jorgelito

Does anyone here have any swordplay/fighting experience? My school offers classes and clubs in two styles: Fencing and Kendo.

I only have time to commit to one so I need a bit of advice in choosing.

My objective:

*Learn a new and interesting skill (Kind of intuitive and old schoolish)
*Instill and maintain personal discipline ( I usually participate in team
sports, wanted to try an individual activity)
*Exercise (cardio, flexiblility, dexterity, some upper? body & arm strength)
*I'm not too into the "sport" aspect, more into the skill set and training
aspect)

I don't know much about either one but I'm going to guess that fencing is more of a 16th-19th century European style, no shield, one-handed. Kendo is ???, no shield, two-handed martial arts style.

ziadel

if I had to choose which is more practical of the two, I'd say kendo..
but only because you could wield a bat in the same manner if you knew kendo...


based on what you want, I'd also say kendo would be a better fit...

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MrTuffPaws

As I have taken Kendo in the past, and my sister took fencing, I can comment on it for you:


*Learn a new and interesting skill (Kind of intuitive and old schoolish)

Both fencing and kendo will fit the bill here. Fencing will be cheaper, being you won't have to spend hundreds of buckaroos for the armor.

*Instill and maintain personal discipline ( I usually participate in team
sports, wanted to try an individual activity)

Both fit the bill here two, but keep in mind, both need an opponent to do it correctly.

*Exercise (cardio, flexibility, dexterity, some upper? body & arm strength)

Both are excellent in cardio, fencing is better in flexibility and dexterity (people who move like trees can do kendo pretty good), Kendo wins out on the upper, but don't expect too much(Chances are you will get really nice forearms and that is it). Both will give a workout to your legs though, with fencing more on the torso.

*I'm not too into the "sport" aspect, more into the skill set and training
aspect)

Both are sports and will require you to spar to get any better. When sparing, someone has got to lose. If you can handle losing to another person, instead of another team, then you should be fine.

As for teaching real sword skills, I put fencing in the lead. You stab with a rapier, and that is what fencing does. Kendo you have three targets on the body to hit, and it does not really focus on the correct form for cutting. One can almost say that Kendo is like hitting each other with sticks for points. But hey, how many of us carry a rapier or katana around with us for protection.

jorgelito

Thanks for the info guys, I really appreciate it.

To briefly clarify: When I mentioned "sport", I meant it in the context of say like competitions, judging or whatever. Only because it seems counterintuitive. I have the same problem with martial arts. (not a big deal though, just a preference).

I wasn't really looking for a "self-protection" type of purpose (that's what guns are for) but rather, to learn something new, a new skill etc. It just seems interesting to me, like archery.

Cost isn't a problem as the school provides all the equipment.

Sparring should be the fun part. I don't mind losing in general just because that's how I get better and stuff. When I refer to individual, I mean "without teamates."

The real 'issue' I suppose is one of form and style. If Kendo really is like "bopping each other over the head with sticks" as oppose to other skills then maybe I would lean towards fencing. What exactly is Kendo anyways? I can't seem to recall ever seeing it.

Anyways, thanks again for your opinions, I found it helpful and useful.

With regards to fencing, you mentioned rapier. Now, aren't there many different types of fencing: foil, epee, rapier, cutlass etc?

The_Dunedan

Fencing is a blast. However, it is 150 years ( at least ) removed from "real" swordfighting. Kendo much more closely resembles the fighting styles from which it descends, but it somewhat less mobile. Kendo bouts are also over more quickly and more heavily ritualized. It's hardly "bopping each other with sticks," but it does tend to be more limited than Fencing, because the legal target-area is very, very small ( head, wrists/forearms, and chest ).

Both with be EXTREMELY expensive. Most of the expense in Kendo is wrapped up in the armor ( $600+ typically ), and a complete kit of Fencing equipment ( Jacket, Knickers, Plastron, 2 Foils, Lamee ) can easily run to more than $1000, especially if you compete in multiple disciplines, or if you go in for high-end gear like Triplette Arms, PBT, or All-Star. Avoid cheapie France-Lames or Blue Gauntlet stuff.

There are three Disciplines in Fencing: Foil, Epee, and Sabre.
Foil: Oldest of the three, most tightly regulated. Target area is the torso; no arms, legs, or head.
Epee: Larger, heavier blade. Target area is the entire body.
Sabre: Fastest and most aggressive of the three; Sabre is for sadists. Target area is everything above the waist, and you can cut as well as thrust.

Foil and Sabre are govorned by an extremely complex system of scoring rules called the "Right Of Way" rules. These are designed to prevent "double-touch" scoring, where each person gets a point, and are based upon deciding which person had control of the action when the touch was scored. These rules began as a training-aid when Foil was developed, in the 17th century: their purpose was to get people into the habit of -not- "trading punches" with their opponents by creating a system in which you only got a point if you were controlling the action. It's a kind of "artificial fear." It's also a PITA, but learning how to manipulate the rules can be a sick sort of fun.

Fire

I like epee for the above reasons- but while fencing and kendo are at this point both sports, they do provide a nice starting point and teach a lot of good foundations for actual weapons use- kendo translates nicely, with a little expanded learning, to european two hander and bastard sword, and fencing gives you a good start for any european cut and thrust swords- though to get the full effect you should fence sabre and epee- either one will improve your fitness across the board, and both are enjoyable activities- in answer to your above questions about rapiers, cutlasses ect-, the term fencing derives from the words art of defence, and today is strictly a sport involving practice weapons- techniques with these weapons resemble old styles of fighting, but are quite different from the real thing- foil is sort of like the techniques used with the smallsword, epee is kind of like rapier, and sabre is similar to well, sabre- there are many groups out there that are trying to recreate other weapons, and most try to teach true to history techniques- you can get some very good books on rapier fencing, sword and buckler, etc, but fencing will certainly help your skills with any recreationist arts that you get into later........

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Suave

Well think of it this way: if you had a dingus with a rapier versus a badass with a katana, who would win? OBVIOUSLY katana dude. This is a completely unbiased assessment, brought to you by the letter K and the number ATANA.

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noodles

okay, finally my time to shine

i've taken and taught kendo for 3ish years. (i was a professional martial artist for several years)
i then quit when i went to college and took up olympic (aka sport) fencing and am currently coaching my club and fencing nationally at a high level (div1/1a).

first, to clarifiy: you should find out what type of fencing is offered at your school: sport fencing or historical or classical fencing. historical/classical are two distinct and separate styles, but they both focus on more realism in their techniques. they are much much less competition-oriented with more focus on technique and such.

*Learn a new and interesting skill (Kind of intuitive and old schoolish)

either one will work here, a-ok

*Instill and maintain personal discipline ( I usually participate in team
sports, wanted to try an individual activity)

either one will be good for you in this respect. sport fencing will be a much more competative environment, kendo being secnod, and historical/classical fencing being last when it comes to being a competative activity.

*Exercise (cardio, flexiblility, dexterity, some upper? body & arm strength)

sport fencing gives you the most rigorous workout. it basically makes you into a freak muscle machine that can break down walls with your lead side. kendo is an all-around martial arts workout.

*I'm not too into the "sport" aspect, more into the skill set and training
aspect)

this sounds to me like either kendo, or historical/classical fencing. sport fencing is just that. you generally train to win tournaments.

you sound like someone who'd be interested in kendo. it will give you a solid workout, teach you new, interesting skills, and you can make it as competative as you wish.

edited to throw this in:
i want to pre-empt this stupidass argument before it starts: it does NOT matter what sword you have in your hand. it matters who is behind the sword. a katana vs a rapier, the smarter swordsman will win. not the one with weapon x in their hand. i can quote you historical events to back up this, too. i've had this argument many, many times.

The_Dunedan

Musashi vs Random Rapierrist: Musashi wins.

Savonarola vs Random Samurai: Savonarola wins.

The type of sword doesn't matter. It will influence the type of strikes a swordsman uses, but other than that is irrelevant. Spanish and Dutch rapierrists defeated Samurai on a number of occaisions; Musashi developed his double-sword techniques after observing Spanish swordplay while in the Phillipines. Conversely, there were an equal number of rapierrists who were cut into quivering bits by the Samurai. It all depends on the fighter.

queedo

They teach both fencing and kendo at the school I go to and I can say that kendo/iaido would win every time.

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jorgelito

*chuckle* This thread is beginning to sound like a video game manual: rapier v samurai, +2 attack! etc.....

But seriously,

Thanks guys for all the helpful info: I have decided on a two-pronged solution. Fencing this quarter, then Kendo in the Spring quarter. I think that way I get both.

Charlatan

I've been doing Kendo for about three years myself and I would highly recommend it as an answer for all the questions you have...

Especially regarding the sports angle. Yes, you will spar but Kendo is ultimately a battle with yourself. The cardio workout is like nothing I have ever experienced, especially once you are wearing Bogu (the armour).

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seizei

I did kendo for a year, and I thought it was ridiculous. Perhaps it was the school, but I just couldn't agree with their concepts. In sparring, my impulse was to sidestep attacks and counter, and I was actually told that I shouldn't move side to side, only forward and backward.

Perhaps that was because I was beating them all by acknowledging that there are other directions of movement besides front and back.

This is after 15 years of martial arts, so I just couldn't stand the style anymore.

I'm gonna try to look into European fencing sometime - sounds fun!

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Fire

your problem is caused by the fact that kendo is a sport- hence the no sidestep- also, you will find that in sport fencing- yep, no sidestep there either... thats one of the big differences between sport and real- not sidestepping limits the options, and to an extent the potential for crazy events resulting in injury- it also forces you to develope and use certain techniques- I have practiced while standing on a log, about 6 inches off the ground, and it forces you to learn to defend yourself with parries, and to keep /be aware of distance, as there is no other option- if you do this kind of practice along with "in the round" sparring, then you wind up with a good all around capacity.......

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Slims

Ok, I have to weigh in here

The no sidestepping, at least in fencing, comes from a gentlemen using the name Kappa Ferra, who revolutionized duelling when he published his first book circa 1594. He was more or less the bruce lee of fencing.

Prior to this book, duelling was conducted on the pass. Basically, if you straighten your arm and sweep a circle with the tip of your weapon, you would sweep out an imaginary 'killing zone'. Your opponent would try to run tangent to this circle and step in just long enough to deliver a wound, and then would continue his path out of range.

Kappa Ferra was able to show that this was inefficient, and wastefull of motion. Basically, he said to line up against your opponent, and move forward and backward to kill him or to get out of his way, extra side to side motion is wasted energy since it is far easier for your opponent to simply pivot than it is for you to run sideways.

Sport fencing today is conducted on a strip, and is fairly linear. We do have side steps, they are called incortadas (sp?) but they are of limited usefullness.

It has been my experience fencing SCA fencers and watching even our newbie sport fencers beat the better SCA types that it is really quite easy to simply rotate to keep a "traditional" fencer straight in front of you. Also, when you are moving sideways, you shorten your stance out of necessity, and you are involved in a motion that makes you less able to react and move forward or backward instantly, which will give someon e all the opportunity they need to lunge, stab, and retreat.

If you ever want to see this, go to a major SCA tournament. Odds are the winner will be a sport fencer.

Interestingly, despite claims to the contrary, modern sport fencing, at least Epee, while obviously adapted somewhat for a sporting type competition has remained relatively unchanged since the days of kappa ferra. What worked then works now. He developed linear fencing, and the modern parries, as well as incorporated many linear attacks into one school (lunges, for instance, had been around, just not widely used).

The development of linear fencing occured simply because it's practitioners were winning all the duels.


Kendo is highly stylized and rigid. It is controlled both by practical considerations (certain blows don't work against an armored opponent) as well as asthetic ones (you shouldn't chop someones head off, you should cleave it down the middle). It is a fascinating sport, but due to it's rigidity is only really usefull against another practioner of kendo. A skilled japanese swordsman who knows which rules to break, will easily defeat the best kendo practitioner.

It, too, is mostly linear, but also because it is the most efficient way to conduct a sword fight.

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Charlatan

For example Hiro Protagonist...

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noodles

i also did 12ish years of MA and went to sport fencing. its good, if your tendancy is to counterattack, you're gold. come join the ranks

re: sidestepping stuff
bullcrap, there is totally sidestepping in sport fencing. greg700 referred to an inquartada (thats the correct spelling), which is kind of a side step, but it gets its effectiveness when you quickly twist your torso, displacing the target and making it much harder to hit. yes, things are fenced on a strip, but the strip isn't a tightrope. its 2ish meters wide. you have room to move. you can totally sidestep something if you feel like it. of course, thats not really the best idea in the world, but you can do it. you'd generally want to sidestep in conjunction with other things. also, running by an opponent is a pretty common occurance, which could be seen as sidestepping (since you're running off to their side), but again its in conjunction with another action.

noodles

kudos to snow crash ref

i was thinking more like Miyamoto Musashi.
he was a genius swordmaster, being undefeated after 60+ duels. he once beat someone with a paddle from his boat, intentionally leaving his sword in the boat.

Charlatan

As for sidestepping in Kendo... it is done all the time. It isn't especially effective for scoring points but you can sidestep.

Unlike fencing Kendo matches are fought in a circle.

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lite campfire

I've been thinking of that fight for the entirety of reading this thread.

Ripsaw

jorgelito: How's it going in the salle? We want training updates!

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jorgelito

Ok guys,

I finally did it. Yesterday, I officially signed uo for Fencing and Archery at school. I am very excited and looking forward to it. All equipment is provided. I love UCLA!

Archery is taught by Stanley Cheng - I believe they mentioned it may be Olympic style, but I'm not sure.

Fencing is taught by Greg Shiller. He's supposed to be well known in Southern California. I hope to go into Saber, but we will learn foil and epee as well before concentrating.

Kendo guys, don't worry, I have taken your advice to heart and will sign up next quarter.

And to make things interesting, I am looking for a Krav Maga class!!! That'll be the next debate. *wink*

I will keep everyone posted as things develop. Thanks again!!

noodles

i know greg shiller. he's the coach at UCLA (duh, since you just mentioned it) and a HS or two in the area. he's not a bad coach, but he's not the best (no offense to greg). especially in your area. but its a good start PM me or something if you want to know anything else about sport fencing

Undercover_Man

I've always wanted to learn how to fence. That would be so awesome. Only prob is there's no baddies that are trying to overtake my castes these days so I can practice on the bad guys with a real sword.

queedo

A lot of this is personal choice. I take a class that teaches Kendo, Iaido, and Tano-jitsu and I really enjoy them all. My sensei also teaches European swordsmanship and I really can't get into it. All are good for developing the skills you mentioned. I have to say though that the classes I take in my opinion are more challenging and require more concentration and discipline. I hope this helps

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Fire

I am glad to hear from some sport fencers on the in the round v.s. strip fencing- I still favor in the round, while you all have a point on the evoloution of duels, I am interested in broader based application, and feel that while it may be duel efficient, it limits a persons perspective and versatility- I train with a lot of sport fencers, and we have found the tendency to want to go back and fourth, with little side to side to be limiting

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kitsune

it seems as though differnet fighting styles teach different principals and different methods of balance. i think if you were serious about anything, it'd be wise to learn different kinds and form your own method