Push-Pull

Ok, I surf. Some of the sites I hit have porn vids. But some of the stuff I see might be considered beyond the norm. Vomit, urine, feces, and such. Now, I just pass the stuff up, as I myself don't see anything erotic about it, but yet there it is as if it were today's hot seller. I'm curious, but is there actually a large enough group watching this to warrant this kind of stuff to keep cropping up?

__________________
"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me-

"Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown-

DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

telekinetic

I think this might be appropriate for this thread, before it goes much farther, as it is posted at the top of 'off the wayside':

This is in a subforum the specific purpose of which is to showcase all but one of the activities you classify as 'really sick stuff'.

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twisted no more

Siege

What's sexy to one might not be to others.

And generally, people are getting more and more in touch with what they find erotic. Some things that I don't find the least bit erotic might seem very much so to others.

It's a big big world, so even if 0.5% of the population finds something erotic, there is a market for it.

__________________
"Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek"

--Kevin Smith

This part just makes my posts easier to find

Push-Pull

You know, I have to apologize. My intentions were not of ill-will. I really didn't think of it that way, and should have thought better of it before I posted. As such, I have re-worked my OP to be a little less aggressive and more in line with what I had in mind.

Mods, please feel free to handle this however you feel appropriate.

__________________
"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me-

"Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown-

DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

telekinetic

I didn't mean to imply that you purposefully made this thread with ill intent. It is just a fact of the life that people are turned on by what turns them on, and there isn't much more logic to it than that.

I've decided we have very little choice in what turns us on. If what turns you on happens to be illegal (or not achievable outside the bounds of fantasy without harming another person or yourself), then it is your responsibility to not act on those fantasies, but I do not believe a person should be judged for having them.

To answer your question, yes, there is a market for everything. To eliminate your perceived problem, perhaps you should be more discriminating of where you acquire your pornography.

__________________
twisted no more

Push-Pull

And I agree. I simply did not think to make that point. T'was not my intention to condemn anyone.


D-oh! (smacks forehead) Well, yeah you have a point. That's the trouble with some sites, they kinda try the shotgun approach, and there's a little bit for everyone. As mentioned, I pass over it without a second thought, and all is well. I don't perceive it as a problem, it just got me curious is all.....

Next time I try posting when I'm tired, someone please smack me first.

__________________
"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me-

"Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown-

DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

ratbastid

Well, it's interesting. I agree that judgment is inappropriate, but I'm pretty curious about the formation of fetishes. Fetishism is recognized as a disorder in both the DSM and the ICD (both of which have diagnostic guidelines involving it being an impairment to the fetishist's life--job, social contacts, etc--so casual fetishes or things that don't become obsessive aren't classified as disorders).

Freud said that a man's fetish forms as the result of the sexual trauma and castration anxiety arising from discovering that his mother doesn't have a penis--he latches onto some object or behavior as a compensation for the missing wang. Freud never considered female fetishists. Like most of the rest of what Freud said, it's been largely discredited. Guy had mommy issues.

The current theory is that fetish formation is a result of Pavlovian "classical conditioning", where the object of the fetish is associated with sexual stimulation over time, and the association strengthens itself as it is associated.

It makes sense. Orgasm is probably the strongest positive reward you could associate things with. When I was trying to get over a girlfriend once, I noticed that when I masturbated, I thought about her. I saw that I was actually conditioning myself to miss her. Over a matter of a few weeks I trained myself to NOT think about her while masturbating, and before long I found myself over her.

I'm not entirely convinced about it, though, at least as we define "sexual fetish" in practice. I'd be very interested to hear from submissives and masochists (or vomit/urine/scat fetishists, if we have any here) about whether there was some incident they can remember of pain or humiliation (or those fetishized um things) being associated with sexual arousal, and if their sexual development followed the path of classical conditioning.

abaya

I'd be very interested in hearing this stuff too, but I have a feeling that as long as the thread title is as harsh as it is, people aren't going to be willing to step up and share about it... for fear of being considered "*Really* sick" in the head or something.

From the little knowledge I have of the subject (I've done some reading, not least including Dan Savage's column), I think that some people are exposed to pain/humiliation at some earlier point in their lives, but it's not the majority. Some people really have no identifiable source for their desires... and I think twistedmosaic had it right there, in saying that certain things turn certain people on, and don't turn others on... and that's all there is to it. There isn't any other real way of explaining it, other than different strokes (whips, chains) for different folks.

I have read a few times that submissives tend to be, in large part, men... and often men who are in high positions of power with a responsibility to control a lot of things in their day-to-day lives, and so by night they want someone who can control them, to take the pressure off, so to speak. But again, this doesn't apply to everyone.

Makes me miss Gilda, though... wonder where she's gone to. She always had a lot of good insight on this topic.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Anxst

I think some of the reason sites tend to push the weirder stuff these days is also for sheer business sense. People with kinks, no matter what they are, are willing to spend money when they find something that's different and really really turns them on. It's a "Anyone can download free porn, but THIS site knows what I want!" kind of thing...and those people spend money. Sometimes a lot of it. Sometimes for years.

I have to admit that I'd pay money if I found a website that ran specifically to my weirdnesses. They probably exist, I just haven't found them yet.

__________________
Don't mind me. I'm just releasing the insanity pressure from my headvalves.

mixedmedia

Well, I don't have any scatalogical fetishes, but I do consider myself to be oriented toward fetishistic behavior. I don't think of them as *sick* but some people might and I think that is all relative. I am a female and I am a sexual submissive. I like to be pushed, pulled, forced, used, spanked, pinched, raped and otherwise frightened and, to some extent, humiliated during sex. With varying degrees of intensity - meaning, I don't always need a high-powered intensive D/s session to get off during sex - but even with more "traditional" sex, when we are engaging in more traditional, balanced sex roles, there is some element of D/s in there...even if it's just in my head. Luckily for me, I have found a man to corrupt into playing a dominant role with me in bed. And he has adopted the role with mucho gusto, lol.

As for where this came from, I honestly cannot remember a time (post discovering masturbation) when I didn't have fantasies of being sexually dominated. I have no idea where it came from. The obvious cause could be that my mother left my father when I was young and I went through most of my years growing up without a steady father figure in my life. That could be it...but it doesn't feel that way to me. If anything, I feel it's more closely linked to an intense shyness that I had as a child. I can't say how, but I think somehow it evolved out of that...combined with my fascination with Captain Kirk as a very young child. Seriously. I think in the primal scheme of things, I am just a submissive animal. And I am turned on by being the sexual object of an animal who is more powerful.

Using the word "object" calls up another fetishistic aspect of it which is considerably more difficult for me to admit to and talk about and that is the concept that I am, sometimes, not an autonomous person of freewill, but a sexual object to be used completely at the whim of another. Having someone to safely express this aspect of myself with is incredibly exhilarating. And by safely, I mean, with someone who handles the responsibility for exploiting it with awareness and discrimination and who respects that this doesn't carry over into my life at large. After all, I am quite a determined and individualistic sort of person when all is said and done. I used to not be so, but I have no intention, at this point in my life, of being pushed around or taken advantage of.

I also have other fetishes...stockings, corsets, bondage...it's all tied together, though, no pun intended, heh heh. The thing that's kind of significant about my stocking fetish, is that I never considered my interest in stockings to be a fetish (it was always more of a fashion thing for me - sexy, yes, but not fetish-y) until I met someone who has a bonafied stocking fetish. Now, stockings have a whole new sexual relevance for me. Seeing pictures of them - especially a garter cutting into soft flesh or the way they wrinkle around where the garter attaches to the top of the stocking, putting them on, snapping the garters, seeing the way he reacts when he caresses the spot where the top of the stocking meets the flesh of my thigh or when he tugs on the tops of them while we are having sex...all this has brought a whole new fetish-y significance to my appreciation of stockings. I guess I am very suggestible when it comes to some fetishes...especially where the fetishes of my dominant partner are concerned. I can't say for sure where my hard limits might be if he expressed a desire for something...other than no animals and no children, yadda, yadda, yadda...

I don't know if this addresses the OP, but I don't get a lot of opportunities to yap about my proclivities...I think it does me good...and ratbastid and abaya asked.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ratbastid

Agreed. The more we can shed light on the spectrum of human sexual behavior, the more we're all able to accept each others' (and our own) differences.

Sultana

*Note to self: purchase real garter belt and stockings ASAP!*

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Strange Famous

I suppose some people just want to do things that are forbidden... and the more and more permissive society goes, the further they have to go to the boundries....

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

mixedmedia

I don't think this is true. Maybe to some extent, but a person does not get into extreme forms of sexual gratification just because it is easily available to look at. Maybe they will look out of curiosity, but one has to be pretty well turned on to, say scat or heavy bondage, in order to enjoy looking at it regularly.

If you look at the history of sexuality, you will see that there have always been people who seek out alternative forms of sexual gratification. Nothing that people are doing for sexual gratification these days (technological advances aside) is something that people weren't doing 100, 200, 500 years ago.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Strange Famous

of course, I never stated that society becoming more permissive was a uniquely modern or recent thing.

I agree that some people have always been driven to go do things that are forbidden for sexual excitement.

The wider availability of pornography probably just puts more extreme idea's into more people's heads.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

mixedmedia

Perhaps you are right about that. I don't doubt that the wider availability of non-mainstrem pornography has also widened people's perceptions when it comes to what turns them on. But I am more skeptical of the idea that simply seeing various fetishes on the internet creates a significant amount of new fetishists. I see out-of-the-mainstream sexual acts on the internet all the time that don't strike me as arousing. An avid interest in extreme forms of sexuality is usually found to be rooted in pre-pubescent development - not something that just strikes you one day as an adult while you are browsing on the internet. In other words, someone who is interested in scat or heavy bdsm will be much more likely to be on the internet LOOKING for that kind of material rather than happening upon it by chance.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Push-Pull

Well now, I'm quite surprised that this thread has actually become something of poise after how badly I butchered it to begin with.

NOTE>>>> Mods, please change the title to something more appropriate if at all possible. Something like Strange Fetishes or the like would do nicely. Thanks!

Anyhow, I too have to wonder if the injection of these types of videos into society "waters down" what is considered taboo and such. It does seem that in all media that what is shown has become more and more "shocking" as time goes on. I really do feel that there is a correlation somehow.....

__________________
"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me-

"Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown-

DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

mixedmedia

I supppose so. But the qualifier "taboo" has always been set by those who feel there is something wrong with various types of non-mainstream sexual activity. Including, at one time, homosexual activity. I don't think watering down what is essentially a judgment call made by others on some people's sexual preferences is necessarily a bad thing. *shrug*

There...I changed the title...

Let me know if you don't like it...seriously, and I will change it.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Push-Pull

Thanks!

__________________
"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me-

"Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown-

DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

healer

Someone once said "It all comes down to the 'Ick-Factor' of the individual". I don't quite remember who it was, or if I'm quoting accurately...but you get the picture.

I think every generation is seen as more progressive than the one before it. What my parents considered acutely strange and taboo might be completely run-of-the-mill to me. The more we're exposed to things that shock us, the less they're likely to shock us in the future. Where seeing a woman being fisted with two hands and taking a baseball bat up her ass might have elicited an "OMG" a few years back, right now, all it'll get is a "hmmm, flexy".

__________________

abaya

Okay, that got a little more than a "hmm, flexy" comment from me!! OWWWWWWW!

Anyway, I've observed that some kinks are further off the "ick" charts than others. Whenever kink topics come up on TFP, I've noticed that BDSM tend to be the "safest" topic, while "scat/urine" tend to be lumped together as the "most extreme." Why is that? Is human waste the extreme limit of kink (excluding pedophilia and bestiality, which it seems everyone agrees is OVER the limit)? The closest I've seen is that people like bloodplay and/or choking, but even that seems safer to discuss than non-sexual body fluids.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Sharon

Probably because we've all been conditioned to be disgusted by urine and faeces from a very early age, both the presence of it, the smell etc. A baby filling a diaper is probably greeted by a mother who obviously does not like the poopoo... and that surely has to factor into any psychological association.

abaya

Good point, Sharon. But do urine and fecal fetishes always go together, since people tend to lump them when discussing kinks? Do some people like one, but not the other?

In my mind, poop is "dirtier" than pee, but that's only my own association... though biologically, I suppose that's also true (I have read that urine is sterile when it exits the body, which poop certainly isn't). I also think blood is more dangerous than either of those two bodily excretions, but again, my own "ick" factor there.

Personally, I have an "ick" factor about ALL body fluids other than spit , but I did get used to semen after awhile. Which is probably just as "dirty" as the rest (in terms of possibility of contamination/STD's). I guess it's all relative.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

mixedmedia

I also believe the aversion to scat/urine play can be more closely associated with the "ick" factor than the "taboo" factor. Although, really, I think it's fair to say that far more people would be willing to participate in a little "golden showers" activity than scat. I know I would be...and I'm not into either of them.

Plus there is the distinction between those who just like to watch people going to the bathroom and those who actually like to play with it. There's a big difference between those two.

But, like abaya, personally...I find blood play, cuttings, anything that involves drawing blood to be just about the most extreme thing I could imagine myself doing.

Breath play, less so. Actually, this was mentioned to me the other day...in a playful way. Made me think about it, though...I don't know...

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ratbastid

It's interesting, isn't it, abaya? Our personal level of squick seems to have little to do with biological reality.

In terms of STD/HIV risk, blood and semen are completely equal. Semen may be riskier, actually, because producing it generally involves genital contact, and that can spread illnesses that aren't bloodborne. But we're way more grossed out by blood.

To nudge us back toward the OP, the other thing about fetishes is their transgressive nature. That transgression alone is attractive to some (all?) people.

abaya

Right, I'm with you there. Which is why I don't really think "urine/scat" should be lumped together, because personally I'd be alright with urine, but not with scat... and I can't imagine that you and I are the only people who feel that way. Unless, of course, shit is a by-product of anal, and then it's tolerable (which somehow makes it different than being a fetish).

Funny, all this stuff comes out of the same regions as our sexual organs, and yet we have such different, visceral reactions to it. Shit, piss, blood, semen, vaginal fluid, female ejaculate... there are only 2-3 holes down there (depending on your sex), so it all has to come out somewhere! So what is it that makes some things sexual, and other things disgusting? E.g. I don't have a problem having sex on my period, but I could never deal with it as a "fetish" type behavior (e.g. getting turned on by blood).

I guess we all draw different lines in our heads. I still don't get turned on by body fluid of any kind, other than spit... but I'm a lot more understanding now, of how some body fluids do turn people on (thank you, TFP!), and that's alright with me.

Missed this addition earlier... but yeah, I agree. Some people are drawn to taboos. Me, not so much (damn my goody-two-shoe-ness), but I can understand where others are coming from and appreciate that. Being on TFP, as well as checking out porn, I understand that the range of sexual preference/attraction is almost inexplicable, and inexhaustible. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, and both parties are mutually consenting and of age, have fun!!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

mixedmedia

Yes, there's definitely a distinction between dealing with shit and wanting to deal with shit.

I don't understand the fetish, but I think I do understand the compelling nature of fetish therefore, eh, to each his own.

Well, I think in the case of sexual fluids...that's what they are for and they are ubitquitous in the act of sex, therefore we don't usually think of them as objectionable (and very often find them to be a turn-on.) At least not to the extent that we do blood and waste. I'm sure it's probably biological.

I'm sure this is true in the case of bizarre turn-ons and curiosities, rather than real fetishes...And there is a quite a significance between the two. A significance that, I think, is really more relevant to the question in the OP. I'll wager that a large segment of the traffic visiting the web sites Push-Pull is referring to are casual devotees, thrillseekers and the curious. Now is this watering down what we think of as "taboo"? I don't know, I don't think so. I think the vast majority of people will always believe that certain "extreme" practices are too "out there" for them ever to be considered normal.

Fetishes, in my mind, do not come from a need to be different or to dabble in that which is taboo. I believe it's a much more personal psychological quirk than that and it's evident in the concentrated focus most fetishists have for their fetish. If they were just wanting to do things that are "forbidden" they might engage in a much wider range of fetishistic behaviors. No, I think the transgressive thrill is much more likely to be found in the curiousity seekers than the people who have fetishes.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Sharon

Purely in terms of ick factor, most people would generally agree that shit is much more intrusive in making its presence known. Evolutionists might argue that the reason we find the smell foul is for health and preservation reasons. Urine doesn't have such a sharp smell (unless of course you don't drink enough water or have a really odd diet... in which case your shit is likely to be really weird too).

I do have friends who faint even at the mention of blood... not sure what causes that.

hunnychile

This is quickly becoming one of the more interesting posts here in a LONG Long time. It is especially interesting, since I have recently been wondering if I personally have been far too uptight about watching videos that include "water sports"... just because it used to be considered wrong or bad. And yet, the fact that it's bad seems intriguing. It sits better in my mind that tfp doesn't get too "out there" with scat and vomit, cuz most of us seem pretty grossed out by those excretions. And we are a diverse group of more evolved types sharing information for the evolution of man/woman kind. Just had to drop this in here. Please continue and thanks for such well thought out and scholarly written input. We do seem to keep evolving and I think fetishes is one of the most interesting of topics we can discuss!

__________________
"I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

Hyacinthe

I'm a nursing student and I work part time in an aged care facility (nursing home) primarily with demtnia patients. To me there's nothing forbidden or gross about blood, urine, vomit or faeces, I clean them all up or test them on a daily basis. I don't find them a turn on but I have a few fetishes of my own that I know not everyone shares and this makes it easier for me to accept that some people do / will be aroused by these actions. Maybe it also plays into humiliation fantasies whether they be to be humiliated or be humiliated, not sure on that one.

Getting back to the OP though I have to agree with Anxst

People always pay more for something that is rare or even that they just believe is rare, think how much some people will spend on antiques or leather clothing or any type of item that particularly interests them, especially if that item is not perceived as 'normal'. The porn sites have realised this and are putting it out there as a "well look see we cater to your desires come on in" it's a form of advertising.

__________________
"I want to be remembered as the girl who always smiles even when her heart is broken... and the one that could brighten up your day even if she couldnt brighten her own"

"Her emotions were clear waters. You could see the scarring and pockmarks at the bottom of the pool, but it was just a part of her landscape – the consequences of others’ actions in which she claimed no part."

abaya

Good point, MM. I think you've made an accurate distinction between people who might "want to try out" something new/forbidden, versus those who *need* to realize their fetish, beyond any level of curiosity. For those who are psychologically connected to the fetish behavior, there is no way around it... without that behavior in their lives, they remain unfulfilled. Which is what makes them different from the curiosity-seekers.

And with regards to what the porn industry provides, I agree with this as well... Yep, it's just plain good business. Consider how Google puts "related" ads for things on your webpage after you search (or in Gmail, if you have that)... it's looking for things you might be interested in, to draw you in more. Same for porn.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Strange Famous

I think, which is a related point, that the increasing penetration of violent pornography and those who fetishize violence as sexuality (S&M and so on) into the mainstream is a very dangerous thing.

I am happy to believe that some people may be perfectly able to tie each other up and spank each other's backsides and so on in a way that it is titilating to them without being emotionally or physically damaging (although I would guess it is emotionally damaging in many cases if it isnt in all)

But at the same time, the spread of pornography that is based upon violence, force and cruelty cannot but be a grave danger to society, cannot help but ferment dark thoughts in some individuals who have the possibility for darkness in their make up or their up-bringing. For sites that basically portray fantasies of rape and extreme torture... they are surely pouring petrol on a fire in many disturbed minds. (and of course, some people may "enjoy" such things without ever being likely to carry them out - but the damage it would do is the same, even if it is slight - each day it must make dark things seem, if not more possible for them, more acceptable in the world and their mind.)

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas