Church

I'm probably walking into a shitstorm here, but I just happened upon this thread. I never go into this forum anyway. My question is, where do you live that you feel you need to protect yourself with such a powerful gun? I mean I've never known anyone thats had a home invasion, and even if that even happened, the robbers would just be in and out, not interested in hurting anybody. Basically what I'm asking is, what happened to the good old bat?

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Through counter-intelligence, it should be possible to pinpoint potential trouble makers, and neutralize them.

MSD

Don't bring a bat to a gunfight. Armed robberies are a lot more common here than in Canada, and a lot of people who do it, especially in urban areas, are gang members who aren't hesitant to kill you.

The_Dunedan

"Hot" home invasions, where the home is occupied when the bad guys show up, end up with the occupant dead in an alarmingly high percentage of such cases. This is especially true in urban areas, where the perps are frequently members of gangs. Trust me, a bunch of MS-13 'bangers aren't going to think twice about smoking an entire family to keep things quiet while they give the house a more complete going-over. They're notorious for it, actually. Frequently people like this are -very- interested in hurting other people, especially women. Gang-rape is a frequent corollary to home invasion in the United States; again, especially when members of criminal gangs are involved.

Home invasion, like house fires, is rare. The rareity of house fires doesn't mean it's not a smart idea to keep a fire-extinguisher around: the "one percent" arguement isn't terribly persuasive to those unfortunate enough to find themselves -in- that 1%.

longbough

I am a practicing physician in the California State prison system. My perspective is based on my experience working for the past 3 years. During my time I've gotten to know a few things about the criminal mentality. I've done so with everyday interviews and when I am involved with the staff psychologists in order to explore possible realms of rehabilitation.

There is a perfectly rational explanation as to why one would use a gun for home defense.

The idea of having a gun isn't to stop someone from robbing the house - material possessions aren't worth the risk of death or killing another person. A gun is useful in the event that a home invader is looking for more (e.g. rape) or is seeking to do harm to someone in your house. Believe it or not the majority of people who do home invasions are prepared to do violence at an instant - and some of them even enjoy it (that's not just a right-wing fantasy - it's true. It has to do with exercising a sense of empowerment) Many of my patients tell me that they never feared the police at all (for home invasions) since the criminal is gone by the time the police arrive.

What they DO fear is a big dog and/or the possibility that the homeowner is armed with a gun. Yes, there ARE people who choose to rape and kill for pleasure. I have met many of them. In my own home I choose to keep a gun in the house to defend my loved ones. It doesn't mean I'll shoot at every shadow I see - like anything else you need training and education to use a tool properly. A gun is a tool.

There's nothing wrong with a baseball bat - but a gun I find to be more useful. The majority of seasoned criminals aren't impressed with a baseball-bat wielding homeowner. In fact many of them aren't intimidated by guns, either. Have you ever swung a bat in an enclosed space? Do you know how to follow up after a wild swing? You choose your weapons. I choose mine.

Why a "powerful" gun? The most effective caliber is one that stops the subject with as few shots as possible. That's a practical consideration. I have seen many gunshot injuries in my line of work - including wounds inflicted by "gangbangers" and cops. Through that experience I have formed my opinions on what's an effective caliber.

For what it's worth I had an uncle who owned a grocery store in another state. One day someone tried to rob him so he just gave the man all the cash in the register. The robber shot him in the face for no reason. My uncle died that day. I'm not saying a gun would even have saved his life - who knows? The message is that there ARE people out there who do kill for no reason. It's hard to conceive if you've never seen it personally - but by then it's too late. I know of many families who only believe this principle after it's too late.

In any case, if you're interested in a logical explanation as to why an intelligent, educated and peace-loving person (like myself) would own a gun then please read the following link to this article I wrote:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=101330

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"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Kingruv

You've been given a platter load to think about.
I have to give Crompsin a hearty Amen again.
I've read your replies to what he said but I would urge you to re-read his advice on light. He is right on about all of it but his issue on light pushes him over 2000 score on the SAT's and maybe a 170 IQ.
At night it can make all the difference and even in daylight, some lights these days can stop a situation before the trigger is pulled.
Some of the better lights these days can temporarliy incapacitate someone caught in the eyes.
My vote goes for a 357 with 4 to 6" barrel with a variety of loads from 38's and snake shotshells to deer slayer carbine rounds.
Fewer guns have more versatility in loading except maybe a 30'06.

Safe sleeping to you.

SERPENT7

Training has been mentioned several times, and I would just like to say that IMHO the 'Mozambique Drill' (2 shots centermass, followed by 1 in the head) is the most effective way to stop a motivated adult.

The FBI did a ballistics effectiveness study, and found that even after having their heart destroyed, about half of all suspects were still able to return fire. Some of them were even able to incapacitate or even kill the agent that shot them. This should underscore the importance of accuracy, and the headshot.
To further make this point, I know a guy (Ranger in Grenada invasion) that has personally seen a man have his hand blown completely off by fragmentation grenade, and still proceed to stab his attacker to death.

Round placement is key. Pain-as-deterrent will not save you against a determined foe.

moot1337

Too right. Practice, and practice often. Your group sizes will open up like crazy under a stressful situation, and where you place those shots matters. Pistols do not have the ballistic advantage that rifles have, in that rifles can disrupt tissue not directly in the bullets path. Pistols rounds are limited to the immediate area of where they hit, as hydrostatic shock is exponentially less at lower velocities. Get something with which you can place a lot of rounds on target, accurately, and do that regularly. CNS hits count for everything when it comes to disabling a human target, and between the lower-than-rifle shock effects of a pistol, to the inherent difficulty in shooting one accurately, it puts the wielder of the pistol at a great disadvantage, which can only be made up for with intense training.

To give yourself a greater advantage, make sure your rounds meet the minimum penetration standards of the FBI - 12 inches in 10% gelatin. The larger they expand, the better - but only if they meet that minimum. Otherwise they may not reach a critical area, even if a proper hit is made. Never take risks when it comes to self defense - that's why guns are used instead of pepper spray or tasers, and that's also why not to use cheap self defense ammunition.

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And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
Oh, certainly, sir.

SSJTWIZTA

okay, got it.

i knew about the rifle disrupting more tissue, ive seen low speed footage and shots taken into gel. Its just the fact that theres not much room to operate in my house with a rifle, unless im in the den or living room.

if i do opt for a rifle, do you think a ruger mini 30 would work well in these situations. i know someone thats selling one and they are pretty compact.

i also find that im not to accurate with a pistol, unlike a rifle. so i def. need some more practice.

i was going to go to the local gun shop and see if they had a sw 686p i could test fire along with a 9mm m&p and maybe a .40 of some sort.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

moot1337

You might hate hearing it, but as far as I'm concerned, the shotgun is still the king of home defense. The shortest you can get one, however, is 18 1/2" of barrel, and possibly add on a folding stock - this is one reason with the most validity that I'd choose a handgun over a shotgun, in a very tight quarters situation. Shotguns are also heavy and "require" 2 hands to operate (you can use one and a forearm, or something, but you would still need to pump after the first shot).

Rifles need to make use of a longer barrel in order to achieve those velocities that disrupt a ton of tissue, which is their shortcoming - one of the reasons why I'm waiting for the Kel-Tec RFB: a bullpup semi-auto .308 which addresses trigger linkage and ejection concerns - the 18" carbine has a 26" overall length.

Even so, I may well choose a pistol for home defense anyway. They're maneuverable and harder to take away, can be used accurately with one hand, and can have a light (and laser) mounted just like a rifle or shotgun may. Shot placement is important with anything - just somewhat moreso with a pistol. That is the give and take of advantages and disadvantages when choosing a weapon - there are many factors to take consideration of.

More than half of shooting a pistol accurately is how you condition yourself, mentally. A very loud, sometimes quite concussive explosion is taking place merely a couple feet from your face. As a result, many people flinch in anticipation of the shock, the feel of recoil, and the movement of the pistol, thus losing their concentration at the critical moment. Your shot will be affected by how you move the pistol during and after the trigger pull, so you must learn to follow through, keeping the sights on target, and letting them return to the target after the shot is made. Relax, and let the gun do the work - its weight will keep it steady, its push from the shot will only receive an equal push from your hand, falling back on target when your wrists are properly tensioned and aligned.

To get a proper grip on the pistol, first doublecheck that it's unloaded, then place the highest point of the backstrap into the web of your dominant hand. Make sure that your hand is as high up as it may go, as more recoil will be directed backwards, and muzzle flip will be lessened. Keep your index finger straight, and wrap the rest around the grip of the pistol, keeping your thumb high, but away from the slide stop. Now place the heel of your non-dominant hand in the space leftover, just under your thumb. Wrap your four fingers around the other 3, lending them support, and place your thumb straight forward against the frame, keeping it below the slide. Put your dominant thumb upon the knuckle of your non-dominant thumb, and apply forward (against recoil) pressure with your dominant hand, matching that by pulling back with your non-dominant. You need a firm grip, but not one that you'd use to shake the hand of the devil himself.



If you've got it right, the pistol will move straight up and down when you rotate your wrists to simulate the direction of recoil. If it moves up and to the side, make sure the pistol is in the center of the web of your hand. Do not lock your elbows in a two-handed stance - instead let them move to absorb the recoil, so the pistol may move straight back and forward, instead of your shoulders forcing it up and down.

Checking that it's unloaded again, dry fire from this position using snap caps if your pistol needs them. Use only the pad of your fingertip, not the knuckle, and practice the trigger pull, watching how the sights move in your follow through, possibly placing the round off target. Draw to this position a number of times, so it's the same each time, and I personally guarantee your shooting will become worlds better.

-m00t!

__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
Oh, certainly, sir.

SSJTWIZTA

moot, your fucking excellent.

time for me to go outside and practice.

maybe i should just go with shortening the shot gun if this pistol thing doesnt work out. i only have 1 pump, the rest are semi-auto with the exception of the 4-10...but im not using that for home defense.

so, you think my browning 3 inch magnum would handle the job fine, even though its huge?

edit: i did an image search. this is almost exactly the same gun i normally go to grab when i hear sketchy noises.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

moot1337

Home defense is really something that has to be analyzed on a case by case basis - there's no weapon that is a one size fits all, though some have easier learning curves, and fit more people than others. There are several questions you need to ask yourself and take into account before selecting a weapon for home defense - what is your plan of action, where are your tools going to be, what are you securing, do you have light, how maneuverable does your weapon need to be, how much practice do you have with that type of weapon, how far away are the police, how thin are your walls, how close are your neighbors, how many shots do you have before a reload, what's the recoil, noise, and flash like, is anyone else going to be using them, what kind of experience do they have...

These are just a few of the factors to take into account - try to think of possible scenarios for breaking into your house, if home defense is in your mind. There's a ton of useful info on this thread and elsewhere. One further thing I'd point out if you plan on using the 3" magnum - make sure not to use magnum shells in it, with no smaller than #1 buckshot. You don't need the magnum power sending your shoulder flying in a defensive scenario. Often people will have many tools scattered through the house, as something will happen when you least expect it and are the least prepared - a dedicated HD shotgun is nothing to scoff at, but should not be the only item in your toolbox.

__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
Oh, certainly, sir.

JoeBlow131b

.40 cal is what is in my night-stand...

KirStang

I have a 1911 in .45ACP in my nightstand. A lot of good information in this thread--basically from personal experience, what I've found is to rent pistols at your local range, try a couple until you're impressed by one, and buy it. Any modern pistol caliber above .380 in +P JHP loading should be sufficient to stop an motivated attacker given the right shot placement.

Be sure to practice shooting with one hand holding a flashlight and another on the pistol--you see it in cop movies sometime where the dominant hand holds the pistol, while the support hand holds the flashlight underneath it. An instructor I trained under suggested using momentary on switches to identify the target, then switching off to avoid giving a large bright light to shoot at.

I've found that I can make 10 ring shots consistently at 15 yards with a 1911, so that's the weapon I chose. Good luck and be safe.

ItWasMe

If you can get ahold of a competition handgun, some are nice. I like mine. A .38 Super, and the kick is about the same as bb-guns I've tried. Maybe less kick than that. Only thing is, the safety switch does not automatically engage when it's cocked. It might be one less thing to remember in an emergency, but it's also one less thing a child has to do if they get ahold of it.

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"Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez

I bake cookies just so I can lick the bowl. ~ ItWasMe