ngdawg

You forgot 'NASCAR' lovers, Babe. Everyone knows we're just a bunch of sibling-loving, beer-swigging dumb hicks.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

roachboy

i find people who talk on their cellphones while driving to be a much greater danger to others than are those who smoke.
but curiously, you never seem to find even threads here that pose questions about talking on cellphones while driving are "good people" and whether they imagine that they contravene their own sense of "goodness" by doing what they do.

maybe the question in the op is so wrongheaded that responding to it doesn't get anyone anywhere.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

politicophile

A moderator should know better than to misrepresent a member's standpoint by putting out a piece of flamebait like this. This is very unimpressive.

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Cynthetiq

read roachboy's post above yours. It expresses exactly what my post is trying to convey. the futility of stating that someone's behavior is somehow rooted into "good" or "bad" via quite a simple statement as what you've made.

It was your generalization, not mine.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Gatorade Frost

Don't forget "Mac user"

__________________
I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well."
Emo Philips

snowy

I don't like smoking. I smoked all through high school and quit upon graduation; I didn't want to take the habit to college with me. I can't stand the smell of cigarette smoke; it makes me want to vomit. That said, I don't really care to be around cigarette smoke. Sometimes I am, simply because I have friends who smoke, but generally I avoid it, and choose to live in a town where smoking is not allowed in bars and restaurants.

People aren't bad if they're smokers. They're bad if they're obnoxious about it, and don't take other people into consideration.

As for the issue of ETS around children, one of the biggest illnesses we haven't mentioned is asthma. ETS causes asthma in children who have not previously exhibited symptoms (http://www.epa.gov/smokefree/healtheffects.html) and it makes it worse for children who already have asthma. Having worked with children with asthma, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. There are so many illnesses that children are at increased risk for if exposed to ETS...so don't do it.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

ngdawg

How is changing one word of your post 'flamebait'? To insinuate that any portion of the human race is worse than yourself simply by one behavior is more inflammatory than anything anyone else has dished out so far.
To arbitrarily put yourself on a higher plane simply because YOU don't do something is absurd, egotistical and beyond pompous. And extremely unimpressive.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

high_jinx

This post, in it's entirety, was my favorite response in defense to my OP. Looking back at how i started the thread, i think it might have been a little too black/white, but i'm glad of that in the end because i got some truly zealous responses.

Most of the responses i got in this thread have a tone... it ranges from indignant to mocking. the vibe i pick up, as much as you can from text anyway, are sentiments like, "how dare you tell me what to do?!" or "stfu, its not that big a deal!" A lot of others just twisted the context or semantics of my question.

My purpose in creating this thread is not to admonish however, it's more of an introspective question. i just honestly want to know how smokers internally justify their habits when the facts are out there and they have to know that they are having an extremely negative impact on everyone their around or living with.

On a minor level.... would you fart in a crowded elevator or car, and not pinch it off, because releasing the gas would feel good, even though a lot of people in the elevator would be trying to get over the experience all day?

On a major level.... if you had an extremely bad and possibly dangerous version of the flu or whooping cough would you work with food in a cafeteria?

These are similar situations, although there is a degree of seperation between them and smoking obviously.

Also, a few people posed the point to me that they always ask before they light up...

I'm here to tell you as a non smoker, thats usually a no win for me. If i know the person asking and am to have any further relations with them, and ESPECIALLY if they are a friend of mine... there's no way i can say, "yeah i mind" or "can you wait till we get back to the house" to them. If i do then I'm the bad person all of a sudden because smokers as a rule have the same sanctimonious/defensive attitude displayed in this thread. Any objection on my part will negatively impact our friendship/relationship.

Because I think THEY are a good person, i hold my tongue. i let them get away with stinking me up and harming my health. The most i do is try to nudge them or help them if they express a desire or timetable to quit.

So all in all, like a point i made at the end of my OP that was largely ignored, I'm for your rights and liberties. i don't want to take away your freedom to smoke. I just wanted to know if you ever felt bad or guilty about what your subjecting us "innocents" to.

For the record, to me and a large part of society, it's a very big deal. and imo, it's a pain in the ass to find a place completely devoid of people to do what your doing to yourself, or to wait until such a place is available to you, but in the end it would be worth it to the greater good and to your psyche.

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

Glory's Sun

ok first off, I'm not interested in some psycho babble bullshit term for how I defended my actions. The OP was curious as to whether I feel guilty for what I supposedly do to "innocents". Short answer.. nope not one bit. I have the right to smoke... in designated areas. If you walk into a restaraunt and go through the smoking section for whatever reason..then it's your fault for being subjected to the second hand smoke. End of story. Now if I'm outside and I'm smoking I will try to do it without people around sometimes that isn't possible. So if someone asks me nicely if I could move or put my smoke out.. sure I can do that.. but if you act like an ass then I'll act like one back and put the smoke square in your face.

The fact that people want to say that smoking is wrong and makes someone a worse person is ridiculous. I say you're dumb for eating well done steak, I say you're stupid for putting a loud exhaust on your car. It doesn't make me think you're not a good person though. Yada Yada, I understand the whole point of subjecting others to our harmful smoke. Like I said, I'm tired of breathing in your car fumes. Shut your fucking car off.

I'm committing a slow-suicide? Who isn't?? Seriously. Everyone dies. You ever drink? Guess what you just helped kill yourself a little bit. Deal with it.

The whole point here is that while most smokers understand that alot of people don't want to be exposed; we will (for the most part) be polite about our actions. This psuedo witch hunt however, puts those who are a part of it on the same level as us asshole bad people with cigs in our mouths.

Willravel

I know of several people who have died from lung cancer but never picked up a smoke in their life. They did live with smokers for extended periods of time. In my mind, based on evidence that I can see myself, second hand smoke is very dangrous in addition to being tremendously inconsiderate. Back when I did smoke, I did everything I could not to inconvenience people with my smoke. I always smoked outside, I always smoked away from entrances and exits to buildings, and I avoided smoking in public places like beaches or parks. I occasionally smoked in my car, but I had an effective air spray that neutralized the smell for future passangers. I didn't smoke around anyone except other people who were smoking.

Any smoker who disregards the safety and comfort of people around them is an asshole. Just ask Dennis Leary. Smoking where it is not legal or welcomed is asking for trouble.

Cynthetiq

after reading gucci's post, I just...woah... how ironic.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

frogza

I do not like the smell of smoke, I do not like its impact on my health. I think smoking is a horrible habit/addiction. That said, there are very few individual acts that I think can make a person a "bad person". Smoking is certainly not one of them. If a person were to blow smoke directly in my face as soon as they found out that I hate cigerette smoke, then I might be tempted to call them a bad person. Smoking around others, at most, could be called a selfish act. I even feel a recoil from making that call, maybe I'm too interested in judging my own behavior to take time to judge someone elses.

high_jinx

again, i want to dispense with the semantics of "bad person". its too much an utlitmatum i suppose. I'd really love a response to my post #48, even though it's a bit of a read

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

roachboy

i sometimes wish there was a way to drive a stake into the heart of a thread.
this is one of them.

i cannot imagine anyone caring about the sanctimonious lather folk who are offended at one level of another by the idea of smoking can work themselves into. it does not function to persuade anyone who sokes to reconsider their actions; it says nothing about the issues that may be involved with second-hand smoke; it says nothing about anything, frankly--but it does allow folk who choose for whatever curious reason to route their dislike of cigarette smoke through the tedious language of morality to vent.

perhaps it would be better to pose such questions as a kind of kvetch thread for people who hate cigarette smoke. there is obviously no serious intention of engendering a dialogue. the frame of the op--despite the lame protestations concerning "respect for rights"--doesnt allow for it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cynthetiq

So let me understand this... you don't speak up for your own rights because it may negatively impact your "standing" with a person? You won't suggest they don't smoke in your house or car becuase they may "feel bad" or it may jeopardize your friendship in some way??

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

high_jinx

i don't think much about my "standing" with people, but yes, i remain mum because of my concern that it would jeopardize my friendship.

as an example, i have a friend who is constantly smoking in his car, including when we're going anywhere together and i'm in there with him. I can tell its part of his daily m.o. to always have a cigarette going when he's driving anywhere. I can also tell that if i objected to him doing it, that he'd be uncomfortable and obsess about it the whole time we were on the road together. It's to the point that I make a strong bid to be the one driving when we go somewhere, but he insists on driving so he can smoke.

i know he'd abstain if i asked for my sake because he's a considerate guy, but then i would be a seed for some serious psychological distress on his part because of his addiction and routine. and even though i don't think it's unreasonable to request him waiting till we're not driving, i can see on some level him thinking that im infringing on his rights in his car, or on an instinctual animal level that im causing him pain in the course of his day.

i personally make a decision to hold back my objections because i don't want the psychological static it would cause on his end... i decide that i'm more capable of letting it go and living with it.

and roachboy, i again apologize for my op being too slippery to have a dialogue upon it. i respectfully withdraw my "good person" analogy. And i would love a thread along these same lines about people driving and talking on their cell phones at the same time... i don't understand that either.

I do notice however, you've peppered 4 responses among this thread about it being so much drivel.... if thats the case, why do you torture yourself by continually coming back?

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

Halx

ng, you ARE a bad person for liking Nascar.

I think the heart of the question that this thread asks has nothing to do with smoking, but rather the human mind. We consider ourselves many things and grant ourselves absolution from our actions that counter this self-image. Even if one is a smoker and takes all necessary precautions to protect others in order to fulfill their will to be a good person, I'm willing to bet there is going to be another guilty pleasure that shoots their self-image to hell. They'll write it off, though, because they're good everywhere else.

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You have found this post informative.
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high_jinx

thank you hal! you da man, man!

i really do want to know what, if anything, crosses someone's mind when they are lighting up. are they guilty? do they feel like they're getting away with something? are they conscious of their effect on the people around them or is all that swept under the rug? is the only thing on their mind at that point the satisfaction they are getting from their cigarette?

thats the dialogue im hoping for.... with a nice fork in the road that has come up about it being difficult to object to people's smoking if you have any kind of relationship w/ them and smokers feelings on THAT.

has a friend or coworker objected to you smoking round them? have you ever been upset about it or let it affect your relationship with them? are you less inclined to spend time or energy on or with them because you know their might be a roadblock to your smoking habits?

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

Lady Sage

Before I go to someones house I educate myself on their house rules. I also educate others on MY house rules. I pay the mortgage therefore I am.

Designated smoking areas are as follows: outside if the weather is nice otherwise you may use the basement and the basement only. Pot is strictly prohibited due to my severe allergy to the odor.

Agree with me or not my friends and relatives adhere to the house rules. If I find that they begin to partake of something at their house that I do not approve of, I am free to leave. No one forces me to be somewhere I do not wish to be.

ngdawg

And that goes both ways. Someone who insists another is bad for that habit, put themselves on a pedestal that could easily be chopped down because of something THEY do others think is bad.
Seeing balls of mucus on sidewalks grosses me out; it's disgusting as is hearing and seeing them being coughed there. It's inconsiderate, but I have no idea if that person is a bad person, just rude.
Seeing hanging bellies of flesh in sweatpants is disgusting. Are they bad people?
I don't grant absolution for my habits, but they are MY habits and I do my best not to infringe them on others. But the self-righteous attitudes of some comes with the thought that they have every right to infringe those attitudes on others.
Making generalized assumptions about a person's heart and mind because they smoke or weigh half a ton or snap their gum, whatever, is sanctimonious bullshit.
And if they don't want to get to know the person, not the action, I say, their loss.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

high_jinx

The thing is i didn't call anyone bad, i asked about the if and how your self image stayed good in the storm of something that you know is proven to be bad to subject others to.

i don't want to deal with absolutes here and i wish that everyone would get away from my admittedly mistaken "bad person" terminology and more into their own mindset. I've tried to illustrate this with examples from my life and friends i'm around that do smoke. I don't sit in judgement on smokers and i don't shut down my chances of getting to know them, especially if i continually see the good in them.

your spitting on the sidewalk analogy only works so far, ngdawg, and thats as far as the fact that smoking can be partially to blame for someone else having an uncomfortable or off day from being around a smoker.

seeing spit on the sidewalk or someone doing it does not, however, have a harmful effect on their health or a decent chance to cause them illness or death.

Most bad habits fall into the spitting category, not the smoking one.

So that's why i want to know how aware smokers are of what they are doing every day and how they feel about it.

Your answer has no bearing on what kind of person you are and whether i'd like to share a beer with you and have a chat sometime.

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

Willravel

A habit is an auquired behavior pattern. Spitting is a habit. Chewing your nails is a habit. Watching CSI is a habit. Smoking is an addiction. Addiction goes beyond repetition of a practice and into an enslavement to habit and the development of an irresistable need. Not only that, but a someone having a habit of chewing gum or biting their nails in the presence of other people can't trigger an asthma attack. I have bad asthma, and when I am around smoke, it triggers my asthma. I am not alone in this. My brother is the same way. Several of my friends also have this. Second hand smoke is not harmless, and to suggest that it is only an inconvenience exemplifies the meaning of this thread.

ratbastid

If I had to choose between somebody blowing cigarette smoke in my face or somebody blowing high-handed self-righteous morality in my face, I'd take the smoke.

Intolerence is a greater immorality than smoking. It's not even on the same scale.

Sultana

This is what we call enabling. Don't be an enabler. It makes you a bad person. ;P
No, but seriously. You're preventing your friend from experiencing the consequenses of his actions. He might surprise you. Or he might be asked to refrain from smoking by someone else very important down the road, and he's never had to do it 'cause you've created an artifical protective environment...yeah, it's a little rediculous, and I'm using hyperbole to emphasize the point. If you're not going to be honest (uh oh, bad person alert) and tell him you don't want him to when he asks, at least tell him why you don't feel that you could ask him to refrain.

You've admitted (gracefully and repeatedly) that your OP wasn't worded well. But people continue to focus on that rather inflamitory (great pun!) section, and I think that roachboy's input is reflecting *on* that focus.

And I'd have to agree with roachboy that just because your provocactive and poorly-worded OP flushed some "zealots" out of the bushes does not in any way justify...a provocactive and poorly-worded OP.

Not trying to jump your case or anything, but I don't see value or merit in singling out roachboy.

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"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Cynthetiq

Thank you that was what I was grasping at but couldn't seem to formulate.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

SirLance

Yes, but no tobacco products would be involved!

As far as weight gain is concerned, vigorous sex burns 1.4 calories per minute!

I'm glad I didn't encounter the illness, but I've had to battle my weight like I never did before. I've heard of people who experienced these symptons, though. Check in with your doc, they can probably give you something to alleviate that.

__________________
DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

uncle phil

what he said...

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

Gilda

I don't think that smoking around other adults is in any way related to being or not being a good person. Foolish, sure, but we all have foolish things we do from time to time.

Where and when you do it may be an indication of how polite you are in regards to this behavior.

I don't smoke, and I don't permit smoking in my home or my car. At work, we have a no smoking inside buildings or within a certain distance of entryways, so it never comes up.

When someone asks me if I mind if they smoke, my answeris always "Yes." The last time this happened, the man in question lit up anyway and then tried to claim I'd given him permissiion.

When I'm at an outdoor gathering or another's home I try to avoid smoking areas, but it isn't my place to set policy someplace where I'm not the one in charge. If I don't like the policy, I'm free to go elsewhere.

I mostly get to avoid places people smoke, so it isn't an issue most of the time.

I'd call smoking around others who dislike it generally impolite, though this can be mitigated for the most part by asking others if they mind, though this should be more than a fomality and be accompanied by a willingness to actually refrain if that's the response, unlike the guy who asked me then lit up anyway.

Whether you're a good person involves something much more than smoking etiquette.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Ustwo

When I go out in public and there are people smoking, it directly lowers my quality of life. Its no different than extra loud music, or not bathing for a long period of time.

The problem with smoking isn't that it will kill you, that I don't care about, or that it will kill me, I'm not worried about second hand smoke, its that its an obnoxious habbit that you can not escape without leaving the area. If you have ugly hair or are looking at porn, drinking alcohol, or whatever, it doesn't effect what I am doing, but smoking can't be avoided unless you bring your own air supply.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Oh....oh God....I can't belive I'm going to say this....after all the flaming and accpetance of toture and belitteling and polarization......

I agree with Ustwo.

I'm going to go shower then read a liberal book like Exception to the Rulers or Confessions of an Economic Hitman.

ratbastid

I know the feeling. Thing is: outside politics, the guy totally has his head on straight. Why he has to be such a wack-job radical right-winger, I'll never understand.

ngdawg

Yes but a wack-job radical right-winger who swings...guess that makes him a winger-swinger? Swinger-winger? Bet Ann Coulter does too...

Sir Lance: Uh, yea...I know

High-jinx: I would think that, if the person IS your friend, they'd be more than accommodating and if not, then cross them off the Christmas card list. Friends simply don't act rudely in that respect-although farting between good buds is usually quite acceptable.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

TexanAvenger

Clearly you've not been around some of my friends... I'm not prone to crying, save for their expulsions.

Ustwo

Don't confuse the religious right with the libertarian right. A majority of swingers are republicans by survey anyways

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ratbastid

That's true, I saw that survey too.

MSD

A well-established, long-time member shuld know better than to represent his own viewpoint by putting out a piece of flamebait like the post that started this.
What if you had to deal with a piar of persistent, cigar-smoking Jehova's Witnesses?
I'm going to guess that a fair number of swingers are in an economic class that favors Republican economic policies rather than Republican social policies.

Ustwo

Which is exactly what I said

Just to keep this on topic, very few of them smoke.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ratbastid

My head would explode. And then'd need to explain to the people in the next house they visited why they had bits of ratbastid on them.

And, to keep keeping this on-topic: my neck-stump would be smoking.

analog

No, the "respond in kind" is people not being very happy with you that you basically started off the whole thread telling us how morally superior you are, and how we are lesser persons if we don't agree with you and your definition of morality.

You can't toss out an opening like that and expect people to not care that you just called us all immoral and inferior.

I'm not in this argument, i'm just giving you answers to your "why am I being attacked" questions. Offering a reasoned explanation (jesus, where have I written this before) is not attacking you, nor is it siding with those you do perceive as attacking you. It's just explaining why what you said has caused what others are saying. While I don't agree with the way some have articulated their points, i'm not "with" either side.

xepherys

Are you actually being serious? I think that some of the studies that say second hand smoke is WORSE for you than primary smoke is probably incorrect, and the labs may have been setup very badly, but it's definitely, within any logical viewpoint, not false. Second hand smoke IS bad for people, the environment, animals, children, et cetera, et cetera. *shrug*

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