lindalove

I mean evil to the core. Without the hope of rehabilitation. The kind of kids that not only you wouldn't want to have your kids or pets around, but you yourself would think twice about letting them out of your sight? What do you think? Then there's those two kids in England I think that took the toddler and killed him. Kind of like that movie The Good Son, with Macaulay Culkin.

Me, I've known of a couple of kids who tortured animals and did Satanic things with them. From what I know, they grew up to be adults who've spent time in prison.

Do you think it's chemical imbalances or whatnot, or do you think it's the parent's fault? Or both?

I'm thinking in most cases it's both. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

DEI37

I think it is possible to be solely a brain problem, chemical imbalance, whatever you want to call it. Think about kids that are violent, rebellious, or in general, naughty from day 1. The first little bit has nothing to do with the parents.

Obviously, it's also entirely possible that environment plays a part. Along with upbringing. This, I think, would be evidenced as the child got older, and either, got NO better, or worst. At that point, sometimes you have to let nature run its course.

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shesus

I have seen a few evil children in my teaching career. One boy would whisper his teachers name while they were walking down the hall in this chilling voice. He tortured an injured bird on the playground. He would throw chairs and tables at people and yell. He also drew black and white pictures of his teacher and him. The only thing that was in color was the red blood coming out of her chest and on the knife.

At my current school, it is full of evil children. They have know respect for anyone including them selves. They have no fear. In my room, I have a first grader that is actually going for observations because his behavior is so horrible. We're talking cussing, flipping off, chair throwing, table tipping, running and punching behavior.

I have also worked with children as young as 4 that have punched me in the stomach and chase people around with scissors.

These children aren't to the point of torturing animals yet..except my first example, but they are evil in the way that they have no concern with anything or anyone. I think it's a socio-econimic and parental thing. The parent or ver rarely parents come in at a loss. They throw their hands up and say they have no idea what to do. When I suggest taking away privileges their answers is "No, that would make *child's name* too mad at me." Parents need to take control back. Unfortunately, by the time it has made it to the point where they are 'evil' it's too late.

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Bill O'Rights

Mad at me as in *child's name* is going to kill me in my sleep....or mad at me as in *child's name* is going to scream and curse at me?
I agree that parents need to take control back. I've been to too many places (stores, restaurants...what have you) where little heathens are permitted to run rampant, with no regard for the establishment, or fellow patrons. "Oh, *child's name* is just acting out". No. *child's name* is not acting out. *child's name* is acting up.

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Ample

In college I had a similar discussion in a business ethics class. The disussion was more about to we have a choice in whom we are, but I feel it pertains to this discussion. About 75% of the class said that we are a product of our upbringing including myself. In our text book, which I always took with a grain of salt, said that we are 50% a product of our upbringing and 50% genetically predisposed to act the way that we do. I guess that makes some sence.

Are some children born evil, yes I would say, but not all.

TotalMILF

For the last couple months of my pregnancy I worked as a nanny for a lady who had 2 boys, 3 and 5. The 5-year-old was normal, but the 3-year-old was Satan incarnate. This kid has ISSUES. He would be an absolute angel if anyone else was around (especially his pushover mom), but once it was just me and him he would grow horns and sprout a tail.

If I tried to discipline Satan, Jr. he would yell things like, "I hate you," "I'll kill you," "You're a bad person," "I hate my life," "I wish you were dead," etc. And on several occasions he actually tried to punch/kick my hugely pregnant belly, knowing full-well that there was a baby inside that he could hurt. I got so sick of his shit one day that I just pinned him down until he calmed down, then locked him in his room while I sat on the other side of the door, listening to him yelling all sorts of things that should NEVER even cross a 3-year-old's mind. I told his mom, who wrote it off as a "boy being a boy." In her stupid head, he could do no wrong. He was her baby, and he was just "being a kid." That evil child and his stupid-ass mom both need some SERIOUS help, and a swift kick in the ass.

So, in answer to your question, no, I don't think children are "born evil," but that it takes a combination of genetic predisposition to violence and a lack of good parenting to push a child to sociopathy.

Coppertop

Out of curiosity, what would a "Satanic thing" done with an animal be?

BigBen

And this is the main reason (besides I can't afford the little tikes) that I don't have kids.

I was raised in a violent environment, and my immediate response to that scenario, Shesus, would be to give the kid acting up a world ending beating. I mean beat them until they are good kids.

Yes, that is a very politically incorrect statement. I have never hit a child (except for when I was also a child, and hitting a peer) nor would I ever.

Would that help? Maybe give the parents a beating for good measure.

Thank god I am not in charge.

Would a physical consequence to their actions speak to them louder than words, or 'priveledge taking' does?

On second thought, beat the parents. Every time their kid acts up, put mom and dad in the hospital. I believe environment plays the largest role in child development, and in this case the parents are wholly negligent.

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analog

Yup. Chemical imbalances can do all kinds of things. Of course, match that up with the right kind of molly-coddling parent who never scolds the child as they should, and you've got a recipe for a right dangerous bastard.

Rodney

I think it's both. Some people are built with some of the circuitry missing, or connected wrong. Put these people in a bad environment, and you've got potential serial killer. Put them in a good environment and... maybe you don't have a normal person, but they have a better chance of staying out of trouble.

Also, I read that brain trauma from injuries, blows, abuse -- aside from any psychological ramifications -- can actually cause children to lose the ability to control violent impulses. So in a case where an abused child is violent, you have to ask the question: is he violent because he's acting out his rage, or is he violent because Daddy's beating actually damaged his brain. Or both? The case I read about was a 15-year-old kid who was entirely normal and a good student, but then became violent and nearly uncontrollable after getting beat around the head. They identified the damaged areas with brain scans.

I have run across one kid recently who might fall into the pure evil category, except that he seemed just as sad as he was evil. He'd never had a chance in life -- junkie mother who kept him around for the welfare check, her abusive boyfriend who worked him over regularly with the business end of a belt, nothing to relate to in life but a game console. 50 percent of the time he was causing other kids gleeful hell and attacking kids smaller than him, and the other 50 percent he spent miserable because nobody liked him. You could point out that he was causing his own problems 'till the cows came home -- he was a very smart 10-year-old -- but he couldn't or wouldn't see it.

So was he purely in bad shape because of inattention and abuse? Or did heredity or Mom's drug habit (I'm sure she didn't stop shooting up during pregnancy) have something to do with it? Or was his brain damaged by beating? Or all of the above? I really feel for this kid, because he's pretty much doomed if things don't change for him.

Zeraph

Evil is a subjective term based on culture and current global matters. So no, it is not possible for a child to be born evil. They are made anti-social and disassociative by environment and some small part in genetics occationally.

Min

I had a student I tutored with a violent history, until he became large enough he attacked his parents and they became whimpering shadows, too afraid to stand up to him.
I stuck to my principles, insisting firmly that he act properly. I gave him specific rules and a list of expected behaviours. It was a long battle of wills, however, in the end, he considered me a good friend.

I can only hope those vicious children find someone else to help them before the instinct to give up takes over. I certainly had moments when I was ready to leave this kid to his bad mouth and terrible actions. He very much believed he was evil and would perpetuate the fear others had of him. Of course, as another pointed above about a 10 year old, he was just as sad because no one liked him.
I was not nearly this bad in my youth but definitely on the brink of tipping over to the side of blind rages and highly aggressive behaviours. I straightened myself out and pray others do also.

raeanna74

I'm sure there's some people out there who are clinicly insane from day one but those are probably the rarity.

A LOT of it has to do with parenting. Children will take things as far as you let them. Some are more empathetic by nature and won't harm others by reason of their inherant sensitivities. Other's are rebellious or strong willed and will do anything and everything they can to piss others off or hurt others. Either kind of child can grow into something quite evil if completely unguided or given a bad example to follow. BUT the rebellious, strong willed child will more likely become the "evil" one.

I guess in my opinion a person is given a certain set of blueprints to begin with. The parents eliminate some of those blueprints through their child rearing stretegies. In the end the child has to choose which final blueprint will be what they are.

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Poppinjay

12 year old beats mom and bro to death

This is a story we've been following. The boy was a bully from early on and was known to say things like, "don't mess with me, I'm crazy."

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lurkette

It's almost always both genetics/biology + parenting/environment.

Many children who have severe behavior problems have them as the result of a temperament that is particularly sensitive to abusive or neglectful parenting. In general, normal parenting or even lax parenting won't produce a truly antisocial child. They might have some behavior problems, but "evil," no. Most aggressive and oppositional disorders can be treated through parent training and family therapy.

There are rare cases of children whose brains are simply not built for empathy and adaptive social development. This is almost always a result of some kind of subtle brain damage.

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Karby

whoa...poppinjay!

the way that news article describes it, you'd think he was the devil incarnate, but trust me, i don't think you don't know half the story.

live in dc, but a neighbor who told his story on the nightly news gave a whole different picture.
she said that the kid was abused. according to his neighbor, his mother once hit him in the face with a frying pan, bloodying his face. 3-4 times a week he was always sleeping over at her house just to get away from his mother. according to her, he was always hungry. she called the authorities, plenty of times, and they didn't do shit, just chalked it up to a family squabble. she said that the kid would go to school with bruises all over his arms and legs, and when he did go home, all she could hear was his mother yelling at him. she said that on the day of the incident, he told her that his mother was yelling at him and punching him in the face, and that his younger brother was taunting him about it, and that he just snapped. not sure, but i think she was the one who called the police in.
everyone in the neighborhood knew the boy to be a bully, but she said that everyone also knew of the problems that he was having at home as well.

i don't know the details myself, but i serioulsy doubt that this is a case of an evil child, more like an abused one who couldn't take it anymore. if everything that his neighbor said is accurate, then that kid needs help, more help than the media is letting on, and a lot of it.

edited: spelling errors aplenty...

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kutulu

But that won't happen because it doesn't paint the picture of kids being out of control because their parents 'coddle' them.

which leads me to:
I have to say I'm so sick of seeing non-parents talk about how parents should discipline their kids. There is a difference between out of control and age appropriate behavior.

There is no such thing as the universal method of discipline, what may work for one kid won't do shit for another so stop trashing parents that refuse to result to violence against their children to 'keep them in line'.

ClostGoth

I would have to agree with (most) and blame the parents. Except for one thing - my now 9yr old was a total demon from the time he was 3 until just a year or two ago. He still occasionally flips out and throws chairs, but nothing like he used to be. Gosh the GUILT I felt as his mother! I went for years thinking that I was a terrible parent. But the younger two are perfectly normal kids, and we haven't done anything _differently_. The difference is appaling. If you could see a video of my 9yr old at three and compare it to a video of my 6yr old when he was three and our now 3yr old... The younger two have manners, ask questions constantly, cuddle and pet the cats, please, thank you, yes ma'am and no sir... So why would one child be so terribly different in the exact same environment? (My oldest is usually okay with animals and small children, now I would trust him to watch the 3yr old while I do laundry. But Back Then... The worst thing he ever did was push a toy screwdriver completely through a pet hamster at the age of 7. His therapist at the time said he thought that Boy was absorbing my horrified reaction and using it as his own - takes empathy training to a whole new level when your child isn't born with ANY...) It has to be chemical. When the eldest was 5, he was diagnosed with ADHD and ODD; now they say it must have been a misdiagnosis. Lots of parental research (The Explosive Child was our biggest help!) and trying many different methods. We finally got him under control - and more importantly we have taught him to control himself. And the most important, he cries about premie babies hooked up to monitors, homeless animals, and when others get hurt. We expose him to things we might not have otherwise - like Extreme Makeover: Home Edition, and commercials about starving babies in Africa. We also drag him to church on Saturdays to help cook and hand out food to the homeless. It's made an impact, and he really does seem to be developing his own sense of empathy - a little too much sometimes as now he wants to be a vegetarian because he feels sorry for the cows, pigs, and chickens we eat... It's a work in progress. But I can't fault parents who are in that position and honestly don't know what to do. There is a point where you want to give up on your child because you feel personally responsible and feel like anything you could do would just make it worse... I mean... Imagine waking up at 2am to find that your son has damaged the family pet hamster so badly that the little thing is lying on its side with insides spilling out? Imagine the trip to the emergency vet, the tears, and the anger and frustration when he doesn't seem to understand what is wrong? I made him walk into the back with me to see her in the little air mask, curled on her side and shaved so they could work on her. I made him talk to the nurses about the damage that was done and the decision to have her put down. Then I made that decision, and I made him stand there and watch while they did it. He petted her one last time and told her goodbye. And cried. That was one of the most important breakthroughs of his young life. And he seems to understand how bad it was - he has just recently shown an interest in owning a pet of his own, but has told me that he understands why I won't let him have one without me having to say a word. Maybe I'll let him have a fish in a year or two if he continues to behave "normally".

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doncalypso

I think some people are born inherently evil regardless of the kind of parents they have and regardless of the education they received.


Some people are just evil incarnate.

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Shpoop

This thread got me thinking...

My dad never disciplined me, like taking away priveledges or grounding me, etc, and he never had to. All he had to do was raise his voice, and I would immediately acquiesce. I'd like to take credit for it, for being such a moral, respectful, upright kid...but the fact of the matter is that he was just SCARY. Even my friends, some of whom were normally disobedient, would listen to him. No idea what he was doing right, but I hope I learn before I have a kid.

In terms of the original question, I think it's both. Let me be more specific: I think if someone is born with some abnormal violent gene or chemical inbalance, I think they will be "evil" (I don't like that word though), and I don't think they can be parented out of it. Also, if someone is born normal, I think they can be parented into it. Basically, I think you need both good parenting and good chemical balance to be a socially contributional person, and the lack of either can (but does not always, in the case of bad parents) screw it up.

Zodijackyl

I think some people naturally are at a much higher risk than other to be violent, and often their upbringing will bring this out even more. Even people who probably wouldn't be violent can be effected greatly by their upbringing. Someone raised in a ghetto where community leaders might be drug dealers will probably grow up hating police who take their (negative) role models away, and most of the kids raised in a high income town of 99.9% white people will probably have at least some fear of minorities (I see it every day).
Still, I think with good parenting and proper discipline (non violent discipline should be used mostly), anyone will turn out at least fairly non-evil.
The only exception would be someone with a mental defect making them unable to understand pain and/or emotions.

greyeyes

From a philosophical standpoint I really am not too sure about the freedom of the will. That said, I wouldn't blame it solely on the parents if a child is evil (though most times the apple doesent fall far from the tree) it could be genetics but the problem also could be because of what the child watches on television or sees in daily life. A child is more animalistic in the sence that I believe that most dont necessarily thing about things all the time; I believe that childhood is more of an immitation/learning stage.

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MSD

Yes, it is unfortunate that people are born who are unable to achieve even marginal integration into society. These people grow up to be serial killers and terrorists because they have no capacity to feel remorse for their actions against others. Some feel nothing when they witness others' misfortunes, some get pleasure from doing harm, but they can't exist in a society because of the inability to obey even the simplest social contract that "my right to extend my arm ends at the tip of your nose." Beyond that shitty upbringing, like the kind that half of the idiots out there give their kids these days, can cause a child with solveable problems to go the wrong way and end up doing bad things.

I believe strongly in rehabilitating those who can be rehabilitated, but some people should not be allowed into society, and some people are raised in environments that lead to incompatibility with society.
The Tenth Satanic Rule of the Earth (from [i]The Satanic Bible[/u]):
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

Doesn't sound all that bad, does it?

shyr_15

yes its possible. it maybe caused by different factors. it may be mental/emotional/psychological imbalance. and it may also be caused by the way a child is brought up. influences of his environment may trigger this kind of behavior.

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la petite moi

Why should we reward violence with violence? I, too, was raised by abusive and violent parents, and I am extremely against "beating" and what my parents called "spankings." I think we just need to educate people better on being parents, and our society needs to slow the f__k down and raise the child instead of having a nanny or babysitter do it for us. That being said, I think that "evilness" can be a predisposition, but typically you'll see the majority of problems occur within the home.

Suave

It is the fault of their circumstances. The parents are a large part of that, but to outright blame the parents when there is no "proper" way to raise a child is extreme. If fault were to be found, I would say it would be primarily with the parents, then with the other relatives, then the child's peers (such as they are at that age), combined with, in cases, whatever innate (be it biological or otherwise) tendancies the child may have from birth.

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Lady Sage

Ive been doing Astrology for over 7 years now. Believe it or not, call me crazy, tell me im delusional if you will. It holds a lot of truth! It is also very complex but Aries mars (energy) afflicted negatively can play a HUGE part in being overly pushy and dominating.
Also, environmental factors such as family living arrangements and household stress. Possible bad parenting or abuse can figure in heavily as well.

frogza

I think it's more about upbringing than innate tendencies. I worked with troubled youth for some time. I've had murderers, sex offenders and thiefs actually live with me after they got out of juvi. Most responded well to discipline, they wanted desperately to fit in. In my house that meant respecting people and trying to be kind. Sure they had times when they would revert but overall, by the time they were out on their own at 18 they were good kids with a good future in front of them.

It was especially gratifying when I got to watch a couple of them teach a group of trouble kids at a local high school.

mr_alleycat

Change children to politicans, and you have our leadership

BigBen

And that is why I am glad I am not in charge. I am learning non-violent coping mechanisms, but it is hard to teach this dog new tricks.

I am not proud of the anger that wells up inside me when I see a child behaving badly. It scares me. I want to be better than that.

That is why I read the TFP. To become a better person.

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