as exceptional, unusual, etc., because my 'attractiveness' simply is not nearly on the same plane, nor do I have legions of people dressing me, making me up, etc.
People pay attention to the likes of beautiful celebrities because of their ability to stand out. Conversely, people seem to take pleasure in watching these same celebrities fall, ala Kirstie Alley, Britney Spears.
(By the way, the last woman in the ad is, to me, extremely beautiful. Dove is still pushing the 'beauty' aspect of aging)

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Ourcrazymodern?

Long ago, a friend referred to someone having "their own face". I didn't know what he meant then, but I think I might now.
Dove is just merchandising, aren't they?

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flstf

High fashion is still into the tall thin look but from what little I have seen on music stations young people or at least hip hop is into women with big butts, whether it be singers or lyrics.

My wife says the latest style is skinny jeans which only look good on skinny people. She is 5'-7" and weighs 125 and thinks she needs to loose a few pounds before she'll look good in them. I think in her mind it is either Twiggy in a mini skirt or Mama Cass in a mu mu with nothing in between.

yelizaveta

while she is right about the skinny jean thing, if she weighs 125 pounds it would probably be unhealthy (and pointless) to lose those "vanity pounds" !

flat5

..

ngdawg

Yep, that's what it comes down to, really. They're not touting healthy choices, offering up suggestions to maintain a healthy lifestyle, they're skin cream.
Ugh.. I hate 'hearing' that. She's quite thin by those measurements. At 5'8" and 135, I know I could stand to gain about 5 lbs. My friends all think I'm too thin and I see it.
Skinny jeans. Just another stupid fashion standard women think they have to adhere to.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Sultana

I am unequivicably opposed to any garment with the word "skinny" in the title--for me, it just won't work!

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

ARTelevision

Thanks for the thread, lurkette.

To respond to a couple of the questions you ask in your original post...

The media influences our internal "standards of beauty" 100%.

I have no delusions that I am powerful enough to resist the media environment I inhabit. Nor do I think I am in any way free - especially as regards thinking my own thoughts or having feelings that are unmediated by the inestimable power of mass media.

It follows that I do not think there is anything we can do about it.

These discussions are probably the most significant social dialog we can be having.

Not because we have the ability to change anything but because it's important to have these issues in the forefront of our consciousness.

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Ourcrazymodern?

It's possible, if not easy, to ignore the media. I'm still believing that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that individual packaging is all we have.

It's not (Funnyhaha) what we'll do to "make money", is it?

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Jinn

Do not confuse your inability to separate yourself from your media influences with a universal inability to do so. I do not have difficulty if you say that media influences YOUR idea of beauty 100%, but you cannot claim that this is 'our' position.

Furthermore, it is not a delusion to acknowledge that you can seperate yourself from your external influences. I believe the most defining characteristic of a strong individual is their ability to filter external stimuli and determine it's relevance to their internal consciousness.

The power of mass media is certainly strong, but making the argument that we are hapless pawns to the power of the media gives no credit to individuals who are able to exercise their understanding of themselves and a determined sense of self control.

And oops.. I meant "different," not difficult. :-D

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ARTelevision

Thanks for your response.

I'm not arguing anything - just stating observations from my point of view.

I don't have any "beliefs."

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ngdawg

But aren't our choices of what we think is beautiful limited by the choices of media? In other words, if we were shown only women who looked like Cass Elliot and men who resembled Ned Beatty and told that this is the standard of beauty to follow, wouldn't at least some of our ideas be skewed in that direction? Granted, there are many who do think that such are beautiful externally and it's not our duty to inform them otherwise...but...I think you'd see a lot of women trying to gain poundage; Reubenesque was the ideal 100 years ago-not because of some evolutionary thought process, but because that is what was shown to be sensual through art and the media of the day.

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jorgelito

The "standards of beauty" go way beyond just obesity. At least people can control that if they want to. It's much much worse for people of color who cannot reasonably change their appearance to adhere to some arbitrary western notion of beauty. The role the media has to play is the repetitive drilling and brainwashing of an audience and institutionalizing these "standards" of beauty which are then reinforced in daily societal interactions. Once these harmful notions are institutionalized, they become very difficult to eradicate and operate at a subconcious level.


There is however, a distinctionm between institutionalized beauty standards through media investment and blind consumerism. People make their own choices and willingly allow themselves to buy into the media setting the standards. In theory, no one should be unhappy with the way they look. If beauty is relative, then we have choices and can decide for ourselves how we present ourselves. No one is forced to buy make up or ridiculous fashion items.

But in some cases, this may prove to be impossibe. It is a known fact that tall white males make more money, simply based on their appearance.

The media most certainly plays a role as do ourselves.

mixedmedia

The media,as it is and as it was, has always controlled the standards of beauty to varying extents.

Actually, today I don't think the "media" is the progenitor of beauty standards as much as they once were, but once certain trends and/or fads are shown to be in favor by the public they are certainly the peddlers and propagators of them....by hook or by crook.

To me, more troubling than simply the peddling of beauty standards to the public, is how it is inextricably linked to consumerism and the preponderance of manipulated(ie, unreal, deceitful, unattainable) images that are used to keep women buying. And with the emergence of technology that makes it easier and easier to "perfect" still and moving images, I think it is getting way out of hand.

I admire the aesthetics of the Dove campaign, but yes, it is still just a marketing effort to get women to buy Dove products. Not necessarily an altruistic endeavor.

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Jinn

You can't make a statement like that without admitting that you've got a chip on your shoulder towards the media.

The 'media' is loosely a group of media conglomerates with very little agenda beyond making money. The photographers, film makers, reporters, writers, editors and producers are ultimately doing what they do because it is favorable to do so and thus earns money. If they were truly "drilling and brainwashing an audience" and "institutionalizing standards" I doubt that the (albeit mostly ignorant) populace would be so easily deluded. They're able to do what they do because there are people who enjoy knowing what britney shaved yesterday, what's "hot" and what's "not," and what the 30 NEW tips on "how to please your man" are.

If you blame the media (those who produce it) then you've got to equally blame the consumers (those who use it), because they're the ones LETTING themselves be 'drilled,' 'brainwashed,' and 'institutionalized.'

The idea that we're helpless servants of the powerful media is counterproductive to the process of breaking these social norms, because it is only by defiance (and lack of consumption) that the media changes.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel