genuinegirly

From: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

What about Israel agreeing to stop firing? While Lebanon is trying to do the right thing by stating that their nation is NOT supporting these crazies, will the violence end?

I don't think it will. I don't know when it could end. I wish that I did. Does anyone have additional insight or thoughts on this matter that have not already been addressed?

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Willravel

I have several reservations aobut both parties in this. If an agreement is reached, at leas tthe agreement that is currently being tables (after Russia was ignored), Israel will ony have to halt 'offensive' violence, while everyone, Hezbollah included, in Lebanon will have to stop all violence.

This is what SHOULD be agreed on: All parties will begin a systematic withdrawl and disarmament aided by UN troops. Leaders chosen to represent each side (Israel and Hezbollah) will appear in front of a world court and answer for their crimes. The world court will decide who is guilty of what and make the necessary ruling and sentencing.

I would hope Hezbollah would be disbanded and it's leadership charged with crimes of terrorism, and Israel would be given more than a slap on the rist (in order words charge the leaders who were unable to show any level of restraint with war crimes).

genuinegirly

willravel -

seems like a rational way of dealing with things.
somehow I doubt it will happen that way. We shall see.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Willravel

Well it would really help in the short term and the long term to start holding organizations and governments accountable for their actions. In the interest of not blowing up the world 1000 times over, there needs to be prescedent in accountability. If Israel and Hezbollah can be heald accountable for their actions, why not anyone? Why not the US? Why not Russia? Why not Rwanda?

I miss being a kid and not knowing about all the horrible stuff that's going on.

Elphaba

gg, I hope the cease fire holds and I can only assume that no agreement of this kind would be made without Israel agreeing as well. If the UN is able to step between the two advisaries, then I believe there is another chance for diplomacy.

I would like to add that I don't think Hezbollah can be reduced to a derogative term such as "crazies". They are Lebanese that consist of both a militant and political arm. I don't deny that their source of funding is likely from Iran and Syria, but I do challenge the belief that their interests are anything other than national. I do not like, nor support their tactics, but painting them as "terrorists" will do nothing to resolve the current problem.

Charlatan

I have heard time and again that if Israel returns Shaaba Farms, Hizbollah will cease it's war on Israel.

They seem adamant on this point.

I say, give them the land back. If they break their agreement to stop their war, then you have a far more just cause on your hands.

__________________
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genuinegirly

Elphaba-
What an informative perspective! I retract my label of "crazies," and diminish it to "nationalist- driven extremists." Still too harsh? maybe... but... i'd consider anyone extreme that is willing to kill over something.

In real-life discussions, I have not heard Hezbollah described as a non-terrorist movement. Yes, it would be logical that Israel would agree to the ceasefire, but this article states that Israel has not yet come to the table.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Menoman

IMO call them whatever you want, I normally call them not very nice words.

Playing the cards of israel 'targeting civilians' , its all a fuckin political war game, hezbolla fires their rockets from civilian locations, obviously israel is going to return fire its only natural, yet they make it out to be the malevolent nature of israel that is the root of civilian deaths. To hell with them.

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dlish

willravel...is hezbollah answerable to the UN war crimes commision? since they are not the leaders of lebanon, can they be answerable in the same way that slobodan milosovic was ?

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hulk

How can people of anything resembling intelligence assume that military action can be performed without civilian deaths? There has not been one significant military conflict in the history of mankind that killed only fighters. Wars cannot be one without one side using excessive force. If you kill only the fighteres, there are thousands of others willing to take their place. You need to remove the structure that supports them, and groups like Hezbollah hide that amongst the population.

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Willravel

This can't be the UN anymore. We've already seeen that they are powerless. Besides, the UN has vested interest in all of it's most powerful members....which makes them untouchable. If the US were to break UN resolutions, no one would or could stop us, including the UN. That makes it essentiaqlly useless in the facet of war. There needs to be an independant world court set up specifically for addressing war crimes; that can prosecute a government, organzation, or even individual.
Watch the news much lately? The reason I ask is because your post sounds a lot like the talking points that Israeli representatives have been giving on the news the past few weeks. The problem is that they are somewhat biased when it comes to the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict. The reality is that Israel is, at this very moment, having cluster bombs delivered from the US. The problem is that an estimated 1000+ Lebanese civilians have died, while less than 50 Israelis have died (including soldiers). The problem is that Israel has smart weapons that can prevent a great deal of collateral damage (as opposed to Hezbollah, that have weapons that basically can't find shit). The problem is that of self control. Israel could have attacked Hezbollah in a way where less Lebanese had to die. What their actions communicate is that they either want Lebanese dead, or hey don't care.

The biggest problem is the black and white thinking. You say, "How can people of anything resembling intelligence assume that military action can be performed without civilian deaths?", which assumes that we (those who are condem Israel's actions) are appauled and shocked that there are any civilian deaths at all. That's simply not true. We all understand that there can and will be collateral damage in war and conflict. It's a terrible thing that we have to live with. Howeve, when are civilian deaths no longer simply collateral damage? Isn't there a line that once crossed moves into murder? If the US were at war with Iraq and we bombed civilian areas with no military presence or strategic significance, would that be (well, since it happened, was it... )collateral damage?

roachboy

the israeli cabinet has approved the cease fire deal but are the army is still operating until tomorrow apparently. we'll see how things unfold.
hopefully, the destruction of lebanon will actually end.

for the life of me, i can't figure out why this thread is framed as it is. hezbollah is a pure demonstration of the self-defeating nature of israeli actions: they are a product of the first invasion of lebanon...they are first and foremost a popular militia, something of a mass political movement--since the beginning, they have changed into more or less the organization that elphaba noted above.

hezbollah is absolutely not what american tv has been telling you it is since the beginning of the israeli action--it is not some iranian proxy, it is not a foreign body inflicted upon lebanon, and it is not a "terrorist" organization.
that assumes the term "terrorist" means something beyond "an organization that the present american administration does not like" of course.

if israel had not invaded lebanon in the 80s, there would be no hezbollah.
and the israeli actions over the past 2 weeks have been great recruiting tools for them.

in the period between the end of the first war and this one, BOTH sides were engaged in routine cross-border harrassment...there is abundant data about this that is readily available.

and if you think about it, a cease fire now serves hezbollah much more clearly than it does israel, from a tactical viewpoint---israeli has not accomplished its stated objectives, its actions have resulted in the needless deaths of hundreds of civilians--the olmert government will undoubtedly pay for this politically.

the only bigger loser in this mess than the olmert government is the bush administration.

i see no reason to speculate yet as to whether this sease fire will hold and morph into anything like a lasting peace yet. but if there are parties whose interests are less than perfectly served by it, and if you think that this relation to the cease-fire will make those parties more likely to break it, then i would think you should be worriying far more about the israelis than hezbollah.
but we'll see.
for myself, i prefer to be cautiously optimistic at the moment.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Warf Rat

I want to be clear with my comments here, but I am very passionate about it, so forgive me if I start to rant.

The give peace a chance, let the world court solve the problem, Isreal should just back off, and everything will be better (please note I don't think that any of you are implying it will solve the problem, but at least make it better). That is a time tested way to ensure that things will conitinue "as is" forever.

Look, the world community said Isreal should retreat from Lebanon, Gaza and the west bank, and all would be better. They left Gaza, and 90% of the west bank, additionally whent to the UN to have the correct border, clearly defined, between themselves and Lebenon. Too what end??

This whole thing started because Isreal was invaded from both the North and the South. THIS MUST BE UNDERSTOOD. None of us would stand for that, if it was our Nation under attack from two fronts, and our soldiers were taken hostage. These are not talking pionts, they are facts.

Isreal is in a struggle for its very existance. You may think that creating the state of Isreal was a mistake and serious poeple can disagree on this point, but it's too late to change that fact now.

What most people understand, is that this is not a fight between Isreal and Hezbollah. Hezbollah is a proxy for Iran, not Syria (Syria is in the pocket of the Mullahs and are not in a position to simply stop taking orders from Iran).

Because of the the wars in Afganistan and Iraq, Iran is attempting to show all middle east states who is the big dog now. If you doubt this, just look at the reation of the middle east leaders during this whole mess. The first reponse from most middle east states was condemnation of Hezbollah and limited support for Isreal. Since then, Isreal has looked frail and unable to deliver a clear defeat to Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon. That said, all middle eastern states are now calling for a cease fire and claiming Isreal must stop its offensive. Why????

It has become clear that Iran can stir the pot where and when they choose, without paying any price. All middle eastern states have something to fear.

Because Isreal is failing to win agianst Hezbollah, clearly and quickly, they know it's time to take sides, and supporting Isreal is no longer an option.
I believe, they supported Isreal in the hope that this war would destroy Helzbollah, thus dealing a major blow the the belief that Iran could do as is pleases whithout fear.

I don't presume to have any answers at this point. Since Isreal did not launch an overwhelming ground invation of souther Lebanon and stop the rockets south of the Litani River in the first days of this mess, there will be no clear way out.

Maybe, all nations who stand against terror wars should go public with the intel thay have showing all weapons, and instructions are coming direcly from Iran. Then the international community can do what Isreal clearly can not. Address Iran, put them on the defensive, for the first time. Then maybe, the moderate middle eastern states, will join the fight against the real enemy here, namely Iran. That would be create, for the first time, a clear message that wars can not be fought through random bombings of civialian targets. If Iran wants to go to war, let them send there army. They will never have the courage to do that and they will loose face in middle eastern politics.

That would be a start.

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powerclown

Curiously, you omit the other 99.999% of the story. Are you not aware of the PLO? Are you not aware that Arafat was doing the exact same thing to Israel in the 70s and 80s, as Nasrallah is doing now? As an historian, it is unfortunate that you do not seem to.

Didn't the UN call for a ceasefire in 1978 under almost exactly the same circumstances as now: that is, the PLO attacking Israeli civilians, Israel entering south Lebanon to stop the attacks, the UN calling for a ceasefire? Wasn't there widespread Syrian intervention in Lebanese politics, and the murder of pro-Lebanese governmental forces, along with a Civil War fomented by PLO guerillas? Weren't there civilian massacres and war crimes at the hands of warring militias inside Lebanon? Doesn't this have any relevance at all to current events?

I agree with you that the ceasefire serves hezbollah more than it does Israel. It gives hezbollah (or another terrorist group like them) the opportunity to fight another day, and it gives the politicians something to appease their constituencies with. In other words, it serves to maintain the status quo.

The way I see it, the biggest losers here are the Israeli and Lebanese civilians who will continue to die because of the ongoing extremist agenda calling for the destruction of Israel.

---

unnecessary.
apologies to roachboy.

Warf Rat

Powerclown, your comments are on the money. Thanks for stepping up.

__________________
A day late, and a dollar short.

Willravel

Why were the Palestinians displaced into Lebanon? Why is there a PLO?
I don't imagine all Hezbollah will agree with the cease fire. Combine that with the stupid wording the UN decided on, namely the ending of offensive military action (which allows for continued defensive action, which can include firing on Lebanon), and you have a cointinued conflict, and the UN still sitting there with their collective thumbs up their asses. If Hezbollah doesn't stop, and they won't, Israel won't stop. They should ahve gone with the reccomendation from Russia.
On that I think we can all agree.
It's sad you'd follow up a great quote like the one about the biggest victims being the civilians of both Lebanon and Israel with a personal attack against roachboy. Your childish words are the same words that I've seen before, right before someone gets banned. Personal attacks are strictly forbidden here on TFP, and you are not exempt from that rule. Why would you choose to write such hatred?


Edit: To be clear, I would have enjoyed having a teacher like roachboy. Too many teachers hide behind curriculums and are somewhat reserved when it comes to teaching their students about the reality of things.

powerclown

Ask King Hussein of Jordan why he carried out Black September, and kicked Arafat out of Jordan.

So it'll be ok if/when hezbollah ignores the UN, but not ok for Israel to defend itself? Why is this?

Not all, apparently.

Yeah, maybe I overreacted, according to the rules of TFP.

I stand by what I said.

If the mods choose to act, I would hope they base their decision on how they judge it among themselves, and not be swayed by a 3rd party/nonmoderator's personal 2 cents.

roachboy

i am not interested in responding to your bizarre personal attack on me, powerclown. i am disappointed by it in that despite the divergences of views so far there had been at least the veneer of respect. nice job in throwing that out the window.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

Ask the League of Nations. The Palestine Mandate was an explicit document regarding Britain's responsibilities and powers of administration in Palestine including "secur[ing] the establishment of the Jewish national home", and "safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine".
So Israel got their state (without the consent of the indegenous former Ottoman population, known as the Palestinians). The real question is: why did the Uk have the authority to remove Palestinians (economically) from their land? Why didn't the Jewish settlers follow existing law, which included that ownership of land and trees on that land were very much different (when purchasing land in the area now known as Israel, you were not purchasing the trees. That's the way it had worked for hundreds of years.)? Why was the immigraation into Palestine allowed to increase so drasticly while racism in Eurpope was on the rise? The US was allowing Jewish people to immigrate at the time. There were other, safer options for immigrints. The WWII happened. Horrible things were done to the Jews by the facists in Europe, as we all know. The UN decided to try and make the establishment of the Israeli state official, and the Arabs in Palestine said no. What happened next? Israel was formed and no arab state was established. Arabs were expected to live peacefully in an Israeli state, and obey Jewish laws, despite the fact that they had their own government and laws preceding outside interference.

The PLO was formed in order to return the region to Palestinian rule, and destroy the Israeli government.
Have you ever seen the Wicker Man? Your strawman is even bigger. I obviously never said that it was okay if the Hezbollah ignored the UN. I am recognizing the fact that they probably won't recognize the UN ruling, and will continue to fight. For the millionth time, I do not support the Hezbollah. I think that they are doing tremendous harm to not only Israel, but Lebanon and Palestine. Just because I'm not an apologist fo the Jewsih people does not mean that I am always against them.
You admit that you broke the rules as if to suggest that you think that makes it okay. You can stand by what you said all you want, but it is still a breach of the rules, which are a contract we all agree on in order to use TFP. If you break the rules of TFP, you invite punitive measures. Why would you do that? Just to try and piss off roachboy? Is it really worth it to you?

If the mods choose to act, it will be based on a number of things, including the input of other members, like myself. The only one that would be to blame for any hypothetical punishment from the mods would be yourself.

Ustwo

They will cease their fire until they feel they are able to do it again.

If you knew any history to the spread of Islam you would know the idea of feigning peace to grow strong and attack your enemies is part of their heritage. It is how Mohammad captured Mecca from the Jews if my Jordanian friend is to be trusted (and a quick googled verified). So they make a false peace to avoid being beaten, and wait for a better opportunity to attack.

Hizbollah does not want peace, they want Israel gone.
(and I didn't read the thread in case this was covered and to prevent me from arguing with terrorist sympathizers)

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Willravel

You didn't read the thread? Like at all?

Hey, whatever works for you!


Getting back to the subject at hand....
We need to get representative from both sides to sit down. Yes, that hasn't worked in the long term before, but Edison tried to make the carbon fillament light bulb over a thousand times before he got it right. Since there really are no viable alternatives to the conflict, I still say our best bet is to have the leadership sit down and talk it out. At the very least we might be able to get a REAL cease fire out of it. I know what everyone's going to say: "Hezbollah wants Isreal destroyed". So? Who's to say that there really is no chance for peace? Who can say without a shadow of a doubt that Hezbollah can't be reasoned with at all?

Warf Rat

What I seem to be inable to understand, is why so few people see the forrest from the trees.

Suicide bombing and terror campaigns, are new to world history. Why don't more poeple see this.

The true battle, is between those who choose to have their side represented by oppressed poeple, who can be easily persuaded to do desperate things (like blow themselves up). The true leaders of this struggle sit peacefully in an emabasy in Syria or Iran, protected from any real danger.

This is a clash of civilizations, and if not truely understood, all will loose.

Be honest with yourself, when a suicide bomber blows himself up in Isreal, do you really pay attention any more???????? It has become run of the mill.

If we don't fight this war with all the strength we have. How long before bombings like the one on 7/7 in England, are no longer worth our attention. Wake up!!! Please, the way our children and granchildren live is at stake. Make no mistake about it.

We, and the world have to stand up, and say together this will not continue.
Until we are ready to cross any boarder and break any treaty, to find the source of terror and kill it, we will all live in Isreal soon.

__________________
A day late, and a dollar short.

Willravel

What an amazing thing to say. So now it's easy to make someone blow themself up? Maybe Palestinians wake up one morning and say, "Hmmm, today I think I'll go to Safeway and blow myself up."? No way, Jose. A few extreemists choose to make the ultimate violent sacrafice as a last resort.
According to whome? Who provided you with intelligence that the leadership is in Syria or Iran? Did you get it in a report from the CIA, or did you hear it on Fox News?

Ustwo

Years of brainwashing from childhood on. Even their childrens TV talks about the martyrs and commiting massacre. Its the modern equivalent of the Hitler Youth. When you are trained to hate and murder from childhood its what you do as young adults.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...ianChildAbuse/

I know it won't mean anything to you Will but perhaps others can learn a bit from that slideshow.

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Warf Rat

OK lets deal with the Palestinians for a moment. Who lives in refugee camps for more than 40 years? Answer, nobody. Why do they live in refugee camps? Answer, the PLO and all other relevant parties wanted it that way. All the world sent money and diplomatic envoys to help, Arafat pocketed that money and intentionally oppressed those poeple. Extremists do blow themselves up, but so do other who have been conditioned over decades to believe that it is the only way to strike out at thier oppressors, even if they are wrong about the source of their oppression.
There are not now, and there has not been, one Muslum nation willing to help these people. Even if you accept that Isreal is wrong and the lands were unlawfully occupied. Who has helped the Palastinians more than the Isrealies?? No other nation employs and houses more Palastinians than Isreal.

Did Jordan ever once offer land for these opressed people? Did Sadam, who claimed, thier plight justified their actions and the actions of Hamas? Did Lebanon, Syria, Iran, or any other nation besides the US do anyting tangible to help these people? The answer is no.

I will not address your attemp to disagree with me, by saying I get my information from any news source, or group.

My opinions are my own, and I am capable of being wrong, without the help of Fox or CNN.

My central point has been, and will continue to be. When are we going to be honest with ourselves about the nature of the fight.
I have indicated, that I think the war the US has chosen to engage in is part of the problem. However, we are there now.
My earlier point of Iran tying to step up now, speaks directly to that fact.

My belief about where the people who call the shots now are located is based on logic. We know Nasrallah will not show his face anywhere, until he feels safe. His alliance with Syria and Iran is unchallanged by anyone.
Where do you think he is? Carrying a rocket launcher in southern Lebanon. No chance. He is where he knows he can't be reached without broadening the war, maybe Syria, maybe Iran, hell, maybe Pakistan. That's not the point. The point is they all claim to have the best interest of the oppressed, at the heart of thier actions. Well, if they cared about the palastinians, then they would have helped them become a prosperous state, when they were given thier independence.

The Palastinians are not the cause, or the solution to this problem.

The only way out, is to show unrelenting force, and a willingness to go anywhere, until they start acting like human beings. If not, we will suffer through generations of attacts on non-miliary targets in the name of the oppressed people of the middle east.

Just my opinion, and again, I reserve the wright to be wrong, without being accused of being a mouthpiece for anyone but myself.

__________________
A day late, and a dollar short.

roachboy

warf rat--how exactly is your pseudo-history of the israel-palestinian-regional conflict(s) relevant to the question of whether you do or do not think the cease fire agreement will either be implement or will hold?

and how is your "colonialism is good--it gives the natives jobs" line helpful? all it really shows is that you havent looked into conditions in gaza or in the west bank--you seem to have no idea what you are defending. the only possible defense of the occupation is predicated on refusing to look at the facts of the matter and on refusing to consider the consequences of those facts.

consider for a minute the kind of political and social conditions that would have to obtain for anyone to consider strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing themselves up. think about it. i know that it is easier to indulge in some facile racism (o those muslims are crazy blah blah blah) rather than think, but try for a minute to put yourself in such a position and imagine what your world would have to be like for you to make a decision like that. of course to do that, you have to grant that palestinians are human beings like yourself, every bit as rational as yourself. judging from the tone of your posts above, i am not sure whether you can carry out such a thought experiment--but it is worth doing nonetheless.

what i posted earlier concerning hezbollah is empirically the case: since the conventions of gd appear to be that one simply announces one's opinion and doesn't burden other members with information that they either have to read or feel bad about not reading (and then blame you for having posted it), i'll refer you to the lengthy politics threads on this topic which have not been limited by the same conventions. or do a simple search.

none of this has anything to do with the question of whether the ceasefire agreed upon within the unsc will be implemented and whether it will hold if it is.

what it does have to do with is conflicting understandings of the underlying causes of conflict since 1967. in this, i see the policies of the israeli right as primarily responsible. this is not to say israel as a whole--that would be absurd--it is only in the united states that the politics of the israeli right are conflated with that of israel as a whole. and even that does not hold up under even the slightest scrutiny--read he'aetz, even for a couple days, and the idea that the israeli right IS israeli opinion will melt away.

opposing the policies of the israeli right has NOTHING TO DO with one's general position relative to israel. for myself, i take israel as given and peaceful co-existence desirable and the policies of the israeli right as the primary obstacle to that peaceful co-existence. by these policies, i refer to the continued occupation of the west bank and gaza, the settlement programs--the entire idea of the "greater israel".

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Elphaba

Not in my opinion.

Willravel

I'm surprised it means something to you, Ustwo. Those pictures are oviously faked in order to illicit sympathy for the Palestinians and enflame world opinion against Israel.

Warf Rat

roachboy, point taken.
I do not take the current situation as simply as I put it. Sorry for the rants.

I have very strong opinions agianst the way Isreal has dealt with the Palastinians, and continue to do so. For expample, their ever changing of the border lines and what they are willing to give back.
I understand that if the goal is never clear, then the goal can never be reached, unless Isreal said it has been reached, that is the fault of the Isrealies, and the Palastinians are rightfully upset.

To the point of this post.
A cease fire of the Hezbollah fighters will only last as long as it takes them to feel free to attack again (I don't believe they will agree anyway). The narrow issue of a cease fire, is a nonstarter. If Isreal agrees, then the current PM will be forced to resign. Then, as democratic nations do, they will elect a replacement. It will be a hawk, unlike the current PM in power, and the outcome could be devastating.
My hope is that Hezbollah, refuses a cease fire and Isreal takes control of southern lebanon, until and international force can be brouhgt in.

Back to the original question (again), if a cease fire is agreed upon. My opinion is that Nassrallah will claim victory publicly, and it will be wdely accepted as truth in the arab world. There for ensuring that it will not last long.

Please understand, I have no dog in this fight, other than, I think poeple are not framing the conflict in proper terms. That is incredibly dangerous.

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A day late, and a dollar short.

Nirvana

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24170

an article by joseph farrah about who really cares about the palestinians.

edit: btw the only reason i am posting this article is because before there was a discussion as to why other arab states didn't come to the assistance of palestinians. other than that, i am not going to engage in this topic because they quickly become tiresome.

abaya

Yeah, I was starting to feel hopeful when I saw this thread, with non-Politics people participating... but it has degenerated to the usual Politics level, and will most likely be transferred there shortly by one mod or another.

Truly, though, WTF was up with that personal attack?? I don't care if you are attacking a conservative, liberal, or someone in the middle... but you just don't do that on TFP. At least, not the TFP I know and love.

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Carno

What's the deal with all of these political threads being posted in GD all of the sudden?

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genuinegirly

This isn't supposed to be taken in the usual political perspective.

that's why.

I'm not a fan of politics. Don't see why war has to be discussed entirely from a political standpoint.

me<-- pacifist Libertarian who doesn't feel welcome in the Politics board.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

abaya

I'd have to agree with gg. We get other current events threads going in GD, and no one complains about those... but if it starts to smell even a tiny bit political, out it goes to the wasteland known as Politics. And then it dies a slow, uneventful death as a thread with absolutely no productive conversation.

Maybe if current-events threads were allowed to sit in GD for a little longer, we might get some more diverse participants than if it's shuffled to Politics. Then again, maybe not.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Carno

The subject of this thread is political and thus should be posted in politics.

How is this thread not political?

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Nirvana

lol thats why i don't want to engage in these topics. people get angry very quickly, post little sarcastic comments, make assumptions of one another character and sincerity. once again, it grows tiresome.

abaya

It is political, but I think what gg is trying to get at is a broader audience who might respond differently from the knee-jerks in Politics. Does it really bother you that much if it sits around in GD for a day or two? If so, why? You know what happens to threads in Politics...

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genuinegirly

Maybe it just takes a non-politically minded individual to not see this as political.

sorry, folks. I didn't mean to drag the chaos into GD.

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Carno

Yes it bothers me. It bothers me because the same thing happened in this thread when it was in GD that happens to the threads in Politics.

The same fucking thing. It's not like the people who frequent Politics don't come into GD; if anything, this thread should show you that. Also, if you want to talk politics, go into the Politics forum.

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Infinite_Loser

Let's also not forget that there have been Palestinian groups in southern Lebanon attacking Israel since the late 1960's (Years before Hezbollah existed)...

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