The effects of Porn on young men and women - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

MrFriendly · 05-03-2010, 12:18 AM

So I read a rather interesting article in my local rag where feminist Naomi Wolf talks about the effects of porn on teens and young adults. The whole article is quite long, so I'm just going to quote the relevant bit.

Quote:

So when Wolf wrote an essay in New York magazine in 2003, centred on the effect of porn on young men's sex drives, there was quite a stir. "The onslaught of porn," she wrote, "is responsible for deadening male libido in relation to real women ... Far from having to fend off porn-crazed young men, young women are worrying that as mere flesh and blood, they can scarcely get, let alone hold, their attention."

Critics ridiculed the idea that young men were turning down sex with willing, flesh-and-blood women, and although I believe Wolf when she tells me that "many, many men" have written to her since saying, "Yes, it's true", I remain unconvinced that this is a generation-wide phenomenon. Nevertheless, returning to the article seven years later, I'm forced to admit that when it comes to the effect of ubiquitous pornography on the sexual self-confidence of young women, she has a point. When I first read Wolf's claim that hers was "the last female generation to experience that sense of sexual confidence and security in what we had to offer", I scoffed. Now, I tell her I hope she's wrong, but am increasingly worried that she's not.

In the past few years I've spent a lot of time talking to women in their teens and early 20s about porn, sex and body image. There is a profound difference in the context in which these women have come of sexual age compared to that of my adolescence only a decade earlier. The difference is that most young people now have witnessed countless sex acts long before they even get naked with another human being.

It could be argued that such exposure is educational, but only if you've never seen any mainstream porn, which is, most industry insiders and observers agree, getting more and more extreme. This may be, at least in part, a reaction to the adoption of soft-porn aesthetics by mainstream popular culture. Porn needs to be nastier and more hard-core to differentiate itself from beer ads and music videos.

Anal sex, for example, is now a standard part of heterosexual porn, and although this is not necessarily a brutal act, the way it's performed in these films usually is. A bit of spit on the woman's orifice is all the preparation and care the men take. On visits to college campuses, Wolf learnt from health educators and counsellors that women are coming in with anal fissures caused by sex. "I'm not making a [moral] judgement about it," Wolf says.

"But it's an intense act and on a first date, or on a hook-up on a Saturday night with someone they don't know, girls feel like they have to provide anal sex. This doesn't seem like the kind of thing they'd be doing if they felt, 'I'm 100 per cent fabulous, I'm setting the pace, taking my time.' It seems like the kind of thing girls do when they're trying to live up to one ideal or another."

The other big trend in mainstream porn is to end a scene with a man ejaculating on a woman's face. Again, there's nothing wrong with the act in itself, but there's something disturbing about the way it has become the norm within what has become a widely watched and imitated form of media. This is especially worrying when you realise that the context in which it's presented is often one of deliberate humiliation. The idea seems to be that no matter how hot and confident the woman is at the outset, by the end she'll be a sticky mess, with smudged make-up, watery eyes and no hope of getting satisfaction herself now that her partner has finished with her.

Sexually experienced adults may understand that what they're watching is a fantasy, carefully choreographed, performed by professionals and shot for maximum visual impact rather than physical pleasure. But many teenagers don't know this; hence the horror stories of first-time sex that begins with rough, sudden penetration and finishes with semen in the eye.

To be clear, the concerns Wolf is raising are not about the morality or otherwise of watching porn or having sex of whatever kind; they're about the effect that early, repeated exposure to pornography is having on young people's sexuality. "Young women do compare themselves to pornography and they do have porn running in their heads when they're in sexual situations. I'm not a prude, but I don't think that's good for their sexual confidence or confidence in their bodies."

Indeed, young women I speak to often express anxiety about the appearance of their genitals, which seem to them so much "messier" than those they see in high-definition close-up on the screen. Although no statistics are collected in Australia, surgeons specialising in labiaplasty (basically a nip and tuck of the labia) claim it's a growing field. One Australian surgeon recently told a cosmetic surgery conference that he used to see only "the professionals - the pole dancers, the strippers" but now he was seeing a lot of "young girls who are concerned that their partners in sex may in fact be put off by the appearance of their vulvas".

Contributing to the problem is the fact that it's illegal in Australia to publish images of vulvas that show anything more than "a single crease". This means that even women's magazines aren't allowed to show real, un-pornified, un-photoshopped female genitals for educational purposes. I'm reminded of something Wolf wrote in The Beauty Myth: "We are asked to believe our culture promotes the display of female sexuality. It actually shows almost none. It censors representations of women's bodies, so that only the official versions are visible."

This in turn brings to mind the argument that certain kinds of pornography are liberating because they do show human bodies and sexualities in their uncensored, infinitely variable glory. What of the young gay, lesbian and transgender people who say pornography is empowering to them because it celebrates their sexualities when other forms of media shun or ignore them?

What of the young women who say that non-mainstream pornography helps them to accept their bodies and become more confident in their sexuality? Can pornography be a positive force?

"Oh, you're wading into a thicket," Wolf says. "You're right to, but ... it's so complicated. I know that seeing a sexuality that's been kept hidden or criminalised can be liberating for gay and lesbian people, certainly. I'm also really interested in sex; it fascinates me and I'm not going to say there aren't erotic images or works of art or works of theatre or paintings or photographs that don't appeal to me." She pauses. "I guess I go back to that's why I don't think feminism will ever triumph if it's saying, 'Okay, this kind of erotic image is legitimate because the people look like Smith [a private liberal arts college] graduates or are overweight and this is not okay because it's made by a big studio.' That's hair-splitting and I think we need [to resist the] reflex to label something good or bad. Thinking for yourself is a lot more liberating. I'm always going to return to asking a person how does it make them feel. What's the lasting effect on their love life, their sex life? Research shows that pornography desensitises; if you consume it a lot, you need more or more extreme or more and more intense images in order to get the same sensations over time ... If you care about your sexual response - you want to protect it, keep it fresh - you might want to not look at pornography for that reason.

Ok, I know that's a lot to get through, and I appreciate it if you've made it this far.

I think this article raises some very interesting points and concerns about what effects porn is having on young men and women.

I'm really keen to hear what people of both sexes here think. Porn has never been easier to get a hold of, and by that same extension, more extreme porn such as rape fantasy.

I think that porn causes just as much anxiety in young males just as much as females due to both parties having a misguided ideas about what each party expects of eachother. As pointed out, women can develop a misguided idea about what vaginas should look like, just as young man can develop a misguided idea about penis size.

But as I thought about it a bit more, when didn't we have strange ideas of sex growing up? Who here hasn't had some incredibly sexual awkward moment as they were maturing and figuring this stuff out on our own?

I think what our youngsters need to be taught, especially young women, is that they should never feel like they have to do something they're simply not comfortable with and to understand porn in a better context.

Your thoughts?

Plan9 · 05-03-2010, 03:40 AM

Hey, Mr. Friendly is back. What's up, stranger? How about you post more than once a year, bro?

...

The thread:

Porn is fantasy. It is the way it is today because people have a short attention span and just wanna get off.

I'd clocked about ten lightyears on my palm before I'd had real sex and I assure you porn didn't turn me into a monster.

But yeah, one person, say, the guy that likes to __extreme porn act__ on the first date, always ruins it for the rest of us.

"No, Johnny... ejaculating on her face isn't a good way to say goodnight." Hmm, maybe that's just a product of bad parenting?

...

Let's not discount the fact that people can be aware of the difference between reality and fantasy.

Otherwise... our highways would look like a cross between a NASCAR track and Die Hard 3.

...

The type of sexual activities your first (few) partners are into has just as much impact as whatever porn you watch.

I know that I base my preferences on positive reinforcements from my first girlfriend during our "WTF is sex?" phase.

...

And, yeah, porn isn't killing my sex life. I did it three times yesterday afternoon. I prefer The Real Thing (TM).

MrFriendly · 05-03-2010, 04:18 AM

Hey hey man!

You should see me around a little more, I'm unemployed at the moment and have little else to do........ except look for new work I guess, haha.

As for porn..... You know I sometimes wonder if I had no access to porn what so ever, I might just be more motivated to go out and have sex with women, or at least try. But that just might possibly have more to do with the fact I'm just not very sexually driven.

ARTelevision · 05-03-2010, 05:45 AM

I'm taking the opportunity to say this here. It relates to this topic and other topics discussed in this forum.

In my years as a human being, it has become quite clear to me that people can not tell the difference between reality and fantasy.

Plan9 · 05-03-2010, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

I'm taking the opportunity to say this here. It relates to this topic and other topics discussed in this forum.

In my years as a human being, it has become quite clear to me that people can not tell the difference between reality and fantasy.

Well, I don't see life through the eyes of an impeccably well-groomed character in Bret Easton Ellis novel, so I disagree with your perspective, ART.

Lifestyle and socioeconomic status aside, I think people have a pretty firm grasp of reality vs. fantasy. It's why escapist activities such as marijuana use, TeeVee cop shows, chick flicks, and hardcore porn are so popular. We use... consume... these things because they decidedly not our reality.

Those that have problems between fantasy and reality... the John Mohammads, the Charles Mansons... and let's not forget Nick Nolte.

...

Yes... yes, all good things in moderation. If you're spending more time downloading porn than screwing your wife... you may have a problem. And, as with this thread, if you're feeling inadequate because a 12" cock is ramming some plasti-perfect bimbo... snap out of it. That's not real-real.

Redlemon · 05-03-2010, 07:47 AM

I'm too far removed from my young adult years to discuss with any knowledge basis. I just wanted to mention the website Make Love Not Porn :: Porn World vs. Real World , which comes from a similar angle. There was a related TED talk as well.

Plan9 · 05-03-2010, 08:19 AM

I could swear this thread and the related links were posted here like 3 months ago.

Cimarron29414 · 05-03-2010, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

Yes... yes, all good things in moderation. If you're spending more time downloading porn than screwing your wife... you may have a problem. And, as with this thread, if you're feeling inadequate because a 12" cock is ramming some plasti-perfect bimbo... snap out of it. That's not real-real.

I agree with what you are saying, but I think the trouble is that there isn't enough "normal" sex being filmed and consumed to show the true disparity between porn and typical sex. For someone with zero experience to go on the Intarweb and find what's there, they have nothing to compare it to and might believe that is typical. I believe that is what the article is saying.

MrFriendly · 05-03-2010, 03:47 PM

There was an interesting trend down here in Aus where more people were consuming amateur porn instead of produced stuff.

Question is, are people turning to that because it actually is more real, or because we're inherently voyeuristic?

Charlatan · 05-03-2010, 04:22 PM

I would say that while people are generally able to differentiate between reality and fantasy, their is often a lot of smudging around the edges. I'd suggest it's because people don't want reality or it's that fantasy is a powerful thing that can influence on levels that we not always conscious about.

I think there is something to be said for some of what was posited in the article. Just as trends, needs and wants can be manufactured on Madison Avenue so too, it is possible to extrapolate, can sexual trends, needs and wants be manufactured in the San Fernando Valley.

As the article points out, it was not all that long ago that anal sex and facials were exceedingly rare in everyday sex. Now they are as mainstream as missionary. It wasn't long ago that a hairy pussy was the norm. Today, if a woman doesn't shave it bare, or at least keep it very trimmed, she is deemed to be a hairy monster. I didn't see this trend start to happen until I started seeing it in porn.

I am not making a judgment on this. I like all of these things. I am simply pointing out the correlation between porn and the mainstreaming of certain sexual acts and trends.

I would suggest that just as body image is mass marketed by Madison Avenue, so too has our sexual image been shaped and marketed by the San Fernando Valley.

Plan9 · 05-03-2010, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFriendly

amateur porn

This. Real people doing real things is a more satisfying pr0n product. I see this trend increasing. Reddit's "Gone Wild," for example.

Digital cameras / camcorders are cheap and people are tired of gaping-orifice'd Barbie Dolls getting reamed by baguette-sized wangs.

Shadowex3 · 05-03-2010, 04:44 PM

I've probably "consumed" more porn in an average year than many ordinary people will in 2, and about the only effect it's had on my life is occasional chafing, one very awkwardly ended interparental fight, and an outlet for dealing with what I feel is an unecessary stress caused by a purely physical hunger.

Then again as a longtime gamer I'm also extremely well accustomed to differentiating between fantasy and reality, and handling the two entirely differently. If there's one tragic truth it's that there are a very probably a great many absolutely stunningly ignorant people in this world that won't listen and learn in the first three quarters of a second that one hard spit isnt a viable lubricant and may well wind up progressing from igorance to full on fermented stupidity.

inBOIL · 05-03-2010, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

Lifestyle and socioeconomic status aside, I think people have a pretty firm grasp of reality vs. fantasy. It's why escapist activities such as marijuana use, TeeVee cop shows, chick flicks, and hardcore porn are so popular. We use... consume... these things because they decidedly not our reality.

I agree that most people easily make the distinction between fantasy and (their) reality, but the presentation of these thing in the media normalizes them. The repetition of these images causes people to think of them as normal, and their own experiences as abnormal. They then seek to 'fix' what they perceive as their own shortcomings. This is especially prevalent in those who are exposed to pornography before they're fully mature, or before they have (many) sexual experiences.

For every person who watches a porn couple go straight into full on anal piledriver mode with no warm-up or lube and rolls their eyes, there's another who wonders "why can't I do that?"

Plan9 · 05-03-2010, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inBOIL

...there's another who wonders "why can't I do that?"

And by another you mean Xerxys.

levite · 05-07-2010, 05:40 PM

I pretty much agree with everything that Plan9 posted. Excellent posting, dude.

Naomi Wolf has written some very interesting things, and her stuff on media literacy regarding advertising is generally quality. When it comes to sex, though, she has kind of a discomfort typical to many (but by no means all) 2nd-Wave Feminists with the notion that men might be horny enough to jack off a lot, and still want to have sex with their wives/girlfriends; and even more so that girls might like watching porn and masturbating a lot and being raunchy and earthy. One of the things I like best about 3rd-Wave Feminism is how much of a place there is for women feeling okay about their own horniness, and the freedom to express it with as much raunch and filth as they please, without having to feel either like a slut or like a betrayer of the Sisterhood-- that nastiness (in the best, happiest sense of the word) is not the sole property of men, but women can own it healthily also.

Plan9 · 05-07-2010, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by levite

Naomi Wolf has written some very interesting things, and her stuff on media literacy regarding advertising is generally quality. When it comes to sex, though, she has kind of a discomfort typical to many (but by no means all) 2nd-Wave Feminists with the notion that men might be horny enough to jack off a lot, and still want to have sex with their wives/girlfriends; and even more so that girls might like watching porn and masturbating a lot and being raunchy and earthy. One of the things I like best about 3rd-Wave Feminism is how much of a place there is for women feeling okay about their own horniness, and the freedom to express it with as much raunch and filth as they please, without having to feel either like a slut or like a betrayer of the Sisterhood-- that nastiness (in the best, happiest sense of the word) is not the sole property of men, but women can own it healthily also.

Say, is 3rd-Wave Feminism an actual term that I can look up? I'm curious.

SecretMethod70 · 05-07-2010, 08:48 PM

Yup: Third-wave feminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reno · 05-08-2010, 06:56 AM

I'm convinced! I'm giving up porn, and masturbation, and wild sexual adventures, and food and air and..........

Thrombatic Pyle · 05-08-2010, 07:10 AM

Naomi Wolfe on the surface is my kinda gal, attractive, kinda plump but she's come off as extraordinarily uptight and almost intolerant on the few TV shows I've seen her on. She's probably not a lot of fun. Still, great article.

cadre · 05-14-2010, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

...

Let's not discount the fact that people can be aware of the difference between reality and fantasy.

Otherwise... our highways would look like a cross between a NASCAR track and Die Hard 3.

...

Newsflash, people cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

I'm taking the opportunity to say this here. It relates to this topic and other topics discussed in this forum.

In my years as a human being, it has become quite clear to me that people can not tell the difference between reality and fantasy.

I agree.

So, one of the theorists I spent a lot of time studying in school was George Gerbner. His cultivation theory relates to tv but I think the concept can be applied here. The basic idea is that people who watch more than four hours of tv per day believe they're ten times more likely to be involved in an act of violence in the next ten days when compared to people who watch less than two hours per day. Violence is so prevalent on tv that people start to think that it's that common in reality too. Perhaps there's a similar effect for porn? If I sell my business and decide to go into a communication research field I love to find out.

On the other hand, I think some blame for these changes falls with the parents. Parents (in the US at least) seem to be leaving the sex ed up to the schools and the schools are really only using abstinence education.

I'd love to see some actual research be done on this topic.

Shadowex3 · 05-15-2010, 12:10 AM

The problem with either of those arguments Cadre is that they fundamentally and inherently require an increase in violence to occur in the real world in order to not be utterly disproved. Now... it's a common knowledge fact that media consumption (especially gaming) has risen to incredible levels, nearing absolute if not for the amish and extremely elderly.

According to the argument that media consumption, especially of violent media, leads to increased violence (or chance of violence) we should be up to our armpits in blood and corpses and the graphs brought forth always seem to show that... until you remember that while the violent crime rate has been rising fairly linearly our population has also been rising as well at a far greater rate and adjusted for population the actual rate of violent crime has been dropping fairly impressively ever since about 1994-1996 when it dropped like a stone.

The first gulf war ended in 1991, and most of the veterans would've probably been back by around 1993. The crime rate going up a little bit until then makes sense, but why would it take an immediate and almost violent 8 year nosedive starting in 1995-1996? What happened across the entire nation to cause that? My personal theory can be summed up in two words: Multiplayer Gaming. I admit correllation is not causation but for such a profound societal change to happen when nothing else particularly interesting was going on...

Plan9 · 05-15-2010, 09:01 AM

So now we've gone from porn to violence to media brainwashing. Oh, how all those Saturday mornings with Tom & Jerry have ruined our society.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadre

Newsflash, people cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

Haha, "newsflash." Yes, your Kung Fu must be stronger than mine. So, do you care to actually back this up with something tangible? A delicious anecdote perhaps? All this Weitzer & Kubrin (2004) and Reber & Chang (2000) paper-I-wrote-in-college stuff isn't very filling. I read those studies, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowex3

The first gulf war ended in 1991, and most of the veterans would've probably been back by around 1993. The crime rate going up a little bit until then makes sense, but why would it take an immediate and almost violent 8 year nosedive starting in 1995-1996?

Hilarious. You do realize the scope of the "Gulf War" in 1991, right? I've seen History Channel documentaries that lasted longer than the ground actions.

It is not particularly useful at proving something one way or the other. That and your argument seems to be way by-gamers-for-gamers.

I mean, I played a few games of Counterstrike in Iraq and Battlefield 2 in A-stan and I didn't come home and beat / sodomize my wife or rob a 7-11.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrombatic Pyle

Naomi Wolfe on the surface is my kinda gal, attractive, kinda plump but she's come off as extraordinarily uptight and almost intolerant on the few TV shows I've seen her on. She's probably not a lot of fun. Still, great article.

I don't know if this was supposed to be funny, but I find it amusing given the context of the thread.

mixedmedia · 05-15-2010, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowex3

The problem with either of those arguments Cadre is that they fundamentally and inherently require an increase in violence to occur in the real world in order to not be utterly disproved. Now... it's a common knowledge fact that media consumption (especially gaming) has risen to incredible levels, nearing absolute if not for the amish and extremely elderly.

According to the argument that media consumption, especially of violent media, leads to increased violence (or chance of violence) we should be up to our armpits in blood and corpses and the graphs brought forth always seem to show that... until you remember that while the violent crime rate has been rising fairly linearly our population has also been rising as well at a far greater rate and adjusted for population the actual rate of violent crime has been dropping fairly impressively ever since about 1994-1996 when it dropped like a stone.

The first gulf war ended in 1991, and most of the veterans would've probably been back by around 1993. The crime rate going up a little bit until then makes sense, but why would it take an immediate and almost violent 8 year nosedive starting in 1995-1996? What happened across the entire nation to cause that? My personal theory can be summed up in two words: Multiplayer Gaming. I admit correllation is not causation but for such a profound societal change to happen when nothing else particularly interesting was going on...

She wasn't claiming that violence was rising, but that the perception of vulnerability to violence was higher among people who watch more television.

And I think it is a perfectly good correlation to use for this subject.

It's pretty widely accepted that the images of people we see in magazines, movies and on television give young people unrealistic expectations as to what to expect from life and from their appearance. Not sure why porn would be any different.

cadre · 05-15-2010, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowex3

The problem with either of those arguments Cadre is that they fundamentally and inherently require an increase in violence to occur in the real world in order to not be utterly disproved. Now... it's a common knowledge fact that media consumption (especially gaming) has risen to incredible levels, nearing absolute if not for the amish and extremely elderly.

According to the argument that media consumption, especially of violent media, leads to increased violence (or chance of violence) we should be up to our armpits in blood and corpses and the graphs brought forth always seem to show that... until you remember that while the violent crime rate has been rising fairly linearly our population has also been rising as well at a far greater rate and adjusted for population the actual rate of violent crime has been dropping fairly impressively ever since about 1994-1996 when it dropped like a stone.

The first gulf war ended in 1991, and most of the veterans would've probably been back by around 1993. The crime rate going up a little bit until then makes sense, but why would it take an immediate and almost violent 8 year nosedive starting in 1995-1996? What happened across the entire nation to cause that? My personal theory can be summed up in two words: Multiplayer Gaming. I admit correllation is not causation but for such a profound societal change to happen when nothing else particularly interesting was going on...

You totally missed what I was saying here. I wasn't arguing that violent tv makes people violent. The research indicates that violent tv makes viewers believe we live in a violent society. People who watch high amount of tv do not cause more violence according to this theory, but they believe that violence is more prevalent and that the world is a scarier place than it actually is. Whether tv makes people violent is a much different conversation which I do not know much about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

So now we've gone from porn to violence to media brainwashing. Oh, how all those Saturday mornings with Tom & Jerry have ruined our society.

Haha, "newsflash." Yes, your Kung Fu must be stronger than mine. So, do you care to actually back this up with something tangible? A delicious anecdote perhaps? All this Weitzer & Kubrin (2004) and Reber & Chang (2000) paper-I-wrote-in-college stuff isn't very filling. I read those studies, too.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to make this about tv. My point was that maybe there is a similar pattern.

I happen to believe that research is a stronger argument than an anecdote. I don't know how a story will really be more persuasive. Maybe you can explain what you're asking for.

In the mean time, here's research. :P
Here's one of the articles about the Cultivation Theory:
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1994-97177-002
This book has some information about the research:
Television and its viewers ... - Google Books
Gerbner has a book that discusses all of his research as well...he's part of a research project that has been going on since the sixties.

Plan9 · 05-15-2010, 06:18 PM

I'm at TFP because I'd rather slam my nuts in a car door than wander the sterile halls of EbscoHost looking for stimulation.

As this is a discussion forum, I'm big on anecdotes. You argue that people can't differentiate between reality and fantasy.

What makes you believe this in your own life? You obviously wouldn't suggest such if you didn't actually believe it, right?

Above I proffered that most people can differentiate between the subjective terms "reality" and "fantasy" quite well.

Just curious... and for the sake of discussion... what makes you believe that they can't? ARTelevision's response was a tease.

If you're going to forward a position, at least give me / us something to chew on... lest this place become Reddit with better mods.

...

I'm so hungry.

inBOIL · 05-15-2010, 07:29 PM

What is reality but that which we're exposed to? We're not talking about large-scale discrepancies between life and media, but more subtle differences that are easier to internalize. If you expose people to videos of people flying around like superman, nobody's going to believe that. But if you show them scenes of violence, or unusual sexual behavior, those are more believable. They don't contradict your ideas about what is possible, but skew your understanding of what's happening by presenting an uncommon possibility as a common one. Any contradictory evidence that comes from your own experience is more likely to then be dismissed as abnormal.

Ourcrazymodern? · 05-26-2010, 08:15 AM

Maybe I don't know enough people, but I don't know anyone who would rather watch it than do it. Any confusion afforded by the watching is up to the beholder to deal with, like it was for all of us.

Baraka_Guru · 05-26-2010, 08:24 AM

The discussion about the differences between reality and fantasy is a difficult one. I think there are some clarifications required. I don't think it's just a matter of "Hey, I know it's just a movie!" I think it's about how the prevalence and volume of porn can formulate ideas of norms, when they aren't even close to being common practices. I don't think many women enjoy being sprayed with sperm. I could be wrong. I also don't think ass-to-mouth is very popular; again, I could be wrong.

Beyond that, in terms of the effect of porn on men, I'm sure there are varying results. I'm sure there are many men who use porn with little or no negative consequences, but I'm willing to believe that most heavy users of porn cannot escape the negative effects. I read recently in a newspaper something I'm willing to buy into: that porn, for many men, represents rejection, frustration, and even shame.

Plan9 · 05-26-2010, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

I read recently in a newspaper something I'm willing to buy into: that porn, for many men, represents rejection, frustration, and even shame.

This is interesting. I know that for myself there is a clear distinction between the drive to look at porn and the drive to have sex. With porn, it's about getting off. With sex, it's about fun. Most days I still wake up like the 40 Year Old Virgin. I'm not going to wait for it to deflate, ya know?

I also thinks its important to explore how porn is "consumed" by young people. Above I stated that I think that porn is the way it is because people have an increasingly short attention span and just want to get off. While there are always freaks to ruin the (relatively) good thing, I wouldn't say that porn is much different than any other type of indulgent reality (garbage) TeeVee these days. Whether the fantasy is plowing a redhead in some goth outfit or watching multiple airheads bobble through life a la The Hills or The City, the drive and result is the same: "That's awesome, I feel better/placated/whatever, it's not my life but I like watching it, I'll watch it again when I feel the itch, now I can go focus on my boring but satisfying reality."

I should probably let this go here. I don't wanna be that "soap operas are just emotional porn for women" guy in this thread.

Baraka_Guru · 05-26-2010, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

This is interesting.

By no means is this meant as a universal be-all and end-all of porn, but I'm willing to believe it's largely the case.

The argument was addressing the impact of porn in general. It acknowledged how porn is often (usually?) a negative (i.e. degrading) view of women: objects of pleasure for men. But it points out the above as something that's not so obvious or simply overlooked: that men watching porn isn't necessarily "all good."

I think there is a difference between the scenario you outlined above and why many men consume porn: sure it's about getting off, but what is can become is more akin to sex addiction, sexual dysfunction, and other psychological issues. Some people have just the getting off, but none of the fun, especially when post-porn guilt is a factor.

Plan9 · 05-26-2010, 09:14 AM

Yeah, back to the OP.

I think it's hard to gauge the effects on porn on young people partly because of what ebb and flow we have in non-sexual social arenas (simple equity between the sexes on a range of issues that essentially erode "traditional" gender roles) and how mainstream the sexual arena has become today (thar's tits on TeeVee, Jethro!). On the continuum, I'd say we're, everyday Western society, somewhere between Roman orgies and Victorian denial... getting closer to Rome every day it seems. I'm not complaining... I'm hoping to find an athletic sex partner again. Wait, where was I going?

And you're right, porn is a problem when it's the sole source of sexual input in someone's life. Without tempering gonzo fantasy with the realities of a sexual relationship, it's easy for people (obese middle-aged white guys) to have really distorted views of sex and women. While the age of the "consumer" plays into the this-is-sex-because-this-is-what-I've-seen bit, I'd imagine a large part of it is also this-is-sex-because-this-is-all-I've-done bit. Age is an important factor, but not the sole factor in how porn "damages" people who haven't had a in-the-flesh sexual experience. There is an argument out there that today's just-like-crack Web-based porn is actually more damaging to middle-aged individuals who have isolated social networks and are basically stuck in their ways. Young people have a chance to evolve by going through society's meatgrinders (high school, college, military, and the attached social circles); these guys, generally speaking, don't, as they are creatures of habit and said habit includes their little life bubble.

cameroncrazy822 · 05-27-2010, 08:01 AM

erections and lubrication

Plan9 · 05-27-2010, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cameroncrazy822

erections and lubrication

/thread

Meier_Link · 05-30-2010, 08:00 PM

I'm going to say that porn is not responsible for "deadening male libido". I think that is probably more the result of ejaculating too frequently, be it watching porn with a tissue or jerking off with a bar of soap in the shower. I don't know about the rest of you, but the less I get off the hornier I am.

As for the effects it has on the kinds of sex people are having, I think it's probably expanded some peoples horizons in terms of what they consider acceptable. I'm sure there are always idiots who will try to emulate exactly what they see in porn, but most people will probably discuss it first, maybe find out how to do it right.

Bear Cub · 05-31-2010, 02:55 PM

Whoa whoa whoa...

I WASN'T supposed to give facials on the first date?

Baraka_Guru · 05-31-2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Cub

I WASN'T supposed to give facials on the first date?

Just how many first dates have you had?

Bear Cub · 05-31-2010, 06:14 PM

If by "first date" you mean day of the year in which I had administered a facial whilst courting fresh meat, then a bunch. Though apparently since I'd been doing it wrong, I suppose the astonishing numbers came in the way of second date counts.

Derwood · 06-04-2010, 06:20 PM

I think there's a connection. I can see the most erotic images/videos in the world and I don't even get a semi anymore.

Plan9 · 06-04-2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

I think there's a connection. I can see the most erotic images/videos in the world and I don't even get a semi anymore.

/Married w/ Children joke

Strange Famous · 06-05-2010, 12:19 AM

None of this seems to have any relation to my own feelings of experiences. Any real life situation I have been in has seemed infinitely more exciting than pornography. Maybe you can pick up a few tips about technique I suppose, but I think anyone of ordinary intelligence can tell they are courting danger if they assume a girl they just started dating is gonna be happy about being slapped in the face, spat on, given a facial - as in some porno video's

And I cannot imagine how anal sex can appeal to any heterosexual male. The idea of it makes me shudder personally. I have no idea why it so often performed in pornographic movies, because the target of these movies is of course young heterosexual men, who will naturally have an aversion to this act.

05-03-2010, 03:40 AM	#2 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Hey, Mr. Friendly is back. What's up, stranger? How about you post more than once a year, bro? ... The thread: Porn is fantasy. It is the way it is today because people have a short attention span and just wanna get off. I'd clocked about ten lightyears on my palm before I'd had real sex and I assure you porn didn't turn me into a monster. But yeah, one person, say, the guy that likes to __extreme porn act__ on the first date, always ruins it for the rest of us. "No, Johnny... ejaculating on her face isn't a good way to say goodnight." Hmm, maybe that's just a product of bad parenting? ... Let's not discount the fact that people can be aware of the difference between reality and fantasy. Otherwise... our highways would look like a cross between a NASCAR track and Die Hard 3. ... The type of sexual activities your first (few) partners are into has just as much impact as whatever porn you watch. I know that I base my preferences on positive reinforcements from my first girlfriend during our "WTF is sex?" phase. ... And, yeah, porn isn't killing my sex life. I did it three times yesterday afternoon. I prefer The Real Thing (TM). __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 05-03-2010 at 03:57 AM..

05-03-2010, 04:18 AM	#3 (permalink)
MrFriendly Psycho Location: Australia	Hey hey man! You should see me around a little more, I'm unemployed at the moment and have little else to do........ except look for new work I guess, haha. As for porn..... You know I sometimes wonder if I had no access to porn what so ever, I might just be more motivated to go out and have sex with women, or at least try. But that just might possibly have more to do with the fact I'm just not very sexually driven. __________________ You are not a slave

05-03-2010, 05:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	I'm taking the opportunity to say this here. It relates to this topic and other topics discussed in this forum. In my years as a human being, it has become quite clear to me that people can not tell the difference between reality and fantasy. __________________ create evolution

05-03-2010, 07:47 AM	#6 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	I'm too far removed from my young adult years to discuss with any knowledge basis. I just wanted to mention the website Make Love Not Porn :: Porn World vs. Real World , which comes from a similar angle. There was a related TED talk as well. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

05-03-2010, 08:19 AM	#7 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I could swear this thread and the related links were posted here like 3 months ago. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

05-03-2010, 03:47 PM	#9 (permalink)
MrFriendly Psycho Location: Australia	There was an interesting trend down here in Aus where more people were consuming amateur porn instead of produced stuff. Question is, are people turning to that because it actually is more real, or because we're inherently voyeuristic? __________________ You are not a slave

05-03-2010, 04:22 PM	#10 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I would say that while people are generally able to differentiate between reality and fantasy, their is often a lot of smudging around the edges. I'd suggest it's because people don't want reality or it's that fantasy is a powerful thing that can influence on levels that we not always conscious about. I think there is something to be said for some of what was posited in the article. Just as trends, needs and wants can be manufactured on Madison Avenue so too, it is possible to extrapolate, can sexual trends, needs and wants be manufactured in the San Fernando Valley. As the article points out, it was not all that long ago that anal sex and facials were exceedingly rare in everyday sex. Now they are as mainstream as missionary. It wasn't long ago that a hairy pussy was the norm. Today, if a woman doesn't shave it bare, or at least keep it very trimmed, she is deemed to be a hairy monster. I didn't see this trend start to happen until I started seeing it in porn. I am not making a judgment on this. I like all of these things. I am simply pointing out the correlation between porn and the mainstreaming of certain sexual acts and trends. I would suggest that just as body image is mass marketed by Madison Avenue, so too has our sexual image been shaped and marketed by the San Fernando Valley. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-07-2010, 05:40 PM	#15 (permalink)
levite Minion of Joss Location: The Windy City	I pretty much agree with everything that Plan9 posted. Excellent posting, dude. Naomi Wolf has written some very interesting things, and her stuff on media literacy regarding advertising is generally quality. When it comes to sex, though, she has kind of a discomfort typical to many (but by no means all) 2nd-Wave Feminists with the notion that men might be horny enough to jack off a lot, and still want to have sex with their wives/girlfriends; and even more so that girls might like watching porn and masturbating a lot and being raunchy and earthy. One of the things I like best about 3rd-Wave Feminism is how much of a place there is for women feeling okay about their own horniness, and the freedom to express it with as much raunch and filth as they please, without having to feel either like a slut or like a betrayer of the Sisterhood-- that nastiness (in the best, happiest sense of the word) is not the sole property of men, but women can own it healthily also. __________________ Dull sublunary lovers love, Whose soul is sense, cannot admit Absence, because it doth remove That thing which elemented it. (From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

05-07-2010, 08:48 PM	#17 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Yup: Third-wave feminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

05-08-2010, 06:56 AM	#18 (permalink)
Reno Upright Location: The Flyover zone	I'm convinced! I'm giving up porn, and masturbation, and wild sexual adventures, and food and air and.......... __________________ Some lessons are painful to learn, but they are all worth learning!

05-08-2010, 07:10 AM	#19 (permalink)
Thrombatic Pyle Upright	Naomi Wolfe on the surface is my kinda gal, attractive, kinda plump but she's come off as extraordinarily uptight and almost intolerant on the few TV shows I've seen her on. She's probably not a lot of fun. Still, great article.

05-15-2010, 06:18 PM	#25 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I'm at TFP because I'd rather slam my nuts in a car door than wander the sterile halls of EbscoHost looking for stimulation. As this is a discussion forum, I'm big on anecdotes. You argue that people can't differentiate between reality and fantasy. What makes you believe this in your own life? You obviously wouldn't suggest such if you didn't actually believe it, right? Above I proffered that most people can differentiate between the subjective terms "reality" and "fantasy" quite well. Just curious... and for the sake of discussion... what makes you believe that they can't? ARTelevision's response was a tease. If you're going to forward a position, at least give me / us something to chew on... lest this place become Reddit with better mods. ... I'm so hungry. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 05-15-2010 at 06:26 PM..

05-15-2010, 07:29 PM	#26 (permalink)
inBOIL I have eaten the slaw	What is reality but that which we're exposed to? We're not talking about large-scale discrepancies between life and media, but more subtle differences that are easier to internalize. If you expose people to videos of people flying around like superman, nobody's going to believe that. But if you show them scenes of violence, or unusual sexual behavior, those are more believable. They don't contradict your ideas about what is possible, but skew your understanding of what's happening by presenting an uncommon possibility as a common one. Any contradictory evidence that comes from your own experience is more likely to then be dismissed as abnormal. __________________ And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

05-26-2010, 08:15 AM	#27 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Maybe I don't know enough people, but I don't know anyone who would rather watch it than do it. Any confusion afforded by the watching is up to the beholder to deal with, like it was for all of us. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

05-26-2010, 08:24 AM	#28 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	The discussion about the differences between reality and fantasy is a difficult one. I think there are some clarifications required. I don't think it's just a matter of "Hey, I know it's just a movie!" I think it's about how the prevalence and volume of porn can formulate ideas of norms, when they aren't even close to being common practices. I don't think many women enjoy being sprayed with sperm. I could be wrong. I also don't think ass-to-mouth is very popular; again, I could be wrong. Beyond that, in terms of the effect of porn on men, I'm sure there are varying results. I'm sure there are many men who use porn with little or no negative consequences, but I'm willing to believe that most heavy users of porn cannot escape the negative effects. I read recently in a newspaper something I'm willing to buy into: that porn, for many men, represents rejection, frustration, and even shame. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

05-26-2010, 09:14 AM	#31 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Yeah, back to the OP. I think it's hard to gauge the effects on porn on young people partly because of what ebb and flow we have in non-sexual social arenas (simple equity between the sexes on a range of issues that essentially erode "traditional" gender roles) and how mainstream the sexual arena has become today (thar's tits on TeeVee, Jethro!). On the continuum, I'd say we're, everyday Western society, somewhere between Roman orgies and Victorian denial... getting closer to Rome every day it seems. I'm not complaining... I'm hoping to find an athletic sex partner again. Wait, where was I going? And you're right, porn is a problem when it's the sole source of sexual input in someone's life. Without tempering gonzo fantasy with the realities of a sexual relationship, it's easy for people (obese middle-aged white guys) to have really distorted views of sex and women. While the age of the "consumer" plays into the this-is-sex-because-this-is-what-I've-seen bit, I'd imagine a large part of it is also this-is-sex-because-this-is-all-I've-done bit. Age is an important factor, but not the sole factor in how porn "damages" people who haven't had a in-the-flesh sexual experience. There is an argument out there that today's just-like-crack Web-based porn is actually more damaging to middle-aged individuals who have isolated social networks and are basically stuck in their ways. Young people have a chance to evolve by going through society's meatgrinders (high school, college, military, and the attached social circles); these guys, generally speaking, don't, as they are creatures of habit and said habit includes their little life bubble. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 05-26-2010 at 09:27 AM..

05-27-2010, 08:01 AM	#32 (permalink)
cameroncrazy822 Junkie Location: MD	erections and lubrication

05-30-2010, 08:00 PM	#34 (permalink)
Meier_Link Psycho Location: in a state of confusion	I'm going to say that porn is not responsible for "deadening male libido". I think that is probably more the result of ejaculating too frequently, be it watching porn with a tissue or jerking off with a bar of soap in the shower. I don't know about the rest of you, but the less I get off the hornier I am. As for the effects it has on the kinds of sex people are having, I think it's probably expanded some peoples horizons in terms of what they consider acceptable. I'm sure there are always idiots who will try to emulate exactly what they see in porn, but most people will probably discuss it first, maybe find out how to do it right. __________________ life is a sexually transmitted disease

05-31-2010, 02:55 PM	#35 (permalink)
Bear Cub The Reverend Side Boob Location: Nofe Curolina	Whoa whoa whoa... I WASN'T supposed to give facials on the first date? __________________ Living in the United Socialist States of America.

05-31-2010, 06:14 PM	#37 (permalink)
Bear Cub The Reverend Side Boob Location: Nofe Curolina	If by "first date" you mean day of the year in which I had administered a facial whilst courting fresh meat, then a bunch. Though apparently since I'd been doing it wrong, I suppose the astonishing numbers came in the way of second date counts. __________________ Living in the United Socialist States of America.

06-04-2010, 06:20 PM	#38 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	I think there's a connection. I can see the most erotic images/videos in the world and I don't even get a semi anymore. __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

06-05-2010, 12:19 AM	#40 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	None of this seems to have any relation to my own feelings of experiences. Any real life situation I have been in has seemed infinitely more exciting than pornography. Maybe you can pick up a few tips about technique I suppose, but I think anyone of ordinary intelligence can tell they are courting danger if they assume a girl they just started dating is gonna be happy about being slapped in the face, spat on, given a facial - as in some porno video's And I cannot imagine how anal sex can appeal to any heterosexual male. The idea of it makes me shudder personally. I have no idea why it so often performed in pornographic movies, because the target of these movies is of course young heterosexual men, who will naturally have an aversion to this act. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas