Psycho Dad

Actually, I bet that would have worked. Waving a knive, hammers, or those big foam fingers that you see at football games, someone should have still been able to get behind the old woman. Certainly she was outnumbered in this situation (duh).

The taser is an excellent weapon and I've seen one in use against an able bodied man with a knife. But in the case of a woman on wheels, I'd have thunk the cops could have improvised.

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f6twister

It doesn't matter what the cops would have done...they can't do anything right in the eyes of the public. There is always a group of people who cry that it should have been differently.

1. Police subdue the lady with pepper spray. Public outcry that it was unnecessary to spray the lady in the wheel chair because she is obviously a knife weilding, non-threatening person because of the chair. If she dies, its because the police used excessive force. They should have either knocked over the wheel chair or waited until she wore herself out.

2. Police subdue the lady with a Taser. Public outcry that it was unnecessary to shock the lady in the wheel chair because she is obviously a knife weilding, non-threating person because of the chair. If she dies, its because the police used excessive force. They should have either sprayed her or waited until she wore herself out.

3. Police subdue the lady by shooting her. Public outcry that it was unnecessary to shoot the lady in the wheel chair because she is obviously a knife weilding, non threatining person because of the chair. If she dies, its because police used excessive force. They should have either sprayed her, Tasered her, or waited until she wore herself out.

4. Headline: "Knife Weidling Wheelchair Bound Woman Slits Wrists While Police Watch". Public outcry that the police did nothing while this lady, armed with a knife and who knows what else, was allowed to keep possession of the weapons and harm herself. If she dies, the public asks why the police stood by and took no action. They should have sprayed her, Tasered her, or shot her.


I could keep going. Shoot her with less than leathal bean bags? She gets knocked over, hits her head on the ground and dies of head trauma. How did the police know that she didn't have more weapons like a gun? They sit by and wait her out. In the mean time, she pulls the gun and starts firing. Two cops dead before she blows her own head off.

The police just can't win, no matter what they do.

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maleficent

again with the old... geeeez....

I haven't seen a picture of this woman - -but why is the assumption being made that she's this frail little gray haired grandmotherly type... 56 is really not that old... a 56 year old in a wheelchair doesn't neccessarily mean she's frail - just not as mobile as someone else... If she had the strength to flail around a hammer and a knife, my bet is that she wasn't frail...

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florida0214

I couldn't agree more. I mean Police have an increasingly harder job to do and they do it the best they. The typical citizen will not do the job and it is a job that has to be done. Police do the best they can with the resources that are available to them. I aplaud them and thank God that i do not have to be out tere in those situations.

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Psycho Dad

OK. If she reads this, gets offended and posts about it I'll apologize.

But in this case one can't help but think there had to be some better resources than a taser.

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Zodijackyl

It was highly unlikely that the Taser would be lethal, but it's not the cops fault that she died. Swinging knives is much more dangerous than a Taser, and the cops evidently had no intent to kill her, else they would've used their guns. Pepper spray would probably have sent her into a swinging frenzy, and a gun would make her drop the weapons, but probably kill a brittle old woman. I believe they made the right choice.

Jinn

Tell me that if it were a man standing swinging knives and hammers that you wouldn't TASER him. Just back away and let him cool down? Just because she's in a wheelchair doesnt make her arms any less likely to inflict critical or fatal wounds. And hell.. someone in a wheel chair who's been that way for years can cover ground just as fast as someone on both legs.. (strong arms)

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Zodijackyl

If it was someone more mobile I would be more likely to shoot them, since being inside there's only a second or two at most that you have before they're slashing and hitting you. Since it was unlikely the Taser would kill her, it was a good choice, and if it's bad luck, then she shouldn't have been trying to kill/mutilate/hurt people in the first place, especially her family and police.

Fire

first off to set one thing straight that someone mentioned-The FBI recently concluded that anyone within 21 feet of you can kill you about 50 percent of the time, even provided that you have a gun and know how to use it- because of this they now advise that if someone gets close to that range with a knife you SHOOT them (with a gun) We just had a training group of officers out of St. Louis come through to run V.S. Knife scenarios with airsofts, and found that stats to be pretty much accurate- In this case you are talking about someone in a chair, but the scenario pretty much breaks down to this-

Pepper spray- The subject flails around and hurts self, resulting in law suit- subject can still hurt self, and you, while you try to disarm them- and as they are blind and angry, and in pain, they will do so often....

Gun- Obviously a bit overboard

Taser- Statisticly unlikely to result in death, 99% effective, and lacking any lasting damage- and the subject will drop the weapon, and stop fighting-

We cannot know all the circumstances, but this woman was not listening to reason, and they had to do something- and I cannot fault them for doing what they did.....Anyone wielding a knife is a damn credible threat, so long as the arm holding it has any strength at all.....

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analog

Said it before, people are dancing around, i'll say it again: if you threaten a police officer with a weapon, you WILL and SHOULD be taken down IMMEDIATELY. Being bound to a wheelchair is not an excuse for threatening an officer with a weapon- and to suggest otherwise is pure stupidity, in my opinion.

[rant]

I'm confused that no one is thankful the stupid bitch didn't hurt or kill anyone before being tasered- which DID happen after a good degree of "talking down" that was unsuccessful. I'm shocked that people give two shits about this total moron who put the lives of her family members, and members of our police force in danger. And YES, waving a knife around is dangerous, wheelchair or not- note that a person in a wheelchair is more often there because their LEGS don't work, not their arms.

Being a police officer is a dangerous job. Those people put their lives on the line EVERY DAY because of stupid cunts like this one- people who don't give a fuck and do stupid shit that puts police officers in danger. I hate the word cunt, and I hate using it- that's how pissed I am about people bitching at the cops. You may not like them because you've been busted for smoking pot, they ticketed you for speeding in your yuppie sports coupes, or pulled you over because your stupid negligent ass lets your little kids run free inside your SUV or minivan- IN TRAFFIC... but they do a hard job, trying to keep things safe. Every profession has corruption, every profession has people with poor judgment. Some people need to get off their high-horses, pull their heads out of their asses, quit trying to monday-morning-quarterback the damn thing, and stop being so goddamn negative towards ANYTHING having to do with cops.

[/rant]

yabobo

Looks like Green cove Springs Florida will lose money now. To bad. I fully support the taser. Shit happens now the family will be rich. The cops were down wind and could use mace. heheheheh

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Zodijackyl

The worst part would have to be the family she was trying to kill will probably sue the cops for preventing them from being killed, and even if they don't win, it'll cost the police officers a hell of a lot of money for saving people's lives and defending themselves.
When I've seen these stories before, so often these bullshit lawsuits force the cops to mortgage their homes, drain their children's college funds, and sell their own possessions just to defend themselves for helping people who happen to be related to a bunch of fucking cunts who try to take advantage of the legal system.

I really wish we could enact a law immediately dismissing any law brought about by someone who brings such a fucking stupid case. I'm happy whenever I see someone who bring a frivolous lawsuit forced to pay court costs for wasting their time.

raeanna74

Here's a little more info on another news site

It seems she was schizophrenic, and had turned to flee after officers had unsuccessfully tried to talk her into putting down her weapons.

I'm glad to hear that her brother does not blame the police.

Another news site mentions that she was not in a room but instead she was OUTSIDE her home. This means there was no possibility of shutting her in a room till she calmed down.

Any more ideas of how this could have been handled better? I personally don't think there was anything else to do. Unless you have a specifically measured sedative in a dart gun handy.

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Adonis1782

sounds like another tragic accident to me, but tasers are better than cops always using guns. If people don't like that then should the police use tranquilizer darts instead and treat people kinda like animals?

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Gatorade Frost

This may be considered in bad taste since somebody died, but this video is the funniest video I've ever seen - Woman who bickers with a police officer gets tazed

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Gatorade Frost

Here's another story that in my opinion pertains to the original post: Parapalegic man stabs three people

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Nimetic

I'm wondering how fast was she able to move her wheelchair, given

a) she had a weapon in each hand and
b) you usually use hands to control wheelchairs

I'd be pushing for special funding to buy the police broomsticks. They could have them in specially designated cars with these officers specifically trained to handle wheelchair bound threats, children and small animals.

blade02

Exactly. Im suprised how many people on this board automatically assumed that because she was in a wheel chair that they should have been more gentle with her. See the person, not the chair.

hulk

I'd imagine a more important measurement would be the average velocity of said weapons upon leaving her hand in a thrown manner.

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Nimetic

Not too high I imagine..

It's just a hammer and a kitchen knive yes? Not that dangerous really, and quite likely to miss. I think the officer was a wimp to be honest.

hulk

The probability of her wounding someone with a thrown weapon vs the probability of her getting serious injury or dying from a taser. I'd say the latter is favourable.

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Nimetic

I'm still not convinced. Knife throwing is not that easy, even while standing.

We tried it heaps as kids. Most times, the knife hits handle first. If a kid who looked like he knew what he was doing threatened to throw a knife at me (and it looked like a weapon, rather than a utility/kitchen knife) - I'd be worried.

But we're talking about an adult now. More commonly, I'd suspect that an adult with a knife is emotionally disturbed, or in some other distressed or medically abnormal state. This is particularly the case for a person choosing a hammer as a weapon.

What is a hammer going to do? Sure if you let somebody hit you over the head it could hurt. But a thrown hammer. It will do nothing unless it hits you in the face. And the head is a small target. A person can dodge. Having had stuff thrown at me by my brother - I reckon dodging is fairly easy. You can see a throw coming in advance, from the arm movement.

Getting away from the technicalities of the threat, there are a lot of mental-physical-emotional issues that can lead to aggression. A quick check would indicate that we're not looking a mass shootout situation here and so for me, given the gender, age and physical abilities of the "target", I'd be trying something other than force.

Perhaps it's worth mentioning that I've seen fairly aggressive adults with dementia, and other mental/physical impairments. I've even been threatened with a knife while working with the mentally disabled, albeit a little one. Oh yeah, and slashed in school once.

These police need to toughen up a little. Perhaps also they should be forced to work for a while, without weapons, in institutions that expose them to people with mental health issues, people with dementia and with the disabled.

I'm thinking that a one month stint in a hospital, a 'mental hospital', a aged care facility, and spastic care or car accident rehab centre would give them useful life skills.

Plaid13

she deserved getting shocked if she couldnt handle a zap from a tazer she souldnt of been swinging a knife. If someone in a wheel chair or not is swinging weapons around at a cop for all i care that cop can pick up a 2x4 and crack them in the face with it. The tazer normaly dosnt do any real damage and the fluke that it killed her this time was nothing but bad luck. The cops didnt do anything wrong.

Someone that uses a wheel chair normaly has very strong arms she could throw that hammer very hard and it would be easy to break bones with Just about any hammer. a kitchen knife could be anything from a small butter knife to a cleaver so who knows what that could of been. i Know i have knives in my kitchen that could kill if thrown at someone.

Dilbert1234567

Actually it can be learned in an afternoon, with a balanced knife, but still a unbalance kitchen knife can kill when thrown across a room, a lucky hit on a leg or neck artery will kill in minutes; she still was a threat.
Stand 10 feet a way from me and see what I can do with a hammer

Seriously, throwing a hammer will hurt you, especially if the claws hit first, breaking bone, and lord help you if it hits in the groin; she was a threat.

um... wow, taking away a cops weapon... wow... first off, they are not trained to deal with people with mental health issues, they are law enforcement, and second the only thing that protects cops from lawbreaker are there weapons, taking away a cop’s weapon is like taking away a firefighters hose.
The police were called by the family because the family knew the woman was out of the families control, the cops came and dealt with the situation as they saw fit, fallowing regulations. It is unfortunate that she died, but the taser was the right tool for the job.
For anyone out there that has not been tasered, its not that painful, its 2 prongs that stick into you, they hurt like a bee sting, and then the electricity is not so much as a pain, but it causes your muscles to spasm and you can no longer control your movement in the effected area. I find it fun, but that’s just me (the lack of self control). Further more, the cause of her death is still under investigation. To blame the cops for her death because they were following procedure is irrational, with out being there, we can only speculate. imo the cops acted accordingly.

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smooth

I agree with all your points. then I looked at your location and your comments make perfect sense. I've spoken to aussies and they've explained how the police handle physical confronttations over there--including belligerently drunk, large men. if they were in any way accurate, I understand your confusion over what the hell our cops are doing over here. they aren't particularly trained in conflict management, although vast vast amounts of their time are consumed with it. they don't have any particular training in de-escalation, although it's time and time again shown to be more effective in resolving conflict than brute displays and exertions of force. there are just a myriad of reasons our police officers are still wedded to an out-moded orientation to the public (not the least already mentioned structural considerations of clearing cases and moving on in rapid fashion).

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hulk

You would risk it? If your job was to protect and serve, and you had the option to diffuse the situation using a device that is non lethal (not in this case, obviously, but the officer had no way in hell of knowing it would kill her), only injures the offender and is guaranteed to diffuse the situation, why would you risk injury to yourself, to others, both the victim and the offender by not using that option? It is almost as if you're assuming the cops burst into the room, took one look and fired away with the taser.

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Nimetic

That's true. Sadly - there is really insufficient information in these little clips. I agree, I really cannot judge the situation.

Moreso, what I'm doing is taking a speculative position based on the case "as presented". Partly for fun ok? Otherwise I'd not comment on any news whatsoever.

But yeah. I don't think that I'd fire the taser in that situation, around 97% sure. Regardless of the hammer and knife.

Nimetic

Pepper spray used in schoolgirl's arrest:

"The Aboriginal Legal Service (ALS) has criticised Western Australian police for using pepper spray during the arrest of a 10-year-old schoolgirl.

Police were called to a primary school after reports that a girl was in possession of a brick and a pair of scissors.

Police admit to spraying the girl, but have defended their actions saying she was behaving in a violent and threatening manner. "

[Remainder of article available below. Source: ABC news, where A means Australia]


http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...6/s1663144.htm

hulk

That girl was warned repeatedly to drop the weapons, or else they'll use the spray. When the cops make threats like that, they'll carry through. Something this girl has learned - and if half an hour of pain teachers her for life it's well worth it.

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maleficent

Is the ALS similar to our ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) a group that tends to make mountains out of molehills?

Well that's a bit of an overstatement. 10 year olds these days aren't like 10 year olds 20 and 30 years ago, where we not only feared getting in trouble at school, but even more trouble would come when our parents found out we got in trouble at school...

Is pepper spray excessive - I don't think the article gives the entire story, but I'm willing to give the police the benefit of the doubt, for now anyhow, thery were there, I wasn't. I don't think pepper spray is the worst thing that could have happened to this girl

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Dilbert1234567

A ten year old with a brick and a pair of scissors can seriously kill or hurt someone; therefore it is completely justified as long as they tried to defuse it. The ALS would be whining more if the police had used a riot shield and smacked the kid on his ass.

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krwlz

Im going with BORs on this one... Can we safely assume that pretty much no matter WHAT ACTION THE COPS DID OR DIDNT TAKE, they were going to catch hell for it on the evening news?

If they didnt "use excessive force" they would have been "afraid of a little old lady". The media was just using whatever necesary to degrade ALL involved.

The wonderful thing about media... You can slant any story any way you want, to get the desired reaction from people.

hulk

Not quite. More like an attourney's response, really.

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MechCow

My understanding is that tazers and other electric shocks, if delivered with the right frequency that they interfere with the rhythm of the heart can cause it to stop beating or to beat arhythmically (I'm sure I've spelt that wrong). If that is true, there really is no right way to use a tazer and it comes down to where you hit them on the body and the timing of the shock as to whether you will kill them.

Consider that in Australia and many other countries tazers are illegal for use by both police and citizens. This is because those countries do not deem them safe for use. Australias rate of violent crime is much lower than the United States (especially homicides).

Some type of force was probably required in this case. I think a baton to the head would have done fine. Shoot her in the legs :-)

I'm not sure whether you were making this point seriously but I agree with this. We don't hire petite female security guards, we hire (at least in Oz) almost exclusively Tongans and Islanders. No one says that that is racist - they are obviously the best person for the job. But when its a state position we have to hire people based on politics.

Nimetic

This is a legal aid group. For me personally, I'd regard them as potentially biased, but mainly in the sense that they are advocates for their clients.

To me, the opinion of the ALS is secondary. The key point is that police should be able to restrain a 10yr old girl somehow else.

But then, I'm not sure exactly how bad the spray is. The main reported problems have been with asthma sufferers.

Ok. Where does it stop though.

If your daughter of 10yrs confronted you with a brick and scissors - is it ok to use the spray? Is it ok to use a taser. Simple?

Right. Now what if the kid is 7yrs old. Is spray ok? Is the taser ok.

Now - lets consider a five year old. She has a brick (yes dangerous) and scissors (pointed up!). You know that she has the potential for violence - she bit her brother yesterday.

She says that she will kill daddy. A quick response is needed because you are in a supermarket and surrounded by innocent shoppers... in the ice-cream isle actually.

Halx

I'm with Jeff on this one.

But as far as my own opinion goes... another one bites the dust. People make mistakes and they pay for them.

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squirrelyburt

I've been hit with a taser in training, once was enough... and I'm still here. I am not a taser instructor yet, but the taser affects the nerves, not any cardiac rythyms. It works on volts, not amps.Voltage hurts, amps kill. Taser has .05 of an amp per application, about that of a strong static shock.

Amnesty International previously voiced a very strong anti pepper spray opinion, that "it was going to smother people, their skin will melt off... yadda yadda." I have athsma and I've been sprayed 5 times. I've been directly involved in spraying nearly 300 recruits with no medical incidents. The academy I teach at has over 1000 recruits exposed, no medical incidents.

There has been recent research into in custody deaths and how excited deleriums may be responsible for many of these incidents, coupled with other factors such as lack of recognition by officers and lack of pre-emtive EMS response. Excited deleriums can occur for a number of reasons, mainly related to psychotic episodes or use of stimulant drugs. Often, there is already a cardiac condition in the person (enlarged heart).

Think about working out, how your cardio goes up. The same thing happens in excited deleriums except the subject acts crazy, the Police come and typically a physical confrontation ensues. Tasers and pepper spray (OC, Mace) are less lethal options for road officers. We do all we can to prevent injury to ourselves and the subjects during the confrtontation, but in excited deleriums, problems start after the fight is over. A person in the excited state can have a pulse of over 200, and body temps of over 105 prior to a confrontation after a confrontation, it can be even higher. Once the police subdue the person, either the heart rate slows dramatically and blood vessels collapse, the heart stops, or the person is left in a prone position by Police and cannot support himself due to restricted oxygen intake. Death results.

Bottom line, less lethal options are not killing people, they die as a result of existing conditions and the cops are there. In custody deaths have not increased since the inception of pepper spray or tasers, in fact, lethal confrontations are decreasing.

Would there be a preference to return to the standard police baton or night stick? Think of the age of media we are in, and picture a badly bruised child or woman in wheel chair from a baton strike. Bad, bad, bad.

Thanks for all the support for law enforcement in here.

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fhqwhgads

Amen. This kind of support on a non-law enforcement based website is rare, and very appreciated.