jorgelito

So now the Iranian sponsored "Holocaust Cartoon Contest" has a winner, drawing condemnation from Israel, Jewish groups, and the US and UN. The contest was a retaliation for the Danish cartoons featuring Muhammed.

I think the West lost an opportunity to be the "bigger man" here. Instead of overreacting just like the Muslims did, they should have just brushed it off and even embracing it as free speech.

I looked at the description of the cartoon and didn't really get what the fuss was about. And besides, it's just the opinion of a cartoonist.

kurty[B]

overreacting? Yeah, we certainly could have ignored it, and it would not matter, but saying the idea is outrageous I do not think is overreacting. Now, attacking an Iranian or Moroccan embassy because of this would be overreacting. Is there a photo of the cartoon?

Amaras

Hey, no Muslim clerics were attacked. The same cannot be said of the nuns in Africa, nor the priest who was killed.

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jorgelito

No, there is no photo or copy of the cartoon that I know of at the moment. Hopefully one will be made available. I do worry that we (in the West) may end up self-censoring and we won't ever see it. Al-Jazeera may have on ethough, maybe someone can check their web-site. I won't do it from my home, school, or library computer (for obvious reasons).

Overreacting - good point, I suppose it is relative then. I guess I just had higher expectations that we wouldn't "freak" out over a cartoon like they did. I don't want to give Iran any more fodder to call us hypocrites and what-not.

I guess it's early so we'll have to see how this plays out.

Ustwo

That was the muslim responce IN THE US to the Danish cartoons.

Yea we really over reacted

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Carno

This thread is useless without cartoons.

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roachboy

this thread would be just as useless with cartoons.

what exactly is the point of it?

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jorgelito

I disagree that this thread is useless, with or without cartoons. I was trying to generate discussion about comparing different reactions to the Mohammed cartoon and the Holocaust cartoon. The point being that if one group advocates freedom of speech for one, then it must follow for the other. The Holocaust cartoon seems to be a silly retalitorial reaction to the Mohammed cartoon but nevertheless servesas a political statement.

If you don't like this thread, then don't read it or hit the back button. I don't find all of either of your posts to be all that useful either but I am polite enough to withold comment and hit the back button. Either contribute or don't post anything at all.

Good day.

roachboy

the problem is that i dont see where it can really go as it is currently framed except into a kind of exercise in self-congratulation.

this goofball contest has been going on for a few months--you can access the cartoons (or alot of them) via the museum in teheran that is hosting the exhibit associated with it (it is probably in the op article, but i dont remember....i looked at the website a while ago,...i assume it is still up)
the point of the exhibition and contest were obviously little more than a fuck you prompted by the western responses to the protests over the danish cartoon thing.
it is a more or less official venture of the iranian government.
so the whole thing (the exhibition, the contest, the article you bit for the op) operate within a series of specific and very strange political contexts, which are at this point fairly complicated (and which obviously have alot to do with the various politics about iran)...

so i apologize for the glib post from earlier--everyone gets a few alloted them i think--tick one off my list....

it is not that the thread is worthless, but it could be unless you take account of what surrounds this particular exhibition etc.----but as it stands, the way it is set up, you seem to want to get a sequence of posts talking about what heros of "free speech" folk in the west are....it could be taken in a different direction and could become something else. i should ahve suggested that instead of just being a putz. mea culpa.

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Ustwo

Yes because its our job to find fault with the West, capitalism and all that, not actually point out where its good.

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roachboy

huh?
well, you responded while i was editing (damn....)
maybe the new version makes the beside-the-pointness of your response even more obvious than it was, ustwo.

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KnifeMissile

ustwo, you really dislike those muslims, don't you? I've got to tell you, if I had to pick a religion, being greeted in heaven by 72 virgins would really sweeten the deal...

ASU2003

I am all about fairness. If the media wants to offend the Muslims, it is fair game for them to make some cartoons against Israel, the UN, and the US. I think they did a good job, and I laughed at the statue of liberty one (it is so true). And the Israel looks like it is about how they are building the wall to keep 'terrorists' out, but during the holocaust, there was also a wall around them to keep them in. Their conditions are a little better now though.

Here is the winner:
http://www.irancartoon.com/120/holocaust/index.htm



http://www.irancartoon.com/100/conte...o-(Ukraine.jpg

dc_dux

,
I dont get your "bigger man" argument. I dont think the US and Israel have "overreacted" nor do I think they should just "brush it off".

IMO, both the US and Israel governments have responded appropriately by condemning the extremist Islamic government of Iran for this "contest" and not broadly condemning Islam or suggesting in any way that it represesents more that what it is.

As to free speech, I suspect we will see the cartoon in the media of both the US and Israel, with a proper description and without mischaracterizing it, as some here seem prone to do when it comes to the acts of Muslim extremists.

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cyrnel

The first one could be taken several ways. For me it's more profound than a slam or simple satire.

The second is absolutely spot on. Not that I can figure out what on earth it has to do with the Holocaust.

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ASU2003

The second one wasn't really in the Holocaust contest, it was on the same site for a different contest, and I thought it was really funny. The holocaust ones were a little depressing.

If Iran wanted to make the headlines, they would build a full scale version of that statue of liberty and put it on a barge and drive it all over the Middle East and then in International waters off the coast of America. (I think they should of went with the pizza box with a big corporate logo on it, but the hamburger is appropirate too.)

jorgelito

Roach, thanks for your response, I appreciate your clarification. Fair enough, I probably didn't frame the discussion well enough and should have given it more thought instead of rushing to post.

My intention was a non-partisan evaluation and examination of how two "sides" approach and deal with a controversy that entails free speech. I wanted to look at how the Islamic world dealt with the Mohammed (Danish) cartoon) vis-a-vis the western reaction to the Holocaust Cartoon. To me this was an intriguing and interesting focal point as I believe many if the so-called "clash of civilizations" conflicts could be examined in this example. I especially wanted to view it through a more objetive and non-partisan lens instead of the usual partisanship we get here. That's why I chose to post it in General Discussion and not Politics.

Your point about the Iranian participation is interesting. Iran did spearhead the event but participants came from all over with the eventual winner from Morocco. Iran intrigues me. Was it a deliberate "fuck you" to the west or could there be another reason? Maybe they have "given us a taste of our own medicine"? It's an interesting move because our reaction to it in my opinion, will be watched by many. If we claim a freedom of speech route, then we have to allow it on the other end. I suppose a better counter would have been a cartoon of Jesus carrying a sword and shield or dressed in modern military garb in a menacing manner (as an analogue to the Mohammed cartoon).

If we object too vehemently or what-not, then we could be called out as hypocrites and of setting a double standard. This is what I had originall set out to discuss in regards ti the cartoons.

DC, I tried to clarify things in my response post to Roach, thanks.

I'm not sure I agree with the condemnation though. While a theme of Holocaust may be tasteless (subjective), unless it was a specific contest to illustrate a Holocaust denial then it shouldn't be a problem.

Looking at the descriptions and now the example provided by ASU2003, I don't really get a Holocaust connection either or even how these cartoons would need condemning by any government.

I don't see any mischaracterization here or are you referring to something else?

Thanks for posting these ASU2003. I agree with our post very much (it's actually what I was trying to allude to but failed miserably).

I must admit, I rather like the cartoons (I'm a fan of political cartoons already).

Ok, wow, I just went and checked out all the cartoons.

Very powerful stuff ranging from Holocaust denial to comparing the Holocaust to present-day treatment of the Palestinians. Many of them are very well done.

Although I didn't like the denial stuff, many of the others were very well stated and powerful in conveying their respective messages. Some reminded me of my trip to Israel and the West Bank this summer. I recommend taking a look.

DJ Happy

When the 'Mohammed' cartoons were originally published, the reaction from the Islamic world was even more muted than Israel's and the US's to these ones. It was only through the persistant baiting by certain media that reactions started to escalate.

I wish I could say I was surprised by the hypocrisy demonstrated by the US here, but I'm not.

MuadDib

I'm sorry but the Mohammed cartoon and this are completely different. First, this was a tailored response. Hell, they held a contest asking for entries in this instance while the other was just a political cartoon that happened at random. Second, this is just another excuse to attack the FACT of the holocaust and Israel. What did Jews or Israel have to do with the Danish cartoon again? Oh yeah, nothing of substance so why attack them. Third, back to the fact issue, does no else see a fundamental difference in action of violating a religious taboo (of a religion that the actor and the majority of the audience are not a part) and holding a contest specifically meant to poke fun at the great genocidal event of the modern era? Come on people! I'm not one to cowtow to the US especially on hypocracy issues, but there is a clear and bright line between violating another's taboo through carelessness and intending to harm/deny the suffering of an entire society. Yes it's fine to criticize the Israeli government and even aspects of Jewish culture, but to poke fun or, even worse, deny horrible fact crosses a moral line that any thinking, feeling person should take offense at. Finally, yes, this is covered by freedom of the press but let's not go heralding the how free and strong the Iranian press is just because in our country this would be allowed despite it rubbing a lot of people the wrong way. This contest was held specifically to fall in line with the governmental popular position of anti-semitism. Do you think they could have held a contest like this offensive to Islam or the government? Hell, do you think they could have held any contest or even article that critiqued the established positions of their president? Free press my butt. There is nothing redeemable about this contest even if in other papers or in other countries there may have been.

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Ustwo

Yes we egged them on, the Islamists are well known for their restraint. I'm so glad you came to educate us on that. It is now all clear to me. Its the media's fault.

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Seer666

I fail to see how calling something outrageous is hypocrisy. I know, let's hold a riot. That's the cool thing to do over these comics, isn't it?

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debaser

Several of the cartoons did not show up for me, but the first prize and the one by Gatto Alessandro were very well done. Holocaust denial is retarded, but so is an unwillingness to view oneself through historys lens.

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clavus

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the Jewish cartoon response. Some cartoonists in Israel launched their own cartoon contest to make fun of Jews. Their position was that NOBODY could make fun of Jewish people as well as the Jews themselves. Look at Mel Brooks, for example.

Political aikido

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jorgelito

I never heard of this, I would love to see this. That's awesome, I wonder why it went under the radar?

mixedmedia

This is the most heart-warming thing I've heard in quite a long time.

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dc_dux

The "Israeli Anti-Semitic Cartoon Contest" was the brainchild of a graphic artist and cartoonist in Tel Aviv. It received mixed responses in Israel. Many. holocaust survivors were very troubled by it; the younger babyboomer sabres (Israeli born) thought it was the perfect response to the Iranian "contest). The winner donated part of the proceeds to a Israeli human rights organization that represents palestinian rights.

http://www.boomka.org/

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DJ Happy

Maybe because the US defended the Mohammed cartoons under the guise of free speech while berating the Holocaust ones? It doesn't matter what their wording was - they were for one and against the other. That's hypocrisy.

My post was made in response to those who said that the US's immediate response to the Holocaust cartoons was better than the Islamic world's response to the Mohammed cartoons. But thank you for treating us all to a little dose of sarcasm. It's something we rarely see from you, so it's refreshing on the rare occasions it does occur. I don't know about everyone else, but I get so tired of seeing you debate points rationally and logically.

biznatch

I think the reason for the cartoon is rather ridiculous, and making a contest to see who would the be best at making fun of the Holocaust is downright retarded.
However, I'm not sure as to where I stand on the Western countries' response. I myself think it's intentionally hurtful towards those that are victims of the holocaust, either directly or indirectly. But it's true that if they defended the Danish cartoon's right to be published based on free speech, then anything is fair game.
What I admire is the "Israeli Anti-Semitic Cartoon Contest," which I think is the right way to go. If anyone's able to take off some of the tension, it's the "victims" themselves, and I applaud their gesture and spirit.

thingstodo

I think it's great that there is a tit-for-tat with the political cartoons. What better way to deal with the original situation than to come up with your own cartoons. That's sure a non-violent method and also allows other people to get the emotions on the table in a more positive manner. I also like the way it uses free speach.

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hiredgun

Now that is a truly interesting and thoughtful way to respond to the Iranian cartoons. I find it much more appealing than either a) accusations of anti-Semitism or b) self-righteous championing of free speech.

Strange Famous

ummm... one of us is surely missing the point. How many Jewish people have you seen marching the streets demandin the artists are beheaded?

To say "this is a ridiculous and offensive stunt" is both truthful and reasonable. To call and actively threaten death to anyone involved... now that would be crazy.

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harbo

I don't really see what's the big deal here - those aren't in any way different from the stuff you see in ordinary newspapers each day. Well ok, maybe not in American newspapers, considering the PC (especially when it comes to Jews) agenda they all have regardless of political affiliation. But take a look at The Times or Le Monde or something Asian.

PredeconInferno

I'm not certain how the cartoonist could possibly think this is an acceptable retaliation to the cartoon that some danish guy drew about them.

He drew a picture of their prophet with a bomb-turban insinuating that all muslims were terrorists (I believe that was the cartoon).

This Iranian cartoonist is poking fun at a group of people who were persecuted and destroyed for thousands of years, targeted for genocide, and alienated because we tried to make up for what the world has done to them.

I'm really confused as to how anyone could think that's an acceptable response either way. Both the cartoons drawn were in extremely bad taste, but those people have the right to say whatever they want. If these two countries want to admit to having racial ignorance and bigotry fine for them, they just lose credibility to real people.

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Xazy

How many were killed in the holacaust? Over 11 million, 6 million Jewish and over 5 million Catholic's, gypsies, homosexuals, ...

Sorry does not seem cartoon worthy to me. I can talk about a lot of things, but those numbers speak for themselves.

How many riots did you see because of these cartoons?

alansmithee

To be perfectly honest, I think a lot of the cartoons on the Iranian site make good points. Holocaust denial is something I find ridiculous, but a good many of those cartoons made what I find to be a good point-the (western) world's guilt over the holocaust has given Israel a lot more leeway than other countries recieve. I remember watching the interview that 60 minutes had with the Iranian president. He made the point that if it was the west that felt guilty over their treatment of the Jewish people, why did not they set aside land for a Jewish nation? Why was not part of Germany made to be a home for Jews, a refuge in the center of Europe (which has long had a great deal of anti-semitism).

Sticky

Do you find this a good point?

Was it the Holocaust that brought about the idea of a Jewish homeland?

The world began accepting the idea of a Jewish homeland prior to the holocaust. The 1917 Balfour declaration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour...ration%2C_1917) stated the position, agreed at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a Jewish "national home" in Palestine.

Who set aside the land for the Jewish Nation, was it not the "West"?
The Brittish set aside land that they controlled.

The Jewish people made no claim to land in Germany, that is why Germany was not considered. Whether one agrees with the Jewish peoples claim to the land, their claim is the reason it is that piece of land and no other.

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alansmithee

However, it was 30 years, a holocaust, and a UN declaration later that established Israel, not some vague cabinet declaration in the UK. Many people make claims on land, but to me it seems western guilt had a large part in making this claim enforced, to the detriment of the palestinians.

loquitur

This is actually supposed to be about cartoons, not the Israel-Arab dispute.

But I think the notion that Israel gets away with more than other countries because of western guilt about the holocaust is facially absurd. Israel gets away with a lot less than countries that have done a lot worse, including the ones who yell most loudly about Israel, like Syria, Saudia Arabia and that ilk. Or you can look at China with Tibet or the Burmese government, or Sudan or Chechnya or any of dozens of examples of massive killing and ethnic cleansing that pretty much goes unremarked compared to the scrutiny Israel gets. In fact, no country gets as much shit for doing as little as Israel does. You can argue about whether any particular thing Israel is doing is right or not - certainly there can be disagreement about that - but this idea that Israel gets a free pass is nutso. About 1/3 of the UN's resolutions are addressed to condeming Israel, fercrissakes.

Anyway, back to discussions of cartoons.