You're Paying More or Getting Less Than You Think - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Randerolf · 02-28-2007, 09:53 PM

As a server, the Cornell School of Hotel Administration always has interesting studies ...

Quote:

Cornell Study Says Tipping Makes Restaurants Seem Less Expensive

red bar Ithaca, NY, February 12, 2007 – Why do restaurants rely on tips instead of a flat wage to compensate waiters and waitresses? Why not build the cost of service into menu prices? One explanation involves the way consumers determine how expensive a restaurant is. According to this idea, consumers will perceive restaurants with higher menu prices but no tipping to be more expensive than restaurants with lower menu prices and tipping. A new study from the Cornell Center for Hospitality Research finds that this is exactly what happens.

The study, “The Effects on Perceived Restaurant Expensiveness of Tipping and Its Alternatives,” compared the expensiveness ratings of restaurants with tipping, added service charges, and service-inclusive pricing. Of those three practices, the one that seems the most expensive to customers is service-inclusive pricing. Tipping and service charges, on the other hand, seem to take advantage of lower menu prices despite higher add-on service costs. Thus, restaurant customers don’t appear to take tips into account when they judge how expensive a restaurant is. The study is available at no charge from http://www.hotelschool.cornell.edu/c...erreports.html.

Authors Shuo Wang and Michael Lynn, both of the Cornell School of Hotel Administration, used a computer simulation that allowed participants to make food selections from several restaurants, each of which used tipping, service charges, or service-inclusive pricing. Even after the participants saw their final bill, which included a tip or service charge, they viewed the restaurant with service-inclusive prices as more expensive.

“We concluded that our participants were generally using menu prices—and not the total bill—as their guide for how expensive they viewed our simulated restaurants,” said Lynn, an associate professor of marketing. “Thus, it seems to us that only restaurants with price-insensitive customers can adopt service-inclusive pricing without risking the loss of customers.”

link

The methods that companies use to give their product a higher perceived value or a cheaper price are fascinating. From the all-you-can-rent Netflix subscription (they start dragging their heels, and delaying your shipments if your appetite for DVD's is as unlimited as your subscription) to the $2.369 per gallon (yeah, that 1/1000 of a cent bargain) I paid for fuel today, companies maneuver to make people think that they are getting a deal. Ever notice the shrinking size of cereal boxes, yet steady prices? Are such practices good, bad, or just circumstance?

Has anyone read Robert Cialdini's Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion ? It's a great read to see how people are manipulated by - among other organizations - businesses.

ngdawg · 02-28-2007, 10:31 PM

I work for a national department store. An example of the mind games they play: Towels. 'Regular' price-$7.99. Sales on this particular towel range from 50% off to 3 for $10.00 to Buy one, get one free. In 14 months, I have never seen them at 'regular price', ever. The 'BOGO' is a true scam-you're made to feel obligated to get that second one or pay the jacked-up 'regular' price for one.
To add to these 'bargains', we are supposed to 'sell' store credit cards-'if you open a card to day, you'll get 10% off this sale and 12 additional percent-offs through the year'. I don't bother asking unless they're buying a big-ticket item.
I think in the case of restaurants, people think they're 'in control' when they tip without the 'service charge' included on the bill. Typically, where I worked(prvately owned 'upperscale' small place), we added the tip of 18% to any bill where there were 8 or more diners. But many people, especially senior citizens, don't tip 18%; some leave a flat amount, regardless of the bill and I found most seniors rarely went over 10%. Business men tipped well as did construction workers. Women tipped ok, but really rate the quality of service and food when tipping and leave exactly what they feel their server deserves. Interestingly, where I worked (as hostess/cashier/gofer), one daytime waitress was a woman in her 60's who was personable, called everyone 'hon'....and yet, if I waited on certain people, they tipped me more than her, even though I was not a good waitress. One, a professor, she thought a bit ornery, even 'warning' me about him, but on a day she wasn't there and I waited on him, he was a delight.(I've seen him since then and he's still a delight toward me).
I think we form 'relationships' with money, starting at a young age with our family's influence and it carries over as to how we think it should best be 'shared' when buying goods or services. Had that study be in-field and the use of real servers and goods be factored in, the results might change. Would they think it too expensive if an older experienced server waited on them vs. the younger klutz? Vice Versa?

smooth · 03-01-2007, 01:09 AM

I rarely feel that I shouldn't tip.
Only at a very expensive restuarant that explicitly states that gratuity is included or poor service.

And that's only because I don't have the funds to double-tip.
At average priced restuarants and especially my pizza dude, I pay 20%--even if it's claimed to be in the price. I asked my pizza dude, "why is it this much when the price was that much" "delivery charge" he replied. "what do you get from that? .50 cents?" "Yeah"
"Well here's $5"

The price is what it is. I tip for service and I want my servers to remember me fondly. I don't imagine that I'm making anyone wealthy, but my pizza deliveries are always piping hot and a fiver buys a sixer so I doubt it goes unappreciated

Now my wife, she tips like a loon. But that's because she *only* makes tips and she wants to makes sure women know she appreciates them.

ratbastid · 03-01-2007, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

'if you open a card to day, you'll get 10% off this sale and 12 additional percent-offs through the year'

I know that store! I love that store! It's the only department store I'm ever happy to shop at. And I carry my Kohl's card proudly.

It's true that I don't really factor the tip into the pricing when I look at a menu. Maybe I ought to, though. I've been in the service industry, and I know how it is. I tip pizza people like crazy, and I happen to know they fight over deliveries to my house.

warrrreagl · 03-01-2007, 05:49 AM

Now that minimum wage has increased, you should expect to see every restaurant you visit introduce brand new menus - with new, higher prices.

Siege · 03-01-2007, 06:00 AM

Maybe i'm just incredibley frugal, but I calculate the cost, sales tax, tip and then compare it to other foods I could be buying instead.

Charlatan · 03-01-2007, 06:25 AM

tipping is frowned upon here. you don't tip cab drivers, bellhops, etc.

as for restaurants, service is always added onto the bill and can range anywhere from 10% to 18%.

Yakk · 03-01-2007, 08:26 AM

Working out what 1 cent of gas price on a tank works out to is useful. It makes you realize you should go to the less busy of the two gas stations on the corner sometimes.

Of course, in town there is "the most expensive gas station" on one of the high-class roads. I went there once (my tank was getting close to empty, and I didn't plan ahead) -- full service, and the full service costs 10% more than anywhere else. But you get rather skilled and personable workers -- while I was there, someone dropped off a box of donuts for the gas station crew.

(Island Park in Ottawa, if curious)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

I work for a national department store. An example of the mind games they play: Towels. 'Regular' price-$7.99. Sales on this particular towel range from 50% off to 3 for $10.00 to Buy one, get one free. In 14 months, I have never seen them at 'regular price', ever. The 'BOGO' is a true scam-you're made to feel obligated to get that second one or pay the jacked-up 'regular' price for one.

In at least some juristictions, perma-sales are illegal. At least some fraction (I forgot if it was case law or legislation) of the time, the good must be availiable to be bought and not-on-sale.

The trick to avoid this is, of course, have 3 products that are pretty close to identical, and rotate which is on sale. This generates an additional benefit -- people who are not price sensative pick which of the 3 products they prefer, and ignore the 50% off. (ie, 3 sets of towels with different weave patterns/sizes/colours)

Dawg, note that I don't want to be called 'hon' by wait staff. It annoys me. So do the little smiley faces on the bills. Note that I'm anomolous -- last I checked, a female putting the smiley face on gets more tips -- but that kind of reaction might explain the lower tips for the 'hon' lady. Either that, or you are prettier.

Gilda · 03-01-2007, 09:40 AM

I consider the tip a part of the cost of the meal, and factor that in when consider price as a factor for where to eat. We generally tip 15% for adequate service, 20% for good service.

I don't like being called "hon" by a waitress--that makes it slightly less likely she's getting the 20%. My name isn't "hon", it's Miss/Mrs. Nakamura, or for a service provider who doesn't know that, "miss" or "ma'am."

We've not had problems with Netflix, but frankly I don't really care a whole lot what their internal policies are. I suspect that, because we tend to rent a lot of classic, foreign and arthouse movies and new releases aren't a high priority, we don't get dinged as often by the preferential queueing* practices. What matters is whether we have a movie we want to watch available when we want to watch it. If we do, I'm cool. If not, I'm not all that concerned why, I'd just stop the service if it occurred to often.

I'm probably affected by sales techniques--we all are to some extent--so I tend to try to look at absolute value rather than comparative value for most purchases. If I'm in the market for towels, I look at the current cost and ask myself if they're worth that price, regardless of whether this is the regular price or a sale price. That's the plan, anyway.

Sure, it helps to be wary of hidden costs, but it's also important to take into account the effect these costs have on us as individuals. If Netflix's rental program isn't hurting me, and isn't immoral, do I really need to drop it because other heavy renters of popular movies aren't getting their movies quickly? I don't think so.

Grasshopper Green · 03-01-2007, 10:30 AM

I calculate tip into the cost of eating out. I don't think it's frugal, I think it's common sense.

As for other products...working in a grocery store, I notice ounces, etc on packaging because new packaging means new UPC's, which directly affects my job. Product size usually gets smaller while the price remains the same, and there was an explosion of smaller sizes (as well as some higher pricing) after Katrina. I know people complain about rising prices, but I guess people (at least some) don't notice the smaller sizes they are getting.

ngdawg · 03-01-2007, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warrrreagl

Now that minimum wage has increased, you should expect to see every restaurant you visit introduce brand new menus - with new, higher prices.

As a general rule, in the restaurant industry, servers do not earn minimum wage-they earn less than. It's the tips that bring up their income.
There are several ways tips are figured into income. One, done mainly in national chains, the tips are turned into bookeeping and included in the paycheck. Another, tips are 'pooled' at the end of the shift and, depending on the business, divided equally between servers with a percentage going to busboys and hostesses. Still another, servers pocket their own earned tips and do not report them. When I worked, 1998-2000, waitresses earned just over $2 an hour, plus pooled and divided tips. As hostess/cashier, I earned $6.75 an hour, no sharing of tips, although if it was super busy and I helped serve, they'd hand me a few bucks out of their tip pool. In turn, if i got tips, those, too would go into the tip pool.

jorgelito · 03-01-2007, 02:18 PM

I love being called "hon" or "sweetie" or "darlin'", especially by the older, more matronly looking waitresses. It's just nice. It works best at diners, small or family type restaurants. I usually end up ordering a piece of pie when they are like that or whatever dessert that is "simply the best in these parts".

Not so sure I'd like it at a high class upscale fancy restaurant and if the waiter was a dude.

I don't understand why anyone would pay another tip on top of the one included (referring to smooths post). Is this standard procedure or expected?

Also, I don't get the delivery charge. Presumably it should go to the driver, why would they only get $.50 of it? It just sounds like getting charged twice for the same service.

analog · 03-01-2007, 04:34 PM

It's not a surprising finding if you've ever been in sales, it's purely a mind trick- it's the same reason that everything is *.99 not just $x, evenly. Consumers as a whole perceive the $x.99 to "feel" cheaper than that one cent to round it to $x. The normal explanation for this is that people scan the number and whatever the "dollar" amount is determines it's value, so obviously $9.99 feels "cheaper" than $10 because you see the $9 first. Sound ridiculous? I agree, but we (consumers) do actually think that way, if only subconsciously.

Cynthetiq · 03-01-2007, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

tipping is frowned upon in singapore. you don't tip cab drivers, bellhops, etc.

as for restaurants, service is always added onto the bill and can range anywhere from 10% to 18%.

aaaah the old ++ I miss that, very upfront in reminding you that tax and tip are ADDED to the cost of the sale item.

S$5++ oh how I miss that... knowing that it was really closer to S$7

This is not new, it's the same reasoning as why they don't list the prices INCLUDING tax or shipping and handling charges.

Heck even the informercials have beaten it down to just 5 EASY payments of $49.99 instead of $249.95. Leases state simple numbers like $99/month, putting all the rest into the small print like the delivery charges, sign up fees, etc. Low interest rates for borrowing money but longer terms, the list goes on an on.

People are easily fooled.

ngdawg · 03-01-2007, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakk

Working out what 1 cent of gas price on a tank works out to is useful. It makes you realize you should go to the less busy of the two gas stations on the corner sometimes.

Of course, in town there is "the most expensive gas station" on one of the high-class roads. I went there once (my tank was getting close to empty, and I didn't plan ahead) -- full service, and the full service costs 10% more than anywhere else. But you get rather skilled and personable workers -- while I was there, someone dropped off a box of donuts for the gas station crew.

(Island Park in Ottawa, if curious)

In at least some juristictions, perma-sales are illegal. At least some fraction (I forgot if it was case law or legislation) of the time, the good must be availiable to be bought and not-on-sale.

The trick to avoid this is, of course, have 3 products that are pretty close to identical, and rotate which is on sale. This generates an additional benefit -- people who are not price sensative pick which of the 3 products they prefer, and ignore the 50% off. (ie, 3 sets of towels with different weave patterns/sizes/colours)

Dawg, note that I don't want to be called 'hon' by wait staff. It annoys me. So do the little smiley faces on the bills. Note that I'm anomolous -- last I checked, a female putting the smiley face on gets more tips -- but that kind of reaction might explain the lower tips for the 'hon' lady. Either that, or you are prettier.

Considering that she was 64 to my 45, prettier would be probably be a logical guess, but not really a reason to get better treatment from the people you're waiting on, specially when everything else in terms of professionalism, experience, etc., come into play.
There have been reports on news magazines in the past though, pitting average or homely people against attractive, with the attractive ones always coming out on top.
I don't know if NJ has laws about 'perma-sales', but we do get our sales information and setups from corporate, located in Wisconsin. Kohl's has a unique way of doing things: general sales go from Sunday-Saturday, then they have 4-day specials that can run anytime from Tuesday to Saturday or Thursday to Sunday. Add to that their 'Seniors Days' and the cardholders' mailings, plus instore cardholder percentage off specials and it becomes a labyrinth of pricing. If they took items and didn't have them on sale for even one day a month, they'd be bypassing any perma-sale laws. Customers come in expecting us to immediately know what's on sale and for how much-something impossible to do the ways things are set up.

little_tippler · 03-02-2007, 06:31 AM

I'm not sure I agree with obligatory tipping. In Portugal it's not entirely obligatory, though it's looked on positively if you do. Some services kind of expect tip. I dislike this. I also feel that 20% of the bill is a bit too much tip. Here 10% is about decent, if it's a big bill then maybe a bit more.

I think the service should be included in your bill. I don't see why I don't get tips for my job, I work hard too damn it but nobody ever offers me tips. I understand that some waiters live on the tips, but that's not my fault. Life isn't an easy ride.

I'd rather just tip if I feel that I have been particularly well taken care of. In my job (I work in an art gallery), the only "tip" I have ever had is perhaps a gift from an artist of a small drawing as a thanks for my help and good work. Seems more genuine to me.

stevie667 · 03-02-2007, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

It's not a surprising finding if you've ever been in sales, it's purely a mind trick- it's the same reason that everything is *.99 not just $x, evenly. Consumers as a whole perceive the $x.99 to "feel" cheaper than that one cent to round it to $x. The normal explanation for this is that people scan the number and whatever the "dollar" amount is determines it's value, so obviously $9.99 feels "cheaper" than $10 because you see the $9 first. Sound ridiculous? I agree, but we (consumers) do actually think that way, if only subconsciously.

My grandad tells a story of discovering this when he used to run a shop, he charged 1 or 2 pennys below the full £ amount (e.g. 2.99 instead of 3.00) to force the cashiers to open the till to give change, and thus prevent them from pocketing the customers money.

Later on he noticed that customers were buying more of the discounted items than before. He's got the sales records to prove it...every time we go round.

Interesting the way that things work out!

Randerolf · 03-02-2007, 11:43 AM

My friend and I were talking about this subject last night and he - coming from a retail background - told me how the expensive things are located in front of his store where he can recommend them to customers or for the hurried to simply pick up at a glance.

I brought up how usually the better deals in a retail environment are around ankle height while the more expensive ones are around chest level.

In the end, I see it not as good nor bad, but how the game is set up.

kutulu · 03-02-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Also, I don't get the delivery charge. Presumably it should go to the driver, why would they only get $.50 of it? It just sounds like getting charged twice for the same service.

Pizzarias are different entities. Some include delivery charges, some don't (instead factoring it into the cost). When they do charge them, the store may or may not take a portion of it (or even all of it). I think the company taking part of it is just them being greedy. I worked for two pizzarias and one of them took 1/3 of the delivery charge (they charged 2.25 and gave us 1.50 of it).

The basic reason for it is that regardless of whether or not a person tips, it costs the driver money to get your order to your house (gas, mileage, insurance, etc.). If they didn't have the delievery charge, the driver would lose money when they don't get a tip (or may barely break even when they do tip).

Personally, I'd rather pay a delivery charge when I want it brought to me than to have to include it in my costs when I pick it up myself.

The thing that sucks about the delivery charge is that as a driver you don't look at the money you get from the store in the way you should. You rack up a lot of miles delivering and if you don't set aside enough money for maintenance/repairs/buying the next car, you find yourself in a bind. If I could do it again, after paying for gas, I would have taken all of the remaining money from delivery charges and split it up between paying off the car and setting it aside for repairs.

Back to tipping in general, yes it is a hidden cost, but you have to live under a rock to not be aware of the fact that tipping is expected. What you may not be aware of is that in order to cover their asses, restaraunts force servers to claim a certain percentage of their sales as income. Therefore, they are getting taxed on the tip whether or not you give it to them. They may also mandate that a percentage of their sales is paid to the bar, runners, busers, etc. Therefore, when you decide that you shouldn't have to tip because you are a cheapass or tip less because a lot of the cost is from drinks or whatever, you ARE directly costing the server money and screwing up the process for everyone.

DJ Happy · 03-04-2007, 02:24 AM

I normally tip based on how many people are being waited on, not the cost of my meal - why should people get tipped more because I had the $50 lobster as opposed to the $10 salad? It still comes on one plate, the waiter still has to make one trip.

I also prefer to decide on the tip myself, rather than having it included in the bill. A number of times I've received truly abysmal service at places where service was included, probably because the waiters knew they were getting some money whether they were hospitable or not. I refused to pay and each time had it deducted from my bill.

MSD · 03-04-2007, 10:04 AM

Tips are a good thing for customer service. People know that they have to work to earn their money, therefore service is better than if they were guaranteed a fixed wage. I know I worked a lot harder when I worked on commission than I do now in my IT job (honestly I can't even call half of what I do, "work.")

The waiter or waitress isn't working there because they like to see the smile on your face or enjoy dealing with dozens of self-important assholes a day, they're there because they need to make money to survive, just like the rest of us. If you really need a selfish reason to tip, if you're a regular, a polite customer, and a good tipper, you'll notice that over time the amount of food you get, the number of mistakes where you're charged for a single drink instead of a round, and the speed of service, all increase over time.

Furry · 03-04-2007, 02:05 PM

Here in the UK tipping is fairly optional and any service charge included in the bill is pretty rare, although it is normal to see a service change applied to parties of over 8 or so. We have a minimum wage that works out at current exchange rates at about $10 - 12, about £5, so tipping to make ends meet for my server doesn't really enter into my thought processes at all.

I'll tip when I think a tip is deserved - tips for me are just that, they have to be earned. Mostly I tip for speedy and discreet service. I won't tip for clumsy or slow service, but 10% is about the norm, unless service is superlative in which case it'll depend on the bill. Also, if I get the feeling that tips are expected, I won't tip.

I've had the privilege of visiting the US few times, and mostly when in Rome... etc, but places or servers that are unsubtle about expected tipping totally hack me off. It's not part of your wages, it's a reward for going above and beyond the standards I expect from you in your job. That said, I've been to a few places where service has been quite frankly heroic - that deserves extra reward.

"Here's your starter, Sir, but I'm afraid your main will be slightly delayed."
"Oh?"
"Unfortunately, the kitchen has caught fire."

Had it not been for the burning smell a few minutes later, I wouldn't have believed him. My main course still arrived on time...

ShaniFaye · 03-04-2007, 02:19 PM

I refuse to eat anywhere that adds the "gratuity" in the bill (except for large parties...I expect that), if I get somewhere and find out that is their practice I WILL get up and leave.

I tip based on service, not the amount of my bill, I will not tip "more" because my wine costs more than if I'd just gotten a sweet tea. (Now bartenders are a dif story in my book)

I will start at 15% and add or subtract depending on the level of service I get. If you are a server that lets my drink glass (regular drink, not alcohol) get empty and I have to ask another server to find mine because Im out....you'd better believe the tip is going down

amonkie · 03-04-2007, 10:13 PM

I've worked for tips in both a delivery setting and as a musician.

As a musician, my tips were supplementing my pay from the restaurant. I used that to gauge enjoyment of my presence, and having songs to play that people enjoyed hearing or that they requested.

As a driver, I agree with the wear and tear - I went through a tank of gas in 3 days just delivering. We special delivered to a smaller town about 10 miles south - much larger distance than normal - and nothing pissed me off more than knowing it cost me more than the .75 per trip, and not getting a tip.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-06-2007, 08:10 AM

I'll go 15% for adequate service and 20% for exceptional, but I don't feel bad "stiffing" the waitstaff for "only" 10% if their service sucked. It's known to happen, after all, and maybe the 10%'ers should be working elsewhere.

Ample · 03-06-2007, 11:09 AM

I tip at a restaurant almost always 20% regardless of the service. I worked as a pizza delivery driver like kutulu at one time. If your pizza is late or has the wrong toppings its not the drivers fault and if your steak is medium well rather than welldone or if takes a long time, its not the waiters fault. When you give a tip, at least for me I'm don't feel like I am tipping the restaurant but the person bringing the food to me. I realize that that guy could be making as little as 2.50 an hour, and being in that place one, I always make sure I help out by tipping more than I should.

jbw97361 · 03-06-2007, 05:15 PM

In effort of full disclosure, I work as a server. (Thats the gender neutered term for waiter/waitress that is now preferred by most companies.)

For starters, every restaurant have ever worked for pays their servers SUB MINIMUM WAGE (legally). Depending on the minimum wage in the state, you can make as low as two dollars an hour. I work at one of the bigger corporate owned restaurants (in a hotel) and I make a grand four bucks an hour. Therefore my income is almost entirely tips.

If you are eating at a moderate to expensive restaurant, ask your waiter whats the setup there. Some places the staff pool their tips (socialist system) while at other places its winner-take-all (capitalist system). If the person waiting on you is cool, feel free to ask them how the tips are divvied. If people ask me, I have no problem explaining how it works. It's not like I mention how much I make, but I give them the formula for figuring out whats up.

Additionally, I have no problem getting no tip if I really did a crappy job. I have bought many a meal through my brief career because I know that I screwed up and I was the one at fault. If you feel you got shafted, go right ahead and don't tip; otherwise be kind to your server.

02-28-2007, 10:31 PM	#2 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	I work for a national department store. An example of the mind games they play: Towels. 'Regular' price-$7.99. Sales on this particular towel range from 50% off to 3 for $10.00 to Buy one, get one free. In 14 months, I have never seen them at 'regular price', ever. The 'BOGO' is a true scam-you're made to feel obligated to get that second one or pay the jacked-up 'regular' price for one. To add to these 'bargains', we are supposed to 'sell' store credit cards-'if you open a card to day, you'll get 10% off this sale and 12 additional percent-offs through the year'. I don't bother asking unless they're buying a big-ticket item. I think in the case of restaurants, people think they're 'in control' when they tip without the 'service charge' included on the bill. Typically, where I worked(prvately owned 'upperscale' small place), we added the tip of 18% to any bill where there were 8 or more diners. But many people, especially senior citizens, don't tip 18%; some leave a flat amount, regardless of the bill and I found most seniors rarely went over 10%. Business men tipped well as did construction workers. Women tipped ok, but really rate the quality of service and food when tipping and leave exactly what they feel their server deserves. Interestingly, where I worked (as hostess/cashier/gofer), one daytime waitress was a woman in her 60's who was personable, called everyone 'hon'....and yet, if I waited on certain people, they tipped me more than her, even though I was not a good waitress. One, a professor, she thought a bit ornery, even 'warning' me about him, but on a day she wasn't there and I waited on him, he was a delight.(I've seen him since then and he's still a delight toward me). I think we form 'relationships' with money, starting at a young age with our family's influence and it carries over as to how we think it should best be 'shared' when buying goods or services. Had that study be in-field and the use of real servers and goods be factored in, the results might change. Would they think it too expensive if an older experienced server waited on them vs. the younger klutz? Vice Versa? __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

03-01-2007, 01:09 AM	#3 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	I rarely feel that I shouldn't tip. Only at a very expensive restuarant that explicitly states that gratuity is included or poor service. And that's only because I don't have the funds to double-tip. At average priced restuarants and especially my pizza dude, I pay 20%--even if it's claimed to be in the price. I asked my pizza dude, "why is it this much when the price was that much" "delivery charge" he replied. "what do you get from that? .50 cents?" "Yeah" "Well here's $5" The price is what it is. I tip for service and I want my servers to remember me fondly. I don't imagine that I'm making anyone wealthy, but my pizza deliveries are always piping hot and a fiver buys a sixer so I doubt it goes unappreciated Now my wife, she tips like a loon. But that's because she only makes tips and she wants to makes sure women know she appreciates them. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman Last edited by smooth; 03-01-2007 at 01:12 AM..

03-01-2007, 05:49 AM	#5 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	Now that minimum wage has increased, you should expect to see every restaurant you visit introduce brand new menus - with new, higher prices. __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

03-01-2007, 06:00 AM	#6 (permalink)
Siege is a tiger Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada	Maybe i'm just incredibley frugal, but I calculate the cost, sales tax, tip and then compare it to other foods I could be buying instead. __________________ "Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek" --Kevin Smith This part just makes my posts easier to find

03-01-2007, 06:25 AM	#7 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	tipping is frowned upon here. you don't tip cab drivers, bellhops, etc. as for restaurants, service is always added onto the bill and can range anywhere from 10% to 18%. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke Last edited by Charlatan; 02-19-2008 at 01:23 AM..

03-01-2007, 09:40 AM	#9 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	I consider the tip a part of the cost of the meal, and factor that in when consider price as a factor for where to eat. We generally tip 15% for adequate service, 20% for good service. I don't like being called "hon" by a waitress--that makes it slightly less likely she's getting the 20%. My name isn't "hon", it's Miss/Mrs. Nakamura, or for a service provider who doesn't know that, "miss" or "ma'am." We've not had problems with Netflix, but frankly I don't really care a whole lot what their internal policies are. I suspect that, because we tend to rent a lot of classic, foreign and arthouse movies and new releases aren't a high priority, we don't get dinged as often by the preferential queueing* practices. What matters is whether we have a movie we want to watch available when we want to watch it. If we do, I'm cool. If not, I'm not all that concerned why, I'd just stop the service if it occurred to often. I'm probably affected by sales techniques--we all are to some extent--so I tend to try to look at absolute value rather than comparative value for most purchases. If I'm in the market for towels, I look at the current cost and ask myself if they're worth that price, regardless of whether this is the regular price or a sale price. That's the plan, anyway. Sure, it helps to be wary of hidden costs, but it's also important to take into account the effect these costs have on us as individuals. If Netflix's rental program isn't hurting me, and isn't immoral, do I really need to drop it because other heavy renters of popular movies aren't getting their movies quickly? I don't think so. __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert

03-01-2007, 10:30 AM	#10 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	I calculate tip into the cost of eating out. I don't think it's frugal, I think it's common sense. As for other products...working in a grocery store, I notice ounces, etc on packaging because new packaging means new UPC's, which directly affects my job. Product size usually gets smaller while the price remains the same, and there was an explosion of smaller sizes (as well as some higher pricing) after Katrina. I know people complain about rising prices, but I guess people (at least some) don't notice the smaller sizes they are getting. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

03-01-2007, 02:18 PM	#12 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	I love being called "hon" or "sweetie" or "darlin'", especially by the older, more matronly looking waitresses. It's just nice. It works best at diners, small or family type restaurants. I usually end up ordering a piece of pie when they are like that or whatever dessert that is "simply the best in these parts". Not so sure I'd like it at a high class upscale fancy restaurant and if the waiter was a dude. I don't understand why anyone would pay another tip on top of the one included (referring to smooths post). Is this standard procedure or expected? Also, I don't get the delivery charge. Presumably it should go to the driver, why would they only get $.50 of it? It just sounds like getting charged twice for the same service.

03-01-2007, 04:34 PM	#13 (permalink)
analog Banned	It's not a surprising finding if you've ever been in sales, it's purely a mind trick- it's the same reason that everything is *.99 not just $x, evenly. Consumers as a whole perceive the $x.99 to "feel" cheaper than that one cent to round it to $x. The normal explanation for this is that people scan the number and whatever the "dollar" amount is determines it's value, so obviously $9.99 feels "cheaper" than $10 because you see the $9 first. Sound ridiculous? I agree, but we (consumers) do actually think that way, if only subconsciously.

03-02-2007, 06:31 AM	#16 (permalink)
little_tippler Leaning against the -Sun- Super Moderator Location: on the other side	I'm not sure I agree with obligatory tipping. In Portugal it's not entirely obligatory, though it's looked on positively if you do. Some services kind of expect tip. I dislike this. I also feel that 20% of the bill is a bit too much tip. Here 10% is about decent, if it's a big bill then maybe a bit more. I think the service should be included in your bill. I don't see why I don't get tips for my job, I work hard too damn it but nobody ever offers me tips. I understand that some waiters live on the tips, but that's not my fault. Life isn't an easy ride. I'd rather just tip if I feel that I have been particularly well taken care of. In my job (I work in an art gallery), the only "tip" I have ever had is perhaps a gift from an artist of a small drawing as a thanks for my help and good work. Seems more genuine to me. __________________ Whether we write or speak or do but look We are ever unapparent. What we are Cannot be transfused into word or book. Our soul from us is infinitely far. However much we give our thoughts the will To be our soul and gesture it abroad, Our hearts are incommunicable still. In what we show ourselves we are ignored. The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged By any skill of thought or trick of seeming. Unto our very selves we are abridged When we would utter to our thought our being. We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams, And each to each other dreams of others' dreams. Fernando Pessoa, 1918

03-02-2007, 11:43 AM	#18 (permalink)
Randerolf Fireball Location: ~	My friend and I were talking about this subject last night and he - coming from a retail background - told me how the expensive things are located in front of his store where he can recommend them to customers or for the hurried to simply pick up at a glance. I brought up how usually the better deals in a retail environment are around ankle height while the more expensive ones are around chest level. In the end, I see it not as good nor bad, but how the game is set up.

03-04-2007, 02:24 AM	#20 (permalink)
DJ Happy Psycho	I normally tip based on how many people are being waited on, not the cost of my meal - why should people get tipped more because I had the $50 lobster as opposed to the $10 salad? It still comes on one plate, the waiter still has to make one trip. I also prefer to decide on the tip myself, rather than having it included in the bill. A number of times I've received truly abysmal service at places where service was included, probably because the waiters knew they were getting some money whether they were hospitable or not. I refused to pay and each time had it deducted from my bill.

03-04-2007, 10:04 AM	#21 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Tips are a good thing for customer service. People know that they have to work to earn their money, therefore service is better than if they were guaranteed a fixed wage. I know I worked a lot harder when I worked on commission than I do now in my IT job (honestly I can't even call half of what I do, "work.") The waiter or waitress isn't working there because they like to see the smile on your face or enjoy dealing with dozens of self-important assholes a day, they're there because they need to make money to survive, just like the rest of us. If you really need a selfish reason to tip, if you're a regular, a polite customer, and a good tipper, you'll notice that over time the amount of food you get, the number of mistakes where you're charged for a single drink instead of a round, and the speed of service, all increase over time.

03-04-2007, 02:05 PM	#22 (permalink)
Furry Crazy Location: UK	Here in the UK tipping is fairly optional and any service charge included in the bill is pretty rare, although it is normal to see a service change applied to parties of over 8 or so. We have a minimum wage that works out at current exchange rates at about $10 - 12, about £5, so tipping to make ends meet for my server doesn't really enter into my thought processes at all. I'll tip when I think a tip is deserved - tips for me are just that, they have to be earned. Mostly I tip for speedy and discreet service. I won't tip for clumsy or slow service, but 10% is about the norm, unless service is superlative in which case it'll depend on the bill. Also, if I get the feeling that tips are expected, I won't tip. I've had the privilege of visiting the US few times, and mostly when in Rome... etc, but places or servers that are unsubtle about expected tipping totally hack me off. It's not part of your wages, it's a reward for going above and beyond the standards I expect from you in your job. That said, I've been to a few places where service has been quite frankly heroic - that deserves extra reward. "Here's your starter, Sir, but I'm afraid your main will be slightly delayed." "Oh?" "Unfortunately, the kitchen has caught fire." Had it not been for the burning smell a few minutes later, I wouldn't have believed him. My main course still arrived on time... __________________ Furry is the leader of his own cult, the "Furballs of Doom". They sit about chanting "Doom, Doom, Doom". (From a random shot in the dark by SirLance)

03-04-2007, 02:19 PM	#23 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I refuse to eat anywhere that adds the "gratuity" in the bill (except for large parties...I expect that), if I get somewhere and find out that is their practice I WILL get up and leave. I tip based on service, not the amount of my bill, I will not tip "more" because my wine costs more than if I'd just gotten a sweet tea. (Now bartenders are a dif story in my book) I will start at 15% and add or subtract depending on the level of service I get. If you are a server that lets my drink glass (regular drink, not alcohol) get empty and I have to ask another server to find mine because Im out....you'd better believe the tip is going down __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

03-04-2007, 10:13 PM	#24 (permalink)
amonkie Drifting Administrator Location: Windy City	I've worked for tips in both a delivery setting and as a musician. As a musician, my tips were supplementing my pay from the restaurant. I used that to gauge enjoyment of my presence, and having songs to play that people enjoyed hearing or that they requested. As a driver, I agree with the wear and tear - I went through a tank of gas in 3 days just delivering. We special delivered to a smaller town about 10 miles south - much larger distance than normal - and nothing pissed me off more than knowing it cost me more than the .75 per trip, and not getting a tip. __________________ Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

03-06-2007, 08:10 AM	#25 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	I'll go 15% for adequate service and 20% for exceptional, but I don't feel bad "stiffing" the waitstaff for "only" 10% if their service sucked. It's known to happen, after all, and maybe the 10%'ers should be working elsewhere. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-06-2007, 11:09 AM	#26 (permalink)
Ample Psycho Location: In your closet	I tip at a restaurant almost always 20% regardless of the service. I worked as a pizza delivery driver like kutulu at one time. If your pizza is late or has the wrong toppings its not the drivers fault and if your steak is medium well rather than welldone or if takes a long time, its not the waiters fault. When you give a tip, at least for me I'm don't feel like I am tipping the restaurant but the person bringing the food to me. I realize that that guy could be making as little as 2.50 an hour, and being in that place one, I always make sure I help out by tipping more than I should. __________________ Her juju beads are so nice She kissed my third cousin twice Im the king of pomona

03-06-2007, 05:15 PM	#27 (permalink)
jbw97361 Tilted	In effort of full disclosure, I work as a server. (Thats the gender neutered term for waiter/waitress that is now preferred by most companies.) For starters, every restaurant have ever worked for pays their servers SUB MINIMUM WAGE (legally). Depending on the minimum wage in the state, you can make as low as two dollars an hour. I work at one of the bigger corporate owned restaurants (in a hotel) and I make a grand four bucks an hour. Therefore my income is almost entirely tips. If you are eating at a moderate to expensive restaurant, ask your waiter whats the setup there. Some places the staff pool their tips (socialist system) while at other places its winner-take-all (capitalist system). If the person waiting on you is cool, feel free to ask them how the tips are divvied. If people ask me, I have no problem explaining how it works. It's not like I mention how much I make, but I give them the formula for figuring out whats up. Additionally, I have no problem getting no tip if I really did a crappy job. I have bought many a meal through my brief career because I know that I screwed up and I was the one at fault. If you feel you got shafted, go right ahead and don't tip; otherwise be kind to your server. __________________ JBW