Vincentt

First for the sake of this story I’ll refer to the other Exchange student as Mark.

So Mark and I were walking in Shinjuku looking for a book store. On 5 separate occasions someone would walk up to Mark and invite him to their ‘topless club’ or in some cases “5000yen for 30min.”

I found it very funny that no one came to me, but they always went to Mark. Mark is a devout Christian who seems offended by porn, let alone prostitution. I still joke with him about how ‘shady’ he must look.

Anyway, coming from America I really am not used to seeing this kind of stuff everywhere. There are lots of places to go for sex. Although prostitution is illegal here people still do it. There are shops that are famous for it like ‘Soap land.’ I asked a few Japanese guys about it. Many said they have gone to those types of places before, and talked open about it. I was told most places are not “NK” that is “iN oKay” so at most of the places no real sex happens. But there were also NK places.

Seems many places you go, and the women basically give you a bath with a happy ending.

For me, I get a strong since of “wrong” coming from these places. Now that I am out of my country I sometimes feel that what I do morally doesn’t count.

I have been wondering if I could go to one of these places, I am very curious but also feel it would be very ‘dirty’ to go. A Japanese friend I have here wants to take me to one of these places, but I told him “no thanks”.

Anyway, what do you think? Is the entire country of Japan wrong for having these services?
Would you go?
What do you think about the people that do?
Any other thoughts?

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tecoyah

Personally...I would likely pass on the Adventure....but not for the reasons you bring up.
Keep in mind that here in America, Sex is poisoned by a society based on Dogma, and is severly stiffled. Much of the world is more open to the possibilities sexuality carries with it. To label diffences in culture as "Wrong", seems to me relatively close minded and short sighted. That said....each person has an understanding of the Joys of sex and needs to follow this understanding and go where they will with it. The only real issue is when others try to decide what direction this is....For You.

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Amano

Well I think what you experienced is a combination of two characteristics of Japanese culture and society:

First is the prevalence of person to person advertising (which is by no means a technical term, just something I made up). How many times do you get greeted by workers to check out a store that sells "normal things" like clothes, food, books, etc. It's just something that I think is very widely used in Japanese stores.

Second is the lack of zoning. I don't know much about Tokyo, but in Kyoto, there were a bunch of shady looking love hotels next to the center I studied at (by no means a large school, less than 50 people there, so don't tell me it's catering to all the hormone-filled college students). These love hotels were also in a really nice residental neighborhood. Also, in the more downtown area, there were car dealerships, bookstores, family restaurants, specialty stores, love hotels, strip clubs, tourist shops, buddhist temples, people's houses all mixed in. No such thing as an auto-row, a China town, anything like that

Strip clubs are all over the place in American cities, but they're usually concentrated in an area, so unless you go there looking for strip clubs, you won't come across it while looking for a bookstore like you did in Japan. Couple that with the active advertising, and you become much more aware of a strip-club/prostitution "culture" that is probably pretty active in most American cities

Vincentt

For me I feel the whole thing is a bit dirty, or sleezy.
I also worry about how safe this stuff is.
I just feel it is something I wouldn't want people to know I did.
If I am going to feel ashamed, then I would rather not do it.

I don't think it is wrong though, victomless, and good business.

So I guess I'm struggling with instilled morals.

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boredom

I view it as making a living. I mean id rather prostitute my self then work at Fast Food(really i would, id make more too)

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Everytime

I just can't help but think of STD's and the like...

Vincentt

For me, the first thing I think is "but it is wrong / illegal."
After I think past that I worry about the STDs.

I wouldn't do it just for the sex, I can get that free.
It would be the "kinkyness" of it being paid for sex.
I think that is a reason people go.

Like I said, I am just curious, thought I would see what other people thought.

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RCR

I encountered it in Malaysia, but it was more the taxi drivers asking if you wanted to have a go, they would be working for pimps.

I never did it because of the likely hood of it actually being dangerous. The thought of going to some seedy part of town, i had never been to or seen...too inherently dangerous imho.

I dont know if this would be the case in Japan though.

At the end of the day it is up to you. But i think sex is better when it isnt paid for

Vincentt

Well most of the places here aren't for sex but for other stuff.
Most of the Japanese guys that were telling me about these places haven't been to a sex place.
Like soapy hand jobs, girls using bodys as towels, blowjobs, etc.

Also, lots of times all the guys are in the same room, like in view of each other. Or maybe you have a small curtian, but the sounds are still around.

It all sounds a bit too strange to me, many places don't let white guys in anyway. :P

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Martian

I have too much pride to pay for sex, but I guess to each his own. Bottom line is, if you're not comfortable with it, don't do it.It's one of those things that everyone has to decide for thmselves, I think.

kutulu

There are lots of places in the US that you can go in for a handjob. All of those 'massage' parlors offer those services. At a lot of them will give you BJs or fuck you too. That shit even goes on in strip clubs with the right girl and the right price. There IS sex in the champagne room and at the least it's not uncommon for strippers to tolerate/allow or even engourage a customer to cum in their pants during lap dances. Counting all the escort agencies, the US and it's pay for sex culture isn't as pure as people would like you to think it is.

Although I never have, I could go for a hand job from some hot girl.

rainheart

I think this little tidbit right here, although only part of the reason why you aren't completely open to the idea, is something to really think about.

So for a moment let's pretend other things weren't really factors for you- you couldn't contract STDs, and the places were clean as a whistle.

I mean you say that "I wouldn't want people to know I did it", so it seems like at the back of your mind, although you might not think of it that way, you could be saying: "If there was no way other people found out about this, and I didn't have to bear that sort of shame and guilt, I wouldn't really have a problem with this."

So then the question is... is it worth being looked down on by other people for doing something that you otherwise wouldn't have a big problem with (just a reminder once more that we aren't taking into consideration the other reasons which make you unsure about this).

And the answer for a lot of people might be "oh, I make my own decisions and don't care about the people who look down on me for doing something that I think is okay", but I guess what I really want to point out is that in reality it won't always be carried out that way.
This is me going on the assumption that you believe that you don't care how other people will judge you based on your actions.

So, I don't know, I think those two lines of what you wrote deserved some introspection.

chickentribs

Let me say this - if you don't try it out you will spend the rest of your life wondering about it and why you made it such a big deal in your head. We tend to regret the things that we didn't do as opposed to the things we did do - especially when we avoided it out of some misplaced sense of fear.

I will assume that you are still youngish (in school) and not married or committed to a relationship where chastity has been promised (living overseas for school).

Don't let "Mark" fool you - these people are professionals and could spot a "john" a mile away - before you or I ever saw it coming. Devotion to christianity (or any other religion) has not proven such a solid test when it comes to temptation. "Me thinks the lady doth protest too loudly" as Will Shakespeare said.

The whole STD scare reminds me of something out of a grainy 1950's health film. Protect yourself and use common sense and it is a non-issue. What the hell are you going to catch from a handjob anyway? Disease is the black cloud the church uses to maintain a moral upperhand. Again, the "massage therapists" know what they are doing and you would be more likely to catch something from a college girl back in at school in the U.S.

I say go into one of these places with just the backrub as your plan. Find a clean place with people who are friendly and worse case scenario you have a pretty girl rub your back and you will know what it is all about. Then you have made your decision based on what you know vs. fear and that's always a good thing. If you happen to fall prey to the dark side, we won't tell anyone if you don't.

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streak_56

Theres a reason why it would be the oldest profession in the world. Its a personal choice, you do not want to go. I know I wouldn't go, but its up to other people, its like strip clubs. If someone is willing to pay for it well then why not?

Vincentt

Rainheart that is interesting.
To say I don't care about how other people see me is a lie, and would be coming from anyones mouth.
But no one would find out unless I told them (I am on the other side of the world) I'm not worried about STDs unless sex is involved. I am mostly worried about the morals I guess.

It comes down to, hookers = bad trouble danger in my mind.

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Hardknock

I'd go with tecoyah's response

Sweetpea

If you don't feel comfortable, then don't do it. Listen to your Instincts.

You might always regret that you did it and feel wierd about it.

And if you can get sex for free . . . enjoy the good times that way

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Vincentt

This isn't a big "what should I do" thing for me.

It really was something I made in passing after this happened.
Other then calling Mark "shady" every now and then I haven't thought much about it

I was interested about how other people thought of these kinda places, not what I should do, I already declined going.

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chickentribs

The fact you are studying abroad is really impressive to me, Vicentt. It must have taken a real leap of courage to committ to a year out of your life in a culture so different than what you were comfortable with.

Honestly, the handjob and the ladies who work at "Soap Land" are entertaining, but not the point. You are in a different culture that has different ideas about things, and it's created enough conflict that you're curious as to what the hell is going on with that aspect of their culture. If you went with your friend who offered for safety's sake to only see for yourself why he goes and is ok with it, what's the harm? Maybe the women are rude, crude, and hate Americans - or maybe they are there because a domineering patriarchal society left them uneducated and poor.

I don't know what the answer is - but it would be cool to hear your opinion since you are living there for a while. Hookers = bad trouble danger is certainly true in a lot of cases, that is for sure.

Oh - and money exchanges hands for sex at many levels between all of us. A young lady who grew up in rural Japan and probably supports parents and siblings on the $400/month she takes in shouldn't suffer our wagging fingers. Our version of morals is a pretty expensive luxury to a lot of the world.

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Lead543

Hehe, someone's looking for brownie points. I DON'T CARE IF OTHER PEOPLE PAY YOU STILL CAN'T LOOK AT THEM!


Anyways, this is just a different form of prostitution. Instead of standing on a street corner, the "sevicers" are performing in a bath house. It's different and probably sparks a lot of curiosity. Different culture, different methods, etc. Your morals and opinions on these are yours, not something you leave at customs.

Sweetpea

Well for conversation's sake, let's reverse the situation and make it a male escort we're talking about for a woman:

I don't see how i could get excited paying some guy to fuck me(well, or a woman either for that matter).
Having sex is about feeling each other and it being a mutual thing for me, that's part of the excitment, not because some guy did XYZ to get me off, that feels somehow clinical and makes the experience seems cold.
I wouldn't enjoy it. Just the fact that i was paying some guy to do it, not because he wanted to, in fact, he might detest giving oral sex, but i wouldn't know that because i was paying him to do it and he would put on a happy front, the lack of connection during something so intimate would leave me feeling cold and i would feel like i was using him.

Sweet Pea

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chickentribs

That is a good point, sweetpea and I am sure most if not all the women I know would agree 100%... It's probably a big part of the reason male escorts haven't had the luck in growing their industry like the ladies!

If, however, you had a friend who came to you and said that she had gone to italy for the week and on the last night met a handsome young man who was cheezy but romantic and she got swept up in the moment and made love in the back of gondola and knew it was wrong but... etc.

Would you approve? Disapprove? Laugh with her and not say anything?

Would the fact that she was in Italy abroad change your mind as opposed to down the street from her house at the local bar? Would the this gentleman's romantic efforts make it more respectable than a massage parlor in Tokyo?

That one night stand, or any sex without love for that matter, should be as morally reprehensible as sex with the massage attendant in Japan with or without religious belief. I'm not sure where a handjob would fall - seems like gray area to me, but let's treat it all the same. I know that the exchange of money gets to people and they would rather she not work and then God knows what happens to her. It just doesn't hold water that her taking money should be the single influencing factor as good or bad. If he met her and wanted to give her money instead of her asking for it, would that be better?

Our government treats sex like a disease to be rooted out from the bedrooms of deviants and criminals and goes a long way towards inhibiting people from being able to have sexual relations with people that they do love in a comfortable and responsible way. Shame is the most worthless of all emotions.


Vincentt, if you get the opportunity to check it out I hope you do. Morals or values that you can discard on an airplane will never have much value to you. Good luck and enjoy your experience!

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Sweetpea

No, i wouldn't disapprove, that would be her perogative, and if both parties were willing and practiced safe sex, then all the more power to her.

And would she be paying him to be romantic? You took money out of the scenerio.

I don't see any problem with getting a 'special' massage at a parlor in Tokyo, if the women are there of Free Will and enjoy their line of work, then i think it's fine.
But what if the Woman DOESN'T enjoy doing it?? Wouldn't the man feel guilty paying a woman to do something she might detest? Doesn't that matter to men how the person performing the sex act feels??

I guess that is what it comes down to for me. Let's say i paid someone to get me off . . . man or woman, doesn't matter . . . but would they enjoy it? Do they enjoy their work? What circumstances lead them into the sex trade? Would they want to get me off in real life, without money involved. If all the answers were honestly positive to those questions i would feel different.

I guess, bottom line:
I care about how the other person feels and who they are, i care if they are enjoying themselves or not, even though i would be paying them for a service, i cannot just disconnect from this other human being who's being intimate with me.

I don't know how some men (and i guess some women who pay for services) can do that, just disconnect.

Let's take hookers or 'sex trade workers'
Bottom line: No woman WANTS to be a hooker, maybe a few do, but most don't really choose the lifestyle, they fall into it.

Let's use some extreme, but ACTUAL circumstances. I KNOW a woman who was a hooker and it was some of the saddest days of her life . . . And i wish that someone had shaken her straight and told her she didn't have to do it anymore.

In America at least:
Some of these women in the sex trade are being abused and their boyfriends force them to sell their bodies.
A good percentage, especially the young run aways are homeless and need the money from selling their bodies for food, to survive.


HOW can a man look away from the misery of this person who is pleasuring him?
How can he disconnect from the unhappiness of the person and just pay for his pleasure and leave without a second thought?

I couldn't do that.

Maybe because i Know someone who used to be a hooker, i have a more realistic perspective.


People can do what they want and i approve. But only if both parties are consenting and truly willing to be there, whether or not money is involved, i don't care about the money, what i care about is if the person being paid is happy to be there or not.



Good questions!

Sweet Pea

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Vincentt

Now there is a question.

Of course no one is putting a gun to these girls heads and making them sell their bodys.

But, what does bring these girls to these places?

It's Money.

So you could say the money is too good and that forces them to work there, but then wouldn't every girl have been 'forced' to work there.

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amge

This is why you see japanese high school girls carrying Real Louis Vuitton hand bags, D&G sunglasses, and Chanel clothing.

Vincentt

Haha, I was going to say something about those high school girls but removed it from my post.

Lots of Japanese high school girls go to work at these places to buy all the expensive goodies they want. Even though they come from perfectly fine homes... oh the poor girls being forced to sell their bodys for... cellphones...?

The victom whore isn't going to work for the gals in Japan, now other parts of asia.... well I hear some bad stuff happens

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Sweetpea

Okay, perhaps a TINY percentage of young women are as you described above, but i think that is just easier for you to believe, would you like some FACTS??

Ammnesty international made the trafficing of Asian women into Japaese Massage parlors an issue as well for them to address.

Here is an article i found that might shed some light for you.

http://www.soshawaii.org/eastwestjournal.html


"Majority women who are engaged with sex industry are under control of pimps. Pimp refers to a man who makes money by controlling women and forces them to engage with sex industry. Pimps are not necessarily a man. For example, women who manage massage parlors or hostess bars, (they are usually called “Mama-san” or “Mama”) also take the role of a pimp. Mama-san offers sexual services to their clients and assigns her employees to provide the services. She takes the margin from the service fee. Moreover, there are female pimps other than “Mama-san” on the street of Waikiki who manage many street workers.

Mama-san could get arrested sometimes, however pimps who are managing street-workers are rarely get arrested, since they are not directly engaged with the sexual services. To make the matter worse, those street workers refuse to tell police about their pimps even when they get arrested. Those women are constantly abused and threatened by pimps, they are too afraid to talk about them. Those women know the consequences after disclosing information about them. The fear of retaliation makes the women silent.

Tour operators are trying to warn Japanese tourists constantly not to get involved with their business. Not only Japanese tourists but also all the tourists include Europeans and tourists from mainland are the prime targets of their business. Street workers in Waikiki often approach tourists and offer sex, and then they steal the clients’ belongings while they are expecting to have sex with them. The victims rarely report the police, since they are only staying in Hawaii for a short period of time.

The reason why they are seeking Japanese women is to get more Japanese customers. Those Japanese girls are emotionally insecure since they are far away from home, only know few people and it is very difficult for them to communicate in English. Pimps take advantage of their vulnerability, treat them nicely in the beginning of their relationships, and then confiscate their passport. Knowing the consequences of the pimps’ affair, most of the women become afraid to take any action. HPD urges the victims to have courage to report Police; otherwise the number will grow endlessly.

SOS Victims Support

Sisters Offering Support (SOS) is a Not-for –Profit organization that helps support women who wish to escape from CSE. According to SOS executive Director Lorraine Faithful, their location is not out in public so that the victims can safely escape from pimps. There is no place like this in the US. She has helped many women and knows the terror of the pimps. Majority of the victims who seek help at SOS are the ones who were taken in by pimps when they were young and suffered for a long time. It is easy for pimps to brainwash young girls to make them believe that girls cannot survive without them."


Thank you,

Sweet Pea

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Vincentt

uh, okay thank you for talking about Hawaii?

Once again I am in Japan.

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Vincentt

First google responded with these
http://www.dazereader.com/schoolgirlprostitutes.htm

"Wai Wai runs another article about Japanese schoolgirl prostitutes, who hook up with clients through online personals sites. "About the only way for a junior high schoolgirl to make money is to sell sex. Our school doesn't let us have part-time jobs, so we do this (sell sex) once a week or so and that makes us enough dough. If you're a junior high schoolgirl, you can say you're a virgin and sell your virginity for a high price. I got 350,000 yen [approximately US$3000] for my virginity once. The guy was some sicko of about 40 who said he ran his own company. I've sold my virginity three times so far." (Jun 2002)"


After some digging for the bad stuff I did find this

http://www.thaipro.com/news_00/146_t...utes_japan.htm

More than 30,000 Thai women have been tricked by the Japanese Yakuza maffia to work as prostitutes in Japan, a senior official of Thailand's Ministry of Social Development and Human Security has revealed


So there is some bad shit in Japan, I am not going to say all the girls are greedy high schoolers, or girls pretending to be such. But I am saying that many of these girls are just normal people with a strange little part time job.

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Sweetpea

heh my bad.


Sweetpea

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Sweetpea

Thank you for posting this.

And yes, i didn't disagree with you that some at least, do it of free will. But evidence shows that is not the case for many.

And if one cannot know for sure . . . then it's a question of wether or not to patronize such places and be part of the cycle. If someone knowingly wishes to support that, then that is their perogative, as long as they have the facts with which to make their choices.

Vincentt, this has been a good discussion, thank you for joining me in it and bringing it up.



Sweetpea

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Vincentt

It is something I find interesting as it doesn't exist in america, at least not in such a legal and accepted way.

It was a good discussion, you have brought a few things I didn't think of. I would not have known about the 30,000 Thai women, had I not looked for 'forced' prostitutes.

I asked some friends about these (not sure what they are thinking of me for asking :P) Thai girls. From what I gather, some japanese guys like Thai girls, but they are a bit more shady then your normal places. Also, I think you 'get' more from Thai girls.

I think it is safe to say being a abroad prostitute is a bad idea.

Anyway, for me going for sex is out of the question.

I am also a little worried about what 'job's some of the girls I meet here had/have.

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cellophanedeity

The other day I turned on the television and there was an interview with a sex worker. She, and many of her fellow sex workers are petitioning to legalize prostitution in Canada. She suggested that greater regulation and public knowledge would help reduce the number of women who get sucked into prostitiution by pimps, and would give willing women a safer way to sell sex. On top of this, she said that she and the other women involved in the campaign would quite willingly accept the income tax that goes along with any regular job, so the government could benefit from their services too.