02-01-2006, 06:57 PM | #1 (permalink) | |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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Deputy Shooting Of Man Caught On Tape
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What I DID see was this guy lying on the ground, talking to the cop. I HEARD him ordered to "get up." I HEARD him say, "I'm getting up." I SAW the cop shoot him three or four times, and HEARD the cop yell at him to "Shut the bleep up" as he lay there moaning. Now the cop is temporarily off duty, in order give him extra time to come up with a bullshit excuse. On my local news, there was already a police spokesman attempting to downplay the cop's actions. I would really enjoy hearing anyone, police or otherwise, explain to me how the cop acted reasonably, although you'd have to see the video, which I can't get yet.
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02-01-2006, 07:36 PM | #3 (permalink) |
seeker
Location: home
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Welcome to the police state.
This kind of stuff happens all the time. One of the major reasons I moved to a different state. I couldn't even walk to the grocery store without getting stoped and questioned.
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Last edited by alpha phi; 02-01-2006 at 07:49 PM.. |
02-01-2006, 08:42 PM | #4 (permalink) |
whosoever
Location: New England
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somewhere along the line...we seemed to accept the propostition that the police would act theatrically...to impose not just the physical enactment of order...but also the pyschological projection of it.
The swat team, the militarized tactics, the helicopters sweeping in from the sky, and the urban combat motif...all contribute to the point where our relationship with the police is that of a civilian population to a occupying army. somehow, i feel a great nostaligia for the neighborhood beat cop who walked the streets, and knew the people on a basis other than having slammed their faces into the pavement.
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02-01-2006, 08:47 PM | #5 (permalink) |
seeker
Location: home
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za589YJtUUU
this is the CNN vid someone taped and uploaded to youtube the site is kinda' slow but it works
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All ideas in this communication are sole property of the voices in my head. (C) 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 "The Voices" (TM). All rights reserved.
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02-01-2006, 08:48 PM | #6 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Attempted murder. Try him and convict him. Make sure other cops see that they are resonsible for their actions.
Edit: If police officers are going to be confused by the dark, or scared to the point of tunnel vision, or whatever, then we should take their guns. There is no excuse. There is no excuse. Last edited by Willravel; 02-01-2006 at 08:52 PM.. |
02-01-2006, 08:56 PM | #7 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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I want to know how you shoot a guy, lying on the ground, 3-4 times, at point blank and not kill him.
The officer is not only a nut job, but apparently the force there needs to work on marksmanship.
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02-01-2006, 09:00 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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I'd add to what you've said--A local cop tried to make excuses for what I saw. He should be fired if he can't see that this was inexcusable.
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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02-01-2006, 09:09 PM | #9 (permalink) |
Myrmidon
Location: In the twilight and mist.
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we're real close to a reckoning in this country.
and goddamned I'd be glad to fire the first shot. fucking pos peace officers, this motherfucker should be shot.
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02-01-2006, 10:17 PM | #11 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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02-02-2006, 12:13 AM | #12 (permalink) | |
smiling doesn't hurt anymore :)
Location: College Station, TX
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cop shoots military man complying with cop's orders.....attempted murder, gross misconduct, conduct unbecoming an officer.
hell, I say put him in front of a military tribunal. I'm a firm believer that gun control is hitting what you aim at. If you don't have the presence of mind to kill something you shoot at from point blank range, you have no business as a licensed gun owner. If you don't have the presence of mind to refrain from shooting a person following your orders as a licensed law enforcement officer (aka officer of the peace), you should have your badge stripped of you. Attempter murder of federal employee/agent. Life without parole. No plausible excuse with the taping of it. The only reason I would say it wasn't attempted murder is that from that range, the officer should have had no problems killing the man. So part of me thinks that it should be assault with a deadly weapon, attempted manslaughter (due to the officer's pisspoor aim from that distance), with 25 to life in the plea.
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02-02-2006, 02:58 AM | #14 (permalink) |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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From what I saw of the tape on the news this is truly disturbing. I hope there is more to this than the tape shows. It is hard to imagine a trained officer getting so spooked from this confrontation that he fires multiple times at a man laying on the ground who is trying to follow his order to get up. He must have thought the guy was going for a weapon or something, what other explaination could there be?
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02-02-2006, 07:58 AM | #15 (permalink) |
Upright
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Just to play Devil's advocate. Maybe the cop said "Don't get up" and all we can here is the "get up" part. The video isn't the best.
Either way he shouldn't have shot the guy. The only time he should have shot is if the guy stood all the way up and started to advance towards him. This is just horrible. Just hope the MP is ok. |
02-02-2006, 08:08 AM | #16 (permalink) | |
Rookie
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I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips |
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02-02-2006, 09:04 AM | #17 (permalink) | |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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It's harder to predict what the explanation will be for him yelling "Shut the bleep up" while the guy was moaning.
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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02-02-2006, 09:07 AM | #18 (permalink) | |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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That may not be an exact quote, but it's very close.
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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02-02-2006, 09:22 AM | #19 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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I think that since this has now hit CNN, it's pretty safe to say that at the absolute minimum this cop is going to lose his job and will most likely be prosecuted. I'm guessing that he'll plea bargain down to something like attempted manslaughter and serve a minimal time in jail if at all.
The real fun is going to be at the civil trial where the plantiff's attorney is going to try to play the tape over and over again for the jury. I hope that the City of Chino has been paying their insurance premiums because this is going to be pretty expensive. It's hard to predict jury awards, but I'll throw out $5M as a minimum with really no ceiling. |
02-02-2006, 10:50 AM | #20 (permalink) | |
Thor
Location: 33:08:12N 117:10:23W
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Obviously, though, in a situation like this: everyone looses.
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02-02-2006, 11:35 AM | #21 (permalink) | |
Asshole
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Location: Chicago
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02-02-2006, 01:14 PM | #22 (permalink) | |
Myrmidon
Location: In the twilight and mist.
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yeah, that does piss me off. hasn't happened in front of me yet, but if it does the perp's ass is grass. and willravel, yes you can be on my side
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Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read. |
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02-03-2006, 08:24 AM | #23 (permalink) |
Tilted
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I have listened to the tape rather than watched it. From this, I suspect I have an explanation for what happened:
The cop was clearly rattled after the 100+ MPH chase. He reasonably feared the occupants were armed and dangerous. Light was low, and his visibility of the fugitives was not good; the possibility of one of them drawing a weapon unseen was quite real. The cop, in his hyped-up state, was less than clear in his enunciation of his wish that the fugitives (now lying down) remain there; his command “don’t GET UP!!” sounded more like “GET UP”, though listening calmly I can hear it either way. The cop shot the guy when he started to rise, in his mind in direct defiance of command. In those circumstances the shooting would have made sense. Having listened to the tape this is plausible. And the cop is a veteran with no history of shooting or violence of any kind on his record, which makes it seem less likely that he is just a trigger happy thug. Before you flame me, please consider the difference between “explanation of” and “excuse for” what happened. If my explanation is correct, the fault lies (mostly) in the officer being unable to clearly communicate in a stressful situation. They are specifically trained for this, since stressful situations are to be expected and the potential consequences are obvious. The officer should have been very clear in his commands, and he was not. |
02-04-2006, 08:40 AM | #25 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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well, I believe we can now see the real reason why alot of law enforcement officers don't want law abiding citizens to carry weapons, open or concealed, because someone might have had to shoot that officer to prevent the murder of a citizen.
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02-04-2006, 04:27 PM | #26 (permalink) | |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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02-04-2006, 04:31 PM | #27 (permalink) | ||
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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Someone is still going to have to explain to me what part of their procedure manual states the cop is to tell a shooting victim to "Shut the fuck up."
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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02-04-2006, 09:43 PM | #28 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: Canada
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I haven't watched a video of it, but if the transcript in the news article that Marv posted is correct, there is no explanation, that I can think of, for firing the gun. Whether the police officer said "Get up", or choked on his first word and (like FatFreeGoodness proposed) said “don’t GET UP!!”, the airman clarifies the police officer's instructions. The article says that the airman replied "I'm going to get up, all right?" and THEN started to get up. Whether the police officer choked on his words or not in the stressful situation, he's aware that he could have been misheard. If the airman has the foresight to clarify the policeman's command before complying, to avoid ambiguity, the police officer should take the opportunity to realize that he has been misinterpreted.
I doubt the police officer is an evil person, I think he must have succumbed to anxiety or pressure and lost control of himself. This is a terrible, terrible situation either way. I hope that full compensatory action is taken on behalf of the injured airman, and that the policeman is properly punished. In my uninformed opinion, attempted murder would be extreme because, like I said, I doubt the police officer had truly evil intentions. However, I think that he should certainly be charged with assault with a deadly weapon, conduct unbecoming... etc. etc. (don't know all the fancy legal phrases). |
02-07-2006, 01:44 AM | #31 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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As much as I dislike these sorts of things, and cop/cop-related interactions for a myriad of reasons anyway, there's no reasonable way to claim that simply because a person says he's going to get up, in contradiction to a direct order, should mean that the person getting up heard right or is following directions.
Now it may very well be that the police officer told the guy to get up. but we have to ask ourselves whether officers generally, or even rarely, request suspects to get up off the ground. No, they tell them to get down, stop moving, or some variant of quit moving until I come over and move you myself. And most people who have had the unpleasant misfortune of being accosted by the police know this. I suspect that this driver hasn't had that experience too often in his life, if ever. I don't know the hows or the whys of his involvement in a 100+ mph police pursuit, but I am confident that when the chase ended, the driver probably thought to himself that the gig was up. He'd stand up, dust himself off, and take his lumps (figureatively or literally, who knows) and be done with the stupidity of the situation he probably accidentally got himself into due to a stupid split second decision that he was laying there regretting. And he was almost positively laying there thinking about all this through a haze of pain and discomfort. So it's not unreasonable to think that he may or may not have heard the police officer at all, much less whether he said to do or do not get up. And it seems to me that someone in that situation would think to himself that he just needs to make his intentions clear: hey man, I'm just going to get up, ok? and think that's good nuff. because after all, he's one of the good guys, one of us, just a regular joe going about his business after a car accident. But the cop doesn't know this. He could be a non-regular joe. He could be Clyde for all the cop knows or cares. So up comes the perp, and POP goes the gun. In about a second. Or, take out your trusty stopwatch and time yourself saying this as fast as you possibly can: How long do I have before he shoots me? or shorten it to "How long" What's your watch say? How long did you have? But all this happens fairly regularly in the region I live in. too often to be comfortable. anyone watching the news over here on a daily basis would know not to do what the driver did. that even if the cop does say, get the fuck up, you say, goddamn bro, I can't move. watch, I won't move a fucking finger until the ambulance comes. so that's my input on the situation. what it really boils down to in my mind are a bunch of emotional responses to watching someone get shot. Someone we'd like to trust (war vet) being mishandled by someone we'd like to trust (the cop). but I suspect not a lot of people on this board have ever been on either end of a police gun.
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02-07-2006, 05:57 AM | #32 (permalink) | |
Asshole
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Location: Chicago
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02-07-2006, 07:13 AM | #33 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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He KNOWS the drill, knows the procedure and when you hear him telling the cop he's 'going to get up now', he's doing it and saying it because thats what he was told to do. There is no excuse for this cops behavior. Now imagine if the guy had been killed and this wasn't videotaped, what would we be hearing about it?
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
02-07-2006, 11:21 AM | #34 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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I don't see how it's relevant to correct me whether he was the driver or the passenger, but whatever.
You two are assuming he knows the drill and that assumption leads you to conclude that he must be following orders. The fact is that military police are not analogously trained as civilian police and he probably doesn't "know" the drill, but more than likely thinks he knows the drill, which is precisely my point. Although on the face of it he doesn't appear to "know" the drill because as I described in my earlier post, the "drill" is you lay on your face until the police move you. In what situation do you think MP's operate in an analogous situation? In actual combat? or in guarding prisoners? In what realm of experience do you think an MP tells suspects to "get up" before securing the situation? Which is why I suspect that many of you have no actual experience with being accosted by the cops. In what universe do you think cops tells suspects to stand up after they've chased them down? I also happen to have watched and listend to the actual video (which isn't in this thread, the link is commentary about what is being shown) because it ran on our local news numerous times before it hit national. hopefully someone will provide it and then we can resume talking about the 'facts'
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
02-07-2006, 11:45 AM | #35 (permalink) | ||
Asshole
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Location: Chicago
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02-07-2006, 11:52 AM | #36 (permalink) | |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
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02-07-2006, 11:57 AM | #37 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Right here
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You're making points after the fact that the people in the situation had no knowledge about. My post was speaking from the officer's perspective at the time. Quote:
I never said the cop was in the right and he probably doesn't think he was either, in retrospect. It's very easy to see how both of the actors in this situation thought they were doing the right thing at the time without too much difficulty or stretching of the information.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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02-08-2006, 03:49 PM | #38 (permalink) |
I'm a family man - I run a family business.
Location: Wilson, NC
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this guy is going to get nailed in court. let's look at it from both angles:
he told the guy to "get up" and then shot him when he got up. he is fucked. FUCKED! second angle: he told the guy to "don't get up." then the guy tried to get up. then he unloaded on him. he is fucked, still. why? because he didn't have any proof or reason that the guy was going for a gun! you are only supposed to "incapacitate" a person if you know they are getting ready to endanger their life. the guy wasn't going for his pocket (from what the video shows), didn't even get the guy any 'tude. he even said he was on his side! NOT TO MENTION, the officer could have kicked the guy or something when he tried to get up, not shoot him multiple times. he unloaded on the poor guy. this is a simple case of "my adrenaline is rushing, I have a gun, I'm ancy, please don't move or I will shoot you accidently" reminds me of the scene in goldeneye when orimov and his soldiers are watching James walk behind the big cart of explosive barrels. orimov tells none of them to shoot, the one soldier gets ancy and fires, orimov wastes the guy. same thing happened here, except no one was there to waste the officer.
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02-08-2006, 08:02 PM | #39 (permalink) | ||
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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However, you also hear someone on the tape (identified on the news show I saw as "neighbor) saying, "Why'd you shoot him when you told him to get up?" I'm anxious to hear what the witnesses say. Although they're doing their best to get rid of the taper, who had, I think, an outstanding warrant in another state.
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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02-09-2006, 07:38 AM | #40 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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caught, deputy, man, shooting, tape |
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