That's my point.

Yes, I would love to watch Manny tear up the BloSux because I hate the BloSux and even tho Manny left for more money, he still has a place in my heart as a one time Indian.

And I will spout about the old days, one the song parody sounds great to me.... two, I truly long for days when teams were teams and you watched a player stay in one town like George Brett, Johnny Bench, Kirby Puckett, Tony Gwynn, Barry Larkin and so on, all, who could have left for more money, but stayed where they were for their careers.

Players who played for the love of the game and did the best they could co day in and day out.

It's not bitterness, it's growing older and believing the old days were better. Much like those who are from a generation earlier than me believe baseball was better in the 50's and 60's, and their fathers believing it better in the 20's, and 30's.

Much like many today will believe 20 years from now there are no Mannys, no Roy Oswalts, no Jake Peavys, no Derek Jeters, no Jorge Posada's..... and so on.

It's generational. It's not bitterness, it only appears bitter when you are young and don't understand people as they get older, because you have all the answers....

It doesn't mean I hate the sport or the players, I hate what the game has become and what owners and players have done. But deep down it's still the same beautiful game, just different on the outside than when I was in awe of the game.

PS you don't like what I have to say you can ignore me....... that would save you from being sooooo annoyed and upset by my posts and rants over the past.

boo fucking hoo.. the greats of the past have gone. they played in a different era.. when baseball wasn't such a huge business. if they had played in the same MLB that exists today, you wouldn't feel the same way because many of them would have done the same thing that many do now. they would leave to take the paycheck.

Look I understand the love for the game as it was and all that jazz, but to constantly complain about it does the same thing that big business baseball does.. it undermines the game. Even the players today who leave for money are still human and are always on the road and away from families and at the scrutiny of the media and fans.

It's really no fucking different.

The longing for the older generation of players is always going to be there.

If you ever get a chance to read Jon Miller's book (Confessions of a Baseball Purist) he does a whole chapter on these kinds of quotes from older players and writers, then gives their date (usually the 1930s or 1950s, when "today's players" that the writer is talking about are the ones older fans wax nostolgic about in the present). So like Pan says, in the future I'll be talking about (for example) guys like Ripken and Gwynn and (probably, as much as I would like to avoid it) Jeter and others in this same vein.

There's an awful lot about baseball that will always remain the same, no matter who is playing.

Of course, there are some things that should change...I'll take the numbers over the eyes of a bitter Indians fan any day :lol: ;)

But seriously, this is going to be a really nice set of playoff series. Rays in six and Dodgers in five.

Wow, you missed everything I said in he previous post.... almost as if you have other issues with me that you just feel the need to vent.

Is it because you just don't like what I have to say?

Then don't read it..... attacking me for opinions will not change my opinion... nor am I going to stoop to your level and call you names or degrade you personally. I don't know anything about you.... don't know you personally so I won't call you bitter or say boo fucking hoo to you when you give your opinion. Last I checked, as long as I was respectful to others here I could speak my opinion and not have to be called names {except in politics}.

But in all honesty, I just don't think you like me and you just have to degrade my posts here, because you get some feeling of control and of being a better person because you can get away with calling me bitter, yelling at me, degrading what I say ..... if that's the case.... then you are so much the smarter and better person Gucci.


-----Added 8/10/2008 at 01 : 29 : 24-----
QFT you understand, I see. And yes, in time you will wax nostalgic about the players you listed but now also about the Mannings, and TO and Randy Moss, Federer, and so on.

Nostalgia happens. If you ever watched the old Bob Costas show after Letterman on NBC in the 80's when he'd have on Billy Crystal or Meat Loaf.. they'd always talk about players from their youth. Back when Larry King did overnight syndicated radio he'd talk about the 40', 50's and 60's NY teams. "Old bitter fucking farts, get over it and yourselves," I'd say.

Nostalgia just happens. Me it'll be the Big Red Machine, the 90's Indians, the Cardiac Kids, Elway beating Kosar's Browns 2 years in a row, the drive and the fumble. It'll be how we had Price, Daugherty, Nance, Ehlo, Williams and could never beat that guy Jordan...... There were the Connors, McEnroe, Borg, matches. The Jack Nicklaus, Greg Norman arguments and later Payne Stewart, John Daly, Paul Azinger arguments with friends on the golf course.

I think the big part is that sports and your idea of the game stems from childhood and a little later. Then you get a family of your own, you work, you find other ways of entertainment and look back and see those players of your youth as something great because it helps remind you of that youth and the dreams and the less stressful parts of your life.... it's just a theory and an opinion of mine. May have merit, may not. For me, personally it does, and that's all I can truly speak on, my personal experiences and beliefs.

I also believe that this is why the Rolling Stones, Eagles, McCartney, Van Halen and to lesser degrees Heart, Journey, Tom Petty and so on still sell out or have huge crowds... even though their voices, their stamina and the players maybe not as great as they were in their prime... alot of it is nostalgia.

People as they get older think the newer music sucks.... my grandparents were Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra fans who liked a little 50's and 60's rock because they were exposed to it by my parents. With my parents, they liked the 60's and 70's music a little 80's because they had to but not really. Then there's me I like the 60's through mid 90's music and a little of today's but it's not like it was back in the day.

Nostalgia.... sports, music, life in general..... we grow up, get jobs, have responsibilities and new interests and when we look around and see those younger than us enjoying their youth.... we have to talk about ours and argue how our music, teams, players, tv shows, politics and so on were better because that was our youth.... that was when we had hopes and dreams and everything was new {in those arenas}. It doesn't mean they were better, or worse or even much different.... it just means that nostalgia reminds us of when times were simpler for us personally.

It's the way some who are rich may remember when they were poor and their marriages were "better". Or the way some feel that while they ma have the job they worked years to get, in some ways they were better off back in the day.

And some will understand with what I am saying and some will argue and say they will never be that way.... I argued I would never be nostalgic, but I found as I got closer to 40 and had my health scare, a marriage followed very fastly with a divorce, a remarriage, seeing a son that was 11 yrs old for the first time and then having him tell me to fuck off, losing my recovery dog, going to school and then losing my financial aid and working with addicts... all within the last 5 years... I'm nostalgic for the old days that seemed better.... Were they really? Probably not. I just had different problems then.

"Old bitter fucking farts, get over it and yourself"

actually pan I have nothing against you at all.. I just get tired of opening up every thread on sports and seeing "bring back the old days! bring back players who gave a shit!"

there are plenty of players today who do give a shit. you say you have love for Manny because he's an ex Indian.. guess what? He left Cleveland to go to the money..he left Boston to go somewhere hoping his options for $20 million a year would be picked up. This is exactly what you are ranting against.

The Boston organization and others have decided to go against this trend and they continually hone and develop their farm team.

I have no issues with being in love with players that you grew up with.. but sit down and really watch the game today.. without the blinders of business or nostalgia and you'll find that the beauty is still there.

and you know better than this. I have no feelings of some control. I called you bitter. that's not a personal attack..it's an attack on how you feel about the game. you can degrade my opinions all you want. So please, stop the veiled attacks and the martyr syndrome, and try to see the game for what it really is..

My dad gets this way, when an old Oriole or Baltimore Colt player dies, and he starts talking about how great they were. Or last year when the Wizards honored Baltimore Bullet Earl Monroe, and he tried to tell me about The Pearl, but couldn't find any words.

I love that.

I'll be saying the same thing about Ray Lewis and Brian Roberts one day.

And you missed the whole point of the last part of my last post..... why?

I give up trying to explain. But that part that DJ quoted and you seemed to just miss.... was very therapeutic for me. Guess I needed to get it out. Been through a lot in the last 5 years, tends to make one nostalgic, you know when life seemed simpler and easier.... wasn't but seems that way at times.

I could have saved hundreds doing that post instead of going to a shrink and in the end having him tell me the reason why my mom tried to commit suicide when she was pregnant with me was to try to kill me and I have never felt adequate since.

Stopped going after that.

I got tickets for game 2 of the Sox-Rays in Tampa.
This will be the first time I've been in a ballpark other than Fenway.
Paid a monsterous mark-up for the seats but what the hell...
Can't wait.

damn you Fotzlid!

you got the good game though.. hopefully your ticket prices will be met with a Red Sox victory :)

Should be a hell of a game. This is as close to a make or break game as a game two can get. The Rays desperately need a win. It's done if they go down 0-2 with Lester starting game 3. Neither team's O looked particularly great. If Ortiz, Pedroia and Drew start to hit like they have the Red Sox should really click. The Rays seem a little tight, but guys like Pena have proved that they have enough talent to get something going, the question will be can they do it with guys on, and can they keep the line moving. I don't see them putting up cooked numbers the way they have been hitting.

What a game that was. Too bad the Sox lost. We had seats 4 rows back in left field. I think there were 5 HR's hit in that area, though none came to me. :(

We were 4 rows back in left field. Fantastic seats.
Nice stadium too. I'm used to walking a maze to find the seats then having 345 people ask to see the ticket. At the Trop, we walked in the door and down a corridor and the section was right there. Nobody except the door person asked to see the ticket.

Where did all that talk about LA go?

Not much talk from Boston fans lately either. A loss from "Superman" Lester and they all clam up. Rays = Kryptonite!

I will say that I have nearly passed out at times from holding my breath while I wait for the Phillies to blow it. That being said you have to admit we have shown ourselves to be a resilient team.

I know a Rays/Phillies Series isn't what everyone wants... but, if you listen to the guys in the sports radio business, if we win it will end poverty and violence in our city and suburbs.

nah the Rays aren't Kryptonite. Really the Rays are young and talented but I'm not willing to give all the credit to them. Watching the Boston hitters, they are being TOO patient. They aren't attacking the plate and Papi needs to really start using his lower body again.

The Boston pitchers haven't gone inside enough on these young hitters. They need to make the hitters move their feet and make them uncomfortable.

Boston down 3-1.. hrmm where have I seen this before ;) There is a day off and then back to it. I wouldn't count out Boston just yet.. 3 out of the 4 teams to come back from that deficit are in Beantown..and they all have a certain color sock. ;)

This had to happen on my birthday

So the Rays are going with Kazmir tonight instead of Big Game James. I don't think I like the move. You have a rotation set up that is obviously doing well and then it's changed. It could also shake some of that big game confidence from James Shields. Tonights game is the most important of their franchise career and they go with someone else just in case they need the bullpen... I don't understand Maddon..

but.. then I'm not exactly complaining :) Kazmir hasn't exactly been lights out in his past few starts.. this may be just what the Bo'Sox need to get their offense on the right track.

Wow, Boston's got a li'l bit of fight left in 'em. Will it be enough to force the Rays all the way into a Game 7?

that's a good question Quasi. I'm not convinced that Papi is Papi yet.. but I think what this does is give the Red Sox the huge boost that they need. With Beckett hopefully back to somewhat of a normal routine, I expect him to be more like his old self tomorrow. The Red Sox finally did what I've been saying all along and that was attack the plate and the pitchers. They fought off pitches instead of looking for help from the ump and it payed off in the end. I'm not a big CoCo fan but that was probably the best AB I've ever seen from him.

I wonder if these young kids on the Rays can overcome such a heartbreak loss. It took Boston until last night to get over Game 2. I guess we'll see just how Big Game Shields really is.

Wow is all I have for last night. To all the fans who left early.. fuck you you fucking sellouts.

On an unrelated note:
ESPN - Peavy has five teams in mind; Padres expanding potential - MLB

Am I missing something here? Why are the Padres so hot to trade away Jake Peavy>

1. He's going to start getting expensive.

2. They need a lot of help on that team.

I don't like it. Sounds like they're robbing peter to pay paul.

Look at the Bedard deal from last offseason. Or the Santana deal. Both teams that traded their ace did well enough without them.

The answer to your question is yes. Now will momentum count for anything, and can the Red Sox win their 3rd straight? Conventional Wisdom says that Lester won't have 2 straight bad outings, but pretty much everyone is completely gassed at this point in the season. Look at Paplebon, he could barely get his fastball into the low 90's. Same goes for Garza, of course, so it should be a great winner take all game.

Or the CC deal during the season...... the Indians did far better without him.

I don't know if the emotion I'm feeling right now is excitement for the Rays or schadenfreude for the Red Sox...

Looking back at this series, I'd have to say the Red Sox lost it, not the Rays won it. Now, I'm not trying to take anything away from the Rays because they played well enough, but Boston with the exception of game 5 and 6, just didn't look like Boston. Throwing out the injuries and Manny being gone (if either of those hadn't happened they wouldn't be home right now) I just think that overall Boston lost sight of what they wanted to do. They continually left men on base, they continually didn't execute the running game and they continually didn't attack the plate. Last night, Lester really only had one mistake to Aybar. The double that Longoria hit was just great hitting. Garza pitched well, but the Red Sox didn't help themselves in that regard either.

I'm quite interested to see how Boston retools for next year. They seriously have to consider getting some more power in the lineup, because frankly, nobody is scared of Bay or Youk like they are scared of Manny.

The world series won't be as good with the current matchup, but I'll be rooting for the Rays for 2 reasons. 1. Baldelli - he grew up in New England and was (and probably still is) a Red Sox fan. 2. Pena - he also moved to Boston at a young age and played high school ball there.. so I guess if Tampa wins it, in some small non-redeeming way, hardware gets to stay in Boston.

I guess now I know how Yankees fans feel. Supposed to win it and we don't make it to the Series.

Is anybody else not interested in the world series at all?

I watched a few innings.. I just can't help but feel that it would have been better with Boston in it.

and the Dodgers.

this is just one of those years.. where in the end..it doesn't matter except in Vegas and things will be back to normal next year.

*Theo is thinking about making a run for Peavy. Doubt he'll leave the NL though.

Your teams aren't in it, of course you don't care... My team is in it so I do care.

What is normal? Does normal mean either Boston or NY are in there for the AL?

nah, normal would be that the rays would be last place :lol:

I get it... and it's a good story.. it's just from a ratings standpoint.. it's blah. It should be a competitive series and all, but I think it's going to lack that excitement. :shrug:

I understand the ratings thing but damnit!!!11oneone I have been waiting since 1983 (I was 6 at the time) for my city to win a championship of any sort.

You can have your trophy back next year... just let Philly hold it for a few minutes.

I want to see who is the champion of the sport I love.

We know the Rays beating the Sox isn't a fluke. They won the head-to-head season series, the division, AND the playoff series. The Phillies were the second-best team in their league, and their previous opponent, as good a story as it was, was by record the eighth-best team in their league.

We have a team with a chance to be the first to go from absolute worst in their league to absolute best. We have a team with one of the longest histories in sports, with a chance to win only their second championship for a city that hasn't seen one (from a real sport) in 25 years. At that's just on the surface.

The World Series isn't about who's watching. It is about finding out who the best team is in the sport (with obvious flaws in the system), so TV ratings don't mean a damn thing to me :p

I was at work and I flipped to watch the last inning. I was mortified the sport I love has been fucked over. I can recall very few true "oops" calls in the WS, that truly affected the outcome of the game. There have een a few these past couple years but none more apparent than tonight's non call.

The one where Rollins clearly got hit by the pitch is the huge one. Add that to the non balk call of last night. And to me, who has watched baseball all my life, it says the games are either fixed or the umpires are truly bad at their jobs.

I have come to the conclusion that pro sports is fixed with that call. MLB now has instant replay and could have done something about that but chose not to.

NFL refs making "mistakes", NBA refs on the take and now MLB umps not making the right calls......

I truly have become tired of professional sports. Too many scandals, too many refs and umps on the take.... too many games where the "mistakes" are so obvious it is almost apparent the game is fixed. Too many games where teams don't cover the spread and could have kicked that field goal in the final minute but instead ran the clock out saying it was "poor coaching and time management". Cough cough.... Browns vs Steelers... cough cough

Or a player who reported no injury, poked himself in the eye before a big game, with a division rival that is also without a win.Then all of a sudden, said player "is battling elbow problems from the game before that" and has missed every game since. cough cough Carson Palmer cough cough.... The annonoucers on the Cleveland radio network talked about it the whole game. Asking "how could someone knowing this was a big game poke himself in the eye and miss it."

Or a team that suspends arguably their best and most consistent offensive player due to his "disruption" to the team...... cough cough Browns cough cough..... there was no disruption, K2 simply asked why Phil Savage never called him in the hospital and that he felt like a piece of meat. Also, how many players get staph infection and miss only 1 game???????? Something is fishy there. Even Cleveland radio announcers on the station that carries the game are questioning why.

I wonder if people looked deep enough, if they would see huge bucks put on the Rays tonight.

I wonder if people look deep enough that they may find there is some money on say.... the Rays in 6 and by hook or crook the series goes 6. Dick Jacobs back in the 90's once stated about the Indians... "MLB owners actually lose money on the playoffs and WS unless it goes more than 5."

Maybe it's time for fans to really look into these sports.

I'm sure someone will rip into me for this..... but seriously, when even the fucking announcers point this bullshit out and nothing is done..... it all makes one wonder.

And the problem is, that the wonder is there. Not if it the games are truly legit or not... but that the fans wonder if the are.

I speak of what I know, I'm sure other cities and teams have stories very similar to those going on in Cleveland sports right now.

And I won't even touch what is going on with college sports.

lol Pan... you missed the called third strike/check swing/appeal to first/walk in the early part of the game.

No way.... what exactly happened and who benefited?

yeah that third strike call was horrible.

Ok.. philly you can hold the trophy for a little while :p

if you get past Tampa.


Pan. For once I'll agree with you..............partly. Vegas has been doing everything they can to even out the odds because of the 100-1 chance that Tampa would win it. They stand to lose huge amounts of money. so in that aspect I'll agree.. the rest of it.. well we both know where we both stand on those issues ;)

I forget who was batting for Tampa... but it was a 3-2 pitch that the ump called a strike on a check swing and then appealed to first base ump. He said no swing when a) he did go around and b) it was a called strike.

I think Manuel was a little too calm and lost a chance to get his team fired up. Yes he would have gotten ejected but that is nothing new for him.

I was interested in the Diamondbacks vs Yankees. I was interested in Angels vs Giants. My team wasn't involved, but I was interested.

Phillies and Rays? Pass.

Why?

Two teams that had great years (no wild-cards or 83-win teams), very young with most of their stars signed long-term and who could be around as contenders for a while, and the stories of which I already touched upon?

Things like this confuse me, especially since you mention two other series' you were interested in.

I think the problem with both teams is that neither has any real story going on. The Rays may be the more interesting of the two teams, but we've only had a year to even get to know them. They're a new franchise comprised of unknown young upstarts. When the Diamondbacks played the "brand new franchise in the world series" role, they were stocked with veterans who have histories and fans, and two of the most dominant pitchers of their generation. The Phillies have.. who? Howard? Rollins? These stars aren't even producing and they're winning games with their other people. Nothing is more boring than a team that has a few all-stars and then a huge talent dropoff with the rest of their players.. and only Hamels seems to be performing like a headliner. So you ask yourself how they managed to even get here. How?

Either the Cubs or the Dodgers should be representing the NL, and either the Angels or Redsox should be representing the AL. It would be so much more interesting and it would feel so much more right.

Maybe MLB should just reduce the number of teams and leave only the ones that you deem "worthy" of being in the World Series. Problem solved.

The Dodgers had a mediocre year in a mediocre division and got beat by a better team in the playoffs. The Cubs... well they are just the Cubs.

Tampa had a great year in a tough division and beat Goliath (Boston) in the regular season AND the playoffs.

Philly started off hot and really stalled over the rest of the season. They have had 1 or 2 players that get hot at a time and win the games for them. They STILL won 92 games and beat (get this) the Dodgers in the playoffs.

To say that these 2 teams shouldn't be in the WS is just wrong. They earned their spot there. If you don't care about the games then all I can say is tune out until next year.

Hopefully these 2 young teams will see each other again next year in the WS and then you can have the story that you need so bad... or not.

But that IS their story. A team of that has had no success in the past suddenly finding themselves having legitimate success with more extremely young talent than possibly any baseball team ever.

Which was THEIR story. Teams don't have to have the same story all the time, or else it gets boring.

Seriously? If the Dodgers had made it, but Manny and Loney and Ethier went into slumps, would they suddenly be "The Dodgers have...who?"

By being the second-best team in their league, and winning two playoff series. Same way the Cubs would have got there (except they were the best team in the NL) or the Dodgers (except they were the worst playoff team since the 2006 Cardinals by record).

You really need to explain this comment, because it makes no sense. Do you believe that the Rays and Phillies should not be ALLOWED to make the World Series? Or that a team that hasn't made the World Series in almost 65 years (the Cubs) feels more "right" then a team that has been there four times in that same span while being one of the worst (historically speaking) teams in professional sports?

You sound like a Yankees fan, and that's NOT a compliment :lol:
-----Added 25/10/2008 at 03 : 20 : 13-----
Yeah, and they didn't have to luck into a Hall-of-Famer with a grudge and a terrible division to do it ;)

All I'm saying is that this year's world series teams are there by some bad storytelling fluke.

All i'm saying is that this is our year to finally win it. Even if there is no appeal outside of the 2 home teams markets and baseball nuts err... fanatics.

Only for someone who doesn't appreciate a good story. Or the best teams winning.

Philly will win tonight..

yay..

now we can finally get over this year and get things straightened out for next year :p

Only two days behind :lol:

and the trade talks begin..

so far 65 players have opted in the free agent market including Ben Sheets, Manny, Varitek and Milton Bradley.

Delgado had his option picked up by the mets.. no brainer there.

Teixeira and Cora are out there as well. There is a wealth of talent on the market right now. Some teams are going to be loaded next season. It will be interesting to see the makeup of some teams as the players get signed.

Boston for one has some issues with Cora and Tek, but I won't be surprised if they make a move for Tex and keep Tek. The only thing they need is some bullpen help as they should have the starting rotation intact for next year including Buckholz who is doing well in the Fall league. They'll probably pick up Wake's $4 mil option which is dirt cheap. They just need a big bat again.. and Tex can certainly fill that. Of course they would have to do something with Lowell or Youk.. I'd hate to be in Theo's shoes right now.

It isn't the fault of the Phillies that you don't know their team. They were a great team this year, 2nd in runs scored, tied for 2nd in runs allowed. Whatever dropoff you see in talent is a lack of understanding about who they are.

Dodgers make a 2 year $45 million offer to Manny with a third year option. I doubt this will get him though. He wants more money.. and so does Boras.

Peavy is being courted by the Braves, Cubs and Dodgers. The Cubs look like they are in the front position on this deal. Atlanta doesn't want to give up young talent.. Dodgers could end up with him to replace Penny.

Things are starting to happen.. and I think Peavy will be dealt within a month.. the rest of the field.. not so fast.

I don't think the Pads will trade Peavy to the Dodgers.

Phillies are possibly looking to trade for Holliday from the Rockies. The trade might have to involve Shane Victorino which is not a great idea IMO. They do have a fast young outfielder in the minors but who knows if he is ready and able.

They are also looking at Japanese pitcher Junichi Tazawa but so are the Braves.

I agree. Trading your best pitcher to a division rival would be a really stupid move. I don't think that the Pads are stupid.

As expected, the Mets are preparing to make a move on closer Francisco Rodriguez, with offers for Kerry Wood or Brian Fuentes in the works should things with K-Rod fall though.

Orioles are rumored to be in on Khalil Greene, which would be interesting if he could come inexpensively. Get him out of Petco and he looks like a pretty good hitter with pretty good defense.

He's third on my off-season wish list behind A.J. Burnett and the fourth-greatest player ever to come out of Baltimore.

I think you are right, however, from what I hear the Padre's are just wanting to see who will give up the most. If the Dodgers send enough young talent to the table, the Pads may just send Peavy there. Stranger things have happened.

Willie Randolph has signed on with the Milwaukee Brewers to be their new bench coach. If they manage to hold on to Sabathia, they might be a force in the N.L. Central next year.

Colorado traded outfielder Matt Holliday to Oakland for pitchers Greg Smith and Huston Street, and outfielder Carlos Gonzalez (supposedly).

I think that Holliday trade was killed.

*edit*

Guess not.

looks like the Dodgers are prepared to up their deal to Manny with a guaranteed 3 years.

the Halos are reportedly not interested in resigning K-Rod, and are looking to make an offer to Manny as well. Not sure how they can afford to go after Manny and Tex.. but I guess they have something planned.

Braves look like they will get Peavy..

well today is the day where offers should be flying like crazy.. interested in what the Angels want to offer Manny as well as what the skanks want to offer CC. I think they will offer CC somewhere around 140 million..

I don't even care if the skanks land him.. he will be just another yankee pitcher who is overpaid and under performs :p

I'm hearing reports that the Mets are putting together an offer for Sabathia as well.

Why?

Does Minaya not realize that the Wilpons' money is better spent in the bullpen? Or on a second baseman? Or even an outfielder?

Tell me again why Willie Randolph was fired?

the mets are probably thinking about the one two combo of Santana and CC. don't think it will work.. but..




and yes you are spot on

I'm sorry, at the risk of sounding bitter.... we are in the middle of a fucking recession, our government needs to bail out the banking and automobile industries, millions are trying to just make it and MLB owners, players, agents want to start outrageous bidding wars??????

Fuck that, fuck baseball, fuck the players. Maybe some of them need to see what it's like to try to make real money and fight to keep what you have. Maybe some of them need to truly get their fucking heads right and say, "hey, the country is not doing to great, the stock market is in the shitter, GM, Chrysler, Ford workers maybe losing jobs, there are people losing everything..... maybe I can take a few MILLION less."

Maybe the owners can say, "Ya know what fans, we respect you, so instead of playing who has more money.... we're not going to have these outrageous bidding wars.... we'll cut salaries so we don't have to raise prices during these times of hardship."

Maybe Fox, ESPN and the broadcasters can say, "Ya know what, ad revenue is going to decrease massively if the car companies and several other industries can't spend, so we're going to really cut back on what we pay MLB for their rights because, well.... we're not going to make money on them and we're not going to condone their spending and watch haves and have not teams. The ratings are down, revenue is going to be decreasing... naw, we'll just find some other events to televise."

DEATH TO THE FUCKING MLB AND AND PLAYER'S UNION.... DEATH TO GREEDY FUCKING SCUM BAGS WHO DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE FANS..... DEATH TO THE INDUSTRY.... FUCK YOU ALL..... YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE FANS... GO TO JAPAN OR KOREA.

YOU WANT EVERY LAST PENNY WHILE PEOPLE ARE LOSING EVERYTHING??????? FUCK YOU ALL.

Sorry but had to rant..... it's fucking making me sick.

:uhh:

Tell me this, in all honesty....

How can anyone justify the spending and salaries? The car companies are needing bailed out, advertising is going to be nil, tv revenue will be decreasing, MOST cities will see attendance decline dramatically, people are losing jobs, retirees benefits, millions are fighting to just make a living.....

So how do you justify it?

People are still willing to pay for the product.

Where? What cities showed growth in ticket sales this year? And maybe Milwaukee or Tampa if they did, probably peaked only because of the team this year. Milwaukee without Sheets and Sabathia doesn't stand a chance to contend.... and I seriously doubt they can outspend the big boys. So Milwaukee is pretty much done.

What cities have populations that have money to sell 2 or 3 million tix anymore? Cleveland? Cincy? Pittsburgh? Detroit? KC, Denver, Oakland, San Fran, Philly? Even St Louis, Miami, Houston, Denver and so on are hurting.

You are going to have disparity that will kill franchises, that will pretty much leave mid market to even low end high market clubs dead.

It was not that long ago, MLB was telling the press and fans that a few clubs were barely able to make payroll.

Look, you can only bleed fans so much before the money dries up, so why continue to push your luck?

You say, "there's a recession, teams are hurting, for the good of the sport and to show fans who are hurting financially respect we're not pushing the bar up this time around. When the economy gets better, we'll open our wallets again, but right now, nope."

Look, without ad revenue, the broadcasts make no money. The car companies and beer are the 2 biggest advertisers for baseball. The car companies are broke, and Busch just sold out. The advertising dollar is not going to be there. So Fox, ESPN, and to lesser degrees WGN, TBS and so on will be paying less. That's a lot of lost revenue for baseball. Revenue they will have no choice to make up for but to raise ticket prices. Once they do that, they are done.

Then, you have to look at companies that buy loges, PSL's, season tickets and so on, that just won't be willing or able to shell out the money. That revenue will need to be made up, so you raise prices more.

Pretty soon, those 25 dollar tix cost close to 100, the hot dogs, sodas and so on will cost more and the average family that may have been able to afford a couple games or a weekend series over the Summer can't afford it. The youth today aren't buying tix in droves or even as interested in the game as my generation was, so those kids won't miss it much.

Then there are fans like me, becoming more and more disenfranchised with the salaries, the total lack of respect shown the fans and just don't care anymore, don't really watch the games like I used to, don't listen to them on the radio, may follow the season online or in the papers but really, there's no fun there anymore. It's a business that has no respect or care for their fans so why should I care?

I'll go to minor league games, where for 30 bucks I can have great seats, eat some decent stadium food, be able to talk to some players before and after games and have a great time watching players trying to prove themselves and play hard.

But, MLB will eventually run them down by having to up those prices to help pay for the big league teams. Then, I'll just go watch little league and neighborhood softball leagues.

Point is, you can only disenfranchise and rob the fans so long before they leave.

And eventually when you have the same teams year after year after year in the playoffs while everyone else goes broke and they don't even have the money to sign the players they draft or put money into the minor leagues so that they may build a team..... your done.

LA, NY, Chicago and Boston will not be able to keep MLB alive.

In the end, it's all about fan respect.... and I have a feeling IF the few ultra rich teams go out and give extravagant contracts.... MLB is dead. The fans in the smaller market teams won't pay and corporate America is too poor to pay anymore.

It's just like everything else..... eventually this bubble will burst if you keep overinflating it, which you are doing. Eventually, even the richest of teams will go bust.

Nothing in that statement contradicts mine, despite much of it being accurate.

Sorry Pan, but I agree with djt. These ridiculous salaries are supported in the market, until they aren't. To date, they can get away with it. I liked what you wrote, and agree with almost all of it, but UNTIL the bottom drops out, they are merely getting all they can.
Just like I do from where I work, and I hope you do as well.
The '93 strike destroyed my Expos, but the players today are benefiting from it. Oh well.
Go Expos!! not anymore

But that's my point. Why continue disenfranchising fans, the very fans you are going to depend on to pay those salaries?

We see what unions and greed, management and greed have done to corporate America.... why would you want to do that to your sport?


No, I don't. I look at the company I work for as a team. As long as ownership doesn't exploit the worker and pay way below market and make golden parachutes for themselves, I'm ok with it. If Management does this, then I think there is a need for unions, government or an outside arbitrator to step in and correct the problem.

I feel the same whether I am a worker or when I owned a business..... Fair wages in all areas that allow growth and company stability in hard times. When times are good, pay can increase to share the good fortunes, when times are bad, you may have lower or no raises until business picks back up and the company is solid again.

If all businesses ran that way, if MLB ran that way, no one could complain and I don't think we'd have the economic turmoil we have now.

Management, workers and even customers ALL need to realize they need to work together. MLB seems to think each team, each subsidiary, needs to destroy the other financially. Then the players seem to think that they are owed far more than anyone else on the planet. Meanwhile, both sides fuck over the customer.

What happens to MLB when the broadcasters, corporate America and the fans stand up and say enough? And why continue too play Russian Roulette, knowing there will be a time when it happens.... but yet instead of trying to prevent it, MLB keeps pushing the envelope and I wonder if they actually want that time to come because you have owners who don't care about the whole.

Pan, these salaries are absurd, but you can argue that they have been absurd ever since the players had to hold a regular job in the offseason. They play a freakin game for christ sake! But really, somehow the market is more or less supporting the league, even given the exorbitant salaries. In other news the Boston Red Sox froze ticket prices for the first time in forever. So very minor kudos to them.

hmm.. I see what you are saying pan.. but once again, I'll just respectfully disagree to a point.


The auto industries don't need to be bailed out.. fuck em. I don't give a shit if they fail or not. they should file chapter 11 and restructure. bad management is bad management.

but anyway.. if the teams want to pay the price they can. it's up to the teams to control the markets not the fans.

Anyways, back to baseball talk...

The BBWA have done a great job so far with their awards. Although it was tough to see Lincecum beat Brandon Webb, he deserved it.

Pedroia is AL MVP.. WOOT!

and.. Pujols NL MVP?? that one I don't understand at all.

Pujols won because he had an amazing season when there was no true standout in any NL team. He had a 190 OPS+. Jones was the next closest with 174. From there it drops to the 150's.

Pujols was easily the best player in the NL, and there wasn't anyone on the playoff teams close enough to deserve to go ahead (no, not Ryan Howard, either).

I'd argue that the AL MVP was a more-even field of candidates without a dominant force this season, so I don't have too much of a problem with Dustin Jeter winning.

Pedroia winning is another W for the little guys. It's almost hard to imagine a better beginning to a career. ROY, MVP, GG, SS...he's going to need a bigger mantle before long. As much as I hate cockiness normally, I find his sort of endearing and charming. I guess after all of the slights and doubters he deserves some braggadocio. Good for him.

Dempster is staying with the cubs..


Looks like the Red Sox are dealing CoCo to the Royals for Ramon Ramirez. KC radio is saying it's already a deal while Boston won't comment on it. Ramirez isn't arbitration eligible and should give a good inning or two late in ballgames. Boston is supposedly also trying to buy A.J. Burnett.. and so are the yanks. Should be interesting.

Yanks are also after CC and Lowe. If they get CC, Lowe and Burnett, they could be a force to reason with again.. at least in the regular season ;)

So now, where does this leave Peavy?? Peavy probably won't have room in Chicago, and Boston probably won't make much of a play for him.. so I'm guessing the yanks will make an offer for him, but with the 140 mil they offered up to CC I don't know how much they are willing to offer Peavy.

Boston is in the mix for Tex as well. Although that causes some juggling with Youk and Lowell. Theo is pretty good at thinking outside of the box, so I'm sure some solution will come up if they can land Tex from LA.

And.. then there's Pedro. While he doesn't have what he used to have I'd like to see him go out on a good note. I think he deserves one more season.


Boston is also looking to trade Lugo.. Detroit is supposedly in the mix for him. Which give Jed Lowrie the spot with Alex Cora still the backup. There's some talk in Red Sox nation about the possibility of Lowe coming back to Boston. He likes pitching there.. but it's going to be a numbers game.. how much does he want and how much are the Red Sox really wanting to spend on him.

I think Pedro is good for one more year. When he came back from his hamstring injury, he didn't seem to have any lingering problems, and his stuff was still good. I think alot of his poor performance had to do with his ailing father and I don't think his head was really in the game after he died, despite his assertions otherwise. I think that now that he's had enough time to sufficiently mourn his passing, he'll be a bit closer to how he pitched his first year with the Mets.

ha nice.. I went the red sox route and somehow it ended with mark cuban buying the cubs after holding manny hostage and then signing manny to six at 180 mil. and still no WS championship.

Tazawa headed to Boston. Interested in seeing how this kid can perform in the majors. He's got a decent fastball, a forkball and a slider. He'll be stuck in the minors for a year probably. Only cost them 3 million though..so not a big deal if he doesn't work out.

Pedroia signs a 6 year $40 million dollar contract. Kudos. Glad to see he's staying a while.

Looks like Renteria is going to San Fran and Vasquez to Atlanta. Not that notable in my book..

Now if Boston can sign Texiera things will be wonderful.

Boston is brilliant for getting Pedroia signed to that deal. All arbitration years AND two free-agent years for $6.667 million a year for a guy who is already a rookie of the year, MVP and possibly the best all-around second baseman in the American League (and I'm a Brian Roberts guy).

If they can get a couple other guys signed like this, like Youkilis and Lester, they will be set for a long, long time.

Ain't gettin' Tex, though :lol:

yes the Pedroia deal is brilliant. That's what happens when Theo is in charge.

I think they are waiting on signing Youk to something similar until after they see what they need to do with Tek and Tex. If they sign Tex, then they'll ship Lowell off and sign Youk to a 5 or 6 year contract and keep him at third base and keep Tex at first.

I almost fainted when you said that Pedroia was the best second baseman in the AL

I don't see what he Youkilis has to do with the others, though. Either way he's going to be there, at first or third.

Varitek will be very interesting. He'll be 37 a week into next season, his numbers fell off a cliff last year, and when old catchers are done there is very little chance for a revival to their career.

Boras' demand for a Posada-like deal (which was moronic on a level that even a Steinbrenner should be above) is probably the most-ridiculous thing he has ever suggested. I don't care how good he is in the clubhouse (most of which is hot air anyway, in my mind; in general, not specifically in his case).

As for Roberts, he's fantastic. But it took him four years to get established (though to be fair he did have Jerry Hairston fighting with him for his first couple seasons in the majors) and he is in his prime now. Pedroia is where he is...and is going to get BETTER.

He comes off as a little too cocky, and I think he's getting a little TOO much attention for his MVP (in a year where there wasn't a real good candidate), but I can't deny that he's good.

The Pedroia signing was brilliant. He is such a spark plug for the team, and his numbers on both sides of the ball are fantastic. The Tex signing will be a tough one any way you look at it. I have yet to hear anything negative about the guy ever (well except for his choice of agent) but you can't really trade Lowell right now, as he has to prove he can come back from the hip injury, and it also sets kind of a bad precedent, as far as not respecting the veteran players.

Tek's numbers did fall off a cliff, however, he makes up for it behind the plate. He can manage a game like no other catcher. His ability to get the veterans on track and the kids calmed down is amazing. I don't know who or how Boston could replace that right now. I would imagine they would have to keep Tek for a couple of years and make sure that his replacement is already in the clubhouse and ready to go when he walks.

I know it's bad to see Lowell go in a sense.. but Theo is always about making the team better. When you have a guy like Youk who can play third just as well as Lowell, and the chance to get a guy like Tex, you simply have to do what you have to do. Sure they could keep Lowell around next year for sentimental reasons and the ability to switch players when needed..but I don't see it happening.

Tek is undoubtedly a superior game caller, but you can't even call him a good defensive catcher. Kevin Cash actually had a better caught stealing% catching Tim freakin Wakefield. I would like to see them continue to keep him, while they find a suitable replacement. As long as it isn't on a 3 year contract.
The Lowell thing is a little more complicated. As much as I love the dude, I recognize you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, or however that saying goes. Problem is, his salary is kind of steep for some teams, and wouldn't be a big deal if he was healthy, but no one will give you shit for a big contract and the thought of Bo Jackson's hip. I just don't see them being able to prove that he's healthy enough to move before they need to move on the Tex deal.

Looks like K-rod will be in a Met's uni for 2009.

I didn't expect that, but it's a natural fit for the Mets.

CC is playing ball with the yanks and dodgers and possibly SF. Eh whatever. I'm more interested in where Peavy goes. Cubs are trying to get a third team in the discussion.

Now that the Mets have K-Rod signed, they can focus on getting the rest of their bullpen in order. They still need another setup guy or two to work the late innings. It'd be nice if they manage to sign somebody like Trevor Hoffman.

Heard on the wire that Boston is now heavy in the mix for Burnett. I wonder if Theo is just trying to make the yankees trigger happy?

The yanks sign burnett and maybe CC and that leaves less money for them to sign Texiera.

Of course if Boston could sign Burnett and Tex .. I doubt we'd see Tampa Bay winning the division again ;)

Baltimore trades catcher Ramon Hernandez and cash to Cincinnati for Ryan Freel and two prospects.

Not a huge deal nationally, but there's a lot of psyched Orioles fans out there right now. Hernandez isn't the most popular guy, and Matt Wieters will be the Rookie of the Year anyway.

Now...just need to get Teixeira signed. And rumors are that Burnett wants, and his wife is trying to influence him, to pitch as close to his off-season home as possible (that would be just north of...you guessed it :lol:)

Man, I have no idea why I get so damn optimistic this time of year :D

:lol:

You just sent all the cash you had to Cinci

If baltimore signs either Burnett or Teixeira, I'll wear a yankees cap for a day.

Burnett says his most important thing in making a decision is a chance to win. He wants to go where he can win.. that means Boston baby ;)

Tex well.. he wants to be on a good club, but I have a feeling he's more about money, but with Boston's good relationship with Bora's, Boston is a front runner in his future.

Dodgers sign Casey Blake to 3 year deal. Its good and all, but we lost half our pitching staff and MANNY. I want to see some big names. I want the owners to stop worrying about money. WIN and they'll make a profit, no matter how much they spend on players.

I think the Dodgers will crack and resign Manny when the meetings are over. They probably just want to see what they will have to shell out for CC first.

edit: nvm, looks like C.C. is going to be wearing pinstripes

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...2008&fext=.jsp


whole lot of cash for a playoff bum. oh wait.. that's what the skanks are good at.

Yeah, it shouldn't surprise you that the Yanks shelled out big dough for a flash in the pan.

Well the yanks are hot on Lowe also.. so if the dodgers are going to make a move they better be prepared to offer years..

Boston is a heavy hitter for Burnett .. don't think the dodgers are even looking at him but you never know what's going on in these meetings.

I don't know who's all in the mix for Manny, I know the Yanks have looked at him and he is a beast at yankee stadium, but all of that doesn't matter since they are in a new building. I really wouldn't be surprised to see Manny back in LA. He's comfortable there and can do what he wants without so much media attention.. LA just has to relax the hair rule :lol: