Baseball 2008
 

We might as well put a fork in the old thread and start new.

Word is that Lowell will get 3/$39M. Ouch. That's a lot of cash for a 34-yr old that has never posted a season better than 130 OPS+

Angels traded Cabrerra and cash to the White Sox for Garland. High price to pay for a middle of the rotation pitcher but that's the market right now.

Glavine is going back to the Braves, 1yr, $8M. He was just under league average last year. I think he has about a 60% shot at 200 innings @ league average. If he does that it is a nice deal for the Braves.

I wish the Red Sox would have picked up Cabrerra. The kid has a good bat and he's solid in the field. Plus he helped us win in '04. I always liked the kid.. oh yeah.. and he absolutely kills Boston pitchers..so it helps when he's on the same team.. oh well.

I'm not too worried about the Lowell deal. He said he would only go for a 4 year deal and Theo just wouldn't do it. I'm sure there are some clauses in the contract that the Red Sox made sure to have a way out of it. At least he wasn't stupid enough to go to the Yanks for 4 and play 1B.

A-Rod.. well.. he'll stay a yank. As will Rivera. Blah blah.. when am I supposed to care again?? They will end up in the same position they did this year. An extremely expensive 1 and done team.

The only players I'm really interested in seeing where they go are Santana and Hunter. Rangers are supposedly going to offer Hunter a 5 year deal. They need alot more than Hunter to save that franchise. I'm sitting here trying to figure out how the Red Sox could get Santana. We're overloaded with starting pitchers already. The kid is too good not to make an offer for though. I guess, we could always just dump Clement and maybe even ... Wakefield? Hrmm.. I'm glad I'm not a GM sometimes. Too much stress.

So what is it about the AL that seems to make more deals right after the season? It's almost like the NL just waits and see's what scraps they can pick up. Maybe I just don't notice the NL as much.. correct me if I'm wrong in that area. I mean the only real NL deals I've seen is Glavine to Atlanta and Castillo agreeing for the Mets. Not much news there.. Add that to the fact that the Torrealba deal is dead..

I don't think teams should be trying to trade for Santana. The cost will be very high and you only get 1 guaranteed year.

It's rumored that Miguel Cabrera may be available. He expects to be traded and as a result he might be trying to lose weight. If I was an AL gm, that would be my focus.

The DBacks need starting pitching. This year's market sucks. I don't know if the pieces will fit for them to get anyone that great. They certainly have the talent that could be traded but In don't see them wanting to part with any of their young hitters.

For the Sox to get Santana, the Twins would likely ask for Buchholtz, Ellsbury (to replace Hunter), and another prospect. I would endorse this trade if Boston could sign Santana long term after the trade, a la Beckett. I'm sure he would be looking long term for at least $15M/Y, but he's a proven commodity.

Ugh, The Halos need a bat, and they trade their All-Star caliber shortstop for a middle rotation pitcher? Ervin Santana was the only big question mark in their pitching rotation, and their emergency startres were just fine, any of them would plug that hole fine. Young pitchers coming from the minors are what the Angle's do best, why trade for Garland? Not only that, but Garland is a righty, if the Halos need anything in pitching, it's a quality starting lefty.

Chalk up another odd play for Stoneman (assuming he pulled the trigger). Meanwhile, the less-than-impressive offense just took a hit, because Cabrera was pretty hot in 07.

He'll definately be in another uniform come spring. It was rumored that the Yanks were looking to gain him until A-Rod sucked up to the Steiners. I actually wouldn't be suprised if he moved out west to the Angels or Dodgers.

I'd never go for that deal. Ellsbury is just too damn good to let go. Let's think about this.. instead of Ellsbury, you get rid of CoCo, Clement and hell.. even trade Schill if need be. You also have Henske that can be a good player in a market like Minnesota. I think it would be suicide to give up Ellsbury, Buckholtz and probably.. Kielty. Theo has always been about keeping a good farm team intact, and that trade would destroy it in one swipe of the pen.

I would love to get Santana to a 3-4 year contract.. but at the same time I wonder how he would fare in a big, hostile market.

I just read that the Angels and Dodgers are both heavily pursuing Cabrera and the Dodgers seem to be a frontrunner offering Kemp, LaRoache, and Kershaw (awesome pitching prospect). I think that is too much for the Dodgers, especially if you think Cabrera should be moved to first, where they already have Loney.

Santana should get at least $20M/yr. Zito and Zambrano both got $18M/yr. Santana is so far above both of them it is silly. Yes they were bad contract but they set a precedent.

Guess I wasn't too far off in my Cabrera prediction. I don't know how much is too much for the kid considering he's a production machine. The dodgers clearly need more production. With A-Rod out of the picture.. they really have no choice, and Florida isn't going to just take the fluff for this kid.

I read that Cleveland has secured Kobayashi from Japan. This could be interesting.

Kutulu, I agree that Santana should get at least 20M/Yr. The kid is just starting to peak. Oh.. so is Beckett.. how awesome would a Santana/Beckett combo be? :D

so is Eric Gagne gone now?

Pretty freaking awesome. Obviously teams will do their best to keep their aces but next year's free agent class could be amazing.

A.J. Burnett TOR (may opt out)
Rich Harden * OAK
John Lackey * LAA
Derek Lowe LAD
Pedro Martinez NYM
Jake Peavy * SD
Brad Penny * LAD
Oliver Perez NYM
Mark Prior CHC
C.C. Sabathia CLE
Johan Santana MIN
Ben Sheets MIL

That's one hell of a list of pitchers to be available as free agents at the same time. If most of these guys don't get extended by their current teams that could really help bring the prices down.

So they have, so they have. Now get a LF and 3B and we're set.

What? They are going to pay Bloworski $4M next year? Closers get all the breaks.

Do you really think the Twins would want Coco and Schilling for Santana? They might take Coco and Buchholtz and another young gun. Schilling's too old and expensive. Clement is no longer under contract. Minnesota holds all the cards here.

I would trade Ellsbury and Buchholtz for Santana because you are trading 2 unknown commodities for a proven commodity in his prime. That's how the Sox got Beckett. Actually, I think Hanley Ramirez was more valueable than Ellsbury, and Anabel Sanchez pitched a no-hitter his rookie year, too. I also think they have enough young players from the system at the moment (Youk, Paps, Pedrioa) that they can afford to let a couple go and restock in the next few years.


I think we will find out...wherever he ends up.

He's a free agent and Boston has no interest in him. I did here a rumor that he wanted back with the Red Sox. Stranger things have happened.

As someone who hangs out at Orioles fan sites, I've learned far more about Kershaw then anyone sane should possibly know over the past few weeks.

I'd be curious what people out in the real, non-Baltimore world would offer for Erik Bedard, Miguel Tejada, and Brian Roberts, since a lot of Orioles fans would like to see them traded and the team rebuild around the prospects sent in return (including the three Dodgers prospects mentioned above in a Bedard deal).

Yep.

I just wonder how, somewhere along the way, the concept of a reliever who can get tough outs in the seventh inning, then pitch three innings to finish a team off turned into a guy who can barely pitch one with a three-run lead.

Wait, no I don't. Thanks Tony LaRussa!

(And thanks to Billy Beane for proving how disposable "closers" are and how stupid other GMs are for focusing on essentially worthless saves.)

Next year is when I fear that the Yankees will reload. At least a few of those pitchers won't be signing extensions and will test the Free Agent market. The Yanks will be poised to swoop in and snatch a couple of aces.

After reading a few articles yesterday.. the Angels could end up seriously powerful next year if they play their cards right. They are in the market for Cabrera, Tejada and Hunter. That's alot of offense. I'm willing to bet they'd have to dismantle their pitching staff to achieve that though.

The White Sox are going to be major sellers this year. Hell they've already realeased Podsednik (overrated anyone?).

No I don't think they'd really go for the CoCo/Schill trade. They would probably take CoCo as he's a fast fielder who could cover the ground in Minn and he might even bat well in a stadium like that. I don't think you'll see Theo even pretend to shop Buckholtz. There were alot of teams interested in him last year and he just wouldn't do it. As far as Ellsbury goes, I think he could seriously be the future face of the Red Sox. He has that potential and he obviously doesn't fold under pressure.

I don't know about the Kobayashi signing, since the Red Sox have an affiliation with the Marines in the Japanese league, and he is 33 with a 3.6 ERA in the Japanese league, I have to assume that they looked at him and passed, but maybe he's a good fit for Clev. having him set up is smart though, less pressure. On another note, Santana on any big market team where he's not the only ace should make him even better.

Hunter to Angels: 5/90
 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3123200

Insane.

1) They already have five outfielders: Vlad Guerrero, Gary Matthews, Garrett Anderson, Juan Rivera and Reggie Willits

2) They already will be paying Matthews $42 million over the next four years, plus Guerrero's money.

3) They will be paying Hunter at least $18 million per year when he is 36/37, assuming the contract is not backloaded, when he will probably be a DH.

I think someone needs to teach Artie Moreno the word "quiebra".

So the Yankees are in talks with Santana. This would be a good move for them.. *if* they don't sell the farm. I don't see it happening though. They'd have to give up at the very minimum Chamberlain, Hughes and Cano. Santana is an amazing guy with lots of time left.. but is he worth giving up the farm??

Why not? Neither Chaimberlain nor Hughs will be as good as Santana. Also, the word is that Santana has said that he'll only approve a deal if it includes a long term extension. Therefore, the team that gets him will keep him. It sure makes it easier to part with good players when you know you'll be keeping him for more than one year.

I guess the only reason I'm asking is because I really hope they don't get him. Of course he's only one pitcher to beat but I'd much rather see him in a Red Sox uni than pinstripes.

It's just odd to me how invested the Yanks seemed to be in Huges and Chamberlain and now they may just say fuck you to the kids. It's almost as bad as what Boston did to Clemens. .. or not. heh.

Man, I hope the Yankees give up all those prospects for Santana.

1) It means someone will get desperate and give up close to the same for Erik Bedard.

2) Investing that much in time and money (through the extension), and players (through the trade), in any single pitcher is insanely stupid.

The lastest from ESPN & Boston media is that there are talks of the Twins sending Santana for Crisp, Lester, and 2 minor league prospects. WTF! Is this the best the Twins can do? No deals involving Buchholtz and Ellsbury? Do the Twins really want to trade Santana that badly?

If this goes down, it will be an early Christmas in Red Sox Nation!!

I heard today that Ellsbury was involved in the trade talks. If he's not then damn..that would be one hell of a trade for Boston.

Yeah...that's all you need to know right there :D

ok forget what I said. Theo won't trade Ellsbury or Buckholtz. Thank You Theo.

The package that would be sent to Minnesota isn't a bad one at all. The Twins get a fast center fielder with a great glove in Crisp. A good complimentary pitcher in Lester and two great prospects. Justin Masterson is a very very strong pitching prospect. Either way, Santana has a no-trade clause and can void whatever he wants. So even if Boston and Minn. agree.. Santana can give the big stiff to Theo.

The reason the Twins are looking at the Sox now are because of their trades with the Rays. The needs have changed now. They may even change again. I think we can count the Angels out of the Santana race at this point.. and if the Angels aren't careful they'll be out of the Cabrera race as well.

I cannot fathom what my twinks are thinking.

First we let Hunter get away. He didn't want money, he just wanted years to the contract, he was the face of our franchise for fucks sake.

I like the trade for Young, but the fact that we are trying to move Santana and we gave away one of our top young guns in Garza, I'm worried. We are now banking our rotation on Liriano who is coming off of a 1.5 year hiatus due to injury and fucking Carlos Silva.

I think the Twins should move Santana to the mets or marlins for the likes of Wright or Cabrera. We have a great utility fielder in Punto (although he is one of the worst everyday hitters in the league), we could definitely use a bat to complement Mauer/Morneau.

Will he be the face of the franchise when he's 38, batting .220 with a .650 OPS at DH and making $15 million? :D

And Silva's a free agent looking for Pavano/Meche money.

They aren't getting Wright (and the Mets supposedly laughed at a Reyes deal), and the Marlins don't want expensive players for Cabrera (or else they would just pay him).

As long as the Twins are willing to wait, they will get Ellsbury. Why would the Sox give up a chance at a dominating rotation for the next five years for a guy with 15-home-run power and a low .800s OPS?

Make the deal Ellsbury, Lester and Lowrie, and the Twins will have their replacement for Hunter's bat (Lowrie), glove (Ellsbury) and Santana/Garza/Silva/whatever you want to call him (Lester). Both sides win.

Adding a bat is what the Angles needed. Willits and Rivera aren't exactly 'starting outfielder' material, and they are both cheap. Vlad and Garret already have their payroll locked up, so whatever with that. Anderson has a tendancy to get hurt, so they have the DH option. Sounds like a good move for a club that is looking to contend.

as a twins fan, i understand the need to move santana. but seeing as how we just traded pitching for delmon young. and still have michael cuddyer, jason kubel, jason tyner, and we also gave craig monroe a shot; i would be really upset if the marquee guy we get for santana is coco crisp.
how about a third baseman? maybe a solid DH to protect mauer and morneau.
and if santana goes to the NL, he will be absolutely dominant, averaging at least 3 more K's a game.

I only started watching baseball this year - so I know that I might say ignorant things and talk crap... I still dont know the sport that well, Ive never played it and Ive only watched something like 20 or 30 complete games.

But I think Gagne will be a good player again. He strikes me as someone who threw/pitched fast... and now he has lost 5 MPH and he cant adjust straight away. Pitches that used to be strikes with that bit of extra heat are turning into hits. When he learns to throw with the fact he doesnt have the pace he did previously, I think he could be a great player again.

From what I saw, he was SHIT last year,,, but good players dont becopme bad players overnight. I think if he has time he can be a good 90 MPH pitcher, like he was a great 97 MPH pitcher. It wasnt an accident he was so highly rated a couple of years ago, he isnt a mug.

___

And as for Lowell, as a Redsox fan - with all that I said above still counting about being very new to this sport - Im glad they held on to him. He is a leader, and stats tell part of the story, but you need leaders on the field... when its going well you can do without them, when its going badly they are the difference between ugly wins and deserved losses. Who were they going to sign who would slot in and replace him? You dont just have to replace a competent fielder and a clutch batter, but a leader of the team. It takes more than running around hard and doing your best to be a difference in the clubhouse amonst a team of millionaires (which all MLB players are after 2 years minimum), and this guy IS a difference maker.

The only thing I'll point out is that, and you will notice this as you watch more and more, good players sometimes DO drop off the face of the Earth overnight, especially relief pitchers.

That doesn't mean that it will happen to Gagne, or that those players don't eventually come back in some cases, but it does happen.

Quoted for accuracy.

90% of the players probably do drop off overnight and pitchers I'd say 99.9% fall overnight. That's why the smaller market teams are offering fewer years on contracts and trying to get option years.

You look at pitchers like Bartolo Colon, Dontrelle Willis, Mike Hampton, Roger Clemens, Barry Zito, Matt Mulder. Wood, Prior and I have a feeling Santana will, especially under the scrutiny and pressure of Boston or NY.

But if you follow baseball, you can see the fall of some pitchers coming but it is still a sudden drop because you didn't expect it so fast and such a drop.

Colon, for example, worked too many innings early in his career, was a workhorse and pitched late into every game. His Cy Young year he was unhittable but in the end, his shoulder gave out.

Dontrelle, who knows.

Hampton signed that HUGE contract with Colorado and feel apart, he's still plugging but not half what he was.

Clemens age caught up to him.

Zito and Mulder should have excelled in the NL. Instead they have fallen apart. Mulder through injury Zito possibly through pressure, if Zito doesn't perform this year, SF really took an expensive bullet because the kid will have no value at all in the trade market.

Wood and Prior..... 2 words Dusty Baker, I fear for Harang and Arroyo.

Santana the pressure, look at his stats he can't pitch big games, in NY and Boston they are ALL BIG GAMES.

Position players look at Thome, Robbie Alomar, Albert JOEY Belle and many many more, even Babe Ruth just dropped at the end. Ty Cobb on the other hand never dropped off.

The point is 162 games plus spring training takes a toll. Players bodies all age differently and when the body goes they're history. Most end up playing wayyyyyy too long after the body has quit, whether it is age 28 or age 38.

My point is very, very rarely do you see a slow gradual decline in a baseball player, especially the all-stars.

After falling from World Series champs to below .500 the Cardinals have addressed their 1 need with the Izturis signing and will be back on top of the NL Central to challenge for the NL spot in the WS.

Just to touch on a couple things there:

I agree with the players decline. Just hop on the Baseball Reference site and browse random player career lines and you will see an enormous number of players that peaked with a single year or string of 2-4 years and then fell apart. A lot can be attributed to talent, but I think just as much can be attributed to that players environment. It could be a change in playing time, manager , the situations in which they are asked to perform in (mostly for pitcher-especially relievers), injury, etc.

The antagonist in the seemingly neverending Wood and Prior saga is not necessarily Dusty Baker, though it did nothing to correct the horrible career patterns there. Wood was ruined by Jim Riggleman and Prior has a history of being babied since high school. My take is that Prior has performed in a vacuum in which he had been told to shut it down when encountering the least bit of discomfort until he hit the majors and then was expected to pitch with what amounts to the normal aches and pains that come along with being a major league pitcher during a 162 game season. I think it's just a much a mental issuea as it is physical. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Cubs deal him this winter and be done with the whole situation.

Lastly, I agree with the Santana comment a bit. There is already some noticeable decline in his abilities and to be asked to perform under the constant spotlight that comes with being a Yankee or Red Sox he very well may wilt under the pressure.

If Izturis is what "puts them over the top", then it will be interesting to watch the entire NL Central go under-.500.

Mendoza thinks Izturis sucks.

While you are over at BR looking for random declines take a look at Prior's game logs. He's been abused at the MLB level since day 1

Looks like the Angels are trying to gain Santana now. They'd have to give up Jared Weaver, Brandon Wood and probably Ervin Santana or Joe Saunders.

The Red Sox still seem to be the front runners as Theo faxed over Lester's medical records last night to the Twins. If they are taking Lester, then they are taking CoCo and not Ellsbury. I think CoCo is a better fit for the Twins anyway. :shrug: Maybe it's just me wanting to offload him heh.

I'm wondering just how much the Angels are willing to spend this year. They are after all in talks for Cabrera as well. They are somewhere in the $120 million range as it is now. Guess the Halo's can't bitch about the Red Sox or Skanks anymore.

I have a feeling Cabrera may end up with the White Sox or Tigers when it's all said and done. Cabrera is good friends with Ozzie Guillen.. so there's some pull there.

Just announced...Cabrera and Willis to Detroit for Andrew Miller, Cameron Maybin and four others.

Link forthcoming...

EDIT: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3141703

Crooked Hat to Motown? Why wasn't Minaya aggressively pursuing him? :mad:

I'm still upset that they traded away Lastings Milledge. They could've gotten better players than that. He might as well put up with Lo Duca and Castillo if he's going to get catchers who can't hit.

Well, they have a first baseman, third baseman, and left fielder.

Told you that Cabrera would end up in Detroit :D

Detroit now has an insane lineup. In fact, it's probably better than the yankees lineups of the past. The key of course is their pitchers staying healthy.

The Marlin's got some good players out of the deal..but I'm not sure I would have let both Willis and Cabrera go together.

Look for the Red Sox to agree with a trade and go to Bud for the 72 hour window to negotiate with Santana soon. Looks like we may be seeing a Detroit vs Boston matchup in the AL next year.

The Dodgers are still after Andruw Jones.. who wants wayyyyyy too much money IMO. He's really not that great of an offensive player and he wants a deal similar to Torri Hunter's. The Dodgers are saying they'll only go for a 2 year deal with some incentives for extensions. He wants a 5 year deal.

Edit: I meant to touch on the Gagne stuff earlier. It's true that Gagne could perhaps be a decent pitcher again. However, it would have to be in a smaller market and he'd have to get his head straight. He's as bad mentally as he ever was physically. Boston offered him arbitration, only because he's a type A free agent which gives them a draft pick.

With everyone pulling out of the Santana talks, does the Min. GM not realize he is asking wayyyyyy too much or is Santana damaged goods?

From everything I'm reading either way the Min. GM sounds like he is trying to go for every little possible thing and teams realize it is just too much.

In the end the Bosox may get Santana dirt cheap because the Twins asked for too much and made Boston the only bidder.

Don't be fooled. Everyone isn't out of the Santana talks. Rumors are still there that the Angels want him. They just lost out on Cabrera.. so Santana would be a nice consolation prize. Also, it wouldn't surprise me to see the Yankees contact the Twins one last time. Since when does the Steinbrenner family bow down to the Red Sox? Supposedly the Yanks are also interested in Dan Heron.. but so is Arizona.

I don't think it's the fact that the Minnesota GM asked for too much.. I think it's just that the Yankees tried to flex their muscles thinking they had the best package and it just wasn't there. The only team that could match the Red Sox offers in the AL would be.. the Angels. As of right now it looks like the Twins are interested in package A from Boston which is the Lester, CoCo deal. Basically, it all comes down to what the Boston brass shows up with today (there's a rumor that Minnesota said to get it done today) and what counter offer if any the Angels can come up with.

I still think the Twins will end up with a Lester-Ellsbury deal.

From what I've heard, the DBacks have a really good shot of landing Haren but the A's want to wait till Santana is dealt.

Let's both hope that Haren goes to Arizona and not the skanks. Of course Bedard is still on the table, but the Oreo's seem to think they can get a Santana type deal out of him.

Most teams are waiting for the Santana deal to go through so they can see what the price is. They figure if Santana gets dealt to Boston and gets and extension right away at his asking price, then, with the #1 gone, they can up their prices. It's all a bit silly but I guess that's how the big machine rolls.


As far as ending up with a Lester, Ellsbury deal.. I just don't see it happening. The Twins aren't demanding both. They know that they can use CoCo or Ellsbury. They are more interested in what pitchers they get at this point. Even if a Lester, Ellsbury trade is made, then Theo can still shop CoCo around, because he would have to pull some of the prospects from the Twins deal. The two prospects that are in the Lester deal are monster prospects (much like the Marlins got yesterday) so it's really not a bad move at all for Minnesota to go with Lester, CoCo.

Theo is also shopping around for bullpen help. That's what I'm really interested in seeing..

Cabrerra's not Crooked Hat, Dontrelle is (or at least I see him that way). And they still need a #1 pitcher.

You know, you're right. I don't know how I screwed that up :D

Really.

That was a lame attempt at humor. Sorry.:sad:

But back to reality. One thing I have found rather interesting is that a couple of different guys (Jayson Stark and Ken Rosenthal) have reported that one sticking point with the Santana to Boston deal has been the Bosox reluctance to include Ellsbury in a deal. But I don't see why. Ellsbury is a guy who has shown ok speed and weak to moderate power through the minors and doesn't project to be much more than a average/slightly better than average CF. I understand he would be a capable starter not eligible for arbitration for a few years, but is Boston holding on to him because he had a good couple of months? It seems to me that now would be the time to deal him, while his value is high compared to his minor league production.

S'okay. There's just a lot of people who would have been completely serious saying something like that :p

He gets on-base a lot (.390 OBP in the minors) and steals bases both often and well. He walks as much as he strikes out. Plus, I haven't heard anything bad about his defense.

He'd be a good guy to lead-off and have in center field for a decade-plus, even if he doesn't have a lot of power. He's not going to be a star, though.

I think Boston is being blinded a little, but he was their top prospect according to Baseball America last year, so someone must think he's pretty good :p

He should be in the deal; I would much rather have him then Cereal Boy (which is Boston's opinion as well).

Well, some people argue that the people who would really like Ellsbury to stay in Boston are reacting to emotion rather than logic, but part of the draw for this kid is that ability to create that emotion. You are flat out underselling him by calling him a guy with "ok speed" and "average/slightly better than average CF." First, the kid can flat out fly. He's been clocked faster to 1st than Ichiro, and last season scored from second on a passed ball (or WP, can't remember). He has game changing speed, and already has great instincts as evidenced by his almost perfect steal percentage. If he's on first with less than 2 out in the 9th, you had better believe the closer has a full diaper and is not wholly focused on the hitter. He is also a very good fielder, not coco crisp, torii hunter good, but very competent. His arm is pretty average, but lately it seems like almost everyone has an average outfield arm except a few guys, and he's certainly stronger than Johnny Damon. Oh and he didn't puddle himself when he got called up to the big show in a huge market in the middle of a penant race, in fact he did better than most of the regulars, I forget his exact stats, but I think it was something like .340 while taking some walks. Will he still have some slumps? sure, will he struggle some when teams devote time to learn how to pitch him? probably some. But I for one will be a little disappointed if his plays great in a Twins uniform.

Andruw Jones to Dodgers: two years, $36 million reportedly.

Source forthcoming.

Did I seriously just read that Ellsbury has "ok speed" .. ok.. I must be high.. I couldn't have seriously read that.

Dude is super fast, and has the potential to be a great lead-off hitter. Certainly better than Damon and CoCo. While he may not be as great in the field as CoCo right now, he can improve that aspect of his game.

I don't think anything that Theo is doing is a reluctance to get rid of a certain player.. I think it's just that he's sticking with the philosophy that has won him two World Series. That philosophy is to get equal value and not blow apart the farm system.

Okay, sorry. What I meant was that I've seen that he's an "OK" baserunner. I've read that his footspeed won't result in the number of stolen bases you would like to see.

Basically, I'm asking if he is as good as he showed towards the end of last season or not. I know a large number of guys make a big splash when they make it to the show, but once there is a book on them and the league adjusts they come back to earth, so to speak. I know he's been touted as a future major league starter, but that could mean alot of things.




But to change subjects, is the Andrew Jones deal really necessary for LA? If they were going to make a big splash this offseason I would've thought they would have focused on a larger need, which is 3rd Base. It's obvious they are not going to give LaRoche a shot (even though I think has shown he deserves it), but with Pierre, Kemp, Ethier, Delwyn Young, and they still have Gonzo on the roster. I'm assuming Kemp/Ethier/Young will be involved in a deal for a 3rd bagger now. But if you are gonna spend that kind of dough why Jones. His D isn't what it was, even though he is still young (seems like he should be about 40 by now), and he has become 1 dimensional as a hitter and doesn't steal bases anymore.

The sad thing is that Jones' signing is really overshadowing the big deal the Dodgers made by announcing the signing of Chan Ho Park's minor league deal that was agreed two awhile ago.:thumbsup:

Well there is a big difference between a fast baserunner and a good basestealer.

he was like 9 for 9 in SB attempts, in just 33 games, what's that 50 sb a year with few CS, I'd say he is a good baserunner with exceptional speed.

Let me correct myself. I wasn't commenting on his ability, I've only seen him play in a couple of playoff games. I was just saying in general.

Baserunning is an art. You don't need to be fast to be a good runner. What you need is to know your limitations. With stealing, it is about getting jumps. Being fast can make up for it but only so much.

I'm really hoping Justin Upton shows good ability to read pitchers and get good jumps. He has blazing speed. It really shows in the outfield.

From what I've seen of Jacoby, he's a good baserunner. The kid is still cutting his teeth. Let's not forget that. He's a baby. The potential is there for him to be a leadoff guy who can be a threat on the bases. At this point, I think the Red Sox would rather have his potential than bank on a CoCo who has been nothing but disappointing since he arrived in Boston. The fact that Jacoby didn't piss himself in the big games shows that he can do it.. it just remains to be seen if he can do it for a full season.

The Santana sweeps are still hot. The skanks are still interested and now that the Dodgers have disposable depth in the outfield they are also interested. I actually wouldn't be surprised if they dangled Jones in front of the Minnesota GM now. Of course, nothing really surprises me anymore. The Gm wants to move Santana by spring training, and he'll probably achieve that goal, the question is just who is going to give up the most for him. The Angels are also still in the running. The Mets say they think they have enough pieces to land him, but when I saw what they were considering, well, I just don't think they do. Then again, I'm not real up to date on the NL side of things.

I'm also starting to wonder just how long other teams are going to wait to start moving their guys. Is Oakland and Baltimore going to wait for Santana? I don't think so anymore. They aren't going to just jump on an offer for Bedard or Haren, but I think we'll see them move before Santana is moved. There's also an new conversation between the Yanks and Giants about Matsui. That kind of hit me in the face, but I can see why the Yanks would move him; the only question is how much of the salary remaining can they pick up and he has a full no trade clause. The Indians are looking at Carroll from Colorado.. but I'm not really sure why. He's owed too much money and had a terrible season last year. Watch for Iguchi to sign with the Rox in the next day or two.

ok.. I sound like a fucking reporter.. sorry.

I was listening to Michael Kay on the radio and he gave a pretty good explanation why the Yankees won't trade Matsui (even though they should). For one thing, he has a no-trade clause (already stated). For another, the Yankees pull in a lot of money from Japan. The YES network broadcasts all regular-season games to Japan, where Matsui still has a huge following. If they lose Godzilla, that's potentially a lot of lost revenue for them.

If the Twins turned were turning down the offers that the Yankees and Red Sox were offering, then there's no way in hell the Mets can land Santana....not without giving up Reyes, which would be very counterproductive for them. I think they're better off going after Dontrelle Willis. Word is that the Tigers might have a hard time signing both him and Miguel Cabrerra.

Good point on the YES network. I didn't even think about that aspect of the Matsui trade.

Milton Bradley is going to Texas. I'm really surprised the Padres couldn't keep him. I was watching an interview with the SD GM and he was certain that Bradley would be back. Guess not eh?

Looks like Gagne will be signing with the Brewers. Good riddance you washed up piece of shit.

LaTroy Hawkins to sign with the Skanks pending phsyical.. big fucking deal.

Best news of the weekend.. Beckett was named '07 pitcher of the year :D Big surprise there eh?

Didn't Bradley tear up his knee at the end of the season? I hope the Rangers didn't pay top dollar for damaged goods.

1 year, $5million plus incentives. May not even be ready on Opening Day. Padres were only going with 1 year $4 million.

Yes he tore up his knee pretty bad.. so.. it could be a bomb or it could turn out to be ok for Texas. It's not like Texas is actually going to compete or anything ;)

You hear some stuff about how the Twins might try to hold onto Santana. It makes no sense to me. They aren't in a position to take the AL Central and the compensatory picks they will get if they keep him are nothing compared to what they can get back in a trade.

It was looking like Oak and Bal would wait until Santana was traded but I also am wondering if they don't act sooner. AZ keeps getting brought up with Haren. It could be that Beane actually likes AZ's package or that he's using them to get what he really wants. Anyways, some of the the players for Haren and Bedard are also players for Kudora (Az is a possible match). Once Kudora signs, he loses a potential trade partner.

I'm surprised the Brewers are going to pay Gagne so much ($10M?). BAD MOVE on their part.

I think $5M for Bradley is a great deal, even if he misses some time. He should rake in Texas.

Rumors are flying around here that the Orioles are deciding between deals and Bedard will be gone this week (with others to follow).

I was reading an article today saying that it's less than a 50% chance that the Red Sox get Santana. I think the GM for Minnesota is just not ballsy enough to part ways with him yet. He acts like if he loses Santana, then the franchise will just melt away and they won't compete. Umm, have you looked at your current roster there bub?? hello..

I wouldn't be surprised if you see Haren jump on board with Arizona in a couple weeks. Oakland has no real reason to try and play hardball with anyone. They need to make some offensive moves.. and do it now, not later.

As far as Bedard, I haven't heard much on that front. I do know there were something like 11 teams in talks but that's obviously changed now. What kind of money and players are you hearing dj? I know that the Orioles were thinking he could bring a Santana like payoff.

Oh.. just saw that LoDuca is now a National. One year deal..

Latest rumor (not that it means much, the way things change) is Bedard, possibly along with Tejada, to the Dodgers for a deal centered around Matt Kemp, or Bedard to Seattle for Adam Jones-plus several or Cincinnati for Homer Bailey-plus several.

I'm wondering if Milwaukee panicked a bit with the Gagne signing. I realize they probably do not want to have to go into the season with Turnbow closing, but there is still some time left in the offseason to make some sort of deal. It appears they overpaid for Gagne mainly to limit the length of his contract. If they would have been willing to go atleast 3 years they could have probably gotten him for a little over $20 million, but the fact they only when 1 year at that dollar amount shows me they really wanted someone else to close. But Gagne? You would've thought they could have done better someway.

Why?

He blew in Boston, but in twice the innings in Texas he had a 2.16 ERA.

He goes to Milwaukee where no one will ever see him and has a great year. He comes back on the market next year, people go, "Damn! Nice year!" and he gets a huge contract.

Milwaukee gets him for a playoff push next year, and he gets to rebuild his reputation. Win-win.

Tejada is going to the Astros. Pretty nice deal for the O's.

Supposedly the Dodgers got Kudora so they will drop out of the Beadard race. The O's are going to be loaded with prospects.

Yeah boy!

And if the Dodgers think signing a Japanese guy who was worse over THERE then Kei Igawa (reportedly, but still not a good comparison) will help their staff more then Bedard, they are crazy. That's like the Yankees saying, "Why should we trade for Ryan Howard? We can sign Hee Sop Choi!"

What I think will be interesting is whether Luke Scott is flipped with Bedard to get more from LA, Seattle or Cincinnati, or with Roberts to get more from the Cubs, or if he is kept as the everyday left fielder. He's 29, but will put up an .850s OPS with good defense, and because of how he developed will still be under Orioles control for four more years.

Rumor in Cleveland is they are very CLOSE to a trade with the A's for Haren it appears to be Adam Miller, Ryan Garko and another player probably Franklin Gutierrez or Jeremy Sowers.

Can you imagine a rotation of CC, Haren, Fausto, Westbrook, Lee/Byrd?

I would take that staff over any other in MLB.

I'd hate to lose Garko, Miller has talent beyond talent he just can't stay healthy, a change in scenery may do wonders for him.

But Hell, trade for Haren use the guys you kept for Bay...... and we have a devastating team.

Mitchell report comes out in a couple hours? Any predictions for shocking revelations?

I'm predicting Derek Jeter on the list of names. Anyone else?

I'll be surprised if Haren ends up in Cleveland. I just think he'll end up on a west coast NL team for some reason. However, if Cleveland does land him, that will be one hell of a lineup.. but .. let's just wait and see what happens in Boston shall we? ;) I'll take Beckett, Santana and Dice-K over CC, Haren and Fausto anyday.. of course I'm counting chickens before they're hatched.. but it's nice to dream.

The O's are finally doing what they've been talking about for how many years now?? They are actually starting to rebuild. Tejada is a huge question mark and has been for years. The O's definately got the better end of this trade.

Rowand in San Fran? I dunno that just seems odd to me.

Mitchell report.. I'm not really going to pay much attention to it, because even when the names come out, it doesn't necessarily mean they used the stuff.

Still, for the guys that are still playing and are named, their legacies will forever be tarnished.

I wonder if they will serve some suspensions at the begining of the season. Some teams may have some thin lineups to start the season. :eek:

According to many accounts Clemens and Pettite are in the report.

This is the list going around right now, unconfirmed:

"Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, IJason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood"

Now, I doubt this list is accurate enough to draw any conclusions, especially with the misspellings and double-names. If true, however, that's some big names that are at least somewhat surprising. Pujols, Prior, Dykstra, Kile.

We'll know for sure in an hour or so.

Alot of those names don't surprise me at all.. Garciaparra surprised me and to a small extent Varitek. That is of course if this list is accurate.

A few of those names surprise me, the biggest surprise for me is Wally Joyner.

I'm more surprised by the names not listed.... A Rod, Jim Thome, Bartolo Colon, the Giles brothers, Tom Browning, to name a few.

I'm very happy to see JR, Manny, Randy Johnson and David Justice not on the list.

I thought when they did Kile's autopsy, they didn't find any drugs.

Prior was called out by Black Jack McDowel years ago on the air after he got one of his weird injuries, this also explains by the Cubs didn't even offer him a low ball contract and let him walk.

Roger Clemens - hahahahaha, how shocking.

Pudge doesn't surprise me what does surprise me is that Magglio Ordonez isn't on the list (note no names checked for spelling).

Of course we need to remember these are guys they caught, not all of them.

Edit:Some are saying the early list wasn't correct, though a lot of the more obscure ones are on there and the real list.

Not saying Prior is innocent but the Cubs couldn't low ball Prior, you need to know your facts. He probably will not be able to pitch for a portion of next season and the Cubs would have had to go to arbitration to keep him. In doing so they cannot reduce his contract by more than 20%. He'd still be making $3.4 million and his future next season is questionable. Not worth it, especially for a team trying to be sold.

LINK: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/p...?urn=mlb,57634

Black Jack is one to talk..... the stories of him and his nightlife still live in Cleveland.

Ah didn't know, I don't follow the Cubs that closely.

I have to wonder if cNBC got an early draft of the list, lots of the same names on it, and several missing. Interesting if they were not on the report due to a lack of substantial evidence.

I have a feeling this is just the start. There are going to be players coming out to save their name and they'll take down others and management.

This could get extremely ugly for baseball in the very near future.

I just got through browsing the .pdf file of Mitchell's report on ESPN, and I didn't see some of the names on that list. Where did your list come from?

Here is a bigger list and the full report (400+ pages):

Allen, Chad
Ankiel, Rick
Bell, David
Bell, Mike
Bennett Jr., Gary
Bonds, Barry
Brown, Kevin
Byrd, Paul
Cabrera, Alex
Caminiti , Ken
Carreon, Mark
Christiansen, Jason
Clark, Howie
Clemens, Roger
Conseco, Jose
Cust, Jack
Donnels, Chris
Donnelly, Brendan
Dykstra , Len
Franco, Matt
Franklin, Ryan
Gagne, Eric
Giambi, Jason
Giambi, Jeremy
Gibbons, Jay
Glaus, Troy
Gonzalez, Juan
Grimsley, Jason
Guillen, Jose
Hairston Jr., Jerry
Herges, Matt
Hiatt, Phil
Hill, Glenallen
Holmes, Darren
Hundley, Todd
Jorgernson, Ryan
Justice, David
Knoblauch, Chuck
Laker, Tim
Lansing, Mike
Lo Duca, Paul
Logan, Exavier
Manzanillo, Josias
Matthews, Jr. Gary
McKay, Cody
Mercker, Kent
McGwire, Mark
Miadich, Bart
Naulty, Daniel
Neagle, Denny
Morris, Hal
Palmeiro, Rafael
Parque, Jim
Pettitte, Andy
Pratt, Todd
Randolph, Stephen
Rocker, John
Riggs, Adam
Rios, Armando
Roberts, Brian
Santangelo, F.P.
Santiago , Benito
Schoenweis, Scott
Segui, David
Sheffield, Gary
Sosa, Sammy
Stanton, Mike
Tejada, Miguel
Valdez, Ismael
Vaughn, Mo
Velarde, Randy
Villone, Ron
Vina, Fernando
White, Rondell
Willaims, Jeff
Williams, Matt
Williams, Todd
Woodard, Steve
Young, Kevin
Zaun, Gregg

I'm really not surprised by any names. I don't know why people would be surprised to find out that Pujols was using PEDs. He's huge AND his trainer had been linked to HGH through other players.

Another thing to consider is that there isn't exactly strong evidence for all people listed. Supposedly the section with Matt Williams was based only on newspaper articles (although Williams did publicly admit using PEDs)

john rocker still plays???

I don't think John Rocker's pitched at the major league level in years.

Yeah, there are a lot of former players on there. I don't think that they discriminated between current and formers at all and just named anyone that played at the major league level that they had evidence on.

I feel so let down by Paul Lo Duca and Eric Gagne. Well, at least my favorite pitcher, Greg Maddux, is pure.

Not necessarily, it just means he didn't get from the suppliers that got busted.

:no: Maddux?????? oi the greatest pitcher in the last 30 years was Nolan Ryan and you never hear a bad word ever said about the man.

Nolan Ryan was amazing, but Greg Maddux thrills me more. Besides, I only said he was my favorite, that doesn't need to meet any of your criteria. I enjoy the delicate nature of Maddux's pitch placement and his overall personality.

Thanks, but I don't recall seeing an offseason where Maddux blew up like a balloon.

Most pitchers didn't, you don't have to end up looking like a gorilla to benefit, it helps in your recovery time.

Now I hope hes clean, I THINK hes clean but due to how things went down, you can only hope and think, you can't know.

True Maddux does have the finesse Ryan lacked.

Didn't mean anything by it was just trying to add some smack talk and lighten things up for a minute.


It's going to be impossible (next to first person admissions) to truly know who did and who didn't.

I liken this back to the 1919 Black Sox scandal. The difference is back then the teams were reliant on people showing up at the stadiums... now the owners make more money from television, radio, satellite and so on.... none of this is really going to affect them financially, nor many of the players.

It's not like in 1919 when MLB had just fought a heavy battle with the Federal League for fans. MLB has a monopoly on the game, even the minor league teams make the Major League owners money.

So unfortunately as shown not too long ago, baseball can have a tied All Star game because the players don't want to play over 9 innings.... they can cancel the World Series.... they can tarnish the game in every feasible way and yet we, who love the game, end up still going and watching because we love it, irregardless of the tarnish.

I honestly believe MLB could come out tomorrow and say the last 20 years every World Series was fixed and we will continue to fix them...... and we'd still watch.

Same with the NFL, NBA, NCAA Football and Basketball. They hold monopolies, billion dollar contracts and we are a nation that has lost touch with our sense of true right and wrong and all we care about is being "entertained"..... this even shows by what passes for news (Paris Hilton, Britney Spears.... etc).

/ends rant gets off my shoeshine box and runs down to the train station to catch Shoeless Joe and Eddie Cicotte for autographs.

As I stated in the other thread.. this list doesn't mean shit. Most of the names are on the list by hearsay and by the two snitches from NY who want to save their asses.

Give Mitchell some power to subpeona people and then we'd have a true barometer of what the state of the sport is.

That has nothing at all to do with why the 2002 ASG was a tie. It was a tie because until that it was customary to make sure that just about everyone got a chance to play. As a result they went through all 19 pitchers in 11 innings. You cannot bring a pitcher back in after removing him, you'll risk an injury.

That is true, it was poor managerial skills and the desire to showcase every player.

Up until that time there had been 9 extra inning games (5 going past the 11th inning) with only one ending in a tie because of rain.

The point I was trying to make is that MLB and the players (any of the big sports actually) can tarnish and hurt the integrity and treat fans like shit and not truly care because they have their billion dollar contracts and the public may get pissy and mad about things but we still go.

Pro sports is becoming more and more WWE-ified, and noone seems to truly care enough to turn them off and demand better.

In my 40 years I have never in my life seen such little talent in any sport. It's easy to get great stats when the talent around you sucks shit and doesn't care.

In baseball, 9 times out of 10 a player signs the BIG contract and never plays the same again.

In the NFL they have tweaked and distorted the rules that so much as touching the QB the wrong way is a penalty. (Hell, I remember back when the Browns Turkey Jones picked Bradshaw up and piledrove him.... now, you slide into the QB accidently and a flag is thrown.)

In the NBA, I maybe a Cavs fan (somewhat still my least favorite sport) and to compare the talent today with that of the 80's or early 90's is laughable.

In the end the Mitchell report isn't going to matter, what baseball does isn't going to matter (they'll do something for show but come on they're not going to change anything, the union won't let them and they know they don't really need to).

The only thing that will change anything is if we all stopped watching (won't happen because even if they stated everything was fake we'd still go, because we want the entertainment and we just don't care), advertisers decided to put the ad money into payrolls or research and development (won't happen, the advertisers like their perks, we love the commercials they are almost as exciting as the game) and the major networks, cable stations and satellite networks decided the contracts weren't worth the money. Which won't happen because almost every major media company owns a piece of a major sports team or 2).

I apologize, this ran too long and I just needed to vent. Sorry if someone gets upset by the length.

Pan, I'm not picking on you, but I absolutely hate when people start talking shit about the talent of today and how much better and pure the past was.. especially in baseball. I would bet everything I had, that if Ruth were alive today, he would be a run of the mill player. The game has just evolved to that point. The game of baseball has never been pure. The game will always have it's super stars and super contracts. That's just how it is. Comparing past and present just doesn't work.

Baseball has it's faults as does every sport ( I totally agree about the QB flags). However, it still has plenty of beauty and merit.. which is why I still watch and will continue to watch.

You have 30 MLB teams, the talent pool is shallow. That's why we are looking to Japan, and overseas. But you are right comparing past players with modern players isn't quite fair. But who has the hustle Pete Rose showed? The loyalty of Andre Thornton, who in 1980 could have signed for far more anywhere else but stayed in Cleveland because he knew the Indians as a franchise would probably die without him (as he was pretty much their drawing card). To say the talent is better today.... is as one sided as saying the talent was better in the past.

Yes it does have its beauty and merits, as does any sport, but as I stated above; they could come out and say every World Series, Super Bowl, and so on has been fixed for the past 10 years and we will continue to do it; yet, the vast majority of us would still watch and cheer our teams.

It is what it is.... a multi billion dollar industry that will keep treating fans like shit and playing on their emotions and not give a damn about any tarnish. I may dare to go as far as to say the owners may be loving all the attention because controversy stems interest, interest increases ticket sales and ad revenue.

I don't think going to places such as Japan means the talent pool is shallow. I think it's just another revenue source for the big machine to capitalize on. I will agree to a certain extent that alot of players are probably just in it for the money and are lazy. There's alot that really do love the game though and they are in it to win. Maybe they are harder to pick out .. I don't know.

How exactly are the owners/teams treating the fans like shit? These guys go out there and play banged up and travel and are away from their familys.. for what? To entertain us? To win? I guess it depends on the player.. but I'm not going to be so selfish as to expect a person who is just like me with a crazy schedule to just entertain me.