if you think of yourself as a good person... how can you smoke around others? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

high_jinx · 09-19-2006, 11:17 AM

this ? has been on my mind lately. there are just so many reasons to not smoke where there are other people around.

From the relatively small ones, like the offensive odors that stick to hair and clothes like glue all day...

to the major one's, like the fact that it's now proven that secondhand smoke is harmful to health...

I don't deny anyone's personal freedom and liberty, and i have my own vices. but how can you think you're living a good life if you are subjecting others to your vice and they aren't getting any enjoyment from it?

tecoyah · 09-19-2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by high_jinx

this ? has been on my mind lately. there are just so many reasons to not smoke where there are other people around.

From the relatively small ones, like the offensive odors that stick to hair and clothes like glue all day...

to the major one's, like the fact that it's now proven that secondhand smoke is harmful to health...

I don't deny anyone's personal freedom and liberty, and i have my own vices. but how can you think you're living a good life if you are subjecting others to your vice and they aren't getting any enjoyment from it?

I dont know....maybe I'm too busy going out of my way to help, setting my needs on the backburner,and generally being nice to others to seriously consider my smoking a major offense.

Still, I dont smoke in my house...and generally try to sit downwind where needed.

j8ear · 09-19-2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

Still, I dont smoke in my house...and generally try to sit downwind where needed.

This is how I roll also.

Regardless, this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by high_jinx

...like the fact that it's now proven that secondhand smoke is harmful to health...

In spite of all the supporting research and peer reviewed scientific studies you have provided, is patently false.

-bear

Glory's Sun · 09-19-2006, 12:22 PM

yeah and how can anyone in the airline business consider themselves good as well. I mean there's jet fuel falling on us constantly. Oh and don't get me started on the car industry. I have to breathe those fumes all damn day!!

If I know a person doesn't like smoke then I don't smoke. Now if they are sitting in a smoking section or we are outside then it's fair game I think.

Crack · 09-19-2006, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by high_jinx

if you are subjecting others to your vice and they aren't getting any enjoyment from it?

share your smoke with them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by some comic I heard once

Woman: Excuse me!
Man Smoking: Yes?
Woman: Are you aware that for every two of those cigerettes you smoke, I smoke what amounts to one, just from the second hand smoke? What do you think about that?
Man Smoking: Well, I think you owe me $1.90 for about a half a pack!

Willravel · 09-19-2006, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

In spite of all the supporting research and peer reviewed scientific studies you have provided, is patently false.

-bear

I beg your pardon? So smoking can kill you and give you cancer, but breathing in the same smoke minus a filter from a foot away won't? I'd have to question that scientific study. Were the scientists smokers?

I used to smoke. I got sick a lot. People around me hated it. My gf hated it. I stopped.

Bill O'Rights · 09-19-2006, 12:38 PM

You are, of course...correct. All of the good that I have managed to accomplish on this planet is absolutely negated by the fact that I...*gasp*...smoke.

I suppose that I should just accept the fact that I am a morally bankrupt, vile, reprehensible fiend, that should be kept as far away from children and little puppies as is possible.

Perhaps...I should even take to wearing a large scarlet letter "S". Oh...no need..."good" people can smell me coming in time to scurry to the other side of the street.

SirLance · 09-19-2006, 12:41 PM

Hara Kiri for Bill!

I am the worst kind of smoker. I am an ex-smoker.

I find the smell nauseating and so I don't go places where people smoke, and when people smoke in places where it isn't allowed (like the common areas at the baseball stadium, for example) I speak up.

If you want to smoke, go ahead, but restrict your use to places that allow it.

Gatorade Frost · 09-19-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

In spite of all the supporting research and peer reviewed scientific studies you have provided, is patently false.

-bear

Thank you for the evidence you provided.

I suspect the American Lung Association might be, you know, a tad biased, but here's a fact sheet they provided:

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Lung Association

Secondhand smoke, also know as environmental tobacco smoke (ETS), is a mixture of the smoke given off by the burning end of a cigarette, pipe or cigar and the smoke exhaled from the lungs of smokers. It is involuntarily inhaled by nonsmokers, lingers in the air hours after cigarettes have been extinguished and can cause or exacerbate a wide range of adverse health effects, including cancer, respiratory infections, and asthma.1

*
Secondhand smoke has been classified by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) as a known cause of cancer in humans (Group A carcinogen).2
*
Secondhand smoke exposure causes disease and premature death in children and adults who do not smoke. Secondhand smoke contains hundreds of chemicals known to be toxic or carcinogenic, including formaldehyde, benzene, vinyl chloride, arsenic ammonia and hydrogen cyanide.3
*
Secondhand smoke causes approximately 3,400 lung cancer deaths and 22,700-69,600 heart disease deaths in adult nonsmokers in the United States each year.4
*
A study found that nonsmokers exposed to environmental smoke were 25 percent more likely to have coronary heart diseases compared to nonsmokers not exposed to smoke.5
*
Nonsmokers exposed to secondhand smoke at work are at increased risk for adverse health effects. Levels of ETS in restaurants and bars were found to be 2 to 5 times higher than in residences with smokers and 2 to 6 times higher than in office workplaces.6
*
Since 1999, 70 percent of the U.S. workforce worked under a smoke-free policy, ranging from 83.9 percent in Utah to 48.7 percent in Nevada.7 Workplace productivity was increased and absenteeism was decreased among former smokers compared with current smokers.8
*
Currently, 14 states including California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, Massachusetts, Montana, New Jersey Rhode Island, Utah, Vermont, and Washington, as well as the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico, have already passed strong smoke-free air laws.9
*
As of 2005, nine smoke-free states prohibit smoking in almost all workplaces, including restaurants and bars (CA, CT, DE, ME, MA, NY, RI, VT and WA).10
*
Secondhand smoke is especially harmful to young children. Secondhand smoke is responsible for between 150,000 and 300,000 lower respiratory tract infections in infants and children under 18 months of age, resulting in between 7,500 and 15,000 hospitalizations each year, and causes 1,900 to 2,700 sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) deaths in the United States annually.11
*
Secondhand smoke exposure may cause buildup of fluid in the middle ear, resulting in 700,000 to 1.6 million physician office visits per year.12 Secondhand smoke can also aggravate symptoms in 400,000 to 1,000,000 children with asthma.13
*
In the United States, 21 million, or 35 percent of, children live in homes where residents or visitors smoke in the home on a regular basis.14 Approximately 50-75 percent of children in the United States have detectable levels of cotinine, the breakdown product of nicotine in the blood.15
*
New research indicates that private research conducted by cigarette company Philip Morris in the 1980s showed that secondhand smoke was highly toxic, yet the company suppressed the finding during the next two decades.16
*
The current Surgeon General's Report concluded that scientific evidence indicates that there is no risk-free level of exposure to second hand smoke. Short exposures to second hand smoke can cause blood platelets to become stickier, damage the lining of blood vessels, decrease coronary flow velocity reserves, and reduce heart rate variability, potentially increasing the risk of heart attack.17

For more information on secondhand smoke, please review the Tobacco Morbidity and Mortality Trend Report as well as our Lung Disease Data publication in the Data and Statistics section of our website, or call the American Lung Association at 1-800-LUNG-USA (1-800-586-4872).

Sources:
1. California Environmental Protection Agency. Health Effects of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke. June 2005.
2. Ibid.
3. The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: 6 Major Conclusions of the Surgeon General Report. A Report of the Surgeon General, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 2006; Available at: http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/librar...ctsheet6.html: Accessed on 7/7/06.
4. California Environmental Protection Agency. Health Effects of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke. June 2005.
5. He, J.; Vupputuri, S.; Allen, K.; et al. Passive Smoking and the Risk of Coronary Heart Disease-A Meta-Analysis of Epidemiologic Studies. New England Journal of Medicine 1999; 340: 920-6.
6. U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Report on Carcinogens, Tenth Edition 2002. National Toxicology Program.
7. Shopland, D. Smoke-Free Workplace Coverage. Journal of Occupational and Environmental Medicine. 2001; 43(8): 680-686.
8. Halpern, M.T.; Shikiar, R.; Rentz, A.M.; Khan, Z.M. Impact of Smoking Status on Workplace Absenteeism and Productivity. Tobacco Control 2001; 10: 233-238.
9. The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: Secondhand Smoke Exposure in the Workplace. A Report of the Surgeon General, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 2006; Available at: http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/librar...ctsheet5.html: Accessed on 7/7/06.
10. American Lung Association, State of Tobacco Control: 2005.
11. California Environmental Protection Agency. Health Effects of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke. June 2005.
12. California Environmental Protection Agency. Health Effects of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke. September 1997.
13. California Environmental Protection Agency. Health Effects of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke. June 2005.
14. Schuster, MA, Franke T, Pham CB. Smoking Patterns of Household Members and Visitors in Homes with Children in United States. Archives of Pediatric Adolescent Medicine. Vol. 156, 2002: 1094-1100.
15. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. America's Children and the Environment: Measures of Contaminants, Body Burdens, and Illnesses. Second Edition. February 2003
16. Diethelm PA, Rielle JC, McKee M. The Whole Truth and Nothing but the Truth? The Research Philip Morris Did Not Want You to See. Lancet. Vol. 364 No. 9446, 2004.
17. The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: 6 Major Conclusions of the Surgeon General Report. A Report of the Surgeon General, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 2006; Available at: http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/librar...ctsheet6.html: Accessed on 7/7/06.

*Racial and ethnic minority terminology reflects those terms used by the Centers For Disease Control.

stevie667 · 09-19-2006, 01:30 PM

Any smoke is bad for you, full stop, doesn't matter where its coming from.

Gilda · 09-19-2006, 02:38 PM

if you think of yourself as a good person... how can you smoke around others?

Faulty premise: I don't think of myself as a good person. I am off the hook, baby!

Gilda

spectre · 09-19-2006, 02:40 PM

I don't smoke and I don't like being around it. That said, I don't deny anyone from smoking around me if they're considerate about it. If you're going to be sitting very close to me: ask, make sure you not blowing the smoke into my face, and don't leave a mess with the ash and cigarette butts. Most people do this all, so there's rarely an issue about it.

Gatorade Frost · 09-19-2006, 02:50 PM

From personal experience whenever I'm smoking, most people are wanting to smoke with me. Generally the only bad person I have to do is say "Hell no, I paid ten bucks for this bowl. Get your own."

uncle phil · 09-19-2006, 03:45 PM

/me smoked two packs a day for over forty years...quit last summer, june 29 to be exact...i don't care who does what around me...all's i know is i quit...

Sage · 09-19-2006, 03:51 PM

Wow... what a can of worms...

Personally, I find that if I know you smoke, my personal opnion of you has dropped. It's addictive, it will kill you... and you're a stupid enough fuck to smoke in the first place. Good job, now go shoot some heroin while you're at it.

/end rant

Sorry. I really, seriously, tremendously HATE cigarette smoke. I do understand that if I go to a club where people smoke I have to be around it, and I deal with it in my own way. However, when it's raining outside, and I'm going to class, I don't want to have to walk through a cloud of smoke because all the stupid smokers are too stupid to carry umbrellas. I'm glad I'm out of school and don't have to deal with that. I have dreams that one day the entire US will be like California where you are only allowed to smoke in your house and that's if the whole thing is hermetically sealed so no smoke gets out.

If you don't like my reaction to your smoke, I'll just go around vomiting in your general direction and see how YOU like it.

1010011010 · 09-19-2006, 04:48 PM

On the scale of things Americans do that are harmful to other people (directly and indirectly) smoking is pretty far down. And lets not even begin on the scale of things that potentially annoy others.

Look into some of the more recent data and reanalyses of old data on the effects of secondhand smoke. Nobody is going to be claiming it's beneficial to anyone's health, but given the crap that in the air most places, the effect is not observable in public situations.

Unless you're talking about something like a member of your carpool smoking, or a roomate smoking while you're sitting on the couch watching TV together... your argument is basically "I dislike the smell."

The same argument can be made about people who wear perfume or go to the gym & don't shower immediately afterwards or eat beans & cabbage for lunch. And if you're in sitations where you're spending a significant amount of time in proximity to smokers, you probably know them well enough to ask them to modify.

Carno · 09-19-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

This is how I roll also.

Regardless, this:

In spite of all the supporting research and peer reviewed scientific studies you have provided, is patently false.

-bear

Whatever dude. Do some research.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

yeah and how can anyone in the airline business consider themselves good as well. I mean there's jet fuel falling on us constantly.

There is??

roachboy · 09-19-2006, 05:28 PM

i dont understand the question in the op.
i mean, i understand what the words say, but not the logic behind it.
it seems to me like one of those false problems.

Impetuous1 · 09-19-2006, 05:49 PM

I hate smoking and don't hang with smokers either. I don't understand it at all. But I look at it this way. If you want to slowly kill yourself, go for it! Though I do have to say; I do not patronize businesses or areas where people smoke. I have some problems with my lungs and exposure to smoke, of any kind, obviously does not help.

A couple of weeks ago, I went to a casino for my birthday. It was a casino I had been to previously and I had been there during the week. At that time , the place was not very busy. When I went back during the weekend, it was packed, and I discovered that smoking was allowed. I discovered this the hard way, after some smokers sat next to the slot machine I was sitting at. My solution was to move to another slot. However, I will not be going to that casino again since apparently they allow smoking. My point is, to the OP, if you don't want to be around it, don't. Hopefully the smoker will get the hint. However, I don't consider them bad people. Just annoying or inconsiderate at best.

Cynthetiq · 09-19-2006, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

if you think of yourself as a good person... how can you smoke around others?

Faulty premise: I don't think of myself as a good person. I am off the hook, baby!

Gilda

I'm going to tag onto this, most of us think we are good people and yet we do things that are not nice to others... go figure. from cut people off in lines, to being outright disrespectful...

Apokx · 09-19-2006, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

This is how I roll also.

Regardless, this:

In spite of all the supporting research and peer reviewed scientific studies you have provided, is patently false.

-bear

Yes all that research and countless hours of hardwork are entirely fabricated by the Government to control the masses, right?

Anyone with common sense could realize that lighting someone on fire, and then sticking it into their face and taking a breath is a bad idea.I guess all that coughing is a sign of good health.

As far as this thread goes.No one should be forced to experience something like second-hand smoke.If you wanna smoke, go for it, as long as it doesent affect me.When you start interfering with others rights(like you know, the right to better health) then it becomes a problem.

Smoking doesent make someone bad, and not smoking doesent make someone good.Not caring where your smoke goes makes you a bit of a jerk, though.

TexanAvenger · 09-19-2006, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

if you think of yourself as a good person... how can you smoke around others?

Faulty premise: I don't think of myself as a good person. I am off the hook, baby!

Gilda

You just freakin' made my day. Maybe a day and half.

Seriously though, I don't consider myself a particularly good person. Sure, I've done pretty good things and try to be a fairly nice person, but on the whole I think I fall somewhere between "okay" and "shady."

But I, like a lot of smokers, smoke downwind of the non-smokers or otherwise try to keep it away from them. We're humans too, and don't like to cause discomfort to those around us. Sticking a cylindrical tube in your mouth and lighting it doesn't make you suddenly callous and unfeeling. Or rather, it does it to your lungs, not your compassion.

I know cigarette smoke is bad for you, and so try to not wrap its smoky tendrils around the "innocent." Anybody that tells you otherwise is ignorant of current health topics. Hell, I told off a woman this weekend who was complaining vociferously about somebody telling her to try and keep the smoke out of their face because they felt it was bad for them. I've no doubt that in spite of that, she's going to remain an asshole. The rest of us smokers that aren't like that hate those people too, for the record.

But for you to pose a divide between being a smoker and being a good person is not only ridiculous, it's offensive. We smoke in public because we're people and public is where people go. Most of us try to keep it away from non-smokers because we're aware that you don't like it. We're not a different breed of unhealthy, callous, angry, unfeeling mutants. Most of us aren't trying to play the social pariah, we just don't want to be labelled as outright "bad people."

ngdawg · 09-19-2006, 07:51 PM

I smoke. I quit twice. I got fat. People died (well, not really, but they could have, given my mood).
Yea, I'm a pariah. Hopelessly addicted. And the healthiest person in my family, which is comprised entirely of people who think I'm disgusting.
I love nonsmokers who rant and rave and make ridiculous comparisons. You think we're that stupid, eh? At 15, yea...at 50, we're hooked. Think it's easy to just put'em down forever? I did that-twice. Plan on doing it again. Did you know that nicotine is more addictive than heroin? Did you know it's twice as hard for a woman to quit than a man? Or that it's harder to quit menthols than non? Yea, we're stupid.

States make all kinds of laws-some even tried to outlaw smoking in one's own car! Your 78 Volare can spew all kinds of black smoke down the freeway, but don't smoke in it....
And how many smoke haters marinate in cologne? That's always good for an ironic chuckle....While your 'choking' because I'm smoking, I'm having an allergy attack because of your Chanel.
None of us is an angel; none of us only thinks of others as we go about our business. And smokers are not bad people. I strongly suggest that those of you so adamantly against these little sticks of horror get off your high horses...

SirLance · 09-19-2006, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Did you know it's twice as hard for a woman to quit than a man?

I had no idea! And, you are twice the woman of any other woman, so it's 4 times as hard for you!

I have heard, however, that wild sex with an ex-green beret completely dissipates all withdrawl symptoms!

I quit because I got incredibly ill. And while smoking, I could actually FEEL myself get sicker with each drag. I had been a smoker for about 15 years, two packs a day.

The funny thing is, everyone told me the first week would be hardest. For me, it was a breeze. But when I got out to 30 days, I got basically homicidal for about a week. Then it was over, and I've never looked back. My experience was completely at odds with everything I'd ever heard or read about quitting smoking.

I haven't had a cigarette in 7 years, nor the desire for one. But I'll tell you, it was damn hard to quit, even though I could feel it making me sick!

ngdawg · 09-19-2006, 08:46 PM

Ironically, every time I quit, I got really ill. The first time, I was smoke free for over 2 years, but I was a sickly basket case. The second time I quit, I'd lost my voice for 3 weeks (made Kathleen Turner sound like Elmo in comparison).
The fears of what will probably transpire(the weight gain, the getting sick) are part of why I can't get past the point I have-down from over 2.5 to 1.5 packs a day.
As for that wild sex-either way, during or after, there'd be some smoking going on!!

monkeysugar · 09-19-2006, 09:10 PM

Sweet! Another "Smokers are the antichrist" thread.
For the record, when I'm smoking, it's done outside, away from people and a bit off the beaten path so if someone is going to be offended/exposed to secondhand smoke they are going to have to go out of their way to do so. At work, we smoke in Designated Smoking Areas that are way the hell away from anything else, we clean up after ourselves, and the area is very clearly marked. If someone wants to get pissy about being exposed to smoke, again they are going to have to go out of their way to do so. I do this for a variety of reasons, but two really stand out for me.
1. I do not want to expose others to secondhand smoke if they are not smokers. (we can be considerate....)
2. I want to enjoy my cigarette, sometimes in the company of others who are also enjoying cigarettes, and be left the hell alone.
I realize that some smokers create a real mess and go completely apeshit when someone asks them not to smoke around them. To let you in on a little secret, most smokers dislike those people even more than you do. They fuck everything up for everyone else.

healer · 09-19-2006, 10:19 PM

Since when does being a smoker make you a bad person? It astounds me how non-smokers can so easily look down on people who do smoke.

SA has pretty standard smoking laws i.e. no smoking indoors unless in a designated smoking zone, anywhere else that's "open-air" - meaning restuarant decks and the like - are fair game. I'm a smoker who can't stand 2nd hand smoke so I take care not to smoke around other people unless they're actively smoking themselves.

As an aside, I'm not your everyday kind of smoker in that I don't "need" it like others do. I've been smoking on and off for about 7 years now and have never needed to quit. A pack lasts me about a week, sometimes more. I consider my smoking to be a choice - not a habit or an addiction. I smoke because I want to and I enjoy it. Not because I'll go off my head if I stop.

Glory's Sun · 09-20-2006, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage

Personally, I find that if I know you smoke, my personal opnion of you has dropped. It's addictive, it will kill you... and you're a stupid enough fuck to smoke in the first place. Good job, now go shoot some heroin while you're at it.

umm wow. First off. I'm not stupid. Letting personal opinion drop just because someone has a habit is pretty shallow imo. To even begin to equate Heroin and Nicotine is pretty silly. Sure we know that nicotine may/can kill us but seriously Heroin?? I dunno I'd have to see some evidence that shows that nicotine is as harmful as Heroin.

I'm so sick of people complaining about smoke outside. Do people really think that walking through a cloud of smoke for oh .. 3 seconds is going to do anything harmful?? There are studies (and I can be corrected here as I don't have time to get the linkage) that show a smoker who smokes a pack or two a day can quit and the lungs will regenerate within a year. Ok. So now do you really think that walking through 3 seconds of smoke did anything other than annoy you? No. You just annoyed me equally by smarting off about me smoking <b>OUTSIDE</b>.

/end rant.

I'm the type of smoker that even if I know someone smokes, I will ask them if it bothers them if I light up. Are all people this polite? Of course not, but like I said before, if it's outside or in a designated area, piss off.

/end other rant.

Ample · 09-20-2006, 05:02 AM

I quit a month or two ago, but while I smoked I never smoked indoors, even in my own house, me smelling like a ashtray was bad enough I didn't want my place to stink of it too. If my kids were with me I wouldn't even smoke in the car. If I go over to my friends how, and have the little ones with me, I don't let her smoke in her house.

Growing up my old man always smoked in the garage, I guess that just rubbed off on to me.

little_tippler · 09-20-2006, 05:12 AM

I don't like smoke and I don't like it when people smoke around me. That said I have plenty of friends and family who smoke. They are not bad people because of it. I still love them anyway. I do wish they'd stop. Everyone has bad habits...

I think the OP was just ranting - maybe next time they'll think twice about posting without thinking things through at all.

I wish smoking on the scale that people smoke nowadays had never happened. Even the people who smoke probably agree, deep down, right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

shakran · 09-20-2006, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

In spite of all the supporting research and peer reviewed scientific studies you have provided, is patently false.

-bear

Sorry, bullshit. I'm not interested in tobacco-industry funded "scientific" studies. They're biased by definition.

Hell just use common sense. Smoke in general is bad for us, even campfire smoke. That's why our eyes sting and we cough when the wind blows the smoke at us.

Now add tar and carcinogens and all sorts of other nasty poisons to the smoke, and you're trying to tell me it's harmless to people breathing it?

Like it or not, when you smoke, you're forcing everyone around you to smoke.

That's why I'm for the rewriting of drug laws in this country. Cigarrettes, cigars, etc totally illegal outside of private homes, but if you want to do lines of cocaine in Applebees, go for it. You're only hurting yourself there, so I really don't care if you do it.

highthief · 09-20-2006, 05:57 AM

It's funny to watch all the smokers get all indignant about this post! Only Gilda seems to have a sense of humour about the whole thing.

I'm an ex-smoker, puffed away for many years, finally quit utilizing a little will power. I don't think smoking around others negates any good thing that person may have done, but it sure is, at the least, impolite, and, at the most, harmful to the health of others. Having said that, I can't recall the last time someone lit up around me without asking first.

politicophile · 09-20-2006, 06:29 AM

Let's start with the tu quoque fallacy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallacy Files

Tu Quoque is a very common fallacy in which one attempts to defend oneself or another from criticism by turning the critique back against the accuser. This is a classic Red Herring since whether the accuser is guilty of the same, or a similar, wrong is irrelevant to the truth of the original charge. However, as a diversionary tactic, Tu Quoque can be very effective, since the accuser is put on the defensive, and frequently feels compelled to defend against the accusation.

Let's at least make an effort to raise the bar above obvious red herrings: I'm talking to you, guccilvr, 1010011010, and ngdawg.

Second, smoking is an extremely stupid thing to do. The reasons are well documented. Look here, for example. Yes, there are a lot of people who began smoking before it was known that smoking had such harmful effects on the human body. But, the surgeon general's warning was added to all cigarette boxes thirty-six years ago! The knowledge has been avaliable to the public for a very long time now. Smokers need to admit that, in addition to killing themselves in one of the very stupidest ways possible, they are harming the health of those around them through the effects of secondhand smoke. Smokers, you are irrational. You are committing a slow suicide. You are failing to respect the well-being of your fellow humans. You've had more than three decades to quit (or to have not started). Your behavior is shameful.

ngdawg · 09-20-2006, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile

Let's start with the tu quoque fallacy.

Let's at least make an effort to raise the bar above obvious red herrings: I'm talking to you, guccilvr, 1010011010, and ngdawg.

Second, smoking is an extremely stupid thing to do. The reasons are well documented. Look here, for example. Yes, there are a lot of people who began smoking before it was known that smoking had such harmful effects on the human body. But, the surgeon general's warning was added to all cigarette boxes thirty-six years ago! The knowledge has been avaliable to the public for a very long time now. Smokers need to admit that, in addition to killing themselves in one of the very stupidest ways possible, they are harming the health of those around them through the effects of secondhand smoke. Smokers, you are irrational. You are committing a slow suicide. You are failing to respect the well-being of your fellow humans. You've had more than three decades to quit (or to have not started). Your behavior is shameful.

Excuse me, but where is there any denial of the effects from the two people you decided to point to?
YOUR behavior is shameful because you put yourself above others. Trust me, you're not omnipotent. Every time you start up your car, every time you splash on cologne, every time you spray bug spray or barbeque a steak, you're just as human as everyone else here and just as callous. Maybe more so, since, as the pariah's, we do tend to ask first before lighting up if someone else is around.
Way back in the stone age, it was common for smokers to smoke ANYWHERE-grocery stores, malls, airports...while not denying the second-hand smoke theory, it would seem to me that there'd be an awful lot more people my age and older dying as a result of these old scenarios.
We know it's a nasty habit, that's been established. What's nastier is this holier than thou attitude that is so pervasive. There but for the grace of God go you. I find it very hard to believe that you or anyone else here feeling so free to insult can be that perfect.

politicophile · 09-20-2006, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Excuse me, but where is there any denial of the effects from the two people you decided to point to?
YOUR behavior is shameful because you put yourself above others. Trust me, you're not omnipotent... I find it very hard to believe that you or anyone else here feeling so free to insult can be that perfect.

I don't have to be perfect to know that what you're doing is wrong. You are a worse person because you smoke. Period.

ShaniFaye · 09-20-2006, 06:52 AM

I think any person that speeds with me in the car (and I mean even 1 mph over the limit) cant call themselves a good person either

people who dont obey traffic laws are worse people too, bet there are a lot of nonsmokers that do that

Toaster126 · 09-20-2006, 07:23 AM

Guess I'll add smoking to the things TFP can't talk about without turing the thread into an abortion.

Dilbert1234567 · 09-20-2006, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Multicenter Case–Control Study of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke and Lung Cancer in Europe

Conclusions: Our results indicate no association between childhood exposure to ETS and lung cancer risk. We did find weak evidence of a dose–response relationship between risk of lung cancer and exposure to spousal and workplace ETS. There was no detectable risk after cessation of exposure.

http://jncicancerspectrum.oxfordjour...onmental%20%22

The report, written by the WHO, says there is no link between child hood exposure to and only a slightly higher chance, 25% more likely for adults who work with a smoke or have a spouse as a smoker, however, they way the calculate it is a total farce, 1:80,000 of people exposed to second hand smoke die from lung cancer, where as 1:100,000 who are not exposed to it die from lung cancer. This is just slightly higher then statistically insignificant.

I hate smoke, it smells horrible, and however, there is no scientific evidence to show a conclusive link between second hand smoking and cancer.

ngdawg · 09-20-2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile

I don't have to be perfect to know that what you're doing is wrong. You are a worse person because you smoke. Period.

Well, guess you told me, eh?

Actually, there are enough people here and elsewhere that think highly enough of me to overlook my shortcomings. It's your loss up there on the pedestal, certainly not mine.
You don't have to be perfect, but you're sure making yourself out to be, a fallacy, to be sure. So tell us, what makes you so omnipotent? What makes YOU the good person, the 'better' person? Obviously, it's not anything like compassion, tolerance, humility...so what IS it?

Cynthetiq · 09-20-2006, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile

I don't have to be perfect to know that what you're doing is wrong. You are a worse person because you smoke. Period.

Interesting to be able to inject morality into anything.

You are a worse person because you [insert thing you don't like here]. Period.

That's pretty cool.

What can I insert into there and not live and let live, imposing my morality and code among others.

Homosexuality
Multiple Sex Partners
Anal Sex
Oral Sex
Bad Thoughts
Vegatarians
Meat Eaters
Sugar Eaters
Wheat Eaters
Hunters
Fishers

wow politicophile, this is cool. Thanks for that sentence. It's going to come in handy one day.

09-19-2006, 11:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
high_jinx Psycho Location: venice beach, ca	if you think of yourself as a good person... how can you smoke around others? this ? has been on my mind lately. there are just so many reasons to not smoke where there are other people around. From the relatively small ones, like the offensive odors that stick to hair and clothes like glue all day... to the major one's, like the fact that it's now proven that secondhand smoke is harmful to health... I don't deny anyone's personal freedom and liberty, and i have my own vices. but how can you think you're living a good life if you are subjecting others to your vice and they aren't getting any enjoyment from it? __________________ -my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

09-19-2006, 12:38 PM	#7 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	You are, of course...correct. All of the good that I have managed to accomplish on this planet is absolutely negated by the fact that I...gasp...smoke. I suppose that I should just accept the fact that I am a morally bankrupt, vile, reprehensible fiend, that should be kept as far away from children and little puppies as is possible. Perhaps...I should even take to wearing a large scarlet letter "S". Oh...no need..."good" people can smell me coming in time to scurry to the other side of the street. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

09-19-2006, 12:41 PM	#8 (permalink)
SirLance Junkie Location: In the middle of the desert.	Hara Kiri for Bill! I am the worst kind of smoker. I am an ex-smoker. I find the smell nauseating and so I don't go places where people smoke, and when people smoke in places where it isn't allowed (like the common areas at the baseball stadium, for example) I speak up. If you want to smoke, go ahead, but restrict your use to places that allow it. __________________ DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

09-19-2006, 01:30 PM	#10 (permalink)
stevie667 Too Awesome for Aardvarks Location: Angloland	Any smoke is bad for you, full stop, doesn't matter where its coming from. __________________ Office hours have changed. Please call during office hours for more information.

09-19-2006, 02:38 PM	#11 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	if you think of yourself as a good person... how can you smoke around others? Faulty premise: I don't think of myself as a good person. I am off the hook, baby! Gilda __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert Last edited by Gilda; 09-19-2006 at 02:54 PM..

09-19-2006, 12:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	yeah and how can anyone in the airline business consider themselves good as well. I mean there's jet fuel falling on us constantly. Oh and don't get me started on the car industry. I have to breathe those fumes all damn day!! If I know a person doesn't like smoke then I don't smoke. Now if they are sitting in a smoking section or we are outside then it's fair game I think.

09-19-2006, 02:40 PM	#12 (permalink)
spectre Junkie	I don't smoke and I don't like being around it. That said, I don't deny anyone from smoking around me if they're considerate about it. If you're going to be sitting very close to me: ask, make sure you not blowing the smoke into my face, and don't leave a mess with the ash and cigarette butts. Most people do this all, so there's rarely an issue about it. __________________ "Fuck these chains No goddamn slave I will be different" ~ Machine Head

09-19-2006, 02:50 PM	#13 (permalink)
Gatorade Frost Rookie	From personal experience whenever I'm smoking, most people are wanting to smoke with me. Generally the only bad person I have to do is say "Hell no, I paid ten bucks for this bowl. Get your own." __________________ I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips

09-19-2006, 03:45 PM	#14 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	/me smoked two packs a day for over forty years...quit last summer, june 29 to be exact...i don't care who does what around me...all's i know is i quit... __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

09-19-2006, 03:51 PM	#15 (permalink)
Sage hoarding all the big girl panties since 2005 Location: North side	Wow... what a can of worms... Personally, I find that if I know you smoke, my personal opnion of you has dropped. It's addictive, it will kill you... and you're a stupid enough fuck to smoke in the first place. Good job, now go shoot some heroin while you're at it. /end rant Sorry. I really, seriously, tremendously HATE cigarette smoke. I do understand that if I go to a club where people smoke I have to be around it, and I deal with it in my own way. However, when it's raining outside, and I'm going to class, I don't want to have to walk through a cloud of smoke because all the stupid smokers are too stupid to carry umbrellas. I'm glad I'm out of school and don't have to deal with that. I have dreams that one day the entire US will be like California where you are only allowed to smoke in your house and that's if the whole thing is hermetically sealed so no smoke gets out. If you don't like my reaction to your smoke, I'll just go around vomiting in your general direction and see how YOU like it. __________________ Sage knows our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's She answers hard acrostics, has a pretty taste for paradox She quotes in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus In conics she can floor peculiarities parabolous -C'hi Last edited by Sage; 09-19-2006 at 03:56 PM..

09-19-2006, 04:48 PM	#16 (permalink)
1010011010 Psycho Location: Virginia Beach, VA	On the scale of things Americans do that are harmful to other people (directly and indirectly) smoking is pretty far down. And lets not even begin on the scale of things that potentially annoy others. Look into some of the more recent data and reanalyses of old data on the effects of secondhand smoke. Nobody is going to be claiming it's beneficial to anyone's health, but given the crap that in the air most places, the effect is not observable in public situations. Unless you're talking about something like a member of your carpool smoking, or a roomate smoking while you're sitting on the couch watching TV together... your argument is basically "I dislike the smell." The same argument can be made about people who wear perfume or go to the gym & don't shower immediately afterwards or eat beans & cabbage for lunch. And if you're in sitations where you're spending a significant amount of time in proximity to smokers, you probably know them well enough to ask them to modify. __________________ *Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions*

09-19-2006, 05:28 PM	#18 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i dont understand the question in the op. i mean, i understand what the words say, but not the logic behind it. it seems to me like one of those false problems. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 09-19-2006 at 06:01 PM..

09-19-2006, 05:49 PM	#19 (permalink)
Impetuous1 Insane Location: Arizona	I hate smoking and don't hang with smokers either. I don't understand it at all. But I look at it this way. If you want to slowly kill yourself, go for it! Though I do have to say; I do not patronize businesses or areas where people smoke. I have some problems with my lungs and exposure to smoke, of any kind, obviously does not help. A couple of weeks ago, I went to a casino for my birthday. It was a casino I had been to previously and I had been there during the week. At that time , the place was not very busy. When I went back during the weekend, it was packed, and I discovered that smoking was allowed. I discovered this the hard way, after some smokers sat next to the slot machine I was sitting at. My solution was to move to another slot. However, I will not be going to that casino again since apparently they allow smoking. My point is, to the OP, if you don't want to be around it, don't. Hopefully the smoker will get the hint. However, I don't consider them bad people. Just annoying or inconsiderate at best.

09-19-2006, 07:51 PM	#23 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	I smoke. I quit twice. I got fat. People died (well, not really, but they could have, given my mood). Yea, I'm a pariah. Hopelessly addicted. And the healthiest person in my family, which is comprised entirely of people who think I'm disgusting. I love nonsmokers who rant and rave and make ridiculous comparisons. You think we're that stupid, eh? At 15, yea...at 50, we're hooked. Think it's easy to just put'em down forever? I did that-twice. Plan on doing it again. Did you know that nicotine is more addictive than heroin? Did you know it's twice as hard for a woman to quit than a man? Or that it's harder to quit menthols than non? Yea, we're stupid. States make all kinds of laws-some even tried to outlaw smoking in one's own car! Your 78 Volare can spew all kinds of black smoke down the freeway, but don't smoke in it.... And how many smoke haters marinate in cologne? That's always good for an ironic chuckle....While your 'choking' because I'm smoking, I'm having an allergy attack because of your Chanel. None of us is an angel; none of us only thinks of others as we go about our business. And smokers are not bad people. I strongly suggest that those of you so adamantly against these little sticks of horror get off your high horses... __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

09-19-2006, 08:46 PM	#25 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	Ironically, every time I quit, I got really ill. The first time, I was smoke free for over 2 years, but I was a sickly basket case. The second time I quit, I'd lost my voice for 3 weeks (made Kathleen Turner sound like Elmo in comparison). The fears of what will probably transpire(the weight gain, the getting sick) are part of why I can't get past the point I have-down from over 2.5 to 1.5 packs a day. As for that wild sex-either way, during or after, there'd be some smoking going on!! __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

09-19-2006, 09:10 PM	#26 (permalink)
monkeysugar I'll be on the veranda, since you're on the cross. Location: Rand McNally's friendliest small town in America. They must have strayed from the dodgy parts...	Sweet! Another "Smokers are the antichrist" thread. For the record, when I'm smoking, it's done outside, away from people and a bit off the beaten path so if someone is going to be offended/exposed to secondhand smoke they are going to have to go out of their way to do so. At work, we smoke in Designated Smoking Areas that are way the hell away from anything else, we clean up after ourselves, and the area is very clearly marked. If someone wants to get pissy about being exposed to smoke, again they are going to have to go out of their way to do so. I do this for a variety of reasons, but two really stand out for me. 1. I do not want to expose others to secondhand smoke if they are not smokers. (we can be considerate....) 2. I want to enjoy my cigarette, sometimes in the company of others who are also enjoying cigarettes, and be left the hell alone. I realize that some smokers create a real mess and go completely apeshit when someone asks them not to smoke around them. To let you in on a little secret, most smokers dislike those people even more than you do. They fuck everything up for everyone else. __________________ I've got the love of my life and a job that I enjoy most of the time. Life is good.

09-20-2006, 05:02 AM	#29 (permalink)
Ample Psycho Location: In your closet	I quit a month or two ago, but while I smoked I never smoked indoors, even in my own house, me smelling like a ashtray was bad enough I didn't want my place to stink of it too. If my kids were with me I wouldn't even smoke in the car. If I go over to my friends how, and have the little ones with me, I don't let her smoke in her house. Growing up my old man always smoked in the garage, I guess that just rubbed off on to me. __________________ Her juju beads are so nice She kissed my third cousin twice Im the king of pomona

09-20-2006, 05:12 AM	#30 (permalink)
little_tippler Leaning against the -Sun- Super Moderator Location: on the other side	I don't like smoke and I don't like it when people smoke around me. That said I have plenty of friends and family who smoke. They are not bad people because of it. I still love them anyway. I do wish they'd stop. Everyone has bad habits... I think the OP was just ranting - maybe next time they'll think twice about posting without thinking things through at all. I wish smoking on the scale that people smoke nowadays had never happened. Even the people who smoke probably agree, deep down, right? Correct me if I'm wrong. __________________ Whether we write or speak or do but look We are ever unapparent. What we are Cannot be transfused into word or book. Our soul from us is infinitely far. However much we give our thoughts the will To be our soul and gesture it abroad, Our hearts are incommunicable still. In what we show ourselves we are ignored. The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged By any skill of thought or trick of seeming. Unto our very selves we are abridged When we would utter to our thought our being. We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams, And each to each other dreams of others' dreams. Fernando Pessoa, 1918

09-20-2006, 05:57 AM	#32 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	It's funny to watch all the smokers get all indignant about this post! Only Gilda seems to have a sense of humour about the whole thing. I'm an ex-smoker, puffed away for many years, finally quit utilizing a little will power. I don't think smoking around others negates any good thing that person may have done, but it sure is, at the least, impolite, and, at the most, harmful to the health of others. Having said that, I can't recall the last time someone lit up around me without asking first. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

09-20-2006, 06:52 AM	#36 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I think any person that speeds with me in the car (and I mean even 1 mph over the limit) cant call themselves a good person either people who dont obey traffic laws are worse people too, bet there are a lot of nonsmokers that do that __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

09-20-2006, 07:23 AM	#37 (permalink)
Toaster126 Extreme moderation Location: Kansas City, yo.	Guess I'll add smoking to the things TFP can't talk about without turing the thread into an abortion. __________________ "The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)