Carno

Holy shit, this subject really gets peoples' panties in a bunch.

Chill the fuck out everyone; you're all acting like a bunch of babies.

__________________
http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

KungFuGuy

after graduating college, i am now back at home. both of my parents are smokers, probably 1 pack a day for each of them, and they both smoke in the house. they can not or refuse to understand why it bothers me so much. it's like living in an ash-tray.

i guess i could make the excuse for them that they were just brought up in a different time, when smoking away into your toddler's face was socially acceptable and normal.

i realized i'm biased. i hate ciggarettes. i've never tried one. i would probably feel physically ill if i tried. a student film director wanted to fire me when i refused. (hooray for student films...). I hate the agenda that movies have in making cigarrettes look cool. because they don't!

when i jump out of my bias I realize that smokers are not bad people, jsut that a lot of them are incredibly inconsiderate (like most of the human race). when I jump back in, I wish they'd die so as to remove themselves from the gene pool. I've opted out of dating women because they were smokers.

FoolThemAll

Except that he did no such thing. As he explained already, in a way consistent with his original post. Your analysis is incorrect.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Martian

This thread shows a classic bait and response that I see constantly (and am occasionally victim to). The reasoning is quite simple - smokers are pariahs. That's not just a word we bat around for fun. I can't claim to know what it's like the world over, but I know that I am already greatly inconvenienced by my habit. Here in my part of the world, we can't smoke in bars or restaurants, nor can we smoke in any workplaces. We are entitled to smoke outside or in our cars, as well as in our own homes. Despite all of this, most of the smokers I know are considerate enough to take reasonable steps in keeping their smoke out of the way of non-smokers, myself included.

Note the operative word there, though. We will take reasonable steps. Smoking outdoors and at a respectful distance from public entrances or exits is a reasonable step. If I stay ten feet away from the doors of public buildings and smoke outside, there's no need for you to be subjected to my cigarette smoke. If I smoke in my home or car, there's no reason for you to be subjected to my smoke. Granted, I will refrain from smoking in my home or car if it's likely to bother you, but not everyone will do that and I can see the reasoning behind that attitude. If you don't like it, don't ride with that person or visit them.

You're entitled to your opinion of my habits. You may think smoking is a sign of the anti-christ and you're allowed to. Hell, think worse of me for it if you want to. I won't be losing any sleep. However, I am taking my reasonable precautions not to subject you to my tobacco smoke. If you subject yourself to it and then get on my case about it, don't be surprised if I react negatively.

In a more direct answer to the op, I don't think about that sort of thing every time a light a cigarette. I have my reasons for smoking. I don't expect everyone to agree with them and I will respect people's right to their own opinion, but thinking of smoking as making me a bad person? No. I have other things to keep me up at night.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

SirLance

'course, m'love. But, you will only quit when you are ready. I know, I quit for my ex like 12 times. Never took. I just put 'em down when I was done.

You'll do the same.

Besides, I'll always have the hots for you whether you smoke or not!

Ah well, our love shall ever be unrequited, but at least we can enjoy it!

__________________
DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

Ch'i

People can smoke around me; that's fine. I just excercise my right to carry a squirt gun.

hiredgun

Okay, wow. This thread has been through a lot.

My contribution is merely this: smoking (unlike race, sex, homosexuality, and other strawmen that have been raised) is for the most part a deliberate lifestyle choice. Choices (the result of the ways in which we use our free will) are the basis upon which we make judgments about people.

Therefore, as an individual choice, smoking is at the very least a legitimate subject for debate. The question of whether or not this particular practice is moral should not be dismissed out of hand, though we may have differing answers to that question.

mandy

firstly, smoking where other smokers smoke does not make me a bad person. secondly, if you are with people who smoking...move if you dont like it.
thirdly, what happens when you go out to a club or whatever, people smoke there all the time unless its a policy that everyone should smoke outside...what the hec then, why not move the "club" outside too. leave you all by your lonesome in a dark, no music filled club to enjoy yourself...ALONE.

__________________
The Imagination equips us to see a reality we have yet to create

FoolThemAll

Private businesses should definitely not be forced into a non-smoking policy. Their business, their decision. Conversely, businesses shouldn't be forced into allowing smoke on their property... but then, I don't really hear many calls for that.

Public buildings funded by taxpayer money, that's a bit different. My inclination is to say this: let the taxpayers decide. Put it to a vote. And while I'm the odd case of a non-smoker who enjoys secondhand smoke, I'd probably vote for smoking sections or no smoking at all in such places. Oftentimes, people in public buildings are there by necessity or near-necessity. It's a matter of courtesy.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Cynthetiq

I would agree with that, since some companies ask you to NOT smoke even on your free time as a completely smoker free workplace since it results in lower insurance premiums. Conversely a company should be allowed to pay whatever premiums they must in order to have the abililty to have smokers as employees and have a smoke filled environment.

The problem is that workers fall under OSHA rules and cigarette smoking falls under that apparently.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Ustwo

Having had the joy of working the smoking section a number of times, I can't say I cry over this.

I realize this is being used as an EXCUSE for many of the smoking ban laws, no one really cares that much about their waiter, but I would have welcomed it at the time I was waiting tables.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

billege

I have never in my life, held someone down or locked them in a closed room in which I'm smoking.

Given the fact that I respect most societal conventions, I consider my self "considerate" when I do smoke. Which, thankfully, is a rare occasion these days. However, when I smoked regularly and when i do now it's always:

Where smoking is allowed.
Usually outside.
In a place where no one is chained up and forced to breathe in my second-hand.

Occasionally, I'm with someone who has made the choice to remain physically near me while I'm smoking even though they themselves do not smoke. In this case, I respect thier choice and allow them to remain with me, even though they've chosen to be in the same area as my smoke. In return, I try to keep the smoke away from them as much as reasonably possible.

Thus, as I have never forced anyone to inhale my secondhand somke, nor have I ever lit up in an area where it's not allowed, I think I can rest easy with my consideration of how "good" I am.

Also, desptie the apparent wishes of a large portion of American society, your morals or lack thereof (as may be the case) isn't my problem.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

Ustwo

Yes yes, pollute the local environment so the only way to avoid it is to leave. Very good, makes me wish I could sit next to you and fart repeatedly to see how you like it.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Baraka_Guru

arsenic, nickel, chromium, cadmium, lead, polonium-210, vinyl chloride, formaldehyde, benz(a)anthracene, benzo[b]fouoranthene, benzo[j]fluoranthene, benzo[k]fluoranthene, benzo[a]pyrene, chrysene, dibenz[a,h]anthracene, dibenzo[a,I]pyrene, dibenzo[a,l]pyrene, indeno [1,2,3-c,d]pyrene, 5-methylchrysene, quinoline, dibenz[a,h]acridine, dibenz[a,j]acridine, 7H-dibenzo[c,g]carbazole, N-nitrosodimethylamine, N-nitrosoethylmethylamine, N-nitrosodiethylamine, N-snitrosopyrrolidine, N-nitrosodimethylamine, N’-nitrosonornicotine, 4-(methylnitrosamino)-1-(3-pyridyl)-1-butanone, N’-nitrosoanabasine, N-nitrosomorpholine, 2-toluidine, 2-naphthylamine, 4-aminobiphenyl, acetaldehyde, crotonaldehyde, benzene, acrylonitrile, 1,1-dimethylhydrazine, 2-nitropropane, ethylcarbamate, hydrazine

If you engage in an activity that includes breathing this in, you might want to keep it to yourself.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

bartgroks

Automotive fumes are really bad for your health too. No study biased or not has ever even tried to refute that. CO will kill you whether its your car or not. Does that mean that anyone who drives around pedestrians is also a bad person?

__________________
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by Google

pocon1

nothing to say

Willravel

Carbon Monoxide is dangerous. It also comes from vehicles that are necessary for getting you from point a to point b. Cigaretts serve no purpous besides recreation.

Do you see the difference?

Baraka_Guru

This is an excellent point, and where it gets more complex. I think the automotive and energy industries have the responsibility to clean up. The technology can be developed. Do it already. And drivers should know that there's a difference between an SUV and an compact when it comes to emissions. If you're driving an SUV solely for status reasons, then you aren't being considerate towards the environment. No one needs to drive a 345hp Cadillac Escalade to haul 180lbs. of cargo.

The tobacco industry should do the same. There's gotta be a way to get all that shit into your system without any exhaust fumes.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

shesus

Geesh..after reading all this I think I'm going to quit smoking. Crap, I just said I'm a smoker...I'm a horrible person now in the eyes of some. Yes, I'm stupid, I'm weak and dammit I smoke cigarettes. Wait..no I have a Master's degree, I am pretty tough, and I have an addiction. Don't judge me.

Seriously, I know that I'm slowly killing myself. I've thought about this and came to the conclusion that everything is going to kill me. You know, the spinach I had for dinner last week might kill me.

I don't want to kill anyone else. When I wake up in the morning, I don't think 'Hey, I'm going to smoke at the bus stop and try to kill 3 people this week with my second hand smoke.' I don't smoke at the bus stop...in fact I try to avoid smoking around people all together.

My mom got lung cancer...never smoked in her life. My dad smoked 2 packs a day...no cancer. Moral of the story..well pick one
a) Second hand smoke is more dangerous
b) Cancer is going to get you no matter what

I agree that anyone can be made out to be a horrible person through a vice or choice. Smoking is bad and I'll quit...but I think I'll have one more right now. All this talk of cigarettes has given me a craving. And then I promise I'm done...until tomorrow anyway.

__________________
Whatever did happen to your soul?
I heard you sold it

Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

ngdawg

I pick mine up(even at the beach), but it seems that since smoking has been banned, even before going into a nonsmoking area, the ashbuckets have disappeared. There's a WTF? if ever there was one....if we can't smoke inside anymore, wouldn't the owners of these properties put something outside so their entrances don't look so crappy with butts?
What really gets my blood boiling is when people dump their car ashtrays onto the pavement....come on, slobs...do it at home.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

shesus

You know what....I was thinking about this and read through it again. The feeling that I'm getting is that the non-smokers (not all of you) but some of you are self-righteous. I know that ratbastid said that previously, but I think it needs said again. If people can call smokers weak, stupid, and little shit litterers, then I think you need to know that maybe, just maybe the people who make these comments are a bit overdramatic.

And I'm sorry to say this...maybe I am a horrible person, but oh well....
I would and have blown smoke in the face of people like that. Even including my best friend when she got on her high-horse.
I do always ask if it's ok to have a smoke...before I take it out. I hate when people are like "Do you mind if I *lighter clicks* smoke?"
I also make it a point not to smoke in public places unless others are smoking, like a bar, or around people in cramped outdoor areas. But when someone who comes over next to me and then complains about how I'm going to kill them...well those people are fair game. Why did you walk over to me when you can see I'm smoking?

I'm not really taking the comments seriously because it's not worth it. I am not trying to start a fight. I mentioned in my previous post that there is a valid concern. But be realistic about it and don't get on us at TFP. We're not in the same room with you when we smoke. In fact, to prove this point,....at this very moment I'm blowing smoke at my computer monitor...you're all going to die now...bwahahahahaha!!!!!!

__________________
Whatever did happen to your soul?
I heard you sold it

Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

snowy

I love smokers who are, at the least, considerate.

Last night I went out with my best friend and his family. His parents are divorced and have been for almost 10 years or so, so to say the least it was an interesting gathering to begin with. We were sitting in the patio area of a nice pizza place here in town, and his dad just lit up without asking us, which to me was not okay. Then his dad got chewed out by one of the workers at the pizza place because you're not supposed to smoke within 10 feet of a doorway in our town. The worker handled the situation so poorly that both my best friend are going to go back and lodge complaints against him. Just because he's smoking isn't an excuse to be rude, but the same goes--if you're going to smoke in my airspace, at least ask first.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

pig

after watching this thread and all its sister threads running around on the boards lately, it seems to me that perhaps this is a distinction of semantics and a case of rampant oversimplification.

you can be a good person, without being the *best* person you can be. most people i know who smoke will admit that they probably would be healthier, and would save a lot of money, if they didn't smoke. does smoking adversely affect your health? you betcha. does it make you "bad" person? too simple of an analysis. good and bad, in what context? would it make you a bad sprinter? probably so. would it make you a bad teacher. i don't really see much evidence for that.

so if you consider a person as the holistic sum of all his/her components, then being a smoker would probably count as a negative against a person, in certain situations. some of these situations are personal, some of them are social. but that doesn't mean a person isn't still a "good" person; it just means that they have a habit which may be disadvantageous.

if we're going to oversimplify and and go holistic: i would rather have a smoker, who is nice and courteous - than a non-smoker who is a sociopathic killer, for instance. i'd say the first is a good person who has a potentially bad quality, the latter is a bad person with a marginally redeeming quality.

edit: i realized that my post was more focussed on the individual aspects of being a smoker, rather than the social. i assert that the same analysis applies. its too simple of an analysis, in subjective terms, to label someone a "bad" person because they smoke around others. "smoke around others" is highly contextual, and again - it might be a negative trait, but its not the persons only trait. a person can still be good and have annoying habits; otherwise, we're stuck with a definition of "The Good," (meaning the Best) which of course no one will attain.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Marvelous Marv

You DO know that cigarette smoke contains CO, right?

And methane.



"Mind if I smoke?" "No, mind if I FART?"

/Marv
Secure in his flatulinity.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

KeyserSoze

I'm a smoker and figure if i'm going to DIE then it's going to be on my terms...oh by the way, "How ya all been? Long time no post)

I do my best to not smoke around others that don't like it and I always ask if it bothers them, if they say yes I don't light up. I never smoke around a child...EVER!!!

Now what I don't like is being treated like shit because I smoke especially from those who think they have all the answers for everyone elses issues yet they can't pay attention long enough to understand that there are bigger issues in this worlld besides smokers that are far more dangerous.

Sorry, I will BE GOING THE FUCK OFF as this subject pisses me off...ESPECIALLY when they are going to vote ANOTHER TAX on my little habit.

Let's see now, Oh..I remember about five to six years ago here in California when Rob (MEATHEAD)Reiner came up with a 50 cent tax on a pack to help with day cares, after school programs, and money to help the school systems out here.............BIG FUCKING JOKE!! All they do is tax the smokers, start another group of beauracrats that pay themselves large salaries and then MAYBE if there is money left over they may help the kids. They haven't did jack shit for the kids with that money.

So now they are going to raise the taxes to the tune of 2.50 a pack out here once again if it's voted on and this money is once again to go to some bullshit program to make fat cats wealthy and the people don't get shit as usual oh and the best part is the hospitals are part of it.........LMFAO!!

So tax a smoker because the illegals can't pay for their health care

I smoke so there for I pay more taxes then most if you include the money on each pack I smoke.

So what are you all going to do once all the smokers quit and they come after your asses to make up for that lost tax revenue?

How about we tax chocolate for the fat fucks that blame their weight on McDonalds, Burger King, Oreos, Snikers..etc..etc?

Lets tax alcohol some more for the misery it brings upon some families when their loved one becomes an alcoholic? I know this for a fact as I was one of those alcoholics...comming up on 12 FUCKING GREAT YEARS in 5 days!!

Now...some will say and they always do "But when you get sick and are dying in the hospital I have to pay for you" Well, if I have HEALTH INSURANCE which I do how the fuck are you paying for me??? You're not so STFU!!

I look at life this way and it makes it a whole lot easier.

God is the Director and we are the Actors and until he says "CUT" on my life then I'm going to enjoy a smoke while I can, I am going to help those less fortunate then myself to pay back for all those years I was a piece of shit drunk. I am going to do my best to be a wonderful person to all of those who cross my path, well that is until they piss me the fuck off!

Do this for those of you who don't smoke and see which hurts your lungs more:

Stand on the busiest corner in your city for four hours and BREATH DEEP during that time standing there as the cars, buses, and trucks go by then go home and see how you feel, how your clothes smell and what comes out of your lungs when you hock a good loogy.


Now, hang around a smoker all day and I mean for 24 hours and see how you feel, smell, etc.

Also remember that there are some who hmmmmmm, how do we put this nicely? Fuck it lets be blunt, there are some people who smoke, who don't brush their teeth, chew gum, suck a mint, and don't wash their ass or clothes and these are the ones that smell like an ashtray, but then again that is THEIR RIGHT!!

You see God gave each one of us the greatest gift of all, but most of us overlook that gift and insist on forcing our own way of thinkinig upon others who really just want to live our life in peace. But we still overlook that little GIFT that we alll take for granted...FREEWILL!!!

Anyhooo....I have to vent a tad bit as when the smoking issue comes up it pisses me the fuck off, if you have not guessed that by now.

Oh...I would also like to add that my best friends 17 year old daughter was killed a month ago by a drunk driver who was going the wrong way on the freeway, not someone smoking a marlboro.

So do I consider myself a good person? YES!! I pay for two peoples stay in the rehab I got sober in each month, I help those less fortunate then myself, I do my best to treat all those who are in my life with respect, dignity..that is unless they are just real fuckityfuckfucks, I have a great work ethic, I don't lie, cheat or steal, I don't pretend to be someone I am not and best of all I tell it like it is which means I don't sugar coat jack shit.

So i'll keep on smoking, I have great insurance that I pay dearly for, and in closing if you ever see me hit by a car, a bus, having a heart attack and I am reaching for my chest help me as I am reaching for a smoke to get one last puff before I DIE!!!

God Bless,

KS

__________________
THERE IS NO KEYSER SOZE!!

1010011010

You appear to have reading comprehension problems to have made this comment after helpfully linking to tu quoque.
Non-smokers need to admit that they dislike smokers and smoking because they find it to be a smelly and disgusting habit. Many (most?) smokers will agree with them between coughing fits.
The demonization of second-hand smoke is similar to homeopathy insofar as it relates to smoking in well-ventilated spaces which are only momentarily inhabited.

It's arguably inconsiderate to smoke near primary building accesses as it forces everyone using the door to be subjected to the unpleasant odors you're producing. Same with not warning people that you smoke before giving them a ride in your car, or asking if the folks around you mind before you light up.

Smoking is bad for smokers. No one, and certainly not somone who has been smoking for a while, is going to argue about that. Someone else smoking as you walk past them does not endanger your health... unless you make some snide remark and they kick the shit out of you and take your wallet.

__________________
Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions

genuinegirly

hehe. Yeah. that seems like a funny study. But it got me thinking. There are a significant number of chemistry students that smoke here at Berkeley. You'd think they'd know better. I chalk it up to stress, since it's a super stressful course of study.

I am not bothered by someone smoking a cigarette in my presence. As long as we're outdoors, and I'm not planning on kissing them, it really doesn't matter.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

krwlz

The problem with this entire fucking thread is the original question. The OP is giving us two two unrelated statements and asking us to pick and either or, and its slightly offensive.

What I have to say? Yea, live in a city for a year, thats probably worse for your lungs that living in the countryside with a smoker.

if you are outside, and bitching about the smoke hurting you, bullshit, you do NOT smoke half a cig for each one of mine. Theres no way, its too diluted in the MOVING outside air.

So basically? Stuff it.

And sorry dude, you need new friends. I always ask, and many many a friend has asked me not to. Did it hurt our relationship? Fuck no, I just waited until we got somewhere more convenient.