bal8664

I'm not big into weaponry at all but someone sent me this link today so i figured i'd share it with everyone here who can enjoy it.

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/effective.html

pandafaye

The slogans on that website made me cringe. If you're going to do something like this, don't make yourself look stupid in the process.

ziadel

would you care to elaborate on your dissatisfaction a little bit more?

I think these are pretty cool pics....






this one REALLY makes you think...

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ziadel

I'm prolly beating a dead horse here, but whats not to like about this!?

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longbough

Some folks (not me) are understandably sensitive about those slogans. Taken in the wrong spirit they only reinforce negative stereotypes people have about gun owners.

But here's a very informative site about women and guns: http://www.libertybelles.org/

Moonduck

I'm a gun guy, have been all my life. I support 2nd Amendmant rights as strongly as anyone without myself wandering into extremism. In other words I write letters to my Representatives, I am a member of the NRA, and I have introduced many of my friends to the joys of recreational shooting (which is probably the single best way to protect gun rights as it helps dispel stereotypes and gets more people that might be willing to help defend the 2nd amendmant). I read every last one of those slogans. Only a few made me cringe.

The problem I see is that people are still so bloody sensitive to the subject that they cannot see it any other way than prima faciae. That's bothersome on many levels, but in general is attributable to the lack of depth that is endemic to our society in America. Sound bites and slogans are digging a shallow grave intellectually.

That said, whether they make you cringe or not, they are the truth. I just wish we could get the same kind of effect from such ads as the "truth.org" people get from their cringeworthy anti-smoking ads.

Jerron36

Moonduck...I agree...I think you hit it on the bullseye...

solo2020

I support the 2nd amendment, but not to the extremes that some people go. I believe that people lawfully abiding in the U.S. should be able to purchase high powered rifles/handguns and use them for recreational/hunting/defense.

But here is a question I don't understand. Why do people whine about not being able to own fully automatic sub machine guns and assault rifles? Now the argument can be made that "well it's in the Constitution." True, but the founders of this country couldn't have foreseen the gun violence that is happening now. When the people are given too much power, we tend to abuse it (much like politicians).

I live in Kalifornia, so I have seen the impact of gun violence on friends and acquaintances. This state is also full of extreme left wing bureaucrats (I'm a Democrat).

arch13

I could have soo much fun with this picture.
I choose to take it literally. The second amendment gives my SO the right to kill anyone who would stop her from making a choice about her body.
I like this idea.

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MSD

Legally owned automatic, sub-automatic, and other Class 3 weapons are almost never used in crimes. Those that are used are smuggled in, and sold on the black market. It's like banning Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Mclarens, and other supercars because they're theoretically the fastest means of escape from bank robberies. When a bank robber runs away in a Modena, it's because it was the first thing he could carjack, not because it was the fastest car he could get.

If German Jews had automatic weapons in the 1930's and weren't afraid to use them, they could have fought off the Nazis instead of becoming victims and dying by the millioins. If the people of Poland had them, they might have been able to resist invasion.


A well-informed lawmaker's desire to take guns from the hands of legitimate owners is directly porportional to the comfort with which they can violate the rights of the people whose guns they take.

The_Dunedan

Solo:
The founders also couldn't forsee the internet, digital printing, television, radio, "The Turner Diaries," "Mein Kampf," or "The Communist Manifesto."
Considering the number of people killed by the ideas expressed in these books, and made available through modern print-media, by your logic the 1st Amendment should only apply to quillpens, hand-operated presses, and the unamplified human voice.

As for the gun violence you see in the PRC, that is a direct result of your over-amped, illegal, unConstitutional victim-disarmament laws. The criminals have no problems getting weapons; the law-abiding ( aka their victims ) are disarmed and unable to resist.

longbough

I presume you are referring to the opposition "gun-folks" have to the "Assault Weapons" Ban.
I'm glad you mention this because there's a big misconception that should be adressed.

#1. Fully automatic (i.e. class 3 weapons) are already illegal for private citizens to purchase and own (with rare exceptions) throughout the US for many years. People assume events like the "Hollywood shootout" reflects the weakness of current legislation. This is false. Those automatic weapons cannot be purchased in your local gun-shop or gun-show. They were obtained illegally.
#2. The "Assault Weapons" Ban is NOT a ban on fully automatic "Assault Weapons." It only establishes the legal precident to ban firearms on the basis of cosmetic features alone.
"Gun-folks", like me, are baffled with the descriptions of "evil features" that "define" the "Assault Weapon."
Flash hiders -simply protect a shooter from being blinded by excessive muzzle blast. They are NOT made to conceal your position while shooting- that is a myth. It wouldn't be very effective anyway for that purpose.
Collapsable Stock - It is not used for facilitating concealment under a treanchcoat. It is for storage or for "de-bulking" paratroopers' loads. The basis for the "treanchcoat" myth is pure Hollywood. While criminals may have hidden long guns beneath long coats this has little to do with a collapsable stock.
For a heavy battle-rifle like the FN-FAL, a collapsable stock wouldn't help at all.
Pistol grip - pure cosmetic. It is not used to facilitate "one-handed" shooting of a rifle. If you wanted to convert any long gun to a "one-handed" weapon you can just cut off the stock and it can still be gripped. Crooks commonly do this for double barrelled shotguns which don't have pistol grips. Even so, a semi-auto rifle or shotgun is just too damned heavy to use one-handed anyway.
Bayonet lug - when was the last time you ever saw a crook who used a rifle with a bayonet?
I could go on but you get the point.

The very name "Assault Weapons" is a complete misnomer. Despite it's description in the media and by its supporters it has nothing to do with automatic weapons. Just look at the way it is written.

The "Assault Weapons" Ban only establishes a basis to justify the banning of guns on cosmetic grounds alone. When the ban comes under criticism by gun-owners we imagine this big group of sociopaths weilding automatic weapons.

The truth is that gun-owners, like myself, are fearful that the establishment of laws like this would gradually expand the definition of "Assault Weapons" over time to include almost every gun manufactured.

It's understandable to assume I am merely some "gun-nut' selling a euphemistic slant on an obvious issue. I implore you to research the facts (from neutral sources) behind the hyperbolic slogans hurled by BOTH sides of this issue before you draw your conclusions. The results may surprise you.

I live in Calfornia, too. Ironically, I've found that most "liberal" friends and relations have been quite closed-minded about this issue. Even after finding the facts for themselves and even acknowledging that their argument is founded on false claims - most of them refuse to change their stance on the issue. But in the end, they are forced to admit their position is a matter of emotion - not reason.

hrdwareguy

Please do some research instead of posting incorrect statements. (Sorry if this is offensive, but this has been covered many times already.) I do not consider people owing full auto weapons as rare. Check out this thread on class 3 items for more information. The info in the link refers to federal law. State laws may apply, but I think it unreasonable to say they are already illegal just because they are in California.

Your forgot grenade launcher. However I must point out that grenades are 40mm devices and to own anything over 40mm, you must have a destructive device permit. Therefore if you have a destructive device permit, this does not apply to you. What gets sold on AR-15's are actually 37mm flare launchers. They also fire "bird bombs", that just go pop. Farmers have used them for years to scare crows out of the fields.

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longbough

hrdwareguy, no offense taken.
Thanks for the clarification. I'd rather be enlightened than promote misconceptions.

I am aware there exists legal provision for the purchase and posession of class 3 items. My use of the term "rare" was intended to address an assumption many people have that such items are easy to obtain. They aren't. I think that's a point you were also making with your prior thread.

In fairness I was writing to respond to someone who is sincerely "anti-gun." In my experience, when you encumber your basic thesis with technicalities that neither strengthen nor weaken your position, you will often "lose your audience." Perhaps your experience is different, but I have had discussions with several "anit-gun" people and their eyes just glaze over when I quote even basic statistical information to them. I get farther by sticking to my premise and elaborate on the details individually during the course of discussion.

In any case I don't understand how your statements refute any of the points I was making.

hrdwareguy

Longbough,

I was not trying to refute any of your statements, just providing a little more accurate information.

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113647

I am a class 3 firearms owner, and would agree that it is "rare" that a US citizen will take the time to jump through the hoops involved in the purchase. It is currently illegal to produce or import class 3 weapons for public consumption..... I did not find anything on the website listed to be offensive, while my position may differ on some issues, I would give them the same latitude that the PETA extremists are allowed. I understand that our constitutional amendments give all of us some leeway to express our opinions..?

hrdwareguy

Can you please site your source of this information. The last thing I read was that it was perfectly legal.

Department of the Treasury - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide - ATF Publication P5300.4 rev 01-00 gives the laws that must be followed to be a manufacturer of full auto weapons.

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solo2020

What LongBough pointed out is true, many people who I know simply take semi-automatic variants of assault rifles and convert them to full combat style assault rifles. You and I both know that any 1/2 decent gunsmith could retrofit any semiautomatic rifle to fully automatic.

I also forgot to add that the gun store audits in California is a joke. I'm considered a "permanent resident alien" in this great State of Kalifornia. I purchased my 1st .22 rifle at a local gun store with no problem, fill out some paper work and provide some government information. Passed the background check with no problem.

I go to Big 5 to purchase a Enfield and Mosin Nagant, the manager tells me that I need the following

1) 3 consecutive different bills to my current address, dating 3 consecutive months
2) Green Card
3) A fucking car registration under my name (WHAT THE FUCK)

What the fuck is wrong with people nowadays? I pay my taxes, never been arrested, and try to lead a productive life. Yet, because I'm not a citizen they make me jump through these damn loops for a WWII rifle? Yet, Bobby Smith in Alabama gets to buy a AK-47's and Street Sweeper shotguns with no problems.

Now some will say, well you dont fall under the same category as a citizen. True, but does filling out paperwork for citizenship (which I have already filed 4 months ago, takes 6-9 months to process) make me any more/less American then somebody who was born here?


Sorry about my ramblings, just frustrated about the whole situation.

The_Dunedan

Solo;
Totally understandable. The gun-access situation in Cali is insane.

hrdwareguy

Solo,

Move to Alabama with Bobby Smith and you won't have a problem either. California has some of the most stringent gun laws in America.

On another note, yes, any gunsmith worth his salt can retrofit a semi-auto into a full auto, hell, I can do it and I'm not a gunsmith. No one said it was hard. but, if they get caught then there are fines and jail time. Not worth it for most of them.

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izin

I'm pretty sure the ATF has cut off all class 3 imports which may be interprepted as full autos are illegal. Domestic class 3 weapons and weapons imported before 1986 (? i think) are able to be sold with a tax stamp and the fingerprinting and photo's.

Ms.VanHelsing

I don't know much more about guns other than they were designed to injure or kill.Their history and future is written in blood.

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Ms.VanHelsing

Not all Germans hated the Jews...but those who did also hated themselves.
Not all Arabs hate the Jews either. The Jews have turned their desert green, The Arab nations have turned their desert red even with their own blood..
Israel is a tiny piece of land compared to the Arab Nations. They should have just left the Jews alone and learned from them how to make their land green too. Instead they insisted on opening up their own can of worms.
The Germans thought they could do it. too. Where are they now.

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The_Dunedan

Van H:
You seem to have missed the point alltogether.

ziadel

yeah she did

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daswig

So much misinformation, so little time. A DD is anything with a bore over half inch diameter that doesn't have a "sporting purpose". "Sporting purpose" generally means things like shotguns. There's no such thing as a "destructive device permit". If you buy a destructive device as a private individual, you do it on a BATFE Form 5320.4, with the $200 tax paid, or if you have the appropriate SOT status, on a Form 5320.3, tax exempt.

With your 37 mm example, those are generally not seen as destructive devices because of the nature of the ammunition available for them. If you were to handload an anti-personnel round for a 37mm launcher and possess it in conjunction with an appropriate launcher, you would indeed most likely find your ass in the Pokey for possession of an unregistered DD if you didn't file a 5320.1 first and have it on hand and approved prior to constructing it. As long as it's a signaling device, it's not a DD. If you turn it into a weapon, a 37mm launcher IS a DD. Same deal with "bang sticks". If you're in the water and use it on a shark, it's not an AOW. If you take the head of it off and carry it around as a self-sefense weapon against humans, it's an AOW.

daswig

There are currently in excess of 250,000 NFA weapons in private hands. That ain't rare. And the only difficulty in getting them is one of cost. If you can possess a firearm and it's legal in your state, you can buy a machinegun or "silencer". There are even ways around the photograph/fingerprints/CLEO signoff requirements. All it takes is cash, a clean record, and a willingness to jump through hoops.

hrdwareguy

Aside from the symantics of permit vs license I agree with you. The point I was trying to make is that most people aren't putting grenade launchers on their AR-15's.

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daswig

OK, but please keep in mind that people who are private individuals (ie not dealers in NFA weapons) don't have a permit or a license to own NFA weapons, they have a tax stamp for each item. It may be nitpicky, but it's a pet peeve of mine.