Latch

I know there are some Gentoo people out there; hope to get some feedback from you.

I am currently running Fedora Core 1, but am thinking (well, less thinking; more going to) of going to Gentoo. I think I want to do a stage 1 installation. I chose stage 1 because I think I could learn the most out of it. I'd consider myself an intermediate-advanced linux user. Not expert or pro, yet .

Anyways, going through the docs they say a Gentoo stage 1 install could take a while. I am just wondering how long "a while" is, in people's experience. I understand that it will be faster/slower depending on machine being used and options given to compiler, but right now I think "a while" can mean a week, 24 hours, a month, anything. I have no reasonable limits. Just wondering what people's experience was.

Also, I'll be going by the installation manual on the site for all of this. Any other advice/experiences you wish to share that could help?

Thanks.
(p.s. I'll be compiling/installing on a P4 2.53 w/ 512 meg ram).

SecretMethod70

part of the factor is what you use for your GUI. The reason the site is so vague is that mileage my vary greatly.

Good call on following the instructions on the site though - I wouldn't do it any other way and I've installed multiple times.

As for how long, I have an Athlon T-Bird 1.4 GHz and use KDE and I would say it takes about 48 hours. If you sit at the computer and stay up straight and start each next step immediately it could maybe be done in 24-30 on my system. Emerging X and KDE is what takes the bulk of time in my experience - something around 12 hours.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Silvy

I run gentoo but without the UI...
It took me 2 days to get it running on my Pentium 166 (with MMX yeah! )
But I slept in between, it probably took 24 hours total.

It depends on your download speeds, and processing power.

A good choice on the installation docs btw. They are very adequate for installing. I consider myself a moderately experienced linux user and they got me through it in one time.

Have fun!

__________________
"Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace. "
- Murphy MacManus (Boondock Saints)

SecretMethod70

Same here. Everyone I know who has had a problem installing did so because they strayed from the docs. (Not to say you can't if you're more experiences, just saying it's probably not a good idea).

Forgot that download speeds are also a factor. I should mention that when I did a full Linux/X/KDE install in 48 with sleep as well it was on, at the slowest, a cable modem, but most of the time a university network.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Latch

Hmm, ok.. thanks guys!

I will be on a 512k DSL, so it may take a bit longer for downloads. I plan on installing X and Gnome. I may do KDE, or I may save it to see if I really need it. Some of my current programs that I use in Gnome are KDE-based (I have both GUIs installed), but I should be able to find suitable Gnome equivalents.

Thanks again! I'll make sure I stick to the docs.. sounds like I should be able to handle a Stage 1 assuming I have a couple days to spare.

sailor

Good lord! Any faster way to install Gentoo? I have been wanting to give it a shot, but Im not sure I can devote two days to installing it...

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

Xirax

Some of the iso's can be downloaded with a GRP install, which is basically precompiled packages. Take a look at the install docs:
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-install.xml
and do a search for 'GRP'. You should be able to find more info that way.

Any more questions, don't hesitate to ask!

__________________
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5,(41*2),sqrt(7056),(unpack(c,H)-2),oct(115),10);'

Silvy

The thing is, that everything is compiled specifically for your system by your system. Almost the only things that get installed are the things that you need for your system. If done right this is very powerful as it supposedly leaves you with the most up-to-date uber-optimized system. But this proces does take some time.

To be honest wether it is worth it is up to you. I mainly use gentoo because of it's very good package system which keeps my system up-to-date as easy as 1.2.3. I could have used debian for this as well, but I like the 'compiled especially for me' part and I had the time for it.

__________________
"Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace. "
- Murphy MacManus (Boondock Saints)

sailor

I understand that, but the system I would install to is a box that regularly gets blown away about every month when I decide to try another linux distro--the box is there solely to tinker with. For a box like that, I dont really feel that I need a super-optimized system.

However, I do have an old box that I use as my webserver. It is running RedHat 8.0, and I will soon move it to something else because I cant keep the system up to date anymore. I am considering Gentoo, and for that box, I think a custom install like that would be a good thing.

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

cheerios

how is the hardware support? I've got on-board graphics in the PC (aka random graphics "card" no. 463) & getting it to simply DISPLAY has been a chore in linux. right now, for example, 800x600 is all it'll do. even though windows allows 1024x768. I'm not the HUGEST fan of RedHat, so I'm a bit curious...

Silvy

Perhaps it's a good idea to try it on your 'tinker' box first, then if you like it, use it on your webserver?

__________________
"Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace. "
- Murphy MacManus (Boondock Saints)

Dire Baka

I won't say that I am a master gentoo user... Cause I'm not but I do know a little about installing it.

I used the stage 2 install after one failed attempt a while ago while installing from stage 1. From what I can tell (Although I am going to try a stage one sometime soon) stage 2 makes a nice bargain between speed of install and optimization for your system. Expecially for a first time installer who might not know all the keys used for the compiler.

My system currently has gentoo running as the master OS and WinXP running second. Once I am done with school and have more freedom with what programs I have to run I may try a linux only system.

Sorry if I rambled a little bit. The main point is ask if you have any questions.

and do use the install guides on the gentoo site. They are quite helpful

BTW I compiled it with a 2.4GHz 512MB Laptop in less then an afternoon... although thats just the core

__________________
I'm back!... Don't everyone jump for joy at the same time... Might cause an earthquake

Indecision really... um... yeah whatever
I still want my avatar back

kel

Why does compiling it locally help at all?
Assembly is assembly, no matter where it is compiled. If two machines compile the same piece of code in the same compiler with the same settings then the code will be near identical.

Unless you actually understand the operation of each package on the code level and tweak the compiler for that application, your really not accomplishing much.

__________________
"It better be funny"

SecretMethod70

Even by just following the instructions, you tell the compiler what processor to compile for and what features to include and/or not include. So, the point is, when you're installing Gentoo ideally you DON'T compile with the sme settings as everyone else. If you're not going to bother tweaking the settings, then that's what the stage 3 install with the GRPs is for.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

kel

The picture I get is that most people doing stage 1 installs don't even understand compiler optmization, much less how the individual packages stress the compilation/exectuion process. Because of this it is a waste of their time. I would wager that most of them end up make distributions that will run slower in certain applications because the applications were originally compiled with the correct space/time considerations by the developer/distro author.
We shouldn't be telling the new guys to spend time on this IMO.
The assembly instruction set is pretty much fixed. As for the extra instructions, I don't think they make a difference in most applications. Are there any benchmarks comparing the standard package vs. one compiled for that specific processor?

__________________
"It better be funny"

laconic1

When I did a stage 1 install of Gentoo the whole process took about 48 hours on my 1.0 Ghz Athlon with 384 megabytes of memory. Granted I don't know a thing about compiler optimization or anything else, but the end result was a computer that was noticeably more responsive than when it had a fresh install of Fedora Core 1. Their site has good info on USE flags and other settings to use.

SecretMethod70

kel, you'll find that most people who use Gentoo are not new to Linux...in fact there are many comments by myself and others here telling newbies to stay away from Gentoo.

The instructions also walk you through some of the optimizations. For example, generic compilations contain support for many processors, but just by following the instructions it's easy to compile things to only include support for your specific processor.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

kel

I never said people who use gentoo are new to linux. Don't put your words in my mouth.

I just said it's a waste of time compile it for a specific processor. It only yields a small performance difference because the PC instruction set has been fixed for years, the extensions that have been added aren't make or break in a desktop environment. They'll never notice the difference and it is certainly not worth the time it takes to compile it again.

And if you think you can tell the difference without a benchmark then I am here to tell you it's in your head or it is some other difference in the distribution. The sole advantage I see is that distribution will shrink, and that really isn't much of an issue in an OS that is already quite compact. You can spend hours and hours compiling and all you'll do is shorten load times by a split second.

Don't get me wrong, if you have the latest and greatest hardware then gentoo can be a real blessing. Emerge sync is god's gift to man.

__________________
"It better be funny"

SecretMethod70

Whoa, didn't mean to get ya pissed - that was just my interpretation of "We shouldn't be telling the new guys to spend time on this IMO." Sorry if it was wrong, but I surely didn't mean to be insulting or however it came across that made you so mad.

Either way, no, there isn't a huge speed difference. I don't think I've ever said there was and the Gentoo people don't claim there should be either. I have seen minor speed differences in some areas but overall it's not a big difference.

From Gentoo.org:

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

kel

I should add a ;-) I am just leery of being made a villain for having an opinon.

The real difference comes from the distro's default configuration. For instance at one point Red Hat installed with 100 processes running out of the box and Slackware at one point had only 30 running out of the box. Gentoo varies depending on the installation, but it certainly didn't have 100 when I started. Gentoo also uses some of the scheduler optimizations that some other distro's aren't using yet. I think these are the real reasons Gentoo works out better and seems faster/more responsive.

__________________
"It better be funny"

SecretMethod70

Exactly. That's the reason I like Gentoo and the stage 1 install. I get to make it so that everything rnning is only as I want it to be and that even the programs I compile don't bother compiling in support for things I'll never use.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

cheerios

wow... I'm finishing up pg 6 of the "how to install" and it's looking like it'll be tomorrow afternoon by the time this command is done running... impressions so far, 'cuz I'm sure I'm not the only one who was curious about this whole "stage 1, 2, 3 thing":
#1: the instructions are AWESOME. they've got just the right amount of detail. if you can't follow them, you shouldn't be, is the impression I get.
#2: I think This is the most friendly linux "installer" ever. it's something about the colors... the giant cow on teh background... something, that makes me relaxed, so I didn't stress when my "emerge system" didn't do what it was supposed to. turns out java was gein' stingy and i had to download a file for it. which leads to my 1 complaint:
#3: if there's the posibility that your users need to download extra files, you need to include curl, lynx or ftp in your install disk. Preferably multiple. 'cuz I had to download this java-doc file manually, then host it on my personal server... THEN wget it into the linux box (w/o a man page for wget I might add).
#4: ^---- they're NOT kidding. there's 72 things to install... I've been at it for... oh...3 hrs, and it's on number 12. well... I guess that's why monitors turn off

Latch

I thought I'd check in on my new Gentoo box. I installed stage 1 using the instructions. There were a few points where I was unsure of myself, and the instructions explained it all perfectly. They are great.

My system seems to be noticibly faster, or maybe I am just imagining (placebo effect). Bootup/Gnome loading is definitely faster, I recognise that much. I am also quickly seeing how nice the Portage system is. I am currently very, very happy with everything and how it went installing.

Thanks for the advice/help guys.. pretty proud of myself for getting a stage 1 working/running!

For the record, it took about 24 hours (with 10 hrs sleep). I'm not completely finished yet, but I have my basic system (XFree86, Gnome, ALSA, Samba, Mozilla, XMMS) installed. Also have some other things installed, but didn't take as long. I think I still have a bit of a way to go (currently emerging gaim/apache/xine), but I'm off to a (very) good start.

cherrios: Good luck.. you may end up reading this by the time you're done though. Not sure where you see giant cow, I don't think I saw one at all.. am I missing something? Also, for #3 I found my LiveCD basic had links2 on it (similar to lynx).

edit: Thought of another question I had.

I'm noticing programs in the portage tree can be older than the currently-released version of a certain program. That's understandable as it would take time to add the new version.... I was just wondering who controls the Portage trees to add new stuff. Do the developers of the individual programs? Is there a set group of people? Do users submit a portage'd version to a certain place and it's added?

As you can see, not a real pressing question, just curious.

Thanks!

cheerios

...and... I'm doen. didn't finish... bad HDD. that's what you get for free, I guess. have to get a new one and try again!

SecretMethod70

links2 is included on the Gentoo Basic CD at least- I used it to browse TFP as I bootstrapped last night.

As for the giant cow, she means in the background of the CLI. Perhaps some discs don't have it??

Cheerios, which instructions did you use? The new "handbook" ones or the older, but still up to date, ones?

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

cheerios

new handbook, basic LiveCD, stage 2. and yes, the cow is behind the cli, which is what I am so amused about. I've never had a background piccie on my terminal. For some reason i seemed to lose access to the CD when I mounted things up on the physical hard drive... links2 (which I used to download that initial file) was no where to be found, and believe me, I looked.

hey secret: do I need a bootloader if I'm not dual-booting? the guide makes it seem like I do, but I've never single-booted linux before, so... murky waters ahead... well, off to try this again!

juanvaldes

pssssst...

Terminal -> Window Settings -> Color. Option "use an image for the backgrond"

You can have cows all day long!

SecretMethod70

yeah, but the install picture isn't in a terminal.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Xirax

I'm not secret, but the answer is yes. The guide explains setting up both grub and lilo for bootloaders, and it's really a matter of preference as to which one you choose.

cheerios

thx Xirax I'm not retarded, really, I've never had a linux-only box before is all I know LILO from dual-booting, but I thought that was it's purpose in life, was to control dual-boots, so it didn't make sense to me, to use it when there was only one OS. thx for the clarification.