Miss Mango

I think the term 'slut' should be stricken from the vocabulary.
I don't think the concept does anything good.

But beyond that, heres my theory-
In some ways, sex is a certain kind of power that women have over men: Men want it, are taught to seek it, and the act in itself is a validation of male identity. If you pull women, you're a man, gosh darn it. Other men see that, and congratulate that man over his capability.

However I think that for women, even though they might enjoy it just as much as men, the act of sex does not affirm feminine identity. Women see one girl get with a lot of guys, but so what? They could do what it takes to do that if they wanted. So it's more like eating good food - It's nice, but it's not who you are. Feminine identity is derived by other means. However sex might be necessary as a tool of manipulation in order to get to that validating act or status.

Thus if a girl has sex with a lot of guys, she not exercising the tool towards the current socially agreed-upon feminine goal. She is giving up her power over men (who might be key to the sought after-status) in a mostly one-way transaction. She is giving without receiving.

Sex is not bad, nor is having it with everyone you want. What is bad is to not look out for your interests, and to allow yourself to be used without getting what you want.

I guess the current definition of 'slut' would be an overly derogatory description for someone with an inaccurately low self worth.
Unfortunately, it seems to be reserved for just girls. If I called a guy-friend a slut, he'd just chuckle.
Not only that, womens fear of social ostracization from such things strikes fear so deeply within them, I think words like this truly are a cancer.

This is one of the reasons I think feminism should be promoted, and masculism should be developed as it's mirror reflection and counterpoint. They are vehicles of academic and political development in order to better understand each other and fix those deep seated, festering gender issues in our society.

The number of men doesn't matter unless doing it undermines your goal with those men, be it a relationship, social status, gold-mining, their adoration, or whatever.

On the other hand, if you put out with a guy who does not bear any potential for you, then that's probably not too good. That's an uneven power transaction.

mixedmedia

I don't care for the word "slut" used in a derogatory fashion. People use it to describe a woman's activity that is, frankly, none of their business. And I believe society is titillated by female promiscuity in a way that is different from male promiscuity, as you alluded to in your post, Miss Mango. Titillated the same way we are about fetishes and proclivities, but oh so much quicker to make character judgements because of it. I don't understand the double standard. I don't like it. And especially when the word "slut" is used by a woman to describe another.

I've had this conversation before, though.

But, it also bears mentioning that I enjoy being called a slut by one I am close to in regards to our own personal sexual relationship. I don't think it's really reclaiming the word...just having fun with it.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

FallenAvatar

The problem about the word is that it is centered around women only. I man that has man partners is a stud. A woman with many partners is a slut or a whore.

There's no fair justifcation for it.

__________________
Fetch me the spirit, the son and the father,
Tell them their pillar of faith has ascended.

pig

i have no problem with the term slut, used either in a friendly way in the context of a relationship, nor as a pejorative term. depending on how that pejorative is used; i personally use it for either gender, and only when someone is using sex to gain attention, in a situation where they don't actually want the "sex" itself. thus, say fuck all the people you want, be safe and have fun. don't fuck people so they'll pretend that they like you.

and although its a different topic that i won't get into here; i fully endorse the masculist movement as it pertains to the flip side of the feminist movement.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

mixedmedia

Well, of course, I always like your way of thinking, pigglet, but unfortunately most people don't think that way. "Slut" is generally used to define any woman who sleeps with a lot of men for whatever reason. And, if need be, folks will ascribe whatever psychological justification to it that they can. Often just the fact that she does it is enough, though.

Society resents women who sleep around. And that's about that.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Infinite_Loser

It's just a word. If it didn't bother you, you wouldn't care.

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

pig

yeah, people are fuckers.

true story: two years ago (or so) i met a girl down in charleston sc; we'll call her doe. her best friend was/is a guy named (for the purposes of this thread) tralgon. so, its tralgon's b-day and after meeting / swapping phone numbers i take off with some friends. call the next day. get together about two weeks later, the 3 of us go out drinking. early morning waffle house. go to my buddy's place, buddy is out of town, i have house to myself. so put tralgon into a bed, doe and i proceed to hook up. next morning tralgon comes down stairs to the tangle that is doe and i on the couch, and says "come on slut, i've got to get moving" to which i instinctively replied "what???" before i realized he wasn't talking to me.

so i don't generally use the term for women i don't know somewhat and have an idea of what they're doing, why they're doing it, etc. if i do use it for a woman i don't know, its usually said as a compliment. "who, that girl? she strikes me as just the type of slut i'd like to meet." i just can't equate promiscuity with bad. i mean, do you want a woman who knows the next step in the routine or not? preferably one who can correct your technique or open new doors. those are great women, and i salute all of you!

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

tisonlyi

My woman is my slut.

She loves it.

(They all have)

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

The_Jazz

Am I the only one hoping Commander doesn't find this thread?

"Slut" is a word like almost all others - connotation adds to meaning. In pigglet's story, I could argue that it wasn't necessarily a negative; I could also argue the opposite. It is entirely possible it had no meaning and was simply a throw-away line by an irritable, hung-over guy. As some of the women here demonstrated, the use can be incredibly complimentary.

For me, it is another word that I only use when quoting someone else.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

mixedmedia

well, in pigglet's story, tralgon and doe () are best friends so I imagine it to have been an off-color, but harmless, jibe...

it is solely the derogatory use of the word that I disapprove of...

pigglet may call me a slut any ol' time

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

kylere

IMHO There are no sluts, it is one of those christian-anglo-male creations they use to place themselves above others in direct contradiction of their religion.

However there are women who can be slutty, but I think of that as just a trashy-sexy rather than a sophisticated-sexy. And sexy is good regardless of origin, some of us just prefer the Robin from "How I met your mother" sexy to the Joy from "My name is Earl" sexy.

When it all comes down to it, removing words is a dead horse because in essence they are basically just thoughtcrime, and that is not prosecutable. Now if dumb women would stop sleeping with men dumb enough to call them sluts, that would fix the problem in a few generations

pig

oh mixed, i take it on faith that you can strut your slut with the best of them. i think you might make me soil myself if i ever heard you say that

in fact, although it might be a little threadjackey, but tralgon and doe were best friends and sort of fucked up in a way. tralgon had recently come out as bi (he's now full fledged gay i think) and i think doe was originally trying to hook me up with him, or they were scouting for a 3-way. i've got pierced ears and carry a purse sometimes, so its an understandable guess. it ended up that i only wanted to get frisky with her; it's entirely possible that tralgon was a little pissed that i went for doe at all. he's a good guy, but he does have a little bit of the stereotypical catty gay guy thing going on.

(back to thread) so it might not have been entirely friendly, as all good friends do, they had conversations with barbs in them.

regardless, i'm just saying that sometimes the word is appropriate, and i don't think it quite carries the kind of offensive status as something like 'nigger' or 'spic' or the like. frankly, i'm still a little bit miffed that i can't say 'fag' or 'gay' anymore. damn it, i grew up in the 80's!

so i'm keeping slut, but being selective about how i use it.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

World's King

Whore.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

pig

as an aside, the first thing i thought when i saw this thread was "Binwallah." I think shani might be the only other tfp'er to get that joke though.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

mixedmedia

Prude.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

pig

Bitches! You're all Bitches!

now, back to the slut thing: if we got rid of slut, we'd invent another word for it. it would evolve to have the same connotations; some people feel the need to get angry at people that are having more better sex than they are. and on top of that, if other people are having more better sex and wantonly enjoying it; that's just not to be tolerated even for one tiny instant! so while they quietly masturbate into their mothers socks or something, they curse those that delight in seminal explosions of delight betwixt their reruns of magnum pi and saved by the bell. i mean, the nerve!

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

mixedmedia

personally, I think the word does carry a similarly offensive status when used in a pejorative sense...but like 'nigger' and 'spic' can be innocuous or, at least, not hateful depending on the situation and the people exchanging them...

It's when people judge and lord over others with their use of the word that I object to its use. And the fact that so many people approve of its legitimacy as a way of describing women who may have more sex than the average - that just bothers me. There is an obvious double standard...and the implication of shame, for women, hearkens back to puritan times. It also implies that women shouldn't need or enjoy sex as much as men.

I take exception to these tired old ideas.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

pig

and well you should, take exception that is. i mean, its you, your body and your fucking habits and predilections. i don't think anyone who has passed through highschool can argue about the double standard; it exists. i do think its disappearing these days, but it's still there. then there's the flipside, where males are tacitly encouraged to fuck anything that moves to prove their manhood. also a bad image. i think everyone just needs to listen to more george michaels songs.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

ShaniFaye

I know this is a thread jack but I really wanna thank pigglet for my first real laugh this week

Zingelbert Bembledack! Yingybert Dambleban! Zangelbert Bingledack! Wingelbert Humptyback! Slut Bunwalla!

As far as the term slut goes.....I have long been annoyed that a woman can enjoy sex and have many partners and be considered a slut but a man is sometimes judged manly by their high numbers. Its not near as offensive to me as the word cunt though

and yeah, so its a word and Im offended by it....so what?

many many words are offensive to many many people and I dont "need to get over it"

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

pig

...Jerry Dorsey...no go back go back.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

spectre

Cake or death?

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

james t kirk

Getting back to the thread, I despise the negative connotations to the word. I find those who use it in a negative light are often insecure about their own abililities, or more accurately inabilities as a lover. Men even in this day and age are very intimidated by sexually experienced and sexually skilled women.

As far as the word itself goes, certain words identify as masculine, others feminine. For example, you wouldn't call a woman a "creep" or a "jerk", or a "bastard" as those are pretty much reserved for males. Likewise, "bitch" "whore" and "slut" tend to be identified as strictly female. As such, when I hear the word being used, it most likely being aimed at a female and usually (though not always) in a derogatory way. (Red Hot Chilli Peppers being an exception that comes to mind.)

Therefore, when I hear the word I usually react against it. (And to be honest, I hear women using it somewhat more than men - women are often far more judgemental with other women than men are with women). I often think, well, what is a slut? How do you define a slut? A woman who enjoys sex and is not afraid to seek it out or accept the opportunity should it arise? Sounds fine to me.

Truth be told, that's actually what I want in a woman.

I've never been one to appreciate judgement of people's sexuality. (Lest I be judged for mine.)

Miss Mango

True 'nuf. I meant it as a concept though. Honestly I suspect that the idea of the slut was more-or-less invented by men in order to support such institutions as arranged marriage and to enforce the gender roles of the past.

I don't think that's immutable. I think this is something that can change with time and civil evolution. I mean, people don't really begrudge men who sleep around(as long as a rigid relationship isn't established)...
Hell, guys who get a lot of booty are actually less prone to insecurity, more prone to be confidence. And that trait enhances life in all areas. Why couldn't this dynamic work for women?

pig

mango, read the rest of my posts; you'll see that i agree. i think it can and it should and slowly, it is. whether it was "created by men" or not is going to be tough to prove; i personally suspect it arose based on a common social attitude prevalent in both men and women; an attitude based on patriarchal social structures which made sense a few hundred years ago. we just don't adapt very quickly to things like logic when it hits us in the gullet of social roles. or so i think.

edit: and spec i just knew you were good people....and do you want tea?

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Ourcrazymodern?

So slut joins nigger among the words we may not say. Will we all be silent, eventually? Mind-to-mind communication would abrogate our individual packaging.

Miss Mango, you must think what you want, but you must not wish to throw words away!

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

mixedmedia

Use them all you want. It is about the mind behind the words more than the words themselves. Who here has said that you can't say them? But rather, may we not progress to a point where we don't think to say to them? Why hold onto ignorance? Are words more important than progress?

...and Mango, pigglet didn't say this, I did.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

pig

but hey mixed, i'll back your play on that statement. hold up, i did back it up. it's a strange thing, i almost made a jokey joke slut joke, but it so doesn't fit you that i can't bring myself to.

as with most of these things, i think the only thing that will actually cause any dent in stopping it, and the thoughts behind it, is one person at at time, displaying our disapproval of such sentiments and the rationale behind them.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

MrFriendly

Yeah, not a word I would say to a girls face, even in jest.

I might describe a girl to someone else as "a bit of a slut", in the context that she's someone that uses sex to get what she wants or manipulate people.

By the same token I refer guys who are of the same ilk or do some pretty low things just to get sex as a 'slease bag'.

But it's more of a slight against them as a person as apposed to how sexually active they are.

Honestly I don't care how much sex people get or how many partners they whip through, guy or girl, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'm the polar opposite to people who get around, and I don't feel abstaining makes me any more or less of a person, mainly because I just feel it's an important facet of who I am. So by that logic it doesn't bother me if someone sleeps around a lot, and to be perfectly honest, it's none of my business. If they want to share their experiences then I'll listen.

What I basically can't stand are cunts. People who use sex to manipulate other people, or people who lie or cheat just to get it. I also don't usually think much of people who think the amount of sex they have or the amount of partners they've gone through is some sort of measure of character or some how makes them better than anyone else. It's just sex. Ultimately, it's just one aspect of your life that means shit all if you haven't got the other aspects in order.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on it :-)

__________________
You are not a slave

JumpinJesus

How do we eliminate thoughts we deem unacceptable? And who's "we"? Will there be a committee to determine the acceptability of thoughts and then an executive force that will fan out amongst members of society to systematically eliminate those thoughts? How will they accomplish this?

I'm not sure I like this idea of proposing the elimination of thoughts and words of which we disapprove. It seems a little...Orwellian, don't you think?

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

pig

oh shizzle my nizzle, cause only the jj-vizzle can keep it so real. now, you're taking me out of context, so i'll break this down (like a fraction). 'we' in this case would be those of us who don't like wimmins being mischaracterized as dirty for being sexually active. and no, there won't be a committee; other than little committees like this one where we can all sit around and decide what we can agree on. its what we do. i mean, we decide certain things we like or don't like; things that are rational or aren't. we then decide to stick up for it. we then try to convince others. but if the idea doesn't catch, it doesn't catch. so yes, i'm talking about elimination of thoughts, so to speak, but only if everyone else agrees that it should be changed. sort of like we all pretty much agree that wimmins can wear pants to work.

/so glad you're here; now i'm working on a c:a post. i've been bizzy for a bit with real life stuff, but i'm a working on it. c:a will take some time to resurrect if we can do it at all.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

analog

Words are words. Words are only credible as insults when you acknowledge that you feel victimized by them.

For example:

This chick called me "fatty" because I have a little bit of a belly (that I'm losing, btw). This was in response to me saying she's being overly worried about her friends who'd spent the night over my friend's apartment many times in the past after a night of drinking.

She thought it would be a good retaliation to call me fatty. Like I give a shit. I smiled nicely and told her I can lose weight but there's no cure for being a stupid cunt.

Amazing how her word was meant as an insult, and I didn't allow her to victimize me, but me calling her a stupid cunt practically set her into a rage. And no, I didn't respond to her name-calling with more name-calling because I felt insulted, I did it because I wanted to turn it around back on her, to show her how hurtful it can be.

Hell if I cared, though. That skank.

mixedmedia

I'll say it again: it's not the words, it's the intent.

You may find it just fine and dandy to characterize women who dress a certain way or have X number of sexual encounters as sluts, but I disagree with those assessments. Why the hell not speak out about it? Since when am I obliged to approve of someone's ignorance? And I'll be damned if I'll ever find myself approving of it to "protect words."

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Glory's Sun

hrmm

I like sluts. When someone calls a girl a slut.. I ask for her number.

Big fucking deal seriously. Slut, Bitch, Cunt, Manwhore whatever. People will call people what they will. If you get rid of all of the negative connotations of certains words, what will they be replaced with?? People need to learn to let things roll off their back. You call me a cunt.. so what? Is it really going to affect my life that a person called me a cunt or a slut? If it does then perhaps some self examination is in order.

mixedmedia

No, it doesn't really affect me or my life. And I have been called a slut in a judgemental and derogatory way.

What I don't understand is resistance to changing the way we judge women for their sexual behavior. You say you like sluts and that's great, but let's get real and admit that women are usually labeled as such in a way that says "this person is of a lower character than me" as if they were a thief or a liar.

I don't purport trying to strike the word from our vocabulary. That's not realistic. It just irks me that we're so quick to fall back on these tired, old ideas about women. And it's different from the manwhore thing. A man doesn't get that label until he's exhibited behavior that seems to warrant it. A woman can garner the label slut simply for the clothes she walks out of the house in or the way she acts. It's just stupid. It's gossipy and I don't see anything wrong with encouraging people to get past it.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

JustJess

It's not about the word slut.... it's about the perception society has of someone labelled as a slut. If women who were more sexually active than societally accepted preset norms were called "buggaboos" instead... then this thread would be called "Buggaboos".

What we want to change is the perception that women shouldn't be having as much fun with sex, or as much sex, as men.

Go watch "This Film Is Not Yet Rated"... we've been watching it a bit, and it really comes down to this societal perception of women's sexuality as deviant. Example: "American Pie", he can fuck a pie showing his ass, or any horror movie with really disturbing violence sequences are okay. "Boys Don't Cry", they can't show a woman getting pleasure from oral sex - although no details are shown. It seems that anything other than missionary style sex is deviant to the MPAA.

To me... this illustrates the disconnect in typical perception of human sexuality as it relates to our patriarchal society. As stated above... men are encouraged to widen their sexual horizons - a threesome with two hot chicks? Great! 60 women? Impressive! But anything that doesn't fulfill a heterosexual male's fantasy is wrong. Two women? Hot. Two men? Disgusting. Experienced woman? Slut.

This issue is part of the greater evolution needed in our perceptions. Straight white males still hold the most power, and their stereotypical perceptions color all of our society's norms. What we want... is to modify those expectations and perceptions.

It's not a word. It's a social construct. It needs to be deconstructed.

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

Glory's Sun

well in my book.. which is quite long.. a slut is a slut. It doesn't matter what gender category they fall under. I understand the double standard but I've never held a woman to a lower standard because she's in charge of her sexuality and is having fun.

So while you can want people to change their views, and get passed a certain ideal; it's doubtful that it will ever take place. Humans are a silly jealous bunch and will call each other names till the end.

Also, I think in most cases, the easiest way to change this behavior is to ignore it. You call a girl a slut and she just smiles and ignores you and continues to have her fun.. and it will eventually sink in.

mixedmedia

People get past stupid, ignorant ideas all the time. It's called progress.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Glory's Sun

Sure people get passed ideas all the time and then they replace them with new stupid, ignorant ideas. It's the way of life.

There will always be a certain group or set of individuals who hold on to the ignorance.

How can they do this? Well tbh, it's their choice and their freedom to do so. They may be scorned by society, but in most cases, that holds little water when it comes down to it.

While I'd like to see the association with the word at least changed to not being a double standard, I'm firm in my belief that it just won't happen any time soon.

mixedmedia

Perhaps...but I really don't get your argument. Are you saying that I should just shut up? Not bother?

It seems you're arguing that no good comes from progress.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Glory's Sun

I'm just saying that progress while good is never fully complete.

So instead of getting pissy about a fucking word. Ignore the douche and do what you're doing. Things will progress with or without him/her.