mental segregation?

[doubleaught]

What an odd world to live in. Take these examples:
BET (Black Entertainment Television)
The Chinese District
Woman's Day
Black History Month
Hispanic Heritage Month

While I have nothing against the goal of something like "Black History Month," doesn't the mere existence of such an event actually serve to segregate? Not singularly so, but the more references a child sees in relation to "hispanics," "chinese," and "jews," instead of "americans," a mental separation is further defined practically before the child is aware of the world and able to make their own judgments.

Look at the reversal of this type of label:
WET (White Entertainment Television)
The Caucasian District
Man's Day
White History Month

Yes, those felt as funny to type as I'm sure they felt to read! Now some of these events and labels are necessary. Just because I'm against a type of labeling does not mean I'm advocating mindless extents of being politically correct, or for the elimination of history and awareness. Fact is we've had a lot of amazingly bigoted people around since the beginning of time, and without education of our past I do believe we're bound to make the same mistakes again, given time.

Which brings me to what I'm really against. No, I don't want to get rid of Hispanic Heritage Month or Black History Month. I'm sick to death of minorities of any type embracing or even capitalizing on any part of themselves with no other goal in mind. Such as homosexual comics where the majority of their act is based on them being homosexual. Or hispanic comics (Carlos Mencia anyone?) who cannot beg/borrow or steal content which does not constantly bring up the idea that he's hispanic (oddly enough, he's not actually hispanic, he just likes to make racial "funnies"). The mere presence of BET widens the difference betweens races, and unlike Black History Month has no benefit.

"The Chinese District"??? What are we doing here? What's the goal of that? I can no more imagine going into say, Italy, and making an "American District" than I can making or keeping a Chinese district here. It's not like I'm some unreasonable and heartless prick. If I were in a foreign country after a couple weeks perhaps I would like some traditionally prepared American food - nothing wrong with that. Having a variety of foods labeled as coming from different parts of the world is just fine. A person who has setup shop providing a service people pay for (such as cooking their countries' traditional foods or offering other unique services) only enhances this country - if they're speaking or trying to learn english, paying taxes, and generally trying to fit in without losing their identities, they should be proud. They're Americans.

If I go into a country and setup an American District, or if I'm gay or lesbian and constantly make fun of this fact, my actions only serve to further my distinction as a minority. I'm only forcing myself into a stereotype the ever-present bigots can abuse. This type of action typically has negative connotations.

I'm posting this for two primary reasons. One is I've had this subject in my mind for a while and wanted to write it down. Another is I've posted a variation of this (I completely rewrote for TFP) in another community and people there seemed to think I was crazy. I don't think I'm crazy (heh), although this is an extremely rough topic to convey without coming across as extremist or out-of-touch with reality. I guess the third would be, I'm hoping for some general awareness of this issue - there's always gonna be crazy people doing crazy things, but I don't think this is crazy. The proliferation of a less-segregated community can only be positive, in my mind.

[mirevolver]

I have always wondered what would happen if in filling out forms (i.e. government, education etc...) everyone checked off either "other" or "prefer not to say" when the form asks about race.

[flat5]

..

[politicophile]

two characters

[jorgelito]

Actually, those organizations, groupings you listed were started to INCLUDE certain disenfranchised groups. There is no WET because arguably, WET is ABC, NBC, CBS etc. There is no White History because everyday is White History and classes taught in our schools focus on "White History - RE: Western Civilization. As far as "districts", those groups you mentioned did not have a choice. They were forced to live in certain areas. In fact, you can still see old covenants on title deeds restricting Jews to live in certain areas. "Chinese districts" exist because historically, they were not allowed to live anywhere else. Over time, this became tradition. Also, when minorities started being allowed to integrate more, it was/is the whites that leave an area, leaving it a "minority district".

I would argue that many of these groups ARE proud Americans (with the exception of one group), but it is America that does not love them back. Many served in our wars as Americans but were denied veteran's benefits. Many of these groups try very hard to participate in Americana but are denied simply because they are different.

It's a work in progress, I am optimistic.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Originally Posted by politicophile

I personally agree with you: continued racism can exist only so long as meaningful distinctions between races continue to exist. That said, I imagine a defender of those sorts of practices would say that they exist for the purpose of disclosing the past and continued existence of discrimination in this country and that they merely point out already-existent group distinctions, rather than creating new ones. This is, I think, to underestimate the isolative (I think I made that word up) effects of such group differentiations. BET, for example, supports the notion that blacks are so different from the mainstream that they literally have different entertainment needs. That, my friend, is the road to stereotyping.

That is a common misunderstanding. BET does not exist to differentiate blacks from the mainstream, but rather, to introduce an element of our society that is missing in the mainstream culture, media etc.

I personally believe that these are stepping stones and will eventually not need it. But for now, we obviously do. I believe, that the mainstream has responded in kind and diversity has slowly, of so very slowly, begun to adapt and respond accordingly.

The new cast of Heroes is a good example - a much more accurate depiction of America. Scrubs has a good cast as well.

The OC is a horrible example - The OC is not all white but if you watched that show, that's what one would think.

CW is good at diversity programming too.

Etc. etc.

[politicophile]

two characters

[jorgelito]

You can lead a horse to water.....

The fact of the matter is SOMEONE is watching BET and that is all that should matter. In other words, it serves a market segment. If the mainstream firms/producers are not serving a market, then another firm will rise to meet that demand. I see nothing wrong with that. It makes perfect sense to me.

If you are not interested or don't like it, then you don't have to watch it. But someone does so who are we to say what they can and cannot watch? I like that we have choices, I like that we have "diversity". For me, that is what this non-hyphenated American believes makes America great.

However, I do wince at the whole hyphenated American phenomenon.

I disagree with the OP though.

[Willravel]

I wish BET didn't suck. I wish there was a channel that ran old speeches and interviews with Dr. MLK Jr. and Malcolm X. Maybe they have live poetry readings by black poets and feature unplugged music by black musicians (instead of demeaning, simplistic, despicable rap — they don't even feature really good rap). They discuss the effects of society of black Americans and visa versa in an environment of intelligence and awareness.

Right now, a great deal of the station promotes the idea of the gangster lifestyle: scamming, pimping, prostitution, gang banging, abuse against women, disrespect of women, assault, murder, etc. Black America doesn't have to be these things. Actually, most of black America isn't these things. BET is to black people what Queer Eye for the Straight Guy is for homosexuals, and it makes me sick. It's a stereotyping and has a negative effect not only on the image of black people by non-blacks, but actually can serve to effect black people's view of themselves (that information from many conversations I've had with my black friends. I don't pretend to know what it's like to be black. I'm white.)

[filtherton]

It's like the old chicken and egg question.

Which came first, racially differentiated marketing or the marketability of racial differentiation?

I think the issue is much more complex than what is laid forth in the OP.

I think that one can advocate equality when it comes to fundamental things, like civil rights, racial profiling, basic human decency, etc., without necessarily needing to advocate homogeneity in terms of individual cultural expression. It is bad to treat people differently because of their race. It isn't necessarily bad to draw lines between different cultures and/or celebrate differences between cultures.

Blackness is a race, but it is also a culture. Though the distinction might be rather murky at times, it is still important.

BET exists because there is a market for it; prior to BET there were people who want to watch the kinds of things on BET who couldn't because there was no BET. No doubt that there are some people for whom BET provides a sense of cultural identity. So what? In my mind that's no worse that people deriving a sense of cultural identity from desperate housewives. It isn't something i'd personally strive towards, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

[doubleaught]

Originally Posted by jorgelito

If you are not interested or don't like it, then you don't have to watch it. But someone does so who are we to say what they can and cannot watch? I like that we have choices, I like that we have "diversity". For me, that is what this non-hyphenated American believes makes America great.

While unstated in the OP one of the facts is so many people do choose to be entertained by this type of material. It's almost unsettling. I say almost because I have to wonder if the audience would be there regardless, you seem to be saying they're choosing this material... I say people aren't that picky. They say to themselves "I want to be entertained" and then as long as they're laughing, they don't care much about the content.

Let me put it this way: I don't think there would be a public outcry if comedians phased out racial or other minority-based humor, nor if BET dropped the B from it's name and went on with life.

I strongly disagree that leaving people to their bigotry-enhancing ways for "diversity" is what makes America great.

[Cynthetiq]

IMO anything that distinguishes the differences of people promotes racism, direct or reverse. I have always hated this double standard but I've got better things to do than worry about the "What about White Entertainment Television?" question anymore... 10 years is enough time playing that game.

[doubleaught]

Originally Posted by jorgelito

As far as "districts", those groups you mentioned did not have a choice. They were forced to live in certain areas. In fact, you can still see old covenants on title deeds restricting Jews to live in certain areas. "Chinese districts" exist because historically, they were not allowed to live anywhere else. Over time, this became tradition. Also, when minorities started being allowed to integrate more, it was/is the whites that leave an area, leaving it a "minority district".

Very good point. Stinks that things came about this way, undoing this kind of past folly is so astronomically harder than preventing it in the first place. :/

Originally Posted by jorgelito

That is a common misunderstanding. BET does not exist to differentiate blacks from the mainstream, but rather, to introduce an element of our society that is missing in the mainstream culture, media etc.

I personally believe that these are stepping stones and will eventually not need it. But for now, we obviously do. I believe, that the mainstream has responded in kind and diversity has slowly, of so very slowly, begun to adapt and respond accordingly.

Interesting! Based on this info I agree with their mission but disagree with their methodology. By all means, fill in the gap and make some money from doing so - but don't use labels if at all possible. If the goal is catering to a community to help them integrate into a healthy mainstream, remove every segregationist reference (again, that's realistically possible) and do it. If the material is truly good and fulfilling the need, the marketshare and thus money will be there - without playing the race card. win-win imo.

[mixedmedia]

So is the problem the fact that there is a BET or the fact that you can't have a WET?

I don't have a problem with BET or Little Saigon (our local Vietnamese District) or Hispanic History Month. Funny, it doesn't make me feel estranged or "different" from the people in these groups in my community. I think it might be more prudent and practical if those who do feel estranged from American ethnic groups to work out their own shit, rather than expecting everyone else to deny their ethnicity and the expressions of it in our society.

[filtherton]

It seems a bit ironic to me that whenever this issue pops up no one ever mentions the cultural institutions or holidays that involve nonminority cultures, like st. patricks's day or octoberfest.

It seems like a natural extension of the OP would be to suggest that the celebration of hannukah perpetuates anti-semitism because it highlights differences between the minority jewish culture and the majority christian culture in america.

I guess i would like ask mr. doublenaught which sorts of cultural differentiation are acceptable and which aren't and why.

[mixedmedia]

I have to say I find it almost laughable that someone's answer to the problem of racism is for non-white people to stop being so goddamned different from white people. Actually, now that I'm actually writing it, it is laughable.

I'm going to bed now.

[ngdawg]

The origination of BET was to bring quality, original television to a large portion of society that was, in their eyes, grossly under represented. However, there wasn't the big money nor big interest and, perhaps ironically enough, American entertainment was and is embracing the talents of so many black actors as 'mainstream', BET is now just an afterthought relegated to reruns of minor sitcoms and a few comedy shows.
Because of things like 'Black History Month', et al, this scenario of unnecssary 'segregations' of cultural groups via forms of entertainment, news, etc., becomes more commonplace. Is there still the 'Miss Black America' competition? No, because we've had black Miss Americas. Sometimes boosting something to the forefront singularly is necessary to incorporate it into an otherwise exclusive majority. Hope that made sense.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

The origination of BET was to bring quality, original television to a large portion of society that was, in their eyes, grossly under represented. However, there wasn't the big money nor big interest and, perhaps ironically enough, American entertainment was and is embracing the talents of so many black actors as 'mainstream', BET is now just an afterthought relegated to reruns of minor sitcoms and a few comedy shows.
Because of things like 'Black History Month', et al, this scenario of unnecssary 'segregations' of cultural groups via forms of entertainment, news, etc., becomes more commonplace. Is there still the 'Miss Black America' competition? No, because we've had black Miss Americas. Sometimes boosting something to the forefront singularly is necessary to incorporate it into an otherwise exclusive majority. Hope that made sense.

IMO, the whole Latin Grammys and such is just the absurdity of absurdity, like they cannot compete in the regular Grammys. But see for things like that it has nothing to do with diluting the award into segments of segregation, but there is something to make advertisers capture those segments.

[jorgelito]

Originally Posted by filtherton

It's like the old chicken and egg question.

Which came first, racially differentiated marketing or the marketability of racial differentiation?

I think the issue is much more complex than what is laid forth in the OP.

I think that one can advocate equality when it comes to fundamental things, like civil rights, racial profiling, basic human decency, etc., without necessarily needing to advocate homogeneity in terms of individual cultural expression. It is bad to treat people differently because of their race. It isn't necessarily bad to draw lines between different cultures and/or celebrate differences between cultures.

Blackness is a race, but it is also a culture. Though the distinction might be rather murky at times, it is still important.

BET exists because there is a market for it; prior to BET there were people who want to watch the kinds of things on BET who couldn't because there was no BET. No doubt that there are some people for whom BET provides a sense of cultural identity. So what? In my mind that's no worse that people deriving a sense of cultural identity from desperate housewives. It isn't something i'd personally strive towards, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Interesting post Filtherton, some good insights. I would like to explore the blackness as race thing a little further. I don't think BET flat out advocates homogeneity but rather, adds more "flavor" to the previous homogeneous mix.

Furthermore, blackness as race is going by the wayside in my opinion. It simply is an inaccurate label. People are so obsessed with race that it is almost a religion. I am more culturally black than many of my friends and just a shade or two lighter. What does this mean? Only that I have certain interests shared with other people and that my skin tone (phenotype) is in between black and white.

[doubleaught]

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

So is the problem the fact that there is a BET or the fact that you can't have a WET?

Honestly, it's enough to explain you should just read the post again. Pretty clear you didn't grok it first time around.

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I don't have a problem with BET or Little Saigon (our local Vietnamese District) or Hispanic History Month. Funny, it doesn't make me feel estranged or "different" from the people in these groups in my community. I think it might be more prudent and practical if those who do feel estranged from American ethnic groups to work out their own shit, rather than expecting everyone else to deny their ethnicity and the expressions of it in our society.

No one's asking or promoting a denial of differences. I'm promoting the idea the advancement of segregation for no real benefit is harmful to society, helping to keep us away from damaging stereotypes and bigots.

Your post feels like you just wanted to start shit rather than have a discussion, kind of surprising you're a moderator. /shrug. Perhaps I just needed to be clearer, though it's tough with this sensitive of a subject.

[jorgelito]

Originally Posted by doubleaught

Very good point. Stinks that things came about this way, undoing this kind of past folly is so astronomically harder than preventing it in the first place. :/


Interesting! Based on this info I agree with their mission but disagree with their methodology. By all means, fill in the gap and make some money from doing so - but don't use labels if at all possible. If the goal is catering to a community to help them integrate into a healthy mainstream, remove every segregationist reference (again, that's realistically possible) and do it. If the material is truly good and fulfilling the need, the marketshare and thus money will be there - without playing the race card. win-win imo.

I don't think of it as they are playing the race card. Sometimes the "labeling" is simply accurate descriptions. Would you (not you you but the collective you) be uspet at Sex and the City cause the name is so divisive sexually and genderwise? Or Seinfeld is blatantly Jewish!!! How divisive, how dare they label!! Desperate Housewives, more divisiveness and labeling. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Originally Posted by willravel

I wish BET didn't suck. I wish there was a channel that ran old speeches and interviews with Dr. MLK Jr. and Malcolm X. Maybe they have live poetry readings by black poets and feature unplugged music by black musicians (instead of demeaning, simplistic, despicable rap — they don't even feature really good rap). They discuss the effects of society of black Americans and visa versa in an environment of intelligence and awareness.

Right now, a great deal of the station promotes the idea of the gangster lifestyle: scamming, pimping, prostitution, gang banging, abuse against women, disrespect of women, assault, murder, etc. Black America doesn't have to be these things. Actually, most of black America isn't these things. BET is to black people what Queer Eye for the Straight Guy is for homosexuals, and it makes me sick. It's a stereotyping and has a negative effect not only on the image of black people by non-blacks, but actually can serve to effect black people's view of themselves (that information from many conversations I've had with my black friends. I don't pretend to know what it's like to be black. I'm white.)

That is entirely subjective. Apparently many people LOVE BET and find it entertaining and of value, otherwise it would cease to exist. There is a channel that runs old speeches of Malcolm X and Dr. King - it's called the History Channel and PBS. Def Jam Poetry Slam DOES promote poetry readings and unplugged music - it's sort of a neo-Harlem Renaissance movement. And better yet, the featured artists are diverse. One of the best poets is Beau Sia (google him, he is amazing).

Rap is good, some of it is bad. Do not lump all of rap music as a negative. THAT is stereotyping.

So if you (not you you but the collective you) take issue with stereotyping on BET, why not take issue with the blatant stereotyping on "WET" (NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX etc.etc.etc.)?

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

IMO anything that distinguishes the differences of people promotes racism, direct or reverse. I have always hated this double standard but I've got better things to do than worry about the "What about White Entertainment Television?" question anymore... 10 years is enough time playing that game.

Could you please elaborate on the "double standard"? I am interested in hearing what you have to say.

[doubleaught]

Originally Posted by filtherton

It seems a bit ironic to me that whenever this issue pops up no one ever mentions the cultural institutions or holidays that involve nonminority cultures, like st. patricks's day or octoberfest.

Why would these be brought up? Afaik these celebrations are Irish and German in descent, I don't see white people being discriminated against in the same fashion as we're speaking of. The celebrations don't highlight the difference between people, nevermind doing it for no good reason.

Originally Posted by filtherton

It seems like a natural extension of the OP would be to suggest that the celebration of hannukah perpetuates anti-semitism because it highlights differences between the minority jewish culture and the majority christian culture in america.

I guess i would like ask mr. doublenaught which sorts of cultural differentiation are acceptable and which aren't and why.

Oh! Wow, a very clever change of my name. I'm simply taken aback by your wit. I'll go ahead and take a breath and try to match your wit: L2read. Respond intelligently and I'll do likewise, if you'd like to flame you better be prepared. You know... by reading and understanding the material... perhaps *GASP* asking questions before firing away. Just a thought!

[jorgelito]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

The origination of BET was to bring quality, original television to a large portion of society that was, in their eyes, grossly under represented. However, there wasn't the big money nor big interest and, perhaps ironically enough, American entertainment was and is embracing the talents of so many black actors as 'mainstream', BET is now just an afterthought relegated to reruns of minor sitcoms and a few comedy shows.
Because of things like 'Black History Month', et al, this scenario of unnecssary 'segregations' of cultural groups via forms of entertainment, news, etc., becomes more commonplace. Is there still the 'Miss Black America' competition? No, because we've had black Miss Americas. Sometimes boosting something to the forefront singularly is necessary to incorporate it into an otherwise exclusive majority. Hope that made sense.

It makes great sense actually. In other words, some things were developed to fill a need or void, and once that was fulfilled, then the old thing gives way to the newly integrated whole. (in many ways, I believe the original INTENT of affirmative action was the same, to be temporary transitional tool but it failed miserably)

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

IMO, the whole Latin Grammys and such is just the absurdity of absurdity, like they cannot compete in the regular Grammys. But see for things like that it has nothing to do with diluting the award into segments of segregation, but there is something to make advertisers capture those segments.

I agree with you about the Latin Grammy's, but then, I thought, is it because there isn't a Latin category in the Grammy's so they created their own to fill the void?

[doubleaught]

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I have to say I find it almost laughable that someone's answer to the problem of racism is for non-white people to stop being so goddamned different from white people. Actually, now that I'm actually writing it, it is laughable.

I'm going to bed now.

Actually, in the future I would recommend reading/thinking about replies when you type them out, especially when you're tired right before bed.

The point is NOT to be less "different from white people." It's to be more American, or the idea could be extrapolated to any minority within a society. America is a melting pot so asking people to drop their heritage is the last thing I'm advocating.

Yes this is kind of a tough concept to grasp, that a person could keep their culture yet ditch the actions which only serve to further their distinction as a minority. Oh, well actually now that I write it, it's kind of laughable that you wouldn't get it considering it's right in the OP. Live and learn, I guess?

Have a good cup of coffee before you respond? Please? I really would rather keep this a normal discussion but I have a rather significant flaw as a person, that I can't let bs stand. Ask a question if you have a question, but moving to flaming will only get you the same in return.

Originally Posted by filtherton

I think the issue is much more complex than what is laid forth in the OP.

I think that one can advocate equality when it comes to fundamental things, like civil rights, racial profiling, basic human decency, etc., without necessarily needing to advocate homogeneity in terms of individual cultural expression. It is bad to treat people differently because of their race. It isn't necessarily bad to draw lines between different cultures and/or celebrate differences between cultures.

I never claimed to have fully explained every last nuance possible in the subject; quite the reverse really. The paragraph above is another way of saying the exact same thing.

Originally Posted by filtherton

Blackness is a race, but it is also a culture. Though the distinction might be rather murky at times, it is still important.

BET exists because there is a market for it; prior to BET there were people who want to watch the kinds of things on BET who couldn't because there was no BET. No doubt that there are some people for whom BET provides a sense of cultural identity. So what? In my mind that's no worse that people deriving a sense of cultural identity from desperate housewives. It isn't something i'd personally strive towards, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Interesting thought. I would argue defining a culture entirely based on the color of one's skin is a step in the wrong direction. Not even close to 100% of black people behave or subscribe to the stereotypical "black" lifestyle (whatever the hell that is, heh). Therefore pushing forward the idea these people are so different from your average American (not just whites!) is exactly the kind of thinking something like BET promotes.

Why can't BET drop the B and still be successful? It could still have the exact same material and fill the exact same need without pushing the idea "blacks are different." No, they're American and have a heritage or a set of ideals (depending on religion) to stand up for. There is no use in pushing the "black" part, just let them by what they're gonna be.

Originally Posted by jorgelito

I don't think of it as they are playing the race card. Sometimes the "labeling" is simply accurate descriptions. Would you (not you you but the collective you) be uspet at Sex and the City cause the name is so divisive sexually and genderwise? Or Seinfeld is blatantly Jewish!!! How divisive, how dare they label!! Desperate Housewives, more divisiveness and labeling. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Yes this is a good point, perhaps I could have been clearer about it. Sometimes a label is a label and we cannot escape that. If you don't call a Jewish person Jewish (or a Jew, sans negative connotations), what the hell you gonna call them? It's necessary and has no negative repercussions in and of itself.

This is definitely not a push for homogenization (is that a word?) or being PC, whatsoever. The change is a very subtle one and wouldn't change anything overnight. It's simply life as-is, minus the phrases and terms and labels which serve only negative purposes.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by jorgelito

That is entirely subjective. Apparently many people LOVE BET and find it entertaining and of value, otherwise it would cease to exist. There is a channel that runs old speeches of Malcolm X and Dr. King - it's called the History Channel and PBS. Def Jam Poetry Slam DOES promote poetry readings and unplugged music - it's sort of a neo-Harlem Renaissance movement. And better yet, the featured artists are diverse. One of the best poets is Beau Sia (google him, he is amazing).

Rap is good, some of it is bad. Do not lump all of rap music as a negative. THAT is stereotyping.

I didn't lump all rap as a negative:

Originally Posted by Willravel, the Thinker

(instead of demeaning, simplistic, despicable rap — they don't even feature really good rap)

Originally Posted by jorgelito

So if you (not you you but the collective you) take issue with stereotyping on BET, why not take issue with the blatant stereotyping on "WET" (NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX etc.etc.etc.)?

I take issue with the stereotyping on BET of black people of being gangsters and such. I don't care if you have a television station of all Persians or Native Americans. It's when the stations reinforce a negative stereotype and do actual damage to the race that I take issue. It's bullshit, and BET should be destroyed or replaced.

Viacom cut back BET's public affairs department back in 2001. That led to Smiley being let go and the shows Teen Sumit and Lead Story being canceled. Notice how 106 and Park survived? Yeah, it plays the videos with big booties and rap featuring the common themes:

1) I'm richer than you, but my life is difficult driving my fleet of Bentleys (lifestyle)
2) I'm going to kill you, right after I possibly rob you (gangsta)
3) Your sister's a bitch, all women are bitches and hoes (disrespect of women)
4) I'm going to beat up a gay guy (homophobia)

It's not art. It's Twinkies and breast implants; fake, marketed garbage.

[Infinite_Loser]

...I wonder how many 'minorities' have posted in this thread so far.

[jorgelito]

Well, you just may get your wish. It doesn't really sound like they can hang around too much longer. And as long as you (and/or I or whomever) don't watch it and condone it, then we continuously send a message of what we want and don't want to consume for media/entertainment.

The remote control (and now TiVO and the like) are powerful tools for consumers.

I totally agree with you about stereotypes of ANY TYPE are despicable and deplorable (Arab terrorists, Latino criminals, Asian nerds etc) and would even go as far as to say positive stereotypes are bad as well.

I say let BET and the like fall on their own, for if they do insist on keeping that up, then they will (I'm assuming).

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

...I wonder how many 'minorities' have posted in this thread so far.

You know, I always wonder about that when these types of threads come up. Although I am curious, sometimes it's a good thing if we simply don't know that info. That way we can just let our words speak for themselves.

Oh yeah, and Will (and anyone else who's interested), please do check out Def Jam Poetry Slam, I think you'd like it.

Edit:

Here, we can now add Confederate Month to the list of examples of "mental segregation". I mean, they lost the war right? Someone tell them to "get over it" and assimilate as Americans already...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070315/...federate_month

Ga. Senate panel OKs Confederate month

By DOUG GROSS, Associated Press WriterThu Mar 15, 5:51 PM ET

A panel of Georgia lawmakers signed off Thursday on a plan to create a Confederate heritage month, even as legislative leaders reacted coolly to a push to apologize for the state's role in slavery.

Sen. Jeff Mullis' bill would dub April as Confederate History and Heritage Month to honor the memory of the Confederacy and "all those millions of its citizens of various races and ethnic groups and religions who contributed in sundry and myriad ways to the cause of Southern Independence."

The unanimous vote by the Senate Rules committee — which sent the plan on to the full Senate for consideration — comes days after black lawmakers announced plans to ask the state to officially apologize for its role in slavery and segregation-era laws.

Virginia's legislature last month passed a resolution expressing "profound regret" for the state's role in slavery, and lawmakers in Missouri and Congress have proposed similar measures.

Democratic Rep. Tyrone Brooks, chairman of the Georgia Association of Black Elected Officials, said it's discouraging to see the Confederate month proposal moving ahead after leaders of the Republican-controlled House and Senate said they're not in favor of apologizing for slavery.

"Georgia needs to recognize and apologize and atone for its part in the slave trade, as Virginia has done," Brooks said. "Until we do, I think there will continue to be resistance from African-Americans and others who are serving in the General Assembly" to efforts like Confederate month.

Mullis, a Republican, said his bill was not a response to the slavery-apology movement.

"I'm from Chickamauga, so it seemed pretty appropriate for me to do something to commemorate the War Between the States," Mullis said. His family owned land at the site of the Battle of Chickamauga, the Civil War's second-bloodiest battle and the South's last major victory.

Mullis has supported efforts to create a Civil Rights History Month in Georgia but opposes a slavery apology. "If I had done something personally, yes, I would apologize," he said.

The state's branch of the NAACP called the push for a Confederate month hypocritical.

"Although the supporters of the Confederate history bill feel responsible to honor the past deeds of their ancestors through official governmental action, they resist all notions that they have any responsibility to apologize to their ancestors' victims through official governmental action," said Edward Dubose, president of the group's Georgia chapter. "That reeks of hypocrisy."

Brooks, who said black lawmakers plan to officially introduce their slavery legislation next week, said he hopes Mullis' bill at least will encourage discussion. He said he's not necessarily against the idea of a Confederate month — as long as similar recognition is given to the state's black history.

"All of Georgia's history should be promoted and respected and highlighted," he said. "Hopefully this will lead us into some meaningful dialogue."

[mixedmedia]

Sorry babe, but I fail to see the validity of your point. God forbid I use a little humor to make mine. My intention was not to "flame."

Of course, I read your OP and I interjected my opinion on it. I don't see a problem with Americans being ethnically distinct and having their own television networks, their own communities and even their own awards shows (if they must). I fail to see how they "advance segregation" are "of no benefit" and are "harmful to society." Let me ask you this, did we have less racism before there was a BET and a Latin Music Awards? I was an adult then. I can comment on that.

The problem is not that ethnic groups need to work on being less distinct (ie, more tolerable?). It's that racists need to work on being more tolerant. That is my point as I believe was made pretty obvious in my posts regardless of their perceived tone. With all due respect, do you have anything to say to that?

*edit* And let me add just one more thing. I apologize if you took offense at my comments. I don't say this as a moderator, but as a person who is aware that she can be somewhat caustic when it comes to race issues. But I only do so because of the observation that we are slipping when it comes to the "national ethic" towards racial tolerance that we adopted following the civil rights movement. Especially among young people who don't seem to understand why we have BET and a black history month. And I don't believe it is because of ethnic groups celebrating their ethnicity. It's that time goes by and people forget.

[Infinite_Loser]

Slightly off-topic, but I miss the show 'Black and White'.

[The_Jazz]

{sigh}

Please keep personal attacks out of this thread. Debate the issue, not the person. This thread is quickly turning into a mess.

[Crack]

Originally Posted by Martin Luther King jr.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

He would not approve.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by Crack

I have a dream today. He would not approve.

Jorge, this is exactly why I feel the double standard.

When going to college in the late 80s. I didn't qualify for financial aid or scholarships as my parents made too much money. I'm of Filipino decent and did not play the minority card. Yet, a black person in my high school with the same GPA (no sports for either of us) as me was getting offers everywhere for financial and acceptance to schools because he was black.

Now, IMO it has come full circle where I understand in California the UC and CS systems both have cultural graduations, so if you don't want to go to the normal ceremony that has a rich tradition, you can go to the Filipino/Black/Chinese/Spanish ones.

Again in California I went to DMV to pick up the book so that I can learn and take the written exam. I asked for a book and was immediately handed one in Tagalog (Filipino language). I did not ask for it in the "mother tongue" I did not distinguish to the person that I was Filipino at all.

I get junk mail in Spanish based on my last name. Is my last name really a Spanish name? Yes, it is but it's not a common last name that people have historically ever thought was Spanish.

Latin Grammys where created soley based on demographics and the ability to market directly to a market segment. They don't have a black artist category unless you decide that R&B is that segment, but to my point they didn't decide to create a Black Grammys to cater to that market segment.

The generations before us were proud to have their heritage, but they were even more proud to be an American before their own heritage. I think that is where the difference is now. People want to show their difference and individuality instead of celebrating their common connection of being American, or at least even human.

[mixedmedia]

I don't understand how a group of people honoring the accomplishments of individuals in their ethnic group translates into their not wanting to be identified as Americans or humans.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I don't understand how a group of people honoring the accomplishments of individuals in their ethnic group translates into their not wanting to be identified as Americans or humans.

I'm not making the translation, but it's apparent to me here in NYC to see via Puerto Rican Pride, Dominican Pride parades. It is a vastly different attitude that St. Patrick's Day (obviously Irish) and Columbus Day parades. I dunno maybe it's because they are decades older?

Now to truly address your statement head on, if that's the case, then why seperate themselves from the Grammys themselves? Why not have a Latin music category, best Latin male vocalist, etc? Why not? Because it's about purchasing power, marketing and demographics.

So by your same thought then honoring the graduates in their own cultural ceremony makes sense too right? What about the burden of costs for assembly, chairs, speakers, AV equipment for the multiple and different ceremonies? Since it is for a select few is the cost burden distributed and divided among them? Probably not, but more than likely divided among the WHOLE student body.

[filtherton]

Originally Posted by doubleaught

Why would these be brought up? Afaik these celebrations are Irish and German in descent, I don't see white people being discriminated against in the same fashion as we're speaking of. The celebrations don't highlight the difference between people, nevermind doing it for no good reason.

Wait, so BET discriminates against whites? Chinatown discriminates against whites? I thought this whole thing was about organizations whose names highlight superficial differences between people. I don't know if you've ever been to an octoberfest celebration, neither have i. From what i can tell it's a celebration of german culture. How is BET different?

Oh! Wow, a very clever change of my name. I'm silmply taken aback by your wit. I'll go ahead and take a breath and try to match your wit: L2read. Respond intelligently and I'll do likewise, if you'd like to flame you better be prepared. You know... by reading and understanding the material... perhaps *GASP* asking questions before firing away. Just a thought!

Calm down, shoulderchips. It was an honest mistake; i'm sorry if i trampled on your delicate sensibilities.

Interesting thought. I would argue defining a culture entirely based on the color of one's skin is a step in the wrong direction. Not even close to 100% of black people behave or subscribe to the stereotypical "black" lifestyle (whatever the hell that is, heh). Therefore pushing forward the idea these people are so different from your average American (not just whites!) is exactly the kind of thinking something like BET promotes.

I would argue that it doesn't matter whether it is progressive or not. It is what it is, and will continue to be so until it isn't. I also don't think that it necessarily pushes the idea that black people are different from average americans, though i see how one could get that impression. You seem to be advocating the position that any sort of superficial recognition of cultural differences amounts to an opting out of american culture. This ignores the fact that america is not a culturally homogenous place.

Why can't BET drop the B and still be successful? It could still the exact same material and fill the exact same need without pushing the idea "blacks are different." No, they're American and have a heritage or a set of ideals (depending on religion) to stand up for. There is no use in pushing the "black" part, just let them by what they're gonna be.

I imagine that they could drop the B and still be successful. I don't think it would change people's tv viewing habits much since ET probably wouldn't change their programming. As far as many people would be concerned, BET without the B would still be the channel with all the black people on it doing black people stuff (remember UPN?), and as far as i could tell in this thought experiment, it wouldn't change much of anything meaningful about BET in terms of its cultural ramifications.

Dropping the B wouldn't amount to anything meaningful, since the claim that black culture is different from mainstream american culture isn't spurious. If all minorities suddenly stopped publicly mentioning the fact that their cultures are different from american popular culture it wouldn't change the fact that their cultures are different from american popular culture. Furthermore, highlighting the fact that your particular culture is different from american pop culture does in now way imply that you yourself aren't an average american.

[mixedmedia]

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

I'm not making the translation, but it's apparent to me here in NYC to see via Puerto Rican Pride, Dominican Pride parades. It is a vastly different attitude that St. Patrick's Day (obviously Irish) and Columbus Day parades. I dunno maybe it's because they are decades older?

Now to truly address your statement head on, if that's the case, then why seperate themselves from the Grammys themselves? Why not have a Latin music category, best Latin male vocalist, etc? Why not? Because it's about purchasing power, marketing and demographics.

So by your same thought then honoring the graduates in their own cultural ceremony makes sense too right? What about the burden of costs for assembly, chairs, speakers, AV equipment for the multiple and different ceremonies? Since it is for a select few is the cost burden distributed and divided among them? Probably not, but more than likely divided among the WHOLE student body.

I'm not sure what you mean by "attitudes" in your first paragraph, but is it perhaps that those parades are more ethnically exclusionary than the St. Patrick's and Columbus Day parades?

Well, I think I understand your point in your second paragraph and I tend to think that the "exploitation" of ethnic differences by music companies, television networks, etc. for monetary gain is another subject completely. For example, your average Hispanic citizen doesn't have a lot of control over that other than their interest in watching or listening. Is there something inherently wrong with that? What is different about that than, say, the Country Music Awards show? It is targeting a demographic, as well. Of course, the word "white" isn't used in the title but, Charlie Pride notwithstanding, I think we all understand that 99.99999% of country singers are white and the awards show is targeted to white people who enjoy listening to country music.

As for the final paragraph, I understand this may be a problem for some people, but if I were in college and knew that a tiny percentage of my money was going to fund ethnically targeted graduation ceremonies, I could care less. eh, shrug, whatever, I understand that not everyone feels this way, though.

And lastly, what does any of this have to do with racism or pride in being an American?

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I'm not sure what you mean by "attitudes" in your first paragraph, but is it perhaps that those parades are more ethnically exclusionary than the St. Patrick's and Columbus Day parades?

Well, I think I understand your point in your second paragraph and I tend to think that the "exploitation" of ethnic differences by music companies, television networks, etc. for monetary gain is another subject completely. For example, your average Hispanic citizen doesn't have a lot of control over that other than their interest in watching or listening. Is there something inherently wrong with that? What is different about that than, say, the Country Music Awards show? It is targeting a demographic, as well. Of course, the word "white" isn't used in the title but, Charlie Pride notwithstanding, I think we all understand that 99.99999% of country singers are white and the awards show is targeted to white people who enjoy listening to country music.

As for the final paragraph, I understand this may be a problem for some people, but if I were in college and knew that a tiny percentage of my money was going to fund ethnically targeted graduation ceremonies, I could care less. eh, shrug, whatever, I understand that not everyone feels this way, though.

And lastly, what does any of this have to do with racism or pride in being an American?

Your country music awards show in and of itself is a farce, MTV Networks makes up awards shows just to sell adspace. VH1 is a good example of the machine at work, VH1 Honors morphing into VH1Divas, VH1 Hip Hop Awards, and then most recently VH1 Rock Honors. It is just to sell adverstising dollars. Putting it back into the Grammys there isn't a Country Grammys, but a section for Country singers, male, female, group.

The division of Latin Grammys is highlighting Latin, not celebrating the commonality of music. Again, it parallels in my mind the same things of the American aspect, again pointing out the differences instead of celebrating in the commonality. It is just my perspective on this since I have always been an outsider to both communities, my own heritage and the "Americans."

Edit: Sorry forgot to address the attitudes.

Yes, correct they are much more exclusionary then they are inclusionary. I have been to a Filipino pride parade. Since I don't speak the language, they couldn't be bothered to include me in the conversations.

[The_Jazz]

I'm only going to interject one thing into this conversation - the Latin Grammys encompass more "American" than people are giving credit for. They include Mexican and other Latin American artists and have several catagories for Spanish-only music.

[ARTelevision]

I see no advantage in people defining themselves as members of so-called ethnic groups. That seems to lead to an increasing urge to ghettoize oneself.

This amounts to a politicalization of our less than significant differences.
When that happens - we've just created more excuses for endless conflict.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

I'm only going to interject one thing into this conversation - the Latin Grammys encompass more "American" than people are giving credit for. They include Mexican and other Latin American artists and have several catagories for Spanish-only music.

Well, it's really semantics when looked at that way, since this entire hemisphere is 'America', but divided as South, Central and North. We could say someone from Brazil who has never left their country is 'Brazilian-American', but we don't. It's a given that the US is what is meant with the hyphenations.
To what Cyn says about the advertising dollar being the catalyst, I agree, but I think it's also an exclusionary/inclusionary train of thought; 'we feel under-represented and pushed aside, so we'll do our own'. (regarding Latin Grammys, etc., not those dumb VH1 'awards' shows).
The CMA's and AMA's were started by Dick Clark because he saw an opportunity to make some really huge bucks off those burgeoning markets and he didn't like the pompousness and exclusionary of music styles of the Grammys. (the first year metal was recognized by the Grammys, Jethro Tull got the award..there's a WTF moment).
Racial and cultural exclusions may start with the feeling of wanting to be recognized, but I think it's more wanting a piece of the action as time goes on.
In other words, altruism gives way to the greenbacks. When they stop rolling in, suddenly proclamations of 'it worked! we're included now!' come about.

[mixedmedia]

Whatever do you mean, my country music awards.

Awards shows have proven to draw audiences. Of course, there is not time in a 3-4 hour broadcast for all of the Grammy categories to get equal attention. It's been a long time since I watched the Grammys, but if I remember correctly, the emphasis has traditionally been on the winners in the pop, rock, r&b and, more recently, the rap categories. So given that categories such as Latin and Country music don't get as much attention combined with the fact that people tend to tune into awards shows...TA DA, you have your Latin and Country Music Awards shows. Do I watch them? No. But if they were to come up with, say, an Alternative Country Music Awards show or a music awards equivalent of the Independent Spirit Awards for film, then I might watch those. Because I have interest in those forms of music. And I don't think to do so would be a direct rejection of anything. It's just me watching something on television that relates to my interests. I don't think it's fair to deny someone that individuality or identification simply because the interest in question is grounded in their ethnicity.