Penn and Teller call Bullshit on Circumcision (NSFW) - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Halx · 04-26-2007, 08:44 PM

Let's get this debate going again.

The video is a cringer. It basicly says that circumcision as a standard procedure, is a farce.

I agree with it. I think circumcision is useless and damages an otherwise great penis.

LoganSnake · 04-26-2007, 08:52 PM

Agreed. I am openly outspoken about it and will start an argument with anyone who tries to tell me that it's important for anything other than a religious tradition. Bullshit.

KellyC · 04-26-2007, 11:15 PM

I just watched this video a few days ago. Good lord it sounds painful for the babies.

In the video, it says that the foreskin is rolled back during penetration forming "bumps" to provide further stimulation to the walls of the vagina in the same manner as a ribbed condom. It correlates with an article I read a while ago claiming that there's a greater ratio of women achieving orgasm from having sex with uncut men than cut men. Can any one else verify this?

Oh, I just saw this article posted in another forum about how circumcision helps protect against HIV. I'm skeptical of it though. How exactly does it help? The article doesn't explain...

http://iht.com/articles/2007/04/15/news/aids.php?page=1

Quote:

By Donald G. McNeil Jr. Published: April 15, 2007

Read the next sentence aloud, and watch all the men around you involuntarily cross their legs:

How do you persuade a grown man to get circumcised?

Answer: It's not easy, even in America, where most males are circumcised shortly after birth.

Now that three clinical trials in Africa have shown that circumcision helps protect men against contracting HIV and the World Health Organization has endorsed it, public health doctors elsewhere - including in New York City - are contemplating whether to recommend it. Then comes the difficult part - how to sell the idea.

Unfortunately, the data from Africa does not translate well. Those trials were of heterosexual men in countries where the virus is everywhere, education about safe sex is practically nonexistent, and condoms get in the way of the need to father children.

In the United States, the AIDS epidemic is very different. The highest risk groups are men having sex with men (whether openly or covertly or even forcibly - in prison rapes, for example), people who share needles, and women who, often unknowingly, have sex with high-risk men. Although AIDS has been killing people in America for 25 years, it has not turned into a generalized epidemic like it has in Africa. Sex education, condoms, abstinence, antiretroviral drugs and the fear of death have concentrated it mostly in small pockets of the population.

And for most of those people, circumcision probably would not do much good. It might help protect gay men who are exclusively "tops" - that is, they have only penetrative anal sex, never receptive. It presumably would help protect men having sex with infected women. It might help protect women who choose circumcised men - but even that was not proved in the African studies, which had to be stopped early because the benefit for men was so glaring.

Because of these unknowables, no domestic medical authority, from the New York City Health Department to the American Urological Association, has a policy on adult circumcision yet.

And, besides, there hasn't been a groundswell of demand.

"We haven't gotten a lot of calls," said Noel Alicea, a spokesman for Gay Men's Health Crisis, an HIV/AIDS support network.

"Not a one," said Tokes Osubu, executive director of Gay Men of African Descent.

"A few," said Mark McLaurin, executive director of the New York State Black Gay Network. "The first ones wanted to make sure that it wasn't going to be mandatory. And then there were others who said 'Tell me more - how much does this reduce my risk?"' McLaurin said he would advise most gay men to "hold off until we have more data." But, he added, "for someone who was predominantly or exclusively a top, and said he was really having a hard time reducing his risk by practicing safe sex - I'd have a hard time recommending against it." But, he quickly added, he was certain that few men in his network would want it. "We've had a hard time recruiting black and Latino men even for vaccine trials," he said. "Because of everything from Tuskegee on up," he explained - referring to the notorious medical experiment in which black men with syphilis were left untreated for decades - many black Americans mistrust the medical establishment.

In Africa, it is relatively easy to talk men into getting circumcised, said Daniel Halperin, an AIDS researcher at the Harvard School of Public Health who has interviewed hundreds of African men about sex, AIDS and local customs.

Some tribes circumcise teenagers to welcome them to full manhood.

Many men who cannot get enough water to bathe regularly think foreskins are unhygienic. And some, he said, "say circumcised men get all the women" because of a widespread belief that, with slightly lessened sensation, they can make love longer.

(Circumcision's effect on sex is a white-hot issue in the United States for the small but vocal anticircumcision lobby. The lobby's main focus is on advice to parents of baby boys, but it has offshoot groups, like the "uncuts" who insist that sex with uncircumcised men is superior, and the "foreskin restoration movement," which utilizes tape, small weights and parental resentment.)

For adult men, circumcision takes about 30 minutes, said Dr. Craig Niederberger, chief of male reproductive surgery at the University of Illinois at Chicago. It is an outpatient procedure and, like dental work, can be done with local injections of Novocain.

"But with many men," he added, "if you use the words 'scalpel' and 'penis' in the same sentence, they say, 'Put me to sleep!' So then we do it under general anesthesia."

waltert · 04-26-2007, 11:45 PM

I'm circumcised. I sure as heck dont remember it, or feel like I'm somehow short-changed. everything seems to operate well...so meh.

its just another religious custom that may have had some theorized benefit at the time. There are plenty of religious customs that when looked at analytically, are irrational.

ItWasMe · 04-27-2007, 12:36 AM

I had all girls, but I wouldn't have wanted that done to a boy, if I'd had one. My grandmother didn't have any of her 4 sons cut. None of them have had any of the 'severe problems' cited by medical 'experts.'

Crack · 04-27-2007, 02:29 AM

fore is more!

This shall be my mantra. I love my foreskin, I mean come on... if I didn't have it, where would I keep my spare key and buttons I find every so often?

ASU2003 · 04-27-2007, 04:35 AM

There are a few states which stopped paying for the procedure for poor mothers on medicaid now, but I'm surprised it hasn't happened nationwide. I think the only reason it contiinues is because doctors can make a few extra c-notes and religious tradition makes you look like you are against islam or judism if you question it.

Penn and Teller do a great job, and I wish they would broadcast this (or at least a PG version without the restoration stuff) on PBS.

pig · 04-27-2007, 04:59 AM

i'm still pretty much in favor of circumcision. perhaps its just because my boy is cut; and if a 'lil pigglet ever gets thrown out from the loamy crest of an unfortunate maiden whom i have thrown myself upon, well that little pigglet is going to look as much like old dad as i can make him.

as for other reasons, the wiki article gives a few decent indications that there may, in fact, be some health benefits to the procedure. i can understand the genital mutilation arguments; i don't find them overwhelmingly compelling inside sociological context, but i can certainly understand that viewpoint.

Mister Coaster · 04-27-2007, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crack

fore is more!

This shall be my mantra. I love my foreskin, I mean come on... if I didn't have it, where would I keep my spare key and buttons I find every so often?

Oh man, I can't help but cringe at the fact that I'm on Crack's side of this debate.

And since we are talking about sexuality here, I couldn't imagine jerking off or getting a hand-job without my foreskin.

Push-Pull · 04-27-2007, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltert

I'm circumcised. I sure as heck dont remember it, or feel like I'm somehow short-changed. everything seems to operate well...so meh.

I'm of the same mindset. While I have wondered what it would be like with a foreskin, I don't miss it or worry about it. Everything functions correctly and has given me (and a few lucky women) quite a bit of pleasure over the years.

The only advantage I can think of for being cut (and this only applies to the small percentage of guys who are too lazy to wash, so please don't take this as a blanket statement) is the lack of, ehr, "cheese". Ewww.

LoganSnake · 04-27-2007, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

And since we are talking about sexuality here, I couldn't imagine jerking off or getting a hand-job without my foreskin.

Exactly. I have no idea how the cut guys do it. None of my boys will be cut, if I have any.

1010011010 · 04-27-2007, 06:22 AM

The problem with anti-circumcision testimonials is that they're self-selected.
I have a friend who was circumcised as an adult. When I found out about it, I asked if there was any difference before and after. He hadn't noticed anything. I'd wager most guys with a foreskin are happy with their equipment and most guys without a foreskin are happy with their equipment.

Having been through a big long debate about this subject elsewhere which I have no interest in repeating... It's right about neutral as for as rational justifications go (I.E. medical risk/benefit analysis).

So you're left with aesthetics and tradition... making it near purely a matter of opinion.

ASU2003 · 04-27-2007, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1010011010

So you're left with aesthetics and tradition... making it near purely a matter of opinion.

But whose opinion is it? It certainly isn't the baby boy's opinion, but it's the parents who are trying to do what they feel is right. And when doctors, nurses and other family members are for it, and think that it needs to be surgectly modified, it is hard to say no and consider what the owner of that foreskin would want to do with it. Plus, you hardly ever heard the good parts of having a foreskin or why it is there prior to the Internet. And I doubt my parents asked the doctor "why is having a foreskin a good thing?".

The only benefit about getting it done as a baby is that it beats getting it done when you are 8-12 years old like in some parts of the world. But that gets into the religious reasons for getting it done, which I don't like. If you wait until you are an adult to get it done, then it is your decision and hopefully it isn't a cosmetic one to make you look like other people who live by you, or because you got teased growing up. That will probably be less likely now that the number of uncircumcised boys is increasing, and if 50% of them aren't cut, it is hard to pick on just one or two.

World's King · 04-27-2007, 09:37 AM

I've just never been a fan of the turtle neck look...

tooth · 04-27-2007, 09:38 AM

I'm the father of two boys who are both un-cut. Aside from ancient religious beliefs, the only other valid reason for elective circumcision is cleanliness. Regular baths take care of that.

Social conformity is not a valid reason for medical procedures. In today's world circumcision amounts to nothing more than cosmetic surgery for infants.

unnamedplayer · 04-27-2007, 01:35 PM

I see someone else has already touched on this but

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070223/D8NF543O3.html

As for how it helps according to the article

Quote:

Circumcision has long been suspected of reducing men's susceptibility to HIV infection because the cells in the foreskin of the penis are especially vulnerable to the virus.

highthief · 04-27-2007, 02:55 PM

Why is it the people who never got circumcised are the most shrill proponents of banning it?

You know, if being circumcised was bad, wouldn't all us cut guys be jumping up and down demanding it be banned?

At the end of the day, the only medical evidence for or against circumcision tends to favour being cut.

Ilow · 04-27-2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

Why is it the people who never got circumcised are the most shrill proponents of banning it?

You know, if being circumcised was bad, wouldn't all us cut guys be jumping up and down demanding it be banned?

At the end of the day, the only medical evidence for or against circumcision tends to favour being cut.

A rather good point, I'd say. As is the reduced HIV risk, which tends to generally supported by reliable, unbiased sources.

Halx · 04-27-2007, 06:18 PM

Show me a medical study that shows that being cut is good and I'll show you one that says the opposite.

On the other hand, what kind of positive can you gain from removing part of your body? Evolution-wise, it makes no sense.

1010011010 · 04-27-2007, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

At the end of the day, the only medical evidence for or against circumcision tends to favour being cut.

This is true. However, the net advantage of circumcision isn't very large. Considering it's unnecessary, the marginal health benefit is insignificant.

The only interesting topic on this subject is, as ASU2003 has pointed out, whether it's right for parents to be allowed to make aesthetic or religious choices for children when that choice doesn't seem to serve the interests of the child.

Grasshopper Green · 04-27-2007, 06:42 PM

I didn't watch the above video, but I watched something I'll guess was similar in a Human Sexuality class in college. After it was done, I swore I'd never cut a son of mine.

Hubby is circ'd but agreed that there was no valid reason to get it done. If people want to get their son cut...fine with me. I chose not to, and I don't have any regrets.

aberkok · 04-27-2007, 07:20 PM

I watched the video and agree with it. Seeing that the American Academy of Pediatrics doesn't recommend it pretty much sums it up.

Apparently washing the penis (for basic hygiene) and wearing a condom is too difficult in the minds of these sadists. Cut it off instead!!

ASU2003 · 04-27-2007, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilow

As is the reduced HIV risk, which tends to generally supported by reliable, unbiased sources.

I wouldn't go that far in saying that they are unbiased. I think they stop the studies early because they have the results they are looking for, not because in 5 years the numbers will still be 50% higher HIV rates for the uncircumcised. And it was something like out of 5000 guys 40 uncircumcised guys got HIV and 20 circumcised ones came down with it. And we don't know how many of the women these men slept with who were infected either. So, does the foreskin make catching HIV easier or were the uncircumcised guys having more sex, riskier sex and being unlucky in picking HIV positive partners?
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...Statement.html

Now having said that, I've seen better explainations of how HIV infects through the mucous membranes (inner foreskin) easier than through external skin, but at the same time, that researcher thought that the better course of action was to develop a cream to protect both the male and female from infection through the inner foreskin and vagina.
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...ticlekey=79688

A few years ago, they 'said' that the foreskin was responsible for cervical cancer, but that excuse won't work as well anymore since there is a pretty good vaccine against HPV now. And once there is a vaccine against HIV, they will have to figure out something else.

Charlatan · 04-27-2007, 07:48 PM

I am circumsized but did not have my son cut. I could not see any real reason to do it to him other than conformity.

Soap and water take care of the cleanliness issue.
I am an atheist so that takes care of the religion thing.
Safe sex takes care of the HIV thing.

If he wants to be cut, it can be his decision.

pig · 04-28-2007, 04:22 AM

so how do you feel about infant intersex surgery?

highthief · 04-28-2007, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Show me a medical study that shows that being cut is good and I'll show you one that says the opposite.

On the other hand, what kind of positive can you gain from removing part of your body? Evolution-wise, it makes no sense.

Neither do tattoos and piercings, yet there are millions of evolutionary deadends lining up to get it done.

As for the medical studies - OK, give me a little bit and I bet the studies weigh more heavily on the side of pro-circumcision than anti.

james t kirk · 04-28-2007, 11:35 AM

I'm cut and quite happy that it was done to me.

Sorry all you au natural guys, but I have had many a fine young woman squeal with delite (and relief) at the fact that I am a convertable. In fact, I have even known several women (in the carnal sense) who have told me that they refuse to give oral to a man who is uncircumsized. My last GF was very vocal about this. She had fellated more than a few cocks in her life (she was a champ at it) and said that she never sucked an uncut man's cock that didn't smell - even right out of the shower. I've had more than one woman tell me the same thing in fact.

I have only met one woman who has ever said that she prefered uncut and she was from Poland where all the men are uncut pretty much.

The kid in the video may be crying now, but in 16 or so years when the women are sucking on that cut cock, he won't even remember (or think about) that moment when he was first born. I say, help the kid in every way to get all the blow jobs in life he can.

Halx · 04-28-2007, 11:53 AM

So what you're saying is, you're trendy.

loquitur · 04-28-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Show me a medical study that shows that being cut is good and I'll show you one that says the opposite.

On the other hand, what kind of positive can you gain from removing part of your body? Evolution-wise, it makes no sense.

Except that tonsils get removed all the time. A friend who his an ENT doc explained that they are almost like a toilet, accumulating all the shit that enters the body through the mouth. So evolutionarily they aren't well thought out, but there they are. So that argument doesn't fly. There might be others, but that's not it.

ASU2003 · 04-28-2007, 05:44 PM

Altoids or other mints would probably do a good job in covering up the taste if girls don't like it. And girls have their own scent and taste down there, so do most girls never get oral sex? I think a big part of sex would be the smells and taste of your partner.

Lasereth · 04-28-2007, 05:54 PM

Uncircumsized penises are absolutely disgusting. There's no way you could get it totally clean. Your penis looks like a slug coming out of its shell with the skin flaps still on there. If I have a boy I'm making 100% sure he's circumsized simply because I don't want him going through life with something that repulsive. PS: no harm meant to anyone who is uncircumsized. It's not like you had a choice.

james t kirk · 04-28-2007, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

Altoids or other mints would probably do a good job in covering up the taste if girls don't like it. And girls have their own scent and taste down there, so do most girls never get oral sex? I think a big part of sex would be the smells and taste of your partner.

No arguement there.

God only knows, I love giving a woman oral - with one catch - Good Hygene. That's not to say no smell, just needs to be clean.

Altoids?

That might burn!

Ilow · 04-28-2007, 06:17 PM

Q: Why do women prefer circumcized men?

A: They can't resist anything that's 10% off.

Seriously, where are all the women to weigh in on this? I know they don't have a wang, but they do have, er, hands on experience.

Halx · 04-28-2007, 09:23 PM

I am not really interested in hearing more blather about style. If your dick smells, you need to learn how to wash it. If a girl wont suck your dick, you need a better fishing line. My dick doesn't smell and I've never had a problem with a girl refusing to take it. Really, the superficial arguments against foreskin only strengthen the idea that such decisions should be made later in life, not when the child has no basis of opinion.

You don't get your baby a nose job, lipo, or breast implants; why a circumcision?

Any parent worrying about their child fitting in based on the look of their PENIS needs to check their parent license at the door. If you can't prepare your child to be strong in life and would rather just chop a piece of him off so you don't have to, you're disgusting.

Medically, once again, in the video you have citations from two medical studies saying two different things. You have medical professionals saying two different things. Call it a fuckin draw.

If all things were equal, wouldn't the pain that it inflicts on your baby be enough to prevent you from having your child cut?

tisonlyi · 04-29-2007, 01:08 AM

Men who are circumcised or uncircumcised as a child or adult protest under an old psychosis that goes along the lines of:

I made a choice (or i had it made for me).
It is shown that I could have made a better choice.
I am given the choice again; I make same choice again because I don't like to be wrong.

e.g.

I buy a Volvo.
A friend in the trade shows me, for the reasons I need a car I should have bought something else. For financial and practical logic, I made the wrong choice.
I'm asked if I'm happy with my purchase.
I say yes.

It's not about better or worse. It's about wrong or right. Black or white. This is a Zero Grey Area.

End of story.

Anyone who watches that video and sees the agony that child is forced to undergo, sees the suffering and hears the screams. Sees the shock and trauma and STILL thinks it's a good idea to go slicing off a perfectly good part of a baby... Needs urgent assistance in humanity.

Anyone in need of an argument over HIV transmission and std's, etc. need look no further than Western Europe. Our rates of infection, US rates of infection; Which are higher? Do we routinely slice up baby penis?

HIV? BS argument. (21k people infected in the UK total - pop. ~65 million. 315 new heterosexual cases, YES JUST 315, through heterosexual sex in 2003. Whole other story. BBC)
Urinary tract infections... yeah right. I'm always coming down with them. never out of the clinic... *rolls eye*

blah blah blah.

As for the argument of aesthetics (sight or smell) and fitting in, well... Maybe docs should be going in and slicing off/cutting out the traces of inner labia and those structures which give rise to them in later life... seeing as it's all the rage these days.

Anyone in favour of cutting up a baby's pussy for aesthetic reasons? Taking a scalpel to nascent genitalia and tearing out that which is deemed less than pleasing to the eye? Hey! It'll save her having to do it when she's older.

They could even implant some slow release, dehumanising perfume of the parents' choosing at the same time!

WIN WIN WIN!

It is extremely painful. It is unnecessary. The baby cannot choose.

Adults choosing for their infants and children to unnecessarily undergo extreme pain is generally referred to as child abuse.

Slap yourself. And again.

Get it now? Good.

pig · 04-29-2007, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigglet

so how do you feel about infant intersex surgery?

babies are altered for aesthetic reasons fairly often, if my understanding is correct from friends who work in delivery rooms. i can understand the genital mutilation argument on this issue, but its nothing to get all high and mighty about. removal of the foreskin doesn't change your dick that much; to compare it the genital removal rituals performed in africa or the like where they cut out the entire fucking clitoris or more is just asinine. as for the baby; have y'all ever been around babies? the ones i've been around have been fucking crying factories. my opinion that the circumcision / non-circumcision decision isn't the most paramount issue our children face isn't going to be swayed by a video of a baby crying; purely emotional play there.

this whole heated argument thing seems rather ridiculous to me; who gives a shit if your johnson is cut or not? let's see...we've got the uncut guys detailing how its a satanic barbaric ritual which clearly alters the course the child's fragile psyche will take thoughout life (he could have been the goddamn president!) and the cut guys saying it either does matter, or in some cases its apparently fucking disgusting. gee...so we're reinforcing our own self-images. whoop de do. and in the process making a lot of, in my opinion, fairly hyperbolic dumbass comments about each other.

how do y'all feel if a parent elects to have something like a hairlip or birthmark removed when an infant is young? i was going to say cleft pallette work, but i think the old cleft pallette is a little more serious than the scope of dick surgery we're talking about. still, i don't know. i had a friends who left ear never fully unfolded when he was an infant, and his parents arranged to have it juked around with using a scapel and such to unfold it...for purely ascethic reasons. the guy was never upset at his parents for altering his natural appearance. i mean, maybe we're all sociologically brainwashed, but the fact that a bunch of guys who are cut...replying in this thread saying that we don't feel mentally and emotionally scarred...should be a reasonable indication that its not the heinous procedure that the uncut chaps are making it out to be.

i've written too much about this and now need more coffee.

Lizra · 04-29-2007, 04:42 AM

Right on pigglet!

When you have a baby boy....make your choice. I choose cut, I like his father's circumcised look and feel very much. And yes....babies are crying factories

boys, girls, cut, uncut.

Charlatan · 04-29-2007, 05:47 AM

I am astounded at the emotion this seems to evoke.

I am also astounded at the casual attitude some appear to have with regards to cutting their kids.

Halx · 04-29-2007, 05:54 AM

That's kinda gross.

"It's my baby and I can do what I want with it."

You try any other needless cosmetic surgery and you'll not only get declined, you'll have CPS on your ass if you do it yourself.

Now, I'm not trying to dictate what you can do with YOUR life, however greenlighting a surgery that is purely cosmetic is only furthering this vain culture.

Grasshopper Green · 04-29-2007, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilow

Q: Why do women prefer circumcized men?

A: They can't resist anything that's 10% off.

Seriously, where are all the women to weigh in on this? I know they don't have a wang, but they do have, er, hands on experience.

I'm married, so I'm not selecting partners anymore...but if I were, having an uncircumsized penis wouldn't matter one iota to me. Any woman who wouldn't give a guy a blowjob because of his "natural scent" due to having a foreskin is a fucking hypocrite if she has ever received oral sex.

04-26-2007, 08:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Penn and Teller call Bullshit on Circumcision (NSFW) Let's get this debate going again. The video is a cringer. It basicly says that circumcision as a standard procedure, is a farce. I agree with it. I think circumcision is useless and damages an otherwise great penis. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

04-26-2007, 08:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	Agreed. I am openly outspoken about it and will start an argument with anyone who tries to tell me that it's important for anything other than a religious tradition. Bullshit. __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

04-27-2007, 12:36 AM	#5 (permalink)
ItWasMe But You'll Never Prove It. Location: under your bed	I had all girls, but I wouldn't have wanted that done to a boy, if I'd had one. My grandmother didn't have any of her 4 sons cut. None of them have had any of the 'severe problems' cited by medical 'experts.' __________________ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez I bake cookies just so I can lick the bowl. ~ ItWasMe

04-27-2007, 02:29 AM	#6 (permalink)
Crack Misanthropic Location: Ohio! yay!	fore is more! This shall be my mantra. I love my foreskin, I mean come on... if I didn't have it, where would I keep my spare key and buttons I find every so often? __________________ Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex. ~Halx

04-27-2007, 04:59 AM	#8 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	i'm still pretty much in favor of circumcision. perhaps its just because my boy is cut; and if a 'lil pigglet ever gets thrown out from the loamy crest of an unfortunate maiden whom i have thrown myself upon, well that little pigglet is going to look as much like old dad as i can make him. as for other reasons, the wiki article gives a few decent indications that there may, in fact, be some health benefits to the procedure. i can understand the genital mutilation arguments; i don't find them overwhelmingly compelling inside sociological context, but i can certainly understand that viewpoint. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

04-26-2007, 11:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
waltert Insane	I'm circumcised. I sure as heck dont remember it, or feel like I'm somehow short-changed. everything seems to operate well...so meh. its just another religious custom that may have had some theorized benefit at the time. There are plenty of religious customs that when looked at analytically, are irrational.

04-27-2007, 04:35 AM	#7 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	There are a few states which stopped paying for the procedure for poor mothers on medicaid now, but I'm surprised it hasn't happened nationwide. I think the only reason it contiinues is because doctors can make a few extra c-notes and religious tradition makes you look like you are against islam or judism if you question it. Penn and Teller do a great job, and I wish they would broadcast this (or at least a PG version without the restoration stuff) on PBS.

04-27-2007, 06:22 AM	#12 (permalink)
1010011010 Psycho Location: Virginia Beach, VA	The problem with anti-circumcision testimonials is that they're self-selected. I have a friend who was circumcised as an adult. When I found out about it, I asked if there was any difference before and after. He hadn't noticed anything. I'd wager most guys with a foreskin are happy with their equipment and most guys without a foreskin are happy with their equipment. Having been through a big long debate about this subject elsewhere which I have no interest in repeating... It's right about neutral as for as rational justifications go (I.E. medical risk/benefit analysis). So you're left with aesthetics and tradition... making it near purely a matter of opinion. __________________ *Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions*

04-27-2007, 09:37 AM	#14 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	I've just never been a fan of the turtle neck look... __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

04-27-2007, 09:38 AM	#15 (permalink)
tooth Addict	I'm the father of two boys who are both un-cut. Aside from ancient religious beliefs, the only other valid reason for elective circumcision is cleanliness. Regular baths take care of that. Social conformity is not a valid reason for medical procedures. In today's world circumcision amounts to nothing more than cosmetic surgery for infants.

04-27-2007, 02:55 PM	#17 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	Why is it the people who never got circumcised are the most shrill proponents of banning it? You know, if being circumcised was bad, wouldn't all us cut guys be jumping up and down demanding it be banned? At the end of the day, the only medical evidence for or against circumcision tends to favour being cut. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

04-27-2007, 06:18 PM	#19 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Show me a medical study that shows that being cut is good and I'll show you one that says the opposite. On the other hand, what kind of positive can you gain from removing part of your body? Evolution-wise, it makes no sense. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

04-27-2007, 06:42 PM	#21 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	I didn't watch the above video, but I watched something I'll guess was similar in a Human Sexuality class in college. After it was done, I swore I'd never cut a son of mine. Hubby is circ'd but agreed that there was no valid reason to get it done. If people want to get their son cut...fine with me. I chose not to, and I don't have any regrets. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

04-27-2007, 07:20 PM	#22 (permalink)
aberkok “Wrong is right.” Location: toronto	I watched the video and agree with it. Seeing that the American Academy of Pediatrics doesn't recommend it pretty much sums it up. Apparently washing the penis (for basic hygiene) and wearing a condom is too difficult in the minds of these sadists. Cut it off instead!! __________________ !check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

04-27-2007, 07:48 PM	#24 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I am circumsized but did not have my son cut. I could not see any real reason to do it to him other than conformity. Soap and water take care of the cleanliness issue. I am an atheist so that takes care of the religion thing. Safe sex takes care of the HIV thing. If he wants to be cut, it can be his decision. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

04-28-2007, 04:22 AM	#25 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	so how do you feel about infant intersex surgery? __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

04-28-2007, 11:35 AM	#27 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	I'm cut and quite happy that it was done to me. Sorry all you au natural guys, but I have had many a fine young woman squeal with delite (and relief) at the fact that I am a convertable. In fact, I have even known several women (in the carnal sense) who have told me that they refuse to give oral to a man who is uncircumsized. My last GF was very vocal about this. She had fellated more than a few cocks in her life (she was a champ at it) and said that she never sucked an uncut man's cock that didn't smell - even right out of the shower. I've had more than one woman tell me the same thing in fact. I have only met one woman who has ever said that she prefered uncut and she was from Poland where all the men are uncut pretty much. The kid in the video may be crying now, but in 16 or so years when the women are sucking on that cut cock, he won't even remember (or think about) that moment when he was first born. I say, help the kid in every way to get all the blow jobs in life he can.

04-28-2007, 11:53 AM	#28 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	So what you're saying is, you're trendy. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

04-28-2007, 05:44 PM	#30 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	Altoids or other mints would probably do a good job in covering up the taste if girls don't like it. And girls have their own scent and taste down there, so do most girls never get oral sex? I think a big part of sex would be the smells and taste of your partner.

04-28-2007, 05:54 PM	#31 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	Uncircumsized penises are absolutely disgusting. There's no way you could get it totally clean. Your penis looks like a slug coming out of its shell with the skin flaps still on there. If I have a boy I'm making 100% sure he's circumsized simply because I don't want him going through life with something that repulsive. PS: no harm meant to anyone who is uncircumsized. It's not like you had a choice. __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

04-28-2007, 06:17 PM	#33 (permalink)
Ilow Junkie Location: Pats country	Q: Why do women prefer circumcized men? A: They can't resist anything that's 10% off. Seriously, where are all the women to weigh in on this? I know they don't have a wang, but they do have, er, hands on experience. __________________ "Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about" --Sam Harris

04-28-2007, 09:23 PM	#34 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I am not really interested in hearing more blather about style. If your dick smells, you need to learn how to wash it. If a girl wont suck your dick, you need a better fishing line. My dick doesn't smell and I've never had a problem with a girl refusing to take it. Really, the superficial arguments against foreskin only strengthen the idea that such decisions should be made later in life, not when the child has no basis of opinion. You don't get your baby a nose job, lipo, or breast implants; why a circumcision? Any parent worrying about their child fitting in based on the look of their PENIS needs to check their parent license at the door. If you can't prepare your child to be strong in life and would rather just chop a piece of him off so you don't have to, you're disgusting. Medically, once again, in the video you have citations from two medical studies saying two different things. You have medical professionals saying two different things. Call it a fuckin draw. If all things were equal, wouldn't the pain that it inflicts on your baby be enough to prevent you from having your child cut? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

04-29-2007, 01:08 AM	#35 (permalink)
tisonlyi Nothing	Men who are circumcised or uncircumcised as a child or adult protest under an old psychosis that goes along the lines of: I made a choice (or i had it made for me). It is shown that I could have made a better choice. I am given the choice again; I make same choice again because I don't like to be wrong. e.g. I buy a Volvo. A friend in the trade shows me, for the reasons I need a car I should have bought something else. For financial and practical logic, I made the wrong choice. I'm asked if I'm happy with my purchase. I say yes. It's not about better or worse. It's about wrong or right. Black or white. This is a Zero Grey Area. End of story. Anyone who watches that video and sees the agony that child is forced to undergo, sees the suffering and hears the screams. Sees the shock and trauma and STILL thinks it's a good idea to go slicing off a perfectly good part of a baby... Needs urgent assistance in humanity. Anyone in need of an argument over HIV transmission and std's, etc. need look no further than Western Europe. Our rates of infection, US rates of infection; Which are higher? Do we routinely slice up baby penis? HIV? BS argument. (21k people infected in the UK total - pop. ~65 million. 315 new heterosexual cases, YES JUST 315, through heterosexual sex in 2003. Whole other story. BBC) Urinary tract infections... yeah right. I'm always coming down with them. never out of the clinic... rolls eye blah blah blah. As for the argument of aesthetics (sight or smell) and fitting in, well... Maybe docs should be going in and slicing off/cutting out the traces of inner labia and those structures which give rise to them in later life... seeing as it's all the rage these days. Anyone in favour of cutting up a baby's pussy for aesthetic reasons? Taking a scalpel to nascent genitalia and tearing out that which is deemed less than pleasing to the eye? Hey! It'll save her having to do it when she's older. They could even implant some slow release, dehumanising perfume of the parents' choosing at the same time! WIN WIN WIN! It is extremely painful. It is unnecessary. The baby cannot choose. Adults choosing for their infants and children to unnecessarily undergo extreme pain is generally referred to as child abuse. Slap yourself. And again. Get it now? Good. __________________ "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

04-29-2007, 04:42 AM	#37 (permalink)
Lizra Insane Location: rural Indiana	Right on pigglet! When you have a baby boy....make your choice. I choose cut, I like his father's circumcised look and feel very much. And yes....babies are crying factories boys, girls, cut, uncut. __________________ Happy atheist

04-29-2007, 05:47 AM	#38 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I am astounded at the emotion this seems to evoke. I am also astounded at the casual attitude some appear to have with regards to cutting their kids. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

04-29-2007, 05:54 AM	#39 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	That's kinda gross. "It's my baby and I can do what I want with it." You try any other needless cosmetic surgery and you'll not only get declined, you'll have CPS on your ass if you do it yourself. Now, I'm not trying to dictate what you can do with YOUR life, however greenlighting a surgery that is purely cosmetic is only furthering this vain culture. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]