i like this gun D.E - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Drider_it · 08-09-2004, 03:35 PM

http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand...oductCode=DE50

KirStang · 08-09-2004, 07:09 PM

Just my opinion, but i think DE's are completely impractical. Unless you're hunting.

MSD · 08-09-2004, 07:41 PM

Wrist-wrenching recoil and a 20% jam rate make this a gun that is impractical outside of first-person shooters. Don't even think about a follow-up shot. For self defense, it will rip through multiple targets, for home defense it shoot right through an intruder, a few walls, and into your sleeping kid in the next room, or the neighbor's house, where it will cripple whoever it hits. Even I couldn't use it for concealed carry.

I'm not directing this at you, but I don't see this as being worthwhile for anything other than a theatrical weapon or a penis size compensator.

whocarz · 08-10-2004, 12:31 AM

I will echo MrSelfDestruct on this topic. The only reason I could see needing one of these is if you needed anti-vehicular capability hehe.

Stare At The Sun · 08-10-2004, 03:24 AM

Yeah...

Unless you're Agent Smith, get a Glock.

Seer666 · 08-10-2004, 04:09 AM

It's a great gun to own just so you can say you own it. Take it the range, shot it once, get a cast for your wrist, and hang it on the wall and forget about it.

SatanLvsU2 · 08-10-2004, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
Wrist-wrenching recoil and a 20% jam rate make this a gun that is impractical outside of first-person shooters. Don't even think about a follow-up shot. For self defense, it will rip through multiple targets, for home defense it shoot right through an intruder, a few walls, and into your sleeping kid in the next room, or the neighbor's house, where it will cripple whoever it hits. Even I couldn't use it for concealed carry.

I'm not directing this at you, but I don't see this as being worthwhile for anything other than a theatrical weapon or a penis size compensator.

Couldnt have said it better myself. What a piece of crapola.

tropple · 08-10-2004, 06:26 AM

Why does everyone always assume that the only ammo in the world are factory loads?

Don't everyone get so negative because a person uses a large-bore weapon. Hell, the M-29 is wonderful with a 3/4 load, very authoratative and not at all bad on the wrist. Even in a 3/4 load, it'll do the job.

Also, for safety, you can use pre-frangible rounds. My fave has always been the Glaser Safety Slug. Even in .308, there is no penetration through a second layer of sheetrock. I don't know if Glaser makes a round for this yet, but they probably will. I used to buy them in .45, .308, and .380. It was a comfort to know that if I had to use the backup, that making a torso hit with a .380 was a killer.

There are a couple other rounds with very low penetration past a second surface. Offhand, I don't remember them now, though.

SatanLvsU2 · 08-10-2004, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tropple
Why does everyone always assume that the only ammo in the world are factory loads?

Don't everyone get so negative because a person uses a large-bore weapon. Hell, the M-29 is wonderful with a 3/4 load, very authoratative and not at all bad on the wrist. Even in a 3/4 load, it'll do the job.

Also, for safety, you can use pre-frangible rounds. My fave has always been the Glaser Safety Slug. Even in .308, there is no penetration through a second layer of sheetrock. I don't know if Glaser makes a round for this yet, but they probably will. I used to buy them in .45, .308, and .380. It was a comfort to know that if I had to use the backup, that making a torso hit with a .380 was a killer.

There are a couple other rounds with very low penetration past a second surface. Offhand, I don't remember them now, though.

I don't think it’s a matter of weather or not it’s a big bore weapon. It's that the DE is a piece of crap. It's expensive to shoot, uncomfortable, and unreliable. This is why nobody has copied it. It’s the same reason why it’s used in all the movies. Its main point in life is much the same as the H2. Sure, it’s big and powerful and flashy, but you wouldn’t want to take it offroading. As far as self defense is concerned, by the time it takes you to draw and accurately shoot one round, I could have gotten 3 well placed rounds with a Glock. And if a 10mm doesn’t stop someone, you need to be running.

Your revolver on the other hand is copied by everyone and IS powerful and reliable.

sailor · 08-10-2004, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
Wrist-wrenching recoil and a 20% jam rate make this a gun that is impractical outside of first-person shooters. Don't even think about a follow-up shot. For self defense, it will rip through multiple targets, for home defense it shoot right through an intruder, a few walls, and into your sleeping kid in the next room, or the neighbor's house, where it will cripple whoever it hits. Even I couldn't use it for concealed carry.

I'm not directing this at you, but I don't see this as being worthwhile for anything other than a theatrical weapon or a penis size compensator.

Yep.

Dont judge a firearm by the way it looks or the size of its ammunition.

ggadgit · 08-10-2004, 11:33 AM

Had a friend that had one, fun gun but it can jam, IMHO no pistol should be gas operated, recoil only, heck I built ar-15's that are almost lighter than that thing.

DelayedReaction · 08-10-2004, 12:49 PM

Spend $500 and pick up a decent 1911 like a Springfield MilSpec, replace the extractor and mag springs, and spend the rest of the money on ammunition.

IIRC, DE's were originally designed for crews that needed a powerful but small weapon. You could store it in your tank, and pull it out when needed. Never really caught on, but thanks to Hollywood everyone wants one now.

lefty8080 · 08-11-2004, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DelayedReaction
Spend $500 and pick up a decent 1911 like a Springfield MilSpec, replace the extractor and mag springs, and spend the rest of the money on ammunition.

IIRC, DE's were originally designed for crews that needed a powerful but small weapon. You could store it in your tank, and pull it out when needed. Never really caught on, but thanks to Hollywood everyone wants one now.

I'm with you on this one. I LOVE my 1911. As far as a 3/4 load in the DE why bother, save the cash buy a .45 or .44 mag and run factory loads.

Tab · 08-11-2004, 11:07 PM

If you check out magnum films and see what this gun to a watermelon, I myself would never want to shoot another human with this gun, and im in the army lol

SatanLvsU2 · 08-12-2004, 03:53 AM

watermellon isent exactally someones head.

Besides, there's a whole lot you might put up with seeing if someone was trying to kill you.

Tab · 08-12-2004, 12:54 PM

Listen, the thing destroyed a cinderblock wall, do not tell me it would be a minor wound to a body. Yes in the situation if it was there Id use it, but still the after affects wouldnt be pretty.

SatanLvsU2 · 08-12-2004, 09:09 PM

I never said it would be minor. Besides, it's rare that anyone has time to have a well placed shot in self defense, so the chances of you getting off one with that hand cannon are like practically 0.

whocarz · 08-12-2004, 09:26 PM

Well, I've seen pictures taken of corpses that had been shot in the head by various guns. None of them are pleasant looking, and I can assure you, if you shoot someone in the upper center of the head, chances are they will be dead.

mtsgsd · 08-13-2004, 06:18 AM

I shoot bullseye pistol, and one of our competing club's home range has a yahoo that loves to shoot his .50 during our matches. He's in an adjoining range, but the boom is still so damn loud (indoor range) that we all wear hearing protection even when we're waiting outside our range to shoot.

As is typical with people who buy this sort of thing (present party excepted of course) he can't hit the broad side of a barn, and has a silly grin on his face the whole time.

Bigger ain't better.

DelayedReaction · 08-13-2004, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tab
Listen, the thing destroyed a cinderblock wall, do not tell me it would be a minor wound to a body. Yes in the situation if it was there Id use it, but still the after affects wouldnt be pretty.

That's exactly the problem; it goes THROUGH cinderblock wallks. None of us are saying that it's not a powerful round; we're saying at times it's TOO powerful. If you're using this for personal protection, you want a round that will enter the target and stay there. A hollowpoint 0.45 ACP would do that. A 0.50 DE round will go through your target, through the wall behind it, and probably take our Mir while it's at it.

If you're looking for something flashy and fun that people will like looking at, go for a DE. If you're looking for an effective weapon that is accurate, dependable, and is designed for self defense, look elsewhere.

Tab · 08-13-2004, 01:26 PM

lol never said I wanted one, just said it would be messy

zfleebin · 08-16-2004, 10:47 AM

Has anyone who is talking about the wrist wrenching recoil even shot a Desert eagle? I ask because I have trouble believing that it has hurt them before they made it through at least 50 rounds.Personally, I think the recoil of the DE is entirely manageable and is probably half of a taurus raging bull .454 casull. The recoil also seems less sharp than most magnum rounds as well due to the weight of the gun. I also wonder where you guys have come up with this 20% failure rate. Between me and two other guys we shot fifty rounds through a desert eagle at one sitiing and had 0 ftf and fte. Now the accuracy statements I can understand because even being outside with plugs and a headset I was still shaken by the noise and flash. Still, I would say that the accuracy of the DE would be similar to that of a S&W mod 500 if not better because of the increased weight.

BoomTruck · 08-17-2004, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zfleebin

Has anyone who is talking about the wrist wrenching recoil even shot a Desert eagle?

I have to ask myself that all the time.

My mother (who doesn't shoot hanguns often) shot mine before I had a chance to. She didn't think it kicked bad at all. I have had freinds shoot it and other sidearms of mine at the same time. Some say my 10MM is harsher than my DE. If you use your head and take the recoil with your arms instead of trying to hold it down with your wrists, it doesn't attempt to hurt you.

And most failures I have had have been due to reloaded ammo or weak mag springs.

Just like anything, it has it's application. Hunting and targets, yes. Personal protection when something more suitable is available? No.

I am not intending to sound like a raging fanboy here, I just tire of people who 'know people with DE's ' constantly decrying them as useless. Try it before you bash it.

And as a side note, Magnum Research BFR's are fun to shoot, as well as very accurate and well-made.

cheese · 08-18-2004, 12:16 AM

Hi,

i have never shot the .50AE but my father does own the 44mag DE. i love shooting it its a blast. as forr the jamming rate,when he first go this 44mag it jammed ALOT. but he sent it back and the fixed it.. the spring was to tight. the ting is is there are soo many moving partsdue to the double locking chamber, and the specs are so close that if any thign is off justa lil will jam . typicaly a manufatuiing problem easley remeded by mag research.

as for buyign the 50, i donno if i ever get a DE ( i want one SOO bad but dont have the $1200+) i would prolly go with the 44 or the 357mag. The 50 is to expencive to shoot nerarly a dollar a round.

but yes the 44mag is more than manageable recoil. and fast shooting is very possable. we have a floatingdot for it and thats just fun shooting 4" groups at 50 ft ( witch isnt TOO impressive but if you have seen me shoot thats damned good)

NoSoup · 08-18-2004, 09:57 PM

The 44 Mag is extremely accurate - we were hitting 4x4 targest at 100 yards with it with a floating dot scope. As far as the recoil goes, I found it very similar to a .45, maybe even less due to the weight of the gun...

Captain Canada · 08-21-2004, 05:46 PM

I would own a Desert Eagle just to say I own a Desert Eagle. Definately not the most practical pistol for protection.

Dostoevsky · 08-25-2004, 12:38 AM

I plan on owning a Desert Eagle someday, but definetly not for self defense. The Desert Eagle is just a big manly showgun. It's the firearm equivalent of a Corvette or a Viper. Not too practical, but a real head turning showstopper. I want the most flambouyant finish I can find in nothing less than .50.

angeltek · 03-02-2005, 08:47 AM

I Do Not own one, but I had the Joy of Using one when I was In Israel. That thing packs quite a punch, and it's frinkin loud. I found that it wasn't that hard on the wrists though. I did have a army guy teaching me how to fire it though, so that's probably why.

I also got to fire an m16, ak 47, uzi, .45 magnum, baretta, and a parabelum Auto the same day. DE was my favorite destructive weapon though.

ziadel · 03-02-2005, 06:51 PM

It may or may not be worth mentioning, that with the advent of the .50GI, those looking for a .50 caliber weapon suitable for defense purposes now have a viable option...

http://www.defensereview.com/modules...rticle&sid=396

Cylvre · 03-09-2005, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dostoevsky

I plan on owning a Desert Eagle someday, but definetly not for self defense. The Desert Eagle is just a big manly showgun. It's the firearm equivalent of a Corvette or a Viper. Not too practical, but a real head turning showstopper. I want the most flambouyant finish I can find in nothing less than .50.

Here you go Dostoevsky

Titanium Gold Nitride With Tiger Stripes, it can be yours for a mere $1,550 here on Gun Broker

Personally I think the grips look blah for a $1,550 gun, but I suppose if your paying that much you can offord to shell out for whatever grips you want too...

krwlz · 03-09-2005, 07:46 AM

What I want to know is how many times I've seen a thread with the title of DE50... and Also how many times they turned out as a mirror image of this one...

longbough · 03-09-2005, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tab

Listen, the thing destroyed a cinderblock wall, do not tell me it would be a minor wound to a body. Yes in the situation if it was there Id use it, but still the after affects wouldnt be pretty.

Tell you what - I'll bet if I shot you in the right shouder with a .50DE then the left with a .45 ACP you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two.

And, believe it or not, a heavier, faster bullet doesn't necessarily mean more tissue damage or bigger wound. Over-powered projectiles tend to go through soft tissue and overpenetrate the target. The most incapacitating wound is made when a round stops in the target delivering all it's energy by either mushrooming or fragmenting. Shooting cinder blocks is one thing. Shooting live targets is another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dostoevsky

It's the firearm equivalent of a Corvette or a Viper.

Actually it's more the equivalent of a Hummer H2. The Hummer wants you to think it is like the Humvee with its utilitarian looks, but is actually a Chevy pickup underneath. It comes in a variety of colors and is usually owned by people who want to make a statement.

Taking a .50DE to battle is about as practical as taking a Hummer to war.

Suave · 03-09-2005, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longbough

Taking a .50DE to battle is about as practical as taking a Hummer to war.

You may want to specify the "H2" part there, since the HMMV and H1 (aka Hummer) are almost exactly the same thing, aside from a bit of armour plating and a weapon mount.

longbough · 03-09-2005, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suave

You may want to specify the "H2" part there, since the HMMV and H1 (aka Hummer) are almost exactly the same thing, aside from a bit of armour plating and a weapon mount.

right.
And I'll add that, despite their looks, most H2s won't even see offroad. More often they'll be packed with kids, dogs and groceries and get simonized on weekends.

Cylvre · 03-09-2005, 05:42 PM

I loath the H2, they look like a damn cardboard box on wheels...

03-10-2005, 06:20 AM

i really like that they have videos.

08-09-2004, 03:35 PM	#1 (permalink)
Drider_it Junkie Location: Louisiana	i like this gun D.E http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand...oductCode=DE50 __________________ It means only one thing, and everything: Cut. Once committed to fight, Cut. Everything else is secondary. Cut. That is your duty, your purpose, your hunger. There is no rule more important, no commitment that overrides that one. Cut. The lines are a portrayal of the dance. Cut from the void, not from bewilderment. Cut the enemy as quickly and directly as possible. Cut with certainty. Cut decisively, resoultely. Cut into his strength. Flow through the gaps in his guard. Cut him. Cut him down utterly. Don't allow him a breath. Crush him. Cut him without mercy to the depth of his spirit. It is the balance to life: death. It is the dance with death. It is the law a war wizard lives by, or he dies.

08-10-2004, 12:31 AM	#4 (permalink)
whocarz Jarhead Location: Colorado	I will echo MrSelfDestruct on this topic. The only reason I could see needing one of these is if you needed anti-vehicular capability hehe. __________________ If there exists anything mightier than destiny, then it is the courage to face destiny unflinchingly. -Geibel Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

08-10-2004, 04:09 AM	#6 (permalink)
Seer666 Oh dear God he breeded Location: Arizona	It's a great gun to own just so you can say you own it. Take it the range, shot it once, get a cast for your wrist, and hang it on the wall and forget about it. __________________ Bad spellers of the world untie!!! I am the one you warned me of I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

08-10-2004, 06:26 AM	#8 (permalink)
tropple Junkie	Why does everyone always assume that the only ammo in the world are factory loads? Don't everyone get so negative because a person uses a large-bore weapon. Hell, the M-29 is wonderful with a 3/4 load, very authoratative and not at all bad on the wrist. Even in a 3/4 load, it'll do the job. Also, for safety, you can use pre-frangible rounds. My fave has always been the Glaser Safety Slug. Even in .308, there is no penetration through a second layer of sheetrock. I don't know if Glaser makes a round for this yet, but they probably will. I used to buy them in .45, .308, and .380. It was a comfort to know that if I had to use the backup, that making a torso hit with a .380 was a killer. There are a couple other rounds with very low penetration past a second surface. Offhand, I don't remember them now, though. __________________ +++++++++++Boom!

08-10-2004, 12:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	Spend $500 and pick up a decent 1911 like a Springfield MilSpec, replace the extractor and mag springs, and spend the rest of the money on ammunition. IIRC, DE's were originally designed for crews that needed a powerful but small weapon. You could store it in your tank, and pull it out when needed. Never really caught on, but thanks to Hollywood everyone wants one now. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

08-09-2004, 07:41 PM	#3 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Wrist-wrenching recoil and a 20% jam rate make this a gun that is impractical outside of first-person shooters. Don't even think about a follow-up shot. For self defense, it will rip through multiple targets, for home defense it shoot right through an intruder, a few walls, and into your sleeping kid in the next room, or the neighbor's house, where it will cripple whoever it hits. Even I couldn't use it for concealed carry. I'm not directing this at you, but I don't see this as being worthwhile for anything other than a theatrical weapon or a penis size compensator.

08-10-2004, 03:24 AM	#5 (permalink)
Stare At The Sun Eh? Location: Somewhere over the rainbow	Yeah... Unless you're Agent Smith, get a Glock.

08-10-2004, 11:33 AM	#11 (permalink)
ggadgit Tilted	Had a friend that had one, fun gun but it can jam, IMHO no pistol should be gas operated, recoil only, heck I built ar-15's that are almost lighter than that thing.

08-11-2004, 11:07 PM	#14 (permalink)
Tab Upright	If you check out magnum films and see what this gun to a watermelon, I myself would never want to shoot another human with this gun, and im in the army lol

08-12-2004, 03:53 AM	#15 (permalink)
SatanLvsU2 Upright	watermellon isent exactally someones head. Besides, there's a whole lot you might put up with seeing if someone was trying to kill you.

08-12-2004, 12:54 PM	#16 (permalink)
Tab Upright	Listen, the thing destroyed a cinderblock wall, do not tell me it would be a minor wound to a body. Yes in the situation if it was there Id use it, but still the after affects wouldnt be pretty.

08-12-2004, 09:09 PM	#17 (permalink)
SatanLvsU2 Upright	I never said it would be minor. Besides, it's rare that anyone has time to have a well placed shot in self defense, so the chances of you getting off one with that hand cannon are like practically 0.

08-12-2004, 09:26 PM	#18 (permalink)
whocarz Jarhead Location: Colorado	Well, I've seen pictures taken of corpses that had been shot in the head by various guns. None of them are pleasant looking, and I can assure you, if you shoot someone in the upper center of the head, chances are they will be dead. __________________ If there exists anything mightier than destiny, then it is the courage to face destiny unflinchingly. -Geibel Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

08-13-2004, 06:18 AM	#19 (permalink)
mtsgsd Addict Location: Wisconsin, USA	I shoot bullseye pistol, and one of our competing club's home range has a yahoo that loves to shoot his .50 during our matches. He's in an adjoining range, but the boom is still so damn loud (indoor range) that we all wear hearing protection even when we're waiting outside our range to shoot. As is typical with people who buy this sort of thing (present party excepted of course) he can't hit the broad side of a barn, and has a silly grin on his face the whole time. Bigger ain't better.

08-13-2004, 01:26 PM	#21 (permalink)
Tab Upright	lol never said I wanted one, just said it would be messy

08-16-2004, 10:47 AM	#22 (permalink)
zfleebin Addict	Has anyone who is talking about the wrist wrenching recoil even shot a Desert eagle? I ask because I have trouble believing that it has hurt them before they made it through at least 50 rounds.Personally, I think the recoil of the DE is entirely manageable and is probably half of a taurus raging bull .454 casull. The recoil also seems less sharp than most magnum rounds as well due to the weight of the gun. I also wonder where you guys have come up with this 20% failure rate. Between me and two other guys we shot fifty rounds through a desert eagle at one sitiing and had 0 ftf and fte. Now the accuracy statements I can understand because even being outside with plugs and a headset I was still shaken by the noise and flash. Still, I would say that the accuracy of the DE would be similar to that of a S&W mod 500 if not better because of the increased weight.

08-18-2004, 12:16 AM	#24 (permalink)
cheese Psycho Location: In your bath tub with all your other rubber toys	Hi, i have never shot the .50AE but my father does own the 44mag DE. i love shooting it its a blast. as forr the jamming rate,when he first go this 44mag it jammed ALOT. but he sent it back and the fixed it.. the spring was to tight. the ting is is there are soo many moving partsdue to the double locking chamber, and the specs are so close that if any thign is off justa lil will jam . typicaly a manufatuiing problem easley remeded by mag research. as for buyign the 50, i donno if i ever get a DE ( i want one SOO bad but dont have the $1200+) i would prolly go with the 44 or the 357mag. The 50 is to expencive to shoot nerarly a dollar a round. but yes the 44mag is more than manageable recoil. and fast shooting is very possable. we have a floatingdot for it and thats just fun shooting 4" groups at 50 ft ( witch isnt TOO impressive but if you have seen me shoot thats damned good)

08-18-2004, 09:57 PM	#25 (permalink)
NoSoup Non-Rookie Location: Green Bay, WI	The 44 Mag is extremely accurate - we were hitting 4x4 targest at 100 yards with it with a floating dot scope. As far as the recoil goes, I found it very similar to a .45, maybe even less due to the weight of the gun... __________________ I have an aura of reliability and good judgement. Just in case you were wondering...

08-21-2004, 05:46 PM	#26 (permalink)
Captain Canada Addict Location: University of North Carolina at Greensboro	I would own a Desert Eagle just to say I own a Desert Eagle. Definately not the most practical pistol for protection. __________________ Conclusion: Flamethrowers and Furries go togerther like Pol Pot and the Cambodian populace.

08-25-2004, 12:38 AM	#27 (permalink)
Dostoevsky Psycho Location: Macon, GA	I plan on owning a Desert Eagle someday, but definetly not for self defense. The Desert Eagle is just a big manly showgun. It's the firearm equivalent of a Corvette or a Viper. Not too practical, but a real head turning showstopper. I want the most flambouyant finish I can find in nothing less than .50.

03-02-2005, 08:47 AM	#28 (permalink)
angeltek Crazy Location: Regina, sk, Canada	I Do Not own one, but I had the Joy of Using one when I was In Israel. That thing packs quite a punch, and it's frinkin loud. I found that it wasn't that hard on the wrists though. I did have a army guy teaching me how to fire it though, so that's probably why. I also got to fire an m16, ak 47, uzi, .45 magnum, baretta, and a parabelum Auto the same day. DE was my favorite destructive weapon though.

03-02-2005, 06:51 PM	#29 (permalink)
ziadel Myrmidon Location: In the twilight and mist.	It may or may not be worth mentioning, that with the advent of the .50GI, those looking for a .50 caliber weapon suitable for defense purposes now have a viable option... http://www.defensereview.com/modules...rticle&sid=396 __________________ Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

03-09-2005, 07:46 AM	#31 (permalink)
krwlz Fledgling Dead Head Location: Clarkson U.	What I want to know is how many times I've seen a thread with the title of DE50... and Also how many times they turned out as a mirror image of this one...

03-09-2005, 05:42 PM	#35 (permalink)
Cylvre Upright Location: Minnesota, USA	I loath the H2, they look like a damn cardboard box on wheels...

03-10-2005, 06:20 AM	#36 (permalink)
kitsune Guest	i really like that they have videos.